Pannier Sizes

[Randall Flagg]

Hi,

I'm looking at doing some touring in September, either the Celtic Trail +
detours or some towpath / follow my nose type touring in France (if my
Lonely Planet guide ever turns up from Amazon.).

I'll be taking with me only what will fit on the bike, so can anyone give me
a clue as to the largest pannier size thats available. I saw a 60 litre pair
today, but I haven't seen anything larger. I realise that there is a limit
to the size a pannier can be, but I would prefer just to have rear panniers
than to load up on the front as well.

Does anyone have any recommendations for panniers for extended touring? ie.
2 weeks +

Many thanks in advance....

[Arthur Clune]

Randall Flagg > wrote:

: I'll be taking with me only what will fit on the bike, so can anyone give me
: a clue as to the largest pannier size thats available. I saw a 60 litre pair
: today, but I haven't seen anything larger. I realise that there is a limit
: to the size a pannier can be, but I would prefer just to have rear panniers
: than to load up on the front as well.

Why? You'll get much better handling with smaller rear ones and some small front
ones than with a pair of huge rear ones.

: Does anyone have any recommendations for panniers for extended touring? ie.
: 2 weeks +

I assume you're not camping? If you're B&B'ing/hostelling I'd have thought two
standard size rear panniers would hold plenty enough. If they don't, take less.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

[Peter Clinch]

Randall Flagg wrote:

> I'll be taking with me only what will fit on the bike, so can anyone give me
> a clue as to the largest pannier size thats available. I saw a 60 litre pair
> today, but I haven't seen anything larger. I realise that there is a limit
> to the size a pannier can be, but I would prefer just to have rear panniers
> than to load up on the front as well.

That's easy to say, but if you actually /try/ a heavy bike with 100% of
the load on the back and another with the same load split about 60/40
front rear you might change your mind!
The last but one copy of Cycle had an article by Chris Juden about
loading your bike, and it's worth hunting down to have a look.

If you're taking the sort of loads where 60 litre loads are envisaged
for the panniers then I'd strongly suggest looking at splitting the
weight fore and aft.

The only panniers I've seen larger than 60l are special ones for
recumbent bikes, where you don't have to worry about heel clearance.
Rear panniers for Serious Touring tend to be 40 - 50 a pair, 60 is quite
unusually large. In bigger sizes, make sure you have heel clearance.

> Does anyone have any recommendations for panniers for extended touring? ie.
> 2 weeks +

Ortlieb, Carradice, Altura, Karrimor, VauDe are all excellent.
Waterproof can be a Cunning Plan.

Don't forget you can add bar bags to even up the weight distribution a
bit. Or if you want a really good size load get a BOB Yak single wheel
trailer.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[James Annan]

Randall Flagg wrote:


> I'll be taking with me only what will fit on the bike, so can anyone give me
> a clue as to the largest pannier size thats available. I saw a 60 litre pair
> today, but I haven't seen anything larger. I realise that there is a limit
> to the size a pannier can be, but I would prefer just to have rear panniers
> than to load up on the front as well.

We use Jannd mountain expedition panniers, which I think claim 110
litres for a pair (that's with the top fully extended, which we don't
usually need).

That's for camping tours on a tandem with no front panniers, though.

James

[Mark Tranchant]

Randall Flagg wrote:

> I'll be taking with me only what will fit on the bike, so can anyone give me
> a clue as to the largest pannier size thats available. I saw a 60 litre pair
> today, but I haven't seen anything larger. I realise that there is a limit
> to the size a pannier can be, but I would prefer just to have rear panniers
> than to load up on the front as well.

Loading on the front is good.

http://tranchant.plus.com/cycling/france-1996/ft1-2

My bike is the one on the right. The lowrider front panniers were
essential as we were camping and had quite a lot to carry. The loaded
front made the otherwise twitchy Peugeot much more relaxing to ride.
You'll see I even had tri-bars fitted, which were a pleasure to settle
down onto once my hands and arms got a bit tired.

Once we arrived and I removed the fronts, the unfamiliar twitchiness
nearly had me off the bike!

