Ever blinded by your helmet?

[B Paton]

I was thinking about my own helmet use the other day, particularly in
response to the helmet issue here in Ontario.

It occurred to me that helmet-wearing actually creates hazards for users
under certain circumstances.

For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents when
air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes. The oily,
salty sweat causes near-total blindness for 3-10 seconds before the tear
ducts can flush them out. Knowing that the helmet will partially protect me
from the hazard it causes is not comforting. It's occured with every helmet
I have ever owned. It occurs frequently while riding around here. It is a
hilly area with lots of 6--12% grades.

I was wondering who else has experienced this feature of bike helmets. Is it
my physical features that are at issue, do I just ride too hard, or what?

Thanks, note the spam trap in the reply address.

Blake

[do not spam]

In article >,
B Paton > wrote:
>For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents when
>air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes.

Try a headband.

[Bruce Frech]

"do not spam" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> B Paton > wrote:
>>For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents when
>>air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes.
>
> Try a headband.

Or try not wearing a helmet.

I've had the same problem and I cannot wear sunglasses when wearing a helmet
on some hot rides. So add my example to your database of riders with
negative aspects of helmet wearing. A headband can only hold so much and
then the problem continues. Not wearing a helmet works much better.

Bruce

[do not spam]

In article <vtxkd.1114$8N4.731@trndny09>,
Bruce Frech > wrote:
>I've had the same problem and I cannot wear sunglasses when wearing a helmet
>on some hot rides.

Modern wicking headbands can evaporate sweat almost as fast as they
absorb it. Some of these headbands have a tail to enlarge the evaporation
area and encourage any excess sweat to drip off the back. I use a thin
$2 headband and never have trouble with sweat in my eyes.

[psycholist]

"do not spam" > wrote in message
...
> In article <vtxkd.1114$8N4.731@trndny09>,
> Bruce Frech > wrote:
>>I've had the same problem and I cannot wear sunglasses when wearing a
>>helmet
>>on some hot rides.
>
> Modern wicking headbands can evaporate sweat almost as fast as they
> absorb it. Some of these headbands have a tail to enlarge the evaporation
> area and encourage any excess sweat to drip off the back. I use a thin
> $2 headband and never have trouble with sweat in my eyes.

Efficiencies of individuals evaporative cooling systems vary greatly. I'm a
very profuse sweater. I'm sure I've tried every product on the market in
the way of headbands. I've even purchased moppping products that advertise
super-absorbancy. I've cut them up into headbands. Nothing keeps me from
saturating the headband and suffering burning sweat in my eyes. And those
ones that use the rubber gasket to channel sweat behind the ears ... total
rip-off as far as I'm concerned. The best thing I've ever found is the old
tried-and-true bandana. But on hot days, I have to remove it and just let
the sweat pour down my face.

As for how the helmet plays into all of this ... I'm not going there.

Bob C.

[PK]

psycholist wrote:
> "do not spam" > wrote in message

> The best thing I've ever found is the old
> tried-and-true bandana. But on hot days, I have to remove it and
> just let the sweat pour down my face.
>

Panty pad stuck to the inside of the helmet - great absorbency.

pk

[dgk]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:08:32 +0000 (UTC), (do not spam)
wrote:

>In article >,
>B Paton > wrote:
>>For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents when
>>air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes.
>
>Try a headband.

I used a headband under my helmet to protect my cold ears the other
day and the headband slid down and started covering my eyes. It was
difficult to get it out of my eyes until I stopped and reset the mess.
I like wearing the helmet but it did present a problem that time. I
have gotten better at headband placement since then.

[Patrick Lamb]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:27:23 GMT, "Bruce Frech"
> wrote:
>
>"do not spam" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> B Paton > wrote:
>>>For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents when
>>>air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes.
>>
>> Try a headband.
>
>Or try not wearing a helmet.

Maybe I'm a +3-sigma sweat-er, but neither of these has worked
reliably for me. IME, I can saturate a headband with or without a
helmet. And the headband catches sweat before it hits my eyes, with
or without a helmet. On really hot, humid days, I've found I need to
stop every 45-60 minutes and squeeze or wring out the headband or
bandanna. And while I'm at it, squeeze out those puny sweat
collectors/concentrators in my helmet.

So, keep looking for some new danger to blame on helmets.

Pat

Email address works as is.

[psycholist]

"Patrick Lamb" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:27:23 GMT, "Bruce Frech"
> > wrote:
>>
>>"do not spam" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article >,
>>> B Paton > wrote:
>>>>For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents
>>>>when
>>>>air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes.
>>>
>>> Try a headband.
>>
>>Or try not wearing a helmet.
>
> Maybe I'm a +3-sigma sweat-er, but neither of these has worked
> reliably for me. IME, I can saturate a headband with or without a
> helmet. And the headband catches sweat before it hits my eyes, with
> or without a helmet. On really hot, humid days, I've found I need to
> stop every 45-60 minutes and squeeze or wring out the headband or
> bandanna. And while I'm at it, squeeze out those puny sweat
> collectors/concentrators in my helmet.
>
> So, keep looking for some new danger to blame on helmets.
>
> Pat
>
> Email address works as is.


