turning right: advice please

[audrey]

I'd appreciate some advice from more experienced cyclists. Situation
is this:

I'm at the head of a line of traffic [1] in the 'right turn only'
lane, waiting at the traffic lights to turn right. I'm positioned in
the centre of the lane. Lights go green, I move forward and wait for
suitable gap in on-coming traffic. This is a busy road, so it can
take a while. Gap appears, I turn right, car behind me sets off at
the same time and overtakes me as we both turn right. Car zooms past
me on the right.

This happens to me quite often. Particularly at the turn into local
supermarket, where presumably cars want to make sure they are be
ahead of me before the road we are turning into narrows shortly after
the junction. Who knows how their day might be ruined if they are
delayed by those valuable few seconds getting into the car park.

What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like this on
right turns?

Audrey


[1] because I got there first, not because I carried out some evil
cyclist trickery and overtook the poor waiting cars

--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

[David Martin]

On 15/6/04 11:12 am, in article ,
"audrey" > wrote:

> I'd appreciate some advice from more experienced cyclists. Situation
> is this:
>
> I'm at the head of a line of traffic [1] in the 'right turn only'
> lane, waiting at the traffic lights to turn right. I'm positioned in
> the centre of the lane. Lights go green, I move forward and wait for
> suitable gap in on-coming traffic. This is a busy road, so it can
> take a while. Gap appears, I turn right, car behind me sets off at
> the same time and overtakes me as we both turn right. Car zooms past
> me on the right.

> What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like this on
> right turns?

Move about three quarters of the way across the lane, enough to stop the car
passing on the right or the left.

Wait for the gap a bit further back so you are turning into the road on the
right hand edge of the turning circle. This leaves the car little room to
overtake.

This means not moving forward when the lights go green (or just a bike
length or so.) Basically you cut the corner a bit tighter..

...d

[Pete Biggs]

audrey wrote:
> What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like this on
> right turns?

I don't find that a problem on most roads as there's usually enough
overtaking room, but follow David's excllent advice for narrower roads (or
whenever it bothers you).

~PB

[audrey]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:21:10 +0100, David Martin
> wrote:

>On 15/6/04 11:12 am, in article ,
>"audrey" > wrote:
>
>> What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like this on
>> right turns?
>
>Move about three quarters of the way across the lane, enough to stop the car
>passing on the right or the left.
>
>Wait for the gap a bit further back so you are turning into the road on the
>right hand edge of the turning circle. This leaves the car little room to
>overtake.
>
>This means not moving forward when the lights go green (or just a bike
>length or so.) Basically you cut the corner a bit tighter..
>

thanks for the advice, David. I think I have been going too far
forward, and will try moving forward less, as well as the other things
you suggest. Thanks

and, going OT now, notes email addy and waves to Nice Man from the
Ancestral Homelands - actually my parents left Dundee before I was
born, but we visited so often and they talked about it so much, it
feels like 'home' even though I've never lived there.

Audrey

--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

[audrey]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:45:14 +0100, "Pete Biggs"
> wrote:

>audrey wrote:
>> What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like this on
>> right turns?
>
>I don't find that a problem on most roads as there's usually enough
>overtaking room, but follow David's excllent advice for narrower roads (or
>whenever it bothers you).
>
the trouble with this particular junction is the cars accelerate hard
to get past, so they are not stuck behind a bike on the narrow access
road for the few seconds it would take them to get into the car park.
It also bothers me On Principle, I think, because over taking at a
junction is A Bad Thing.

A

--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

[Fat Lad]

Yes, It is all about road position. I was taught this when training for
my motorbike license. You need to maintain your road position to prevent
being overtaken which means riding in the centre of the lane. This may
upset/delay others but it will stop you being squeezed off the road. I
do it now on a cycle when I'm approaching any difficult manoevres. I
feel safer and I'm ready with an appreciative wave or death stare as
appropriate to anybody effected.

==========================
Engerlund Engerlund we wuz robbed.