> Does anyone have any recommendations for panniers for extended touring? ie.
> 2 weeks +

Camping, or not? Whichever, pack as light as you can. Don't take stuff
all the way around your tour and not use it at all.

As far as recommendations go, I've been using a single largish (45l?)
rear Karrimor Kalahari (I think) for commuting for several years now.
Very tough with an excellent quick-release.

--
Mark.

[JohnB]

Randall Flagg wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking at doing some touring in September, either the Celtic Trail +
> detours or some towpath / follow my nose type touring in France (if my
> Lonely Planet guide ever turns up from Amazon.).
>
> I'll be taking with me only what will fit on the bike, so can anyone give me
> a clue as to the largest pannier size thats available. I saw a 60 litre pair
> today, but I haven't seen anything larger. I realise that there is a limit
> to the size a pannier can be, but I would prefer just to have rear panniers
> than to load up on the front as well.

If you *do* have to carry so much then a front set will improve bike
handling no end. But I'd seriously give some more thought to why you
need to carry so much.
There is a rule that the more space you have the more unnecessary stuff
you will carry.

> Does anyone have any recommendations for panniers for extended touring? ie.
> 2 weeks +

I use Ortlieb 30L Sport Packer Plus, and that's for camping as well.

John B

[Michael MacClancy]

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:41:52 +0000 (UTC), Randall Flagg wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm looking at doing some touring in September, either the Celtic Trail +
> detours or some towpath / follow my nose type touring in France (if my
> Lonely Planet guide ever turns up from Amazon.).
>
> I'll be taking with me only what will fit on the bike, so can anyone give me
> a clue as to the largest pannier size thats available. I saw a 60 litre pair
> today, but I haven't seen anything larger. I realise that there is a limit
> to the size a pannier can be, but I would prefer just to have rear panniers
> than to load up on the front as well.
>
> Does anyone have any recommendations for panniers for extended touring? ie.
> 2 weeks +
>
> Many thanks in advance....

Jobst Brandt does an annual tour of the Alps lasting 20 or more days with
the following kit and using a Carradice Nelson saddlebag. He's not
camping, though.

See http://www-math.science.unitn.it/Bike/General/Packing_List.html


CLOTHING
Cycling shorts and Jersey (2ea)
Socks (2pr)
Undershorts
Undershirts
Cycling shoes
Sweater
Cold weather gloves
Slacks and shirt
Rain cape or waterproof parka shell (with hood)
Cycling cap with visor (for sunburn protection)
Helmet
Sun glasses

MECHANICAL
Pump
Spare tire and tube
Patch kit
Tire levers
Spokes w. nipples (2 of each length)
Spoke wrench
Freewheel remover for your specific freewheel
Cone wrenches (pair)
T-wrench, L-wrench for derailleurs etc.
Chain tool
Screwdriver (pencil size)
6 inch adjustable wrench
Rear axle (for non cassette hub)


SUNDRIES
Passport (if necessary)
Address book
Money (cash and travelers checks)
ATM (Bancomat) and VISA/MC card(s)
Camera (and accessories)
Film for entire trip
Maps
Tooth brush
Comb
Nail clipper
Pen
Shaver
Pocket Knife
Spoon
Salve, sun lotion, chap stick
Plastic produce bags (4+)
Tape, white adhesive or duct tape
Pocket calculator (for currency computations)
Can opener
Matches (or lighter)

TOOLS required to assemble bike at point of departure
Crank extractor
Crank bolt wrench
Spare crank bolt (in case one breaks on assembly)


--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "They never open their mouths without subtracting from
the sum of human knowledge." - Thomas Brackett Reed
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

[mark]

