Re: Tyler Hamilton medal in jeopardy

[Ken]

Harold Buck > wrote in news:no_one_knows-
:
> I thought the whole point of blood doping was to save your own blood and
> then add it back before competition so it was not easy to prove you'd
> done anything wrong. Or am I way off base?

There are different techniques for blood doping. Until this year,
transfusions of someone else's blood were impossible to detect.

[Per Elmsäter]

Ken wrote:
> Harold Buck > wrote in news:no_one_knows-
> :
>> I thought the whole point of blood doping was to save your own blood
>> and then add it back before competition so it was not easy to prove
>> you'd done anything wrong. Or am I way off base?
>
> There are different techniques for blood doping. Until this year,
> transfusions of someone else's blood were impossible to detect.

So. Does LA sell his own blood after the tour?
--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

[trg]

"Ken" > a écrit dans le message de
...
> Harold Buck > wrote in news:no_one_knows-
> :
> > I thought the whole point of blood doping was to save your own blood and
> > then add it back before competition so it was not easy to prove you'd
> > done anything wrong. Or am I way off base?
>
> There are different techniques for blood doping. Until this year,
> transfusions of someone else's blood were impossible to detect.

The boosting effects of lood transfusions don't last more than 6 weeks and
saved blood can not be kept for more than 18O days, so if Tyler wanted to
have a transfusions of his own blood for the Vuelta, he would have had to
have taken it after the season was underway. (April at the earliest) Sort of
self defeating to give blood while you're racing.

[gym gravity]

trg wrote:

>
> The boosting effects of lood transfusions don't last more than 6 weeks and
> saved blood can not be kept for more than 18O days, so if Tyler wanted to
> have a transfusions of his own blood for the Vuelta, he would have had to
> have taken it after the season was underway. (April at the earliest) Sort of
> self defeating to give blood while you're racing.
>

I'm on Tyler's side so to speak, but lots of these guys take a month off
of racing in May or June to do "altitude training" or "reconnaissance of
the mountain stages" or "solo training". A month here and there is
plenty of time, and not too much. Tyler's case is different though.

[Stephen Ferguson]

Whatever.

At least David Millar had big enough balls to
tell the truth when he was confronted with the evidence
of his cheating.

Whether you like it or not, your all American boy is a
dirty little cheat. Now maybe you can all stop whacking
each other off about his broken collar-bone. Pretty clear
now that his performances in 2003 were down to Uncle
Bjarne's bag of tricks.

F.

"gym gravity" > wrote in message
...
> trg wrote:
>
> >
> > The boosting effects of lood transfusions don't last more than 6 weeks
and
> > saved blood can not be kept for more than 18O days, so if Tyler wanted
to
> > have a transfusions of his own blood for the Vuelta, he would have had
to
> > have taken it after the season was underway. (April at the earliest)
Sort of
> > self defeating to give blood while you're racing.
> >
>
> I'm on Tyler's side so to speak, but lots of these guys take a month off
> of racing in May or June to do "altitude training" or "reconnaissance of
> the mountain stages" or "solo training". A month here and there is
> plenty of time, and not too much. Tyler's case is different though.

[Mark Hickey]

"Per Elmsäter" > wrote:

>Ken wrote:
>> Harold Buck > wrote in news:no_one_knows-
>> :
>>> I thought the whole point of blood doping was to save your own blood
>>> and then add it back before competition so it was not easy to prove
>>> you'd done anything wrong. Or am I way off base?
>>
>> There are different techniques for blood doping. Until this year,
>> transfusions of someone else's blood were impossible to detect.
>
>So. Does LA sell his own blood after the tour?

Sign me up for a quart! ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

[Fabrizio Mazzoleni]

"Mark Hickey" > wrote in message ...
> "Per Elmsäter" > wrote:
> >
> >So. Does LA sell his own blood after the tour?
>
> Sign me up for a quart! ;-)
>

A bit overrated.

I was very disappointed to see Lance taking 1:06:49 to ride the 55km
stage 19 time trial at Besancon this year. That stage should have been
done with a sub 1:06 time.

[Zoot Katz]

Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:08:32 GMT, >,
"Per Elmsäter" > wrote:

>> There are different techniques for blood doping. Until this year,
>> transfusions of someone else's blood were impossible to detect.
>
>So. Does LA sell his own blood after the tour?

Dick Pound was talking about gene doping on national media today so
it's easy to guess that we're on the threshold of it becoming a bigger
issue. Gosh, I wonder if anybody we know has already been using this
technology?

Gene manipulation has the potential to increase muscle mass in mice by
25 percent in just two weeks. Gene therapy is presently used to treat
serious muscle diseases.

If we see non-invasive tests for gene doping developed, we'll see who
puts up the most resistance to UCI adopting these test. I predict that
when it is adopted we'll see big name athletes suddenly "retiring"
from competition.
--
zk

[Greg Gargett]

> Here's what I've gathered about gene doping:
>
> Yes, they're getting great results with rats.
>
> If humans start doing it, the only current way to test for it is with a
> (painful) muscle biopsy.
>
> However, my friend, the medical student, told me that right now they
> don't have any way to deliver the genes to humans. Well, that's not
> exactly right. Here's what he said:
>
> > While there are potentially millions
> > of applications for gene therapy, including amping up muscle
> > size/strength/endurance, the appropriate vector for cell transfection
(like
> > an artificially cultured adenovirus (think common cold virus)) is a
major
> > problem. To date, every known vector has caused lymphoma/leukemia in
the
> > patient that receives it. We got lots of genes...just no way to safely
get
> > them into cells without causing cancer.