--

[Pete Biggs]

audrey wrote:

> the trouble with this particular junction is the cars accelerate hard
> to get past, so they are not stuck behind a bike on the narrow access
> road for the few seconds it would take them to get into the car park.
> It also bothers me On Principle, I think, because over taking at a
> junction is A Bad Thing.

I agree it's Bad, and dodgy overtaking of all sorts is happening more and
more as the acceleration performance of average cars increases to
ridiculous levels. The drivers must be doing their brains in with all the
G force!

~PB

[David Martin]

On 15/6/04 11:56 am, in article ,
"audrey" > wrote:

> and, going OT now, notes email addy and waves to Nice Man from the
> Ancestral Homelands - actually my parents left Dundee before I was
> born, but we visited so often and they talked about it so much, it
> feels like 'home' even though I've never lived there.

Actually I'm from sarf of the river, and not from Scotland at all though I'm
one of the few people here who moved south on immigrating.. (a brief stay in
places north and cold) But it is a nice place and well worth visiting on a
cycling tour. The natives are friendly and to quote a recent advertisement
the spring water comes in still, sparkling, and brown with a head.
(It also doesn't rain much here at all..)

regards

...d

[audrey]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:39:32 +0100, David Martin
> wrote:

>On 15/6/04 11:56 am, in article ,
>"audrey" > wrote:
>
>> and, going OT now, notes email addy and waves to Nice Man from the
>> Ancestral Homelands - actually my parents left Dundee before I was
>> born, but we visited so often and they talked about it so much, it
>> feels like 'home' even though I've never lived there.
>
>Actually I'm from sarf of the river, and not from Scotland at all though I'm
>one of the few people here who moved south on immigrating.. (a brief stay in
>places north and cold) But it is a nice place and well worth visiting on a
>cycling tour. The natives are friendly and to quote a recent advertisement
>the spring water comes in still, sparkling, and brown with a head.
>(It also doesn't rain much here at all..)
>
I shall prob be visiting later in the year for Family Things. But the
thought of all those Hills puts me off bringing bike along. At least
I shall be able to understand the locals (even though I can't acually
speak the local patois). Some Mancunian friends of mine had a
miserable few days in Dundee because of the rude locals' responses to
their requests for directions. Eventually someone told them the
locals were saying "I dinnae ken" *not* "I dinnae care"

A
--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

audrey wrote:

> I'm at the head of a line of traffic [1] in the 'right turn only'
> lane, waiting at the traffic lights to turn right. I'm positioned in
> the centre of the lane. Lights go green, I move forward and wait for
> suitable gap in on-coming traffic. This is a busy road, so it can
> take a while. Gap appears, I turn right, car behind me sets off at
> the same time and overtakes me as we both turn right. Car zooms past
> me on the right.

Wot the others said - move right to prevent it. Also buy an Air Zound. It
is very good at making dozy cagers realise they have done something stupid.
Think of it as an attitude adjuster :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

[James Hodson]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:21:10 +0100, David Martin
> wrote:

>Move about three quarters of the way across the lane, enough to stop the car
>passing on the right or the left.

Hi Dave

Recently, in a situation similar to Audrey's I did as you suggest and
was overtaken on my LEFT by a car coming from behind me.

No harm done except to thhe car's rear tyres, my vocal chords and one
of my wrists (extreme hand signalling!).

James

[audrey]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:59:05 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
> wrote:


>Wot the others said - move right to prevent it. Also buy an Air Zound. It
>is very good at making dozy cagers realise they have done something stupid.
>Think of it as an attitude adjuster :-)
>
hmm .. does it work better than sidling up to them in the baked bean
aisle, enquiring if they have a [insert colour] [insert make] car?
then asking them why they cut just cut you up like that? preferably in
hearing range of their spouse/partner/kids

A

--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

[Peter Clinch]

audrey wrote:

> I shall prob be visiting later in the year for Family Things. But the
> thought of all those Hills puts me off bringing bike along.

There's no shortage of them, but the somewhat linear nature of the town
layout along the side of 2 hills means you can usually zig and zag up
more sensible inclines rather than take on the Serious Stuff head on.
e.g, Hilltown bad, Victoria Road good, West Park Road bad, Blackness
Road good.
My round-town hack bike has a 3 speed hub on it and it's okay for the job.