"Peter Clinch" wrote ...
> Randall Flagg wrote:
>
> > I'll be taking with me only what will fit on the bike, so can anyone
give me
> > a clue as to the largest pannier size thats available. I saw a 60 litre
pair
> > today, but I haven't seen anything larger. I realise that there is a
limit
> > to the size a pannier can be, but I would prefer just to have rear
panniers
> > than to load up on the front as well.
>
> That's easy to say, but if you actually /try/ a heavy bike with 100% of
> the load on the back and another with the same load split about 60/40
> front rear you might change your mind!
> The last but one copy of Cycle had an article by Chris Juden about
> loading your bike, and it's worth hunting down to have a look.
>
> If you're taking the sort of loads where 60 litre loads are envisaged
> for the panniers then I'd strongly suggest looking at splitting the
> weight fore and aft.
>
> The only panniers I've seen larger than 60l are special ones for
> recumbent bikes, where you don't have to worry about heel clearance.
> Rear panniers for Serious Touring tend to be 40 - 50 a pair, 60 is quite
> unusually large. In bigger sizes, make sure you have heel clearance.
>
> > Does anyone have any recommendations for panniers for extended touring?
ie.
> > 2 weeks +
>
> Ortlieb, Carradice, Altura, Karrimor, VauDe are all excellent.
> Waterproof can be a Cunning Plan.
>
> Pete.

For my 3 weeks in Scotland last month I had Ortlieb Bikepacker Lite panniers
in back, small Vaude Panniers in front. The Vaude panniers were good, but
the Ortlieb were far better. Even with the rain covers that the Vaudes came
with, the Ortliebs kept my gear much drier. The Ortliebs were also much
easier to take off and put back on the bike, which I appreciated more and
more as the tour went on.

Defiitely consider splittling the load front and rear- the improved weight
distribution makes the bike much easier to handle. I had front and rear
panniers, a small seatbag (tools/spare tube) and a handlebar bag, al of
shich helped with organizing my gear as well as with weight distribution.
--
mark

[Richard Corfield]

On 2004-06-17, James Annan > wrote:
>
> We use Jannd mountain expedition panniers, which I think claim 110
> litres for a pair (that's with the top fully extended, which we don't
> usually need).
>
> That's for camping tours on a tandem with no front panniers, though.

We tried camping with the tandem with Halfords old waterproof panniers
on the rear, the tent (an old heavy Vango Force 10) on top of them,
and Carradoce front panniers containing trangia, fuel, maps, waterproofs
for the pilot and similar. We wanted bigger though, but a lot of space
was taken by the old not-very-compact sleeping bags.

With the same older equipment, we found 4 rear panniers, 2 front and
2 bar bags just enough including food for 3 days and clothing for wet
weather. It does pay to go for the lighter weight backpacking equipment,
something we'll be getting hold of as our current equipment wears out.

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, Randall Flagg
') wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm looking at doing some touring in September, either the Celtic
> Trail + detours or some towpath / follow my nose type touring in
> France (if my Lonely Planet guide ever turns up from Amazon.).
>
> I'll be taking with me only what will fit on the bike, so can anyone
> give me a clue as to the largest pannier size thats available. I saw a
> 60 litre pair today, but I haven't seen anything larger. I realise
> that there is a limit to the size a pannier can be, but I would prefer
> just to have rear panniers than to load up on the front as well.
>

Frankly putting all your gear into rear panniers is going to make your
bike a pig to ride, and a pig to handle when you're off the bike.
Consider a trailer; my advice would be a single wheeler such as a Bob
Yak or a Weber Monoporter. They upset the handling a lot less.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth
;; knowledge increaseth sorrow.." - Ecclesiastes 1:18

[Randall Flagg]