EEEeeeewwwwww! NO! ... just ... NO!

Bob C.

[Bruce Frech]

"Patrick Lamb" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:27:23 GMT, "Bruce Frech"
> > wrote:
>>
...........
>>Or try not wearing a helmet.
>
> Maybe I'm a +3-sigma sweat-er, but neither of these has worked
> reliably for me. IME, I can saturate a headband with or without a
> helmet. And the headband catches sweat before it hits my eyes, with
> or without a helmet. On really hot, humid days, I've found I need to
> stop every 45-60 minutes and squeeze or wring out the headband or
> bandanna. And while I'm at it, squeeze out those puny sweat
> collectors/concentrators in my helmet.
>
> So, keep looking for some new danger to blame on helmets.
>
> Pat

When you are in a race you can't stop and squeeze the headband. I've found
the only way to keep excessive sweat going into my eyes is to wipe with my
hand and I can't do that well when wearing sunglasses and a helmet.

Bruce

[paul r]

Bruce Frech wrote:
> "Patrick Lamb" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:27:23 GMT, "Bruce Frech"
> wrote:
>>
> ..........
>
>>>Or try not wearing a helmet.
>>
>>Maybe I'm a +3-sigma sweat-er, but neither of these has worked
>>reliably for me. IME, I can saturate a headband with or without a
>>helmet. And the headband catches sweat before it hits my eyes, with
>>or without a helmet. On really hot, humid days, I've found I need to
>>stop every 45-60 minutes and squeeze or wring out the headband or
>>bandanna. And while I'm at it, squeeze out those puny sweat
>>collectors/concentrators in my helmet.
>>
>>So, keep looking for some new danger to blame on helmets.
>>
>>Pat
>
>
> When you are in a race you can't stop and squeeze the headband. I've found
> the only way to keep excessive sweat going into my eyes is to wipe with my
> hand and I can't do that well when wearing sunglasses and a helmet.
>
> Bruce
>
>

For me, when mountain biking, going without a helmet is not an option.
I've also had the problem of helmet leakage and sweat blindage. Not to
mention my enormous bushy eyebrows that act like sponges and splooge out
a mess o' sweat at inoportune times.

I found a great solution - a headwize (sp? or something like that)
headband. It's designed with a light terry on the inside and a wicking
material on the outside. It works great for me. I only have to wring it
out after a couple of hours riding (and it holds buckets!). And it holds
my helmet in place.

Cheers,
Paul

[Rick]

B Paton wrote:
> I was thinking about my own helmet use the other day, particularly in
> response to the helmet issue here in Ontario.
>
> It occurred to me that helmet-wearing actually creates hazards for users
> under certain circumstances.
>
> For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents when
> air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes.

....stuff deleted

Yup, common problem here. On really hot days, I ride without the helmet,
though I have this problem with hats as well. As others pointed out,
sweatbands don't work for me, for whatever reason. I can outsweat the
best of them, and have. I can also sweat below a headband sufficiently
to have this problem as well (just what sweats from my eyebrows reaches
my eyes, I sweat that much). The headband, I find, actually warms the
head and I sweat more profusely with same than without.

Insects, however, are a more significant problem for me. I ride fast
enough that they can't get out of the way, I guess. I have to wear
glasses or goggles or, as I learned one spring day in Davis, a bug in
the eye is painful. Worse if a you get one in the second eye while you
are trying to clean out the first. I remember fumbling for the brakes
when this happened. I've worn shades since.

Rick

[Bill Z.]

"B Paton" > writes:

> I was thinking about my own helmet use the other day, particularly in
> response to the helmet issue here in Ontario.
>
> It occurred to me that helmet-wearing actually creates hazards for users
> under certain circumstances.
>
> For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents when
> air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes. The oily,
> salty sweat causes near-total blindness for 3-10 seconds before the tear
> ducts can flush them out. Knowing that the helmet will partially protect me
> from the hazard it causes is not comforting. It's occured with every helmet
> I have ever owned. It occurs frequently while riding around here. It is a
> hilly area with lots of 6--12% grades.
>
> I was wondering who else has experienced this feature of bike helmets. Is it
> my physical features that are at issue, do I just ride too hard, or what?

If you are overheating on steep grades, you can just take the helmet off
and carry it along that part of your ride. If the steep grades are
like in my area, they are on rural roads with few intersections, so your
chances of an accident on such uphill sections are very low, and you
can't go over the handlebars at very low speeds (and the grade helps
as well.)