If you want a pleasant hackette head out West to Errol (possibly for
dinner at the Smiddy), which is along the side of the firth and aside
from a short climb to Errol at the end or into Invergowrie on the way
back is pretty much pancake terrain.

> I shall be able to understand the locals (even though I can't actually
> speak the local patois).

I've lived here since '89 and some parts of Lochee still leave me pretty
confused as to what's being said... I think it's a bit like Chinese
with the intonation thing, with the word "Ehhh" alone capable of
expressing many different concepts when used just so... ;-)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[Pete Biggs]

audrey wrote:
[i]
>> Wot the others said - move right to prevent it. Also buy an Air
>> Zound. It is very good at making dozy cagers realise they have done
>> something stupid. Think of it as an attitude adjuster :-)
>>
> hmm .. does it work better than sidling up to them in the baked bean
> aisle, enquiring if they have a [insert make] car?
> then asking them why they cut just cut you up like that? preferably in
> hearing range of their spouse/partner/kids

Either would be more civilised than accidentally knocking the offender's
ankle with your trolley wheel. Ouch! :-)

~PB

[Doki]

"Pete Biggs" > wrote in message
...
> audrey wrote:
>
> > the trouble with this particular junction is the cars accelerate hard
> > to get past, so they are not stuck behind a bike on the narrow access
> > road for the few seconds it would take them to get into the car park.
> > It also bothers me On Principle, I think, because over taking at a
> > junction is A Bad Thing.
>
> I agree it's Bad, and dodgy overtaking of all sorts is happening more and
> more as the acceleration performance of average cars increases to
> ridiculous levels. The drivers must be doing their brains in with all the
> G force!

I don't know about that. I've driven many miles behind queues of tailgating
cars who won't / can't overtake HGVs doing 40 on single carriageway roads.
Anyway, overtaking in a car with a decent amount of go is safer than in a
slow car, as you're on the wrong side of the road for less time.

[audrey]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:28:10 +0100, "Pete Biggs"
> wrote:


>
>Either would be more civilised than accidentally knocking the offender's
>ankle with your trolley wheel. Ouch! :-)
>
I wouldn't dream of doing anything of that nature.
I can't carry a trolley's worth of stuff home on the bike.

A

--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

[Pete Biggs]

Doki wrote:

>> I agree it's Bad, and dodgy overtaking of all sorts is happening
>> more and more as the acceleration performance of average cars
>> increases to ridiculous levels. The drivers must be doing their
>> brains in with all the G force!
>
> I don't know about that. I've driven many miles behind queues of
> tailgating cars who won't / can't overtake HGVs doing 40 on single
> carriageway roads. Anyway, overtaking in a car with a decent amount
> of go is safer than in a slow car, as you're on the wrong side of the
> road for less time.

But it's often safer still not to overtake at all and slower cars
encourage that. Some drivers may still be cautious or even over-cautious
but my point was that overtaking is more frequent than it used to be.
Motorists overtake me on my bike more often and quicker than they used to
a few years ago just because they can.

~PB

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

Doki wrote:
> overtaking in a car with a decent amount
> of go is safer than in a slow car, as you're on the wrong side of the
> road for less time.

In theory. But what actually happens is that people use the greater power
to get into bigger trouble more quickly (see the recent Top Gear pictures
for details).

--
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

[audrey]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:24:21 +0100, Peter Clinch
> wrote:

>audrey wrote:
>
>> I shall prob be visiting later in the year for Family Things. But the
>> thought of all those Hills puts me off bringing bike along.
>
>There's no shortage of them, but the somewhat linear nature of the town
>layout along the side of 2 hills means you can usually zig and zag up
>more sensible inclines rather than take on the Serious Stuff head on.
>e.g, Hilltown bad, Victoria Road good, West Park Road bad, Blackness
>Road good.
>My round-town hack bike has a 3 speed hub on it and it's okay for the job.