"mark" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Peter Clinch" wrote ...
> > Randall Flagg wrote:
> >
> > > I'll be taking with me only what will fit on the bike, so can anyone
> give me
> > > a clue as to the largest pannier size thats available. I saw a 60
litre
> pair
> > > today, but I haven't seen anything larger. I realise that there is a
> limit
> > > to the size a pannier can be, but I would prefer just to have rear
> panniers
> > > than to load up on the front as well.
> >
> > That's easy to say, but if you actually /try/ a heavy bike with 100% of
> > the load on the back and another with the same load split about 60/40
> > front rear you might change your mind!
> > The last but one copy of Cycle had an article by Chris Juden about
> > loading your bike, and it's worth hunting down to have a look.
> >
> > If you're taking the sort of loads where 60 litre loads are envisaged
> > for the panniers then I'd strongly suggest looking at splitting the
> > weight fore and aft.
> >
> > The only panniers I've seen larger than 60l are special ones for
> > recumbent bikes, where you don't have to worry about heel clearance.
> > Rear panniers for Serious Touring tend to be 40 - 50 a pair, 60 is quite
> > unusually large. In bigger sizes, make sure you have heel clearance.
> >
> > > Does anyone have any recommendations for panniers for extended
touring?
> ie.
> > > 2 weeks +
> >
> > Ortlieb, Carradice, Altura, Karrimor, VauDe are all excellent.
> > Waterproof can be a Cunning Plan.
> >
> > Pete.
>
> For my 3 weeks in Scotland last month I had Ortlieb Bikepacker Lite
panniers
> in back, small Vaude Panniers in front. The Vaude panniers were good, but
> the Ortlieb were far better. Even with the rain covers that the Vaudes
came
> with, the Ortliebs kept my gear much drier. The Ortliebs were also much
> easier to take off and put back on the bike, which I appreciated more and
> more as the tour went on.
>
> Defiitely consider splittling the load front and rear- the improved weight
> distribution makes the bike much easier to handle. I had front and rear
> panniers, a small seatbag (tools/spare tube) and a handlebar bag, al of
> shich helped with organizing my gear as well as with weight distribution.
> --
> mark
>
>
>
Thanks all for your advice. To be honest I had never really considered that
front panniers
would actually stabilise a loaded bike! I guess I have some more reading to
do....

The reason why I was looking into packing so much is that part of me just
wants to take the
time off work, hop on the bike and see where it takes me - wherever that may
be, and for anything
up to 3 weeks. That would be some journey! If/when I do it, I'll post my
adventures here...

Cheers.

[Randall Flagg]

"Mark Tranchant" > wrote in message
...
> Randall Flagg wrote:
>
> > I'll be taking with me only what will fit on the bike, so can anyone
give me
> > a clue as to the largest pannier size thats available. I saw a 60 litre
pair
> > today, but I haven't seen anything larger. I realise that there is a
limit
> > to the size a pannier can be, but I would prefer just to have rear
panniers
> > than to load up on the front as well.
>
> Loading on the front is good.
>
> http://tranchant.plus.com/cycling/france-1996/ft1-2
>
> My bike is the one on the right. The lowrider front panniers were
> essential as we were camping and had quite a lot to carry. The loaded
> front made the otherwise twitchy Peugeot much more relaxing to ride.
> You'll see I even had tri-bars fitted, which were a pleasure to settle
> down onto once my hands and arms got a bit tired.
>
> Once we arrived and I removed the fronts, the unfamiliar twitchiness
> nearly had me off the bike!
>
> > Does anyone have any recommendations for panniers for extended touring?
ie.
> > 2 weeks +
>
> Camping, or not? Whichever, pack as light as you can. Don't take stuff
> all the way around your tour and not use it at all.
>
> As far as recommendations go, I've been using a single largish (45l?)
> rear Karrimor Kalahari (I think) for commuting for several years now.
> Very tough with an excellent quick-release.
>
> --
> Mark.

Mark, thanks for the info! I'll definitely be looking into some front
lo-rider type
panniers. Don't know about the aero-bars, as my hybrid doesn't have drops.
Might look a bit weird asking for them, but I can sure understand that they
would
be doing your hands a big favour!

Nice little trip diary you've put together there. My digital camera arrives
next week,
and that is one thing I'm hoping to do when I come back, put together a
photo type
journal of all my travels. Sure looks like you had a great time.

[Mark]

> Thanks all for your advice. To be honest I had never really considered
that
> front panniers
> would actually stabilise a loaded bike! I guess I have some more reading
to
> do....

I've found this thread extremely useful. I'm doing a Big Ride later on in
the year & was beginning to ponder the subject of how to carry my stuff.