People react differently to heat and it is possibly worse if you
aren't in top physical condition (low body fat, etc.) but some
people in good shape overheat on flat terrain in hot weather
(even around here where the humidity is low.)

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

[Peter Cole]

"B Paton" > wrote in message
.. .
> I was thinking about my own helmet use the other day, particularly in
> response to the helmet issue here in Ontario.
>
> It occurred to me that helmet-wearing actually creates hazards for users
> under certain circumstances.
>
> For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents
when
> air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes. The oily,
> salty sweat causes near-total blindness for 3-10 seconds before the tear
> ducts can flush them out.

Many/most helmets are sold with "open cell" foam pads. These act like
sponges, soaking up sweat and concentrating it into brine. The solution is
to replace the open cell pads with closed cell pads which are not
absorbent. Your LBS should have bags full of pads, used for helmet
fittings. Replace at least the pads in the front of the helmet.

Good headbands are a necessity when wearing a helmet, I've had good luck
with the Pearl Izumi ones, pricey at $10, but work well. Other solution
used by some is to wear a cycling cap underneath the helmet.

[Michael]

"PK" > wrote in message
...
> psycholist wrote:
> > "do not spam" > wrote in message
>
> > The best thing I've ever found is the old
> > tried-and-true bandana. But on hot days, I have to remove it and
> > just let the sweat pour down my face.
> >
>
> Panty pad stuck to the inside of the helmet - great absorbency.
>
> pk
>
>

What I do is just usually suck it up. :p

I just know I'm gonna get flamed here....

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 00:54:33 +0000 (UTC), "PK"
> wrote:

>Panty pad stuck to the inside of the helmet - great absorbency.

Yuk! Bare head: sweat evaporates As Nature Intended :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

[Raptor]

I'm frequently "blinded" by my helmet, but duh: I don't ride if I don't
see. It's just impaired vision. When I forget to remove the visor for a
road bike ride, I sometimes have to peek through the air vents. I'll be
getting a separate road riding helmet.

And I sweat buckets, easily soaking the pads even on a modestly warm
day. I have to drain the pads periodically. This can be done by tipping
my head and pressing on the front of the helmet, or removing the thing
and squeezing with my fingers.

I haven't yet tried a headband, but the recommendations here for the
NON-absorbent ones is intriguing.

I also remove my helmet on long slow mtb climbs. Never on the road,
since I'm not capable of forseeing all the dumbass tricks others on the
road can play.

Michael wrote:
> What I do is just usually suck it up. :p
>
> I just know I'm gonna get flamed here....

This won't work if you have contacts (like me) and get brine on them.
They stay foggy until cleaned.

It's almost not worth wearing the thing. Almost.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

[JRKRideau]

"Peter Cole" > wrote in message news:<fOJkd.28740$5K2.10613@attbi_s03>...
> "B Paton" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > I was thinking about my own helmet use the other day, particularly in
> > response to the helmet issue here in Ontario.
> >
> > It occurred to me that helmet-wearing actually creates hazards for users
> > under certain circumstances.
> >
> > For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents
> when
> > air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes. The oily,
> > salty sweat causes near-total blindness for 3-10 seconds before the tear
> > ducts can flush them out.
>
> Many/most helmets are sold with "open cell" foam pads. These act like
> sponges, soaking up sweat and concentrating it into brine. The solution is
> to replace the open cell pads with closed cell pads which are not
> absorbent. Your LBS should have bags full of pads, used for helmet
> fittings. Replace at least the pads in the front of the helmet.
>
> Good headbands are a necessity when wearing a helmet, I've had good luck
> with the Pearl Izumi ones, pricey at $10, but work well. Other solution
> used by some is to wear a cycling cap underneath the helmet.

After two near crashes when I was blinded by this happening . Forty
plus years of cycling and 5 with a helmet. Two near crashes caused by
helmet wearing. My solution was was to discard the helmet. No problem
since then.

JohnKane
Kingston ON

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article >,
says...
>I was thinking about my own helmet use the other day, particularly in
>response to the helmet issue here in Ontario.
>It occurred to me that helmet-wearing actually creates hazards for users
>under certain circumstances.
>For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents when
>air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes. The oily,
>salty sweat causes near-total blindness for 3-10 seconds before the tear
>ducts can flush them out. Knowing that the helmet will partially protect me
>from the hazard it causes is not comforting. It's occured with every helmet
>I have ever owned. It occurs frequently while riding around here. It is a
>hilly area with lots of 6--12% grades.

You must be going amazingly fast if the air pressure squeezes the sweat out
of the pads. I've never had this problem going down hill. You might also
try wearing a sweat band. That will keep the sweat out of your eyes.
-----------------
Alex

[Frank Krygowski]

Alex Rodriguez wrote:

>
>
> You must be going amazingly fast if the air pressure squeezes the sweat out
> of the pads. I've never had this problem going down hill.