I suspect your legs have more gears in them than mine, tho

A


--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

[Pete Biggs]

audrey wrote:

>> Either would be more civilised than accidentally knocking the
>> offender's ankle with your trolley wheel. Ouch! :-)
>>
> I wouldn't dream of doing anything of that nature.
> I can't carry a trolley's worth of stuff home on the bike.

:-) I can, actually. Albeit rather in rather a wobbly fashion, with
risk of busting my bike. ...One reason I'm going to build a super-strong
rear wheel (hence recent questions about touring rims, etc).

~PB

[Clive George]

"Pete Biggs" > wrote in message
...
> audrey wrote:
>
> >> Either would be more civilised than accidentally knocking the
> >> offender's ankle with your trolley wheel. Ouch! :-)
> >>
> > I wouldn't dream of doing anything of that nature.
> > I can't carry a trolley's worth of stuff home on the bike.
>
> :-) I can, actually. Albeit rather in rather a wobbly fashion, with
> risk of busting my bike. ...One reason I'm going to build a super-strong
> rear wheel (hence recent questions about touring rims, etc).

You want a trailer. Pete will no doubt push his latest acquisition, but even
a nice trailer is around 1/4 of the price!

cheers,
clive

[Peter Clinch]

audrey wrote:

> I suspect your legs have more gears in them than mine, tho

entirely likely, but if you've usually got 21 or so on the bike that
should redress the balance. There are quite a few Normal People cycle
round Dundee on so-so bikes and manage okay.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[David Martin]

On 15/6/04 1:24 pm, in article , "Peter Clinch"
> wrote:

> audrey wrote:
>
>> I shall prob be visiting later in the year for Family Things. But the
>> thought of all those Hills puts me off bringing bike along.
>
> There's no shortage of them, but the somewhat linear nature of the town
> layout along the side of 2 hills means you can usually zig and zag up
> more sensible inclines rather than take on the Serious Stuff head on.
> e.g, Hilltown bad, Victoria Road good, West Park Road bad, Blackness
> Road good.
> My round-town hack bike has a 3 speed hub on it and it's okay for the job.
>

I can just about commute on my single speed sit up and beg without a
problem. Yes Dundee has hills as Pete says but they aren't that bad or
particularly long (or particularly steep, one or the other).


> If you want a pleasant hackette head out West to Errol (possibly for
> dinner at the Smiddy), which is along the side of the firth and aside
> from a short climb to Errol at the end or into Invergowrie on the way
> back is pretty much pancake terrain.

Errol is situated on the Carse of Gowrie which is a flat (within 20m or so
RMS) floodplain. Very easy to get to without going up any hills from the
city centre. However, If you do want a challenge, there are some extremely
nice rides up through the hills. And you can visit nice places such as
Glamis castle.. (supposed to have a good cafe).

>
>> I shall be able to understand the locals (even though I can't actually
>> speak the local patois).
>
> I've lived here since '89 and some parts of Lochee still leave me pretty
> confused as to what's being said... I think it's a bit like Chinese
> with the intonation thing, with the word "Ehhh" alone capable of
> expressing many different concepts when used just so... ;-)

Dundee has two dialects. One is Dundonian, the other is Lochee. Until about
1900 Lochee was a separate town built around the Camperdown Mill and
populated by Irish immigrants. The language is somewhat difficult to
penetrate. I have problems understanding my kids at times (we live on the
edge of Lochee). It's even harder understanding the locals when the pubs
have just kicked out.

...d

[Pete Biggs]

Clive George wrote:

>>> I wouldn't dream of doing anything of that nature.
>>> I can't carry a trolley's worth of stuff home on the bike.
>>
>> :-) I can, actually. Albeit rather in rather a wobbly fashion,
>> with risk of busting my bike. ...One reason I'm going to build a
>> super-strong rear wheel (hence recent questions about touring rims,
>> etc).
>
> You want a trailer. Pete will no doubt push his latest acquisition,
> but even a nice trailer is around 1/4 of the price!

A trailer would be indeed be useful for shopping, but I don't really want
one for where I am now. Maybe I should think again, though!

~PB

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:46:20 +0100 someone who may be audrey
> wrote this:-

>I can't carry a trolley's worth of stuff home on the bike.