I'd never considered a trailer, but did so after someone mentioned it in
another thread. There are some Bob Yaks on the Orbit site, I note. I
was seriously considered getting one, until I realised that it possibly
won't be viable because my Big Ride involves a train journey to get to
the starting point, and I think that there may be issues with
transporting the trailer as well as the bike on the train (unless it
can be carried as hand luggage when not in use, which I'm not sure
is feasible).

So it looks like panniers is the way to go for me personally.

My question is: what do people use for front & rear panniers? I see
Ortleib have some specific front ones at 25l. Do people use ones like
this with smaller capacities on the front and larger ones on the
back? Can you get smaller ones than 25l for the front?

Thanks for any thoughts.

Mark

[Peter Clinch]

Mark wrote:

> was seriously considered getting one, until I realised that it possibly
> won't be viable because my Big Ride involves a train journey to get to
> the starting point, and I think that there may be issues with
> transporting the trailer as well as the bike on the train (unless it
> can be carried as hand luggage when not in use, which I'm not sure
> is feasible).

Call up the relevant train company and ask is one option, another (which
I would use) is book on your bike and just turn up with the BOB: they're
not /that/ big, certainly no worse than many a suitcase I've seen on
trains that looked more like outtakes from the 2001 props dept. than
viable luggage!

> My question is: what do people use for front & rear panniers? I see
> Ortleib have some specific front ones at 25l. Do people use ones like
> this with smaller capacities on the front and larger ones on the
> back? Can you get smaller ones than 25l for the front?

Try and split your weight ~60/40. A typical lowrider rack is fairly
close to the ground (hence the name) so smaller bags are generally
necessary there. These usually combine with a bigger set behind, in
Ortlieb's case 40l. Note these volumes are for the pair, a 12.5 l bag
is pretty small to start with. You can get smaller ones, my old
Carradice Carraduras are 10l each. Much smaller than that wouldn't
really be worth it IMHO. There's no reason not to use a smaller pannier
on the back as well, and even ones sold as lowriders should fit on a
rear rack okay.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[Peter Clinch]

Gonzalez wrote:

> Front panniers give the
> bike superb handling - don't write off the idea.

Clarification: a heavy load split well front and rear does not bugger up
the bike's handling nearly as badly as putting it all on the back. Not
/quite/ the same thing as "give the bike superb handling"!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[Roos Eisma]

Peter Clinch > writes:

>Gonzalez wrote:

>> Front panniers give the
>> bike superb handling - don't write off the idea.

>Clarification: a heavy load split well front and rear does not bugger up
>the bike's handling nearly as badly as putting it all on the back. Not
>/quite/ the same thing as "give the bike superb handling"!

Unless you enjoy doing wheelies in which case heavy rear panniers *do*
give suberb handling :-)

Roos

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, Mark
') wrote:

> I've found this thread extremely useful. I'm doing a Big Ride later on
> in the year & was beginning to ponder the subject of how to carry my
> stuff.
>
> I'd never considered a trailer, but did so after someone mentioned it
> in another thread. There are some Bob Yaks on the Orbit site, I note.
> I was seriously considered getting one, until I realised that it
> possibly won't be viable because my Big Ride involves a train journey
> to get to the starting point, and I think that there may be issues
> with transporting the trailer as well as the bike on the train (unless
> it can be carried as hand luggage when not in use, which I'm not sure
> is feasible).

In my experience (and it was twenty-odd years ago I was doing this
regularly) bike + trailer on the train is a lot easier than bike + a
lot of heavy panniers on the train. I never had a guard object to the
trailer, which is, after all, not much different to a wheeled suitcase.

If you have a bike (which is an awkward thing to lift anyway) burdened
down with panniers it becomes an exceedingly awkward thing. I recall
often getting my bike and trailer off a train, hitched up and ready to
go while other cyclists were still struggling to get their heavily
loaded bikes through the door.