It appears MDA researchers may be close to solving the delivery vector issue
for dystrophin replacement therapy anyway. Still in the MDX mouse testing
stage but good progress is being made.

http://www.mdausa.org/news/040725genedelivery.html

According to the article the therapy is fairly simple: only the introduction
of the gene payload-carrying adeno virus and a couple of helper drugs. I
suppose this method could carry just about any genetic payload you'd want
once it's perfected.

However, how soon this type of therapy will be available to your typical
athletic cheater can only be described as "not any time soon," I'll venture.

>
> Here's an article about gene doping for those who are interested:
> http://tinyurl.com/3dro9
>

[Sam]

We are not mice.
"Zoot Katz" > wrote in message
...
> Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:08:32 GMT, >,
> "Per Elmsäter" > wrote:
>
> >> There are different techniques for blood doping. Until this year,
> >> transfusions of someone else's blood were impossible to detect.
> >
> >So. Does LA sell his own blood after the tour?
>
> Dick Pound was talking about gene doping on national media today so
> it's easy to guess that we're on the threshold of it becoming a bigger
> issue. Gosh, I wonder if anybody we know has already been using this
> technology?
>
> Gene manipulation has the potential to increase muscle mass in mice by
> 25 percent in just two weeks. Gene therapy is presently used to treat
> serious muscle diseases.
>
> If we see non-invasive tests for gene doping developed, we'll see who
> puts up the most resistance to UCI adopting these test. I predict that
> when it is adopted we'll see big name athletes suddenly "retiring"
> from competition.
> --
> zk

[DemMan]

Because you've done it in what, 1:05?

http://www.warisnottheanswer.net/

"Fabrizio Mazzoleni" > wrote in message
news:Taq4d.478083$M95.1963@pd7tw1no...
>
> "Mark Hickey" > wrote in message
...
> > "Per Elmsäter" > wrote:
> > >
> > >So. Does LA sell his own blood after the tour?
> >
> > Sign me up for a quart! ;-)
> >
>
> A bit overrated.
>
> I was very disappointed to see Lance taking 1:06:49 to ride the 55km
> stage 19 time trial at Besancon this year. That stage should have been
> done with a sub 1:06 time.
>
>
>
>
>

[Luigi de Guzman]

Mark Hickey wrote:

>>So. Does LA sell his own blood after the tour?
>
> Sign me up for a quart! ;-)
>
or even a Liter.

-Luigi
--
www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
Photos, Rants, Raves

[Ewoud Dronkert]

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:19:36 -0500, Harold Buck wrote:
> Here's an article about gene doping for those who are interested:
> http://tinyurl.com/3dro9

Scientific American had a feature on it a while back.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000E7ACE-5686-10CF-94EB83414B7F0000&sc=I100322
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0000EEC3-5D64-10CF-94EB83414B7F0000&sc=I100322

Also see http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994688

[Sonarrat]

"Fabrizio Mazzoleni" > wrote in message news:<Taq4d.478083$M95.1963@pd7tw1no>...
> "Mark Hickey" > wrote in message ...
> > "Per Elmsäter" > wrote:
> > >
> > >So. Does LA sell his own blood after the tour?
> >
> > Sign me up for a quart! ;-)
> >
>
> A bit overrated.
>
> I was very disappointed to see Lance taking 1:06:49 to ride the 55km
> stage 19 time trial at Besancon this year. That stage should have been
> done with a sub 1:06 time.

I'm not defending LA because I like him - but it simply doesn't matter
what time he did it in. If the winner of a World Championship takes 10
hours for 300 km, he was still the fastest rider that day.

Anyway, it seems like aside from the trackies, the trend this year is
slow. The Soria - Zaragoza stage of the Vuelta was some 17 km/h
slower than when Igor Gonzalez de Galdeano won it.

-Sonarrat.

[Per Elmsäter]

Fabrizio Mazzoleni wrote:
> "Mark Hickey" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Per Elmsäter" > wrote:
>>>
>>> So. Does LA sell his own blood after the tour?
>>
>> Sign me up for a quart! ;-)
>>
>
> A bit overrated.
>
> I was very disappointed to see Lance taking 1:06:49 to ride the 55km
> stage 19 time trial at Besancon this year. That stage should have been
> done with a sub 1:06 time.

I bet you're just saying that out of disappointment in the price you paid
for that last quart you scored ;)

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

[Fabrizio Mazzoleni]

"DemMan" > wrote in message ...
> Because you've done it in what, 1:05?
>

According to my July 24th training journal data, yes
I would have.

[Zoot Katz]

Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:49:28 GMT, <YpI4d.83581$%S.51544@pd7tw2no>,
Perennially the Pro, "Fabrizio Mazzoleni" > proved:

>> Because you've done it in what, 1:05?
>>
>
>According to my July 24th training journal data, yes
>I would have.
>
Yep, right on target and the numbers can't lie.
--
zk