A suitable trailer would also discourage motorists from overtaking
you.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

[Pyromancer]

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as audrey
> breathed:

>What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like this on
>right turns?

Is this really such a problem? Presumably there is plenty of room as
you both turn and unless you're at competition level the car will be
accelerating much faster than you are, so why not let them go in front
and then follow behind?

Although I know I've every right to be on the road, I also know I'm a
lot slower than motorised traffic and don't see why I should delay other
people unnecessarily.

--
- Pyromancer.
- http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
- http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk <-- Electronic Metal!
- http://www.revival.stormshadow.com <-- The Gothic Revival.

[John Mallard]

"audrey" > wrote in message
...
> I'd appreciate some advice from more experienced cyclists.
[...]
> What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like this on
> right turns?

Have a more pert bottom?
;-)

Sorry!

--
Cheerful Pedalling
John Mallard

[audrey]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:57:36 +0100, Pyromancer
> wrote:

>Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as audrey
> breathed:
>
>>What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like this on
>>right turns?
>
>Is this really such a problem? Presumably there is plenty of room as
>you both turn and unless you're at competition level the car will be
>accelerating much faster than you are, so why not let them go in front
>and then follow behind?
>
and behind the car behind? and behind the car behind that?

>Although I know I've every right to be on the road, I also know I'm a
>lot slower than motorised traffic and don't see why I should delay other
>people unnecessarily.

agreed. I am not intending to delay anyone unnecessarily.

A

--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

[Daniel Barlow]

Pyromancer > writes:

> Is this really such a problem? Presumably there is plenty of room as
> you both turn and unless you're at competition level the car will be
> accelerating much faster than you are, so why not let them go in front
> and then follow behind?

You really don't need to be at competition level to outaccelerate most
cars up to about 15-20mph, you just need to be in the right gear. I
don't mean that you'd win if they were actively racing, but many
drivers pull away from the lights in a fairly orderly and dignified
fashion (read: slow) and if I can use that opportunity to get a little
space between them and me so that they'll encounter me in a less
mentally taxing ordinary road setting instead of at a junction, with
potential hazards on all sides, I think that's a good thing.
Especially if they've already shown they're the kind of driver who'll
cut a corner to overtake just because cyclists are by definition
slower than them and they can't cope with the idea of _not_ overtaking...

Plus it's more fun that way, of course.

> Although I know I've every right to be on the road, I also know I'm a
> lot slower than motorised traffic and don't see why I should delay other
> people unnecessarily.

I wish the motorists around here thought the same way. Though
admittedly there's not a lot they can do to stop delaying faster
traffic that doesn't involve leaving the car at home.


-dan

--
"please make sure that the person is your friend before you confirm"

[Nick Kew]

In article >,
audrey > writes:

> I'm at the head of a line of traffic [1] in the 'right turn only'
> lane, waiting at the traffic lights to turn right. I'm positioned in
> the centre of the lane. Lights go green, I move forward and wait for
> suitable gap in on-coming traffic. This is a busy road, so it can
> take a while. Gap appears, I turn right, car behind me sets off at
> the same time and overtakes me as we both turn right. Car zooms past
> me on the right.

Is this really a problem? If it's such a busy junction that you
have to wait, then it's hardly surprising if other road users want
to use the gap in parallel with you.

--
Nick Kew

[Zog The Undeniable]

audrey wrote:

> I'd appreciate some advice from more experienced cyclists. Situation
> is this:
>
> I'm at the head of a line of traffic [1] in the 'right turn only'
> lane, waiting at the traffic lights to turn right. I'm positioned in
> the centre of the lane. Lights go green, I move forward and wait for
> suitable gap in on-coming traffic. This is a busy road, so it can
> take a while. Gap appears, I turn right, car behind me sets off at
> the same time and overtakes me as we both turn right. Car zooms past
> me on the right.

1. My Cycling Proficiency trainer told me 25 years ago that you must
give a repeat arm signal just before moving off, i.e. when traffic
lights go red/amber or when your exit becomes clear (I'm assuming you
don't want to sit there with your arm stuck out *all* the time you're
stopped). The signal should deter cars from passing on the right - but
see (3).