In those days I was (as I'm sure everyone here knows by now) using a
bike hod. For fast touring it's probably not the best trailer but it is
exceedingly easy to manouvre off the bike, being to all intents and
purposes a large shopping trolley. So it was extremely easy to get it
on and off the train. <URL:http://www.bikehod.com/bike-hod/index.html>

> My question is: what do people use for front & rear panniers? I see
> Ortleib have some specific front ones at 25l. Do people use ones like
> this with smaller capacities on the front and larger ones on the
> back? Can you get smaller ones than 25l for the front?

If you're going for panniers be sure to get a 'low-rider' type front
rack - one which puts the centre of gravity of the panniers behind
and/or below projected axis of the steering head - otherwise you can
get some _very_ odd steering effects. But, having use both, I stick to
my opinion that a trailer is much better.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
There's nae Gods, an there's precious few heroes
but there's plenty on the dole in th Land o th Leal;
And it's time now, tae sweep the future clear o
th lies o a past that we know wis never real.

[mark]

"Mark" wrote
> I'd never considered a trailer, but did so after someone mentioned it in
> another thread. There are some Bob Yaks on the Orbit site, I note. I
> was seriously considered getting one, until I realised that it possibly
> won't be viable because my Big Ride involves a train journey to get to
> the starting point, and I think that there may be issues with
> transporting the trailer as well as the bike on the train (unless it
> can be carried as hand luggage when not in use, which I'm not sure
> is feasible).

> Mark
>
>
If the train in question has a guard's van to put the bikes in, then a
trailer wouldn't be a problem. If the bicycle arrangements consist of a
space at one end of the passenger car with a pair of bike hooks, then a
trailer is definintely not going to work. When I took the Caledonian Sleeper
last April the bicycle rode in a guard's van, with the front wheel suspended
from a hook on the wall. Very nice, except I had to remove the front
panniers and deflate the (rather fat, 26 x 1.6") front tire to get hoist the
bike onto the hook. A trailer would have been a wonderful thing to have
then. By contrast, when I took Virgin trains from Holyhead to London, the
bicycle area was at one end of the passenger car, with room for two bicycles
suspended by their top tubes from a pair of hooks at waist level. My bike
and 4 panniers was easy to get in with barely room for a second bike, but a
trailer absolutely would not have fit.
--
mark

[Richard Corfield]

On 2004-06-18, Roos Eisma > wrote:
>
> Unless you enjoy doing wheelies in which case heavy rear panniers *do*
> give suberb handling :-)

As do very low gears on steep hill climbs :)

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.

[Mark]

> If the train in question has a guard's van to put the bikes in, then a
> trailer wouldn't be a problem. If the bicycle arrangements consist of a
> space at one end of the passenger car with a pair of bike hooks, then a
> trailer is definintely not going to work. When I took the Caledonian
Sleeper
> last April the bicycle rode in a guard's van, with the front wheel
suspended
> from a hook on the wall. Very nice, except I had to remove the front
> panniers and deflate the (rather fat, 26 x 1.6") front tire to get hoist
the
> bike onto the hook. A trailer would have been a wonderful thing to have
> then. By contrast, when I took Virgin trains from Holyhead to London, the
> bicycle area was at one end of the passenger car, with room for two
bicycles
> suspended by their top tubes from a pair of hooks at waist level. My bike
> and 4 panniers was easy to get in with barely room for a second bike, but
a
> trailer absolutely would not have fit.

Thanks for this.

OK... I'll expand a little. I'm going LE -> JOG in September. The train
down will be 1st Great Western. Coming back: still not sure how it's
going to exactly work yet, but no doubt ScotRail will be involved at
least some of the way (i.e. from Thurso).

Can anybody comment on the cycle storage facilities in trains for these
2 companies, and whether taking a trailer would be feasible on either?

Thanks

Mark

[Tim Hall]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:41:25 +0100, "Mark"
> wrote:

>OK... I'll expand a little. I'm going LE -> JOG in September. The train
>down will be 1st Great Western. Coming back: still not sure how it's
>going to exactly work yet, but no doubt ScotRail will be involved at
>least some of the way (i.e. from Thurso).
>
>Can anybody comment on the cycle storage facilities in trains for these
>2 companies, and whether taking a trailer would be feasible on either?


I've taken a tandem on First Great Western, no problem. Both journeys
used rolling stock with a guards' van of sorts, kitted out with bike
racks and plenty of room for a Bob trailer.

This was two years ago, Paddington-St Austell.

Tim

--
For those who have trouble distinguishing, cynicsm, sarcasm, humour etc,
try mentally inserting smilies thoughout my post until it either
matches what you'd like to read, or what you'd expect me to write.

(Jon Senior urc)

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:16:14 +0100, Tim Hall
> wrote in message
>:

>I've taken a tandem on First Great Western, no problem. Both journeys
>used rolling stock with a guards' van of sorts, kitted out with bike
>racks and plenty of room for a Bob trailer.

But the HSTs are nearing their end of life, and the new Adelantes have
much more limited space - according to the Tandem Club you need to
remove the front wheel and hang our tandem upside down by the rear
wheel!

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

[Peter Clinch]

Gonzalez wrote:

> I felt perfectly safe rolling round hairpin bends on Pyreneean passes
> at 35mph+. The extra weight makes the bike grip the road surface, low
> weight at the front give you a real feel for the bike, and you don't
> have to lean into the turn as much as you would have to on an unladen
> bike.

Well, whatever floats your boat, but if you can find any regular road
cyclist here aside from yourself who'd sooner do hairpins at 35 with
lowrider panniers than without a load at all I'd be fairly surprised:
I've never come across the folk that get a lift up big passes to zoom
down adding extra weights to their forks to make life easier...

The only bike I've ridden where lowriders don't detract from the
handling at all is the Streetmachine, but that "cheats" with the load
underneath the rider between the wheels, rather than directly loading
the steering mechanism.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[JohnB]

Gonzalez wrote:

> It used to be common in the TdF for riders to be passed water bottles
> at the cols. Now they have set feeding stations after some wag loaded
> his bike with lead water bottles before descending.

I thought it was more to do with being passed dubious substances,
although I suppose lead could be classified as such.

John B

[Peter Clinch]

Gonzalez wrote:

> It used to be common in the TdF for riders to be passed water bottles
> at the cols. Now they have set feeding stations after some wag loaded
> his bike with lead water bottles before descending. Of course this
> was to help with speed, not handling - nevertheless, I feel very
> stable descending with laden panniers.

Would carrying extra weight in a bottle really help with the descent
speed?
But in any case, weight mounted under the rider's centre of mass in the
main frame will cause rather different behaviour to loading the steering
forks as lowriders do.

I'm not saying laden front panniers make the bike badly unstable, just
that they have a negative effect compared to an unladen bike. I did say
higher up the thread that splitting big loads front and rear made the
bike far more stable than putting it all on the back.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[Gawnsoft]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:03:12 +0100, Peter Clinch
> wrote (more or less):

>Gonzalez wrote:
>
>> It used to be common in the TdF for riders to be passed water bottles
>> at the cols. Now they have set feeding stations after some wag loaded
>> his bike with lead water bottles before descending. Of course this
>> was to help with speed, not handling - nevertheless, I feel very
>> stable descending with laden panniers.
>
>Would carrying extra weight in a bottle really help with the descent
>speed?

They shouldn't, for the same reason that pendulums don't swing faster
if you make the bob heavier.

The extra weight makes for extra 'dropping' force.

But the extra weight needs extra force to move it. In fact, extra
force that's exactly the same as the extra dropping force.

......but, a bike going down a hill always has significant air
resistance acting upon it, and it becomes more significant with the
square of the speed attained - so when high speeds are attained, like
on long descents, it can easily be having more effect than rolling
resistance.