2. Positioning on the road is the main thing. For a normal right turn I
would be sitting virtually on the white line. However, on multi-lane
roads where for some reason you can't use the left hand lane - this
includes roundabouts - you should keep to the left of your lane and
expect traffic to pass on both sides.

3. Always do your "lifesaver" look before moving off - at least you saw
the car. There are a lot of people on the roads who have never passed a
driving test and/or are terminally stupid. Expect the unexpected etc.

[Pete Biggs]

Pyromancer wrote:

> Is this really such a problem? Presumably there is plenty of room as
> you both turn and unless you're at competition level the car will be
> accelerating much faster than you are, so why not let them go in front
> and then follow behind?

Room to overtake doesn't automatically equal plenty of room. There needs
to be a margin for safety, otherwise the car could strike the bike (or
vice versa) if either party makes a misjudgment or needs to suddenly
swerve for any unexpected reason. Talk about statating the obvious!
....But it seems I need to.

> Although I know I've every right to be on the road, I also know I'm a
> lot slower than motorised traffic and don't see why I should delay
> other people unnecessarily.

There are times when it's necessary to delay people for safety reasons.

~PB

[Zog The Undeniable]

Pete Biggs wrote:

> I agree it's Bad, and dodgy overtaking of all sorts is happening more and
> more as the acceleration performance of average cars increases to
> ridiculous levels. The drivers must be doing their brains in with all the
> G force!

ISTR that modern cars are, on average, slower to accelerate than their
70s or 80s counterparts. Power is up (so maximum speed is too) but
weight is up by much more.

[audrey]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:41:46 +0100, (Nick Kew)
wrote:

>In article >,
> audrey > writes:
>
>> I'm at the head of a line of traffic [1] in the 'right turn only'
>> lane, waiting at the traffic lights to turn right. I'm positioned in
>> the centre of the lane. Lights go green, I move forward and wait for
>> suitable gap in on-coming traffic. This is a busy road, so it can
>> take a while. Gap appears, I turn right, car behind me sets off at
>> the same time and overtakes me as we both turn right. Car zooms past
>> me on the right.
>
>Is this really a problem? If it's such a busy junction that you
>have to wait, then it's hardly surprising if other road users want
>to use the gap in parallel with you.

but there isn't enough room for them to do so safely. The road we are
turning into is narrow (with a kerb on both right and left), leaving
very little margin for error.

A

--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:39:46 +0100, David Hansen
> wrote in message
>:

>A suitable trailer would also discourage motorists from overtaking
>you.

One with side-firing missiles?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

[Pete Biggs]

Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>
>> I agree it's Bad, and dodgy overtaking of all sorts is happening
>> more and more as the acceleration performance of average cars
>> increases to ridiculous levels. The drivers must be doing their
>> brains in with all the G force!
>
> ISTR that modern cars are, on average, slower to accelerate than their
> 70s or 80s counterparts. Power is up (so maximum speed is too) but
> weight is up by much more.

Cost of high perfomance seems to have become more affordable then. I
think more people must drive quick cars now than was the case in the 70s
and 80s.

~PB

[audrey]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:33:50 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
> wrote:

>On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:39:46 +0100, David Hansen
> wrote in message
>:
>
>>A suitable trailer would also discourage motorists from overtaking
>>you.
>
>One with side-firing missiles?

..... contemplates outfitting sonandheir with catapult for
soon-to-be-purchased trailer bike


--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

[JohnB]

Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>
> ISTR that modern cars are, on average, slower to accelerate than their
> 70s or 80s counterparts. Power is up (so maximum speed is too) but
> weight is up by much more.

That's because the occupants don't cycle ;-)

John B

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:58:27 +0100, audrey > wrote in
message >:

>.... contemplates outfitting sonandheir with catapult for
>soon-to-be-purchased trailer bike

Quality idea :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

[audrey]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:17:54 +0100, Zog The Undeniable
> wrote:


>
>1. My Cycling Proficiency trainer told me 25 years ago that you must
>give a repeat arm signal just before moving off, i.e. when traffic
>lights go red/amber or when your exit becomes clear (I'm assuming you
>don't want to sit there with your arm stuck out *all* the time you're
>stopped). The signal should deter cars from passing on the right - but
>see (3).

I don't see how that would help - it is bleedin obvious I am going to
turn right (once you are in the right turn lane you can't go straight
on due to traffic island), also the few seconds delay while I signal
before setting off will only encourage overtaking.
>
>2. Positioning on the road is the main thing. For a normal right turn I
>would be sitting virtually on the white line. However, on multi-lane
>roads where for some reason you can't use the left hand lane - this
>includes roundabouts - you should keep to the left of your lane and
>expect traffic to pass on both sides.

For the reasons David and others gave, I'm thinking being to the
middle/right is better in this situation. I'm trying to stop the
traffic passing me.
>
>3. Always do your "lifesaver" look before moving off - at least you saw
>the car. There are a lot of people on the roads who have never passed a
>driving test and/or are terminally stupid. Expect the unexpected etc.

I always do that while the lights are on red - have a good look at the
car behind me, hopefully making eye contact so they realise I'm there,
but if that fails I have a good chance of recognising them in the
baked bean aisle.

A

--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

[james]

audrey > wrote in message >...
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:59:05 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
> > wrote:
>
>[i]
> >Wot the others said - move right to prevent it. Also buy an Air Zound. It
> >is very good at making dozy cagers realise they have done something stupid.
> >Think of it as an attitude adjuster :-)
> >
> hmm .. does it work better than sidling up to them in the baked bean
> aisle, enquiring if they have a [insert make] car?
> then asking them <strikethrough> why they cut just cut you up like that? preferably in
> hearing range of their spouse/partner/kids </strikethrough>
if they have seen that bunch of kids trying to steal it?

For extra fun you can then fill their abandoned trolley with expensive
and inappropriate products

best wishes
james

[Gareth Rees]

audrey wrote:
> What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like this on
> right turns?

Nothing, I'm afraid. On narrow roads you can attempt to block their path,
but my experience is that when I do that they often try to overtake on my
left, which is more annoying than when they overtake on my right.

So I'd say let them go; if a driver desperate to have an accident, then it's
better if they have it somewhere else.

--
Gareth Rees

[Gareth Rees]

audrey wrote:
> What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like this on
> right turns?

Nothing, I'm afraid. On narrow roads you can attempt to block their path,
but my experience is that when I do that they often try to overtake on my
left, which is more annoying than when they overtake on my right.

So I'd say let them go; if a driver is desperate to have an accident, then it's
better if they have it somewhere else.

--
Gareth Rees

[Gawnsoft]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:59:05 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
> wrote (more or less):

>audrey wrote:
>
>> I'm at the head of a line of traffic [1] in the 'right turn only'
>> lane, waiting at the traffic lights to turn right. I'm positioned in
>> the centre of the lane. Lights go green, I move forward and wait for
>> suitable gap in on-coming traffic. This is a busy road, so it can
>> take a while. Gap appears, I turn right, car behind me sets off at
>> the same time and overtakes me as we both turn right. Car zooms past
>> me on the right.
>
>Wot the others said - move right to prevent it. Also buy an Air Zound. It
>is very good at making dozy cagers realise they have done something stupid.
>Think of it as an attitude adjuster :-)

I was thinking of getting one, but you need to place them /mch/ closer
to your own ears than to the dozy driver/pedestrian that you wish to
remind of your presence.

What we need is a Zound that can be placed out at the front-most tip
of the bike, preferably at about hub height.


--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

[Pete Biggs]

Gareth Rees wrote:
> audrey wrote:
>> What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like this on
>> right turns?
>
> Nothing, I'm afraid. On narrow roads you can attempt to block their
> path, but my experience is that when I do that they often try to
> overtake on my left, which is more annoying than when they overtake
> on my right.

They rarely do that in my experience but maybe that's because I'm quick
enough of the mark.