If the weights were made so that they did not affect the shape of the
bike + biker, the air resistance would become smaller relative to the
force due to gravity, and therefore lead weights would help keep speed
up (or increase the top speed possible)

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
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Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

[Mark South]

"Gawnsoft" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:03:12 +0100, Peter Clinch
> > wrote (more or less):
>
> >Gonzalez wrote:
> >
> >> It used to be common in the TdF for riders to be passed water bottles
> >> at the cols. Now they have set feeding stations after some wag loaded
> >> his bike with lead water bottles before descending. Of course this
> >> was to help with speed, not handling - nevertheless, I feel very
> >> stable descending with laden panniers.
> >
> >Would carrying extra weight in a bottle really help with the descent
> >speed?
>
> They shouldn't, for the same reason that pendulums don't swing faster
> if you make the bob heavier.
>
> The extra weight makes for extra 'dropping' force.
>
> But the extra weight needs extra force to move it. In fact, extra
> force that's exactly the same as the extra dropping force.
>
> .....but, a bike going down a hill always has significant air
> resistance acting upon it, and it becomes more significant with the
> square of the speed attained - so when high speeds are attained, like
> on long descents, it can easily be having more effect than rolling
> resistance.
>
> If the weights were made so that they did not affect the shape of the
> bike + biker, the air resistance would become smaller relative to the
> force due to gravity, and therefore lead weights would help keep speed
> up (or increase the top speed possible)

Please reassure us that you don't work in physics or engineering! :-)
--
"Mango sorbet is clearcut proof that we have progressed beyond the
bare needs of survival and have progressed to the transcendant."
- Marc Goodman in talk.bizarre

[Arthur Clune]

Peter Clinch > wrote:

: I'm not saying laden front panniers make the bike badly unstable, just
: that they have a negative effect compared to an unladen bike. I did say
: higher up the thread that splitting big loads front and rear made the
: bike far more stable than putting it all on the back.

I remember reading an article in the CTC mag where the author rode with
French tourists in the Alps and they used front panniers only to give
better handling that having the same weight in rear panniers.

Of course, handling was still worse than it would have been without
the luggage.

And this is the complete opposite of what the OP was originally proposing...

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

[Gawnsoft]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:40:51 +0200, "Mark South"
> wrote (more or less):

>Please reassure us that you don't work in physics or engineering! :-)

Please feel reassured. I'm a social scientist!


--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

[Mark South]

"Gawnsoft" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:40:51 +0200, "Mark South"
> > wrote (more or less):
>
> >Please reassure us that you don't work in physics or engineering! :-)
>
> Please feel reassured. I'm a social scientist!

Is that pair of sentences a syllogism?

I can't think of anything more frightening than a social scientist :-)
--
Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen

[Gawnsoft]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:27:24 +0200, "Mark South"
> wrote (more or less):

>"Gawnsoft" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:40:51 +0200, "Mark South"
>> > wrote (more or less):
>>
>> >Please reassure us that you don't work in physics or engineering! :-)
>>
>> Please feel reassured. I'm a social scientist!
>
>Is that pair of sentences a syllogism?
>
>I can't think of anything more frightening than a social scientist :-)

An engineer who's not civil?


--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
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Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

[Dave Larrington]

Mark South wrote:

> I can't think of anything more frightening than a social scientist
> :-)

Civil servants who are neither civil nor servile?

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
================================================== =========
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
================================================== =========

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:22:22 +0100, "Dave Larrington" >
wrote in message >:

>Civil servants who are neither civil nor servile?

Apropos of nothing much, I came across this gem the other day:
<url:http://www.abd.org.uk/otr/otr15web.pdf>

"RTS want cars banned from city centres, with hardliners seeing this
as a first step towards the goal of outlawing all motor vehicles and
rethinking economic activity based on zero growth. The group's leader
is an Oxfrod graduate, Roger Geffen, aged 31. His father, Dr Terence
Geffen, a former under-secretary at the Department of Health, is
reported to be "disappointed" when his son gave up work to become a
full-time protester, but who agrees with his ideas about cars. This
is evdence of the supportive link between the very top of the civil
service bureaucracy and the hardline eco terrorists that the ABD has
long suspected."

Amusing that Reclaim The Streets are "hardline eco-terrorists", doubly
amusing that a vague statement from one retired civil servant should
be taken as proof of a link between Government and these same hardline
eco-terrorists!

Still, I suppose it would be too much to expect ABD to be rational.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University