~PB

[Danny Colyer]

Gawnsoft wrote:
> I was thinking of getting one, but you need to place them /mch/ closer
> to your own ears than to the dozy driver/pedestrian that you wish to
> remind of your presence.
>
> What we need is a Zound that can be placed out at the front-most tip
> of the bike, preferably at about hub height.

A chap I quite often meet on my commute has mounted his on his rear
triangle where he can operate it with his heel.

I suppose I really should get a picture sometime.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, Just zis Guy,
you know? ') wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:39:46 +0100, David Hansen
> > wrote in message
> >:
>
>>A suitable trailer would also discourage motorists from overtaking
>>you.
>
> One with side-firing missiles?

Not necessary. In the days when I regularly used a bike hod it was
noticeable how much more road presence it gave you. Motorists were
*much* more cautious when it was on - similar to the 'bent thing, I
suspect. It may have been partly due to the fact that my (white) bike
hod bag was liberally decorated with large red retro-reflective
triangles, but I suspect it was mostly that it was unfamiliar, and from
the back it would be quite hard to judge how long the whole contraption
was.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I'm fed up with Life 1.0. I never liked it much and now it's getting
me down. I think I'll upgrade to MSLife 97 -- you know, the one that
comes in a flash new box and within weeks you're crawling with bugs.

[Ambrose Nankivell]

In ,
David Hansen > typed:
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:46:20 +0100 someone who may be audrey
> > wrote this:-
>
>> I can't carry a trolley's worth of stuff home on the bike.
>
> A suitable trailer would also discourage motorists from overtaking
> you.

But they then may reverse back over you. And if you were using it as a
luggage trailer, then the cast iron excuse "I didn't know there was a child
in the trailer" would actually be true.

Ambrose
(not for new readers: refers to the story of Carl Baxter, who got two years
in jail (IIRC) for the attempted murder of a cyclist who was out with his
two year old daughter in the trailer.)

[audrey]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:09:37 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
> wrote:

>Ambrose
>(not for new readers: refers to the story of Carl Baxter, who got two years
>in jail (IIRC) for the attempted murder of a cyclist who was out with his
>two year old daughter in the trailer.)
>
Please don't tell my mum [1] bout that

[1] and adoring granny, who is to be prevailed upon to assist with
funds for the purchase of trailer bike, No.1 Grandson for the
transport of.

A
--

email = audmad aaatttt hhhottt mmmaailll dddoottt ccccoommm

[Ambrose Nankivell]

In ,
audrey > typed:
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:09:37 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
> > wrote:
>
>> Ambrose
>> (not for new readers: refers to the story of Carl Baxter, who got
>> two years in jail (IIRC) for the attempted murder of a cyclist who
>> was out with his two year old daughter in the trailer.)
>>
> Please don't tell my mum [1] bout that

No, likewise my siblings & adorable nephews & neice don't know either. The
youngest nephew's dad was definitely talking about it, which was a nice
thought to behold, and the older nephews love theirs, so it's all good.

But you can't let psychopaths run your lives. There's not many of them about
anyway.

> [1] and adoring granny, who is to be prevailed upon to assist with
> funds for the purchase of trailer bike, No.1 Grandson for the
> transport of.

Sounds very sensible.

A

[Trek1000]

Originally posted by Audrey
I'd appreciate some advice from more experienced cyclists. Situation
is this:

I'm at the head of a line of traffic [1] in the 'right turn only'
lane, waiting at the traffic lights to turn right. I'm positioned in
the centre of the lane. Lights go green, I move forward and wait for
suitable gap in on-coming traffic. This is a busy road, so it can
take a while. Gap appears, I turn right, car behind me sets off at
the same time and overtakes me as we both turn right. Car zooms past
me on the right.

This happens to me quite often. Particularly at the turn into local
supermarket, where presumably cars want to make sure they are be ahead
of me before the road we are turning into narrows shortly after the
junction. Who knows how their day might be ruined if they are delayed by
those valuable few seconds getting into the car park.

What, if anything, can I do to stop cars overtaking me like this on
right turns?

I feel your pain. They give driver's licenses to any idiot now a
days. Get into the center of the lane like you have been doing and
remain VISIBLE



--