I know many people who have been bothered by this! I don't know if it's
due to the design of the helmet, or simply sweating lots, but it's a
pretty common issue.

A cycling cap soaks up sweat and helps it evaporate, and its "flip-up"
brim is handy and versatile.


--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

[Michael J. Klein]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:48:53 -0500, "B Paton"
> wrote:

>I was thinking about my own helmet use the other day, particularly in
>response to the helmet issue here in Ontario.
>
>It occurred to me that helmet-wearing actually creates hazards for users
>under certain circumstances.
>
>For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents when
>air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes. The oily,
>salty sweat causes near-total blindness for 3-10 seconds before the tear
>ducts can flush them out. Knowing that the helmet will partially protect me
>from the hazard it causes is not comforting. It's occured with every helmet
>I have ever owned. It occurs frequently while riding around here. It is a
>hilly area with lots of 6--12% grades.
>
>I was wondering who else has experienced this feature of bike helmets. Is it
>my physical features that are at issue, do I just ride too hard, or what?
>
>Thanks, note the spam trap in the reply address.
>
>Blake

I think that far more people are blinded by the statistics, rather
than the helmet itself.

Michael J. Klein
Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

[JRKRideau]

Alex Rodriguez > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> says...
> >I was thinking about my own helmet use the other day, particularly in
> >response to the helmet issue here in Ontario.
> >It occurred to me that helmet-wearing actually creates hazards for users
> >under certain circumstances.
> >For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents when
> >air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes. The oily,
> >salty sweat causes near-total blindness for 3-10 seconds before the tear
> >ducts can flush them out. Knowing that the helmet will partially protect me
> >from the hazard it causes is not comforting. It's occured with every helmet
> >I have ever owned. It occurs frequently while riding around here. It is a
> >hilly area with lots of 6--12% grades.
>
> You must be going amazingly fast if the air pressure squeezes the sweat out
> of the pads. I've never had this problem going down hill.

Not sure about Mr Patton (the OP) but it does not take air pressure to
do this. I, as mentioned before have had it happen twice. Once was at
~ 70 km/h downhill and once on the flatat about 25 km/h. All it takes
is a hot humid day and time for the pads to absorb the moisture until
they are saturated. Then all you have to do is nod your head and
suddenly your eyes are flooded with extremely salty moisture.

> You might also
> try wearing a sweat band. That will keep the sweat out of your eyes.
> -----------------
> Alex


John Kane
Kingston ON.

[GaryG]

"Peter Cole" > wrote in message
news:fOJkd.28740$5K2.10613@attbi_s03...
> "B Paton" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > I was thinking about my own helmet use the other day, particularly in
> > response to the helmet issue here in Ontario.
> >
> > It occurred to me that helmet-wearing actually creates hazards for users
> > under certain circumstances.
> >
> > For example, many times I have been blinded by sweat on fast descents
> when
> > air pressure squeeezes sweat out of the pads and into my eyes. The oily,
> > salty sweat causes near-total blindness for 3-10 seconds before the tear
> > ducts can flush them out.
>
> Many/most helmets are sold with "open cell" foam pads. These act like
> sponges, soaking up sweat and concentrating it into brine. The solution is
> to replace the open cell pads with closed cell pads which are not
> absorbent. Your LBS should have bags full of pads, used for helmet
> fittings. Replace at least the pads in the front of the helmet.
>
> Good headbands are a necessity when wearing a helmet, I've had good luck
> with the Pearl Izumi ones, pricey at $10, but work well. Other solution
> used by some is to wear a cycling cap underneath the helmet.

The "cycling cap under the helmet" approach works well in my experience. It
wicks sweat from my mostly hairless head, and keeps the sun out of my eyes.
If I'm going downhill, or spending time down low on aero bars or in the
drops, it's simple to flip it up out of the way.

FWIW, I find that wearing a helmet is often cooler than not wearing one.
Modern helmets are very well vented, and by shading your head they can make
it feel cooler than it would otherwise be. If I was doing a long hot climb,
and had to choose between a dark colored cycling cap (e.g., this year's
Postal team cap), and a good helmet, the helmet would win out.

Disclaimer: my opinions are influenced by my lack of head hair, and by the
fact that I live in an area where 20% relative humidity is considered
"muggy" (but daytime summer temps can often exceed 100 degrees F). YMMV

--
~_-*
....G/ \G
http://www.CycliStats.com
CycliStats - Software for Cyclists

[Peter Cole]

"GaryG" > wrote
>
> The "cycling cap under the helmet" approach works well in my experience.
It
> wicks sweat from my mostly hairless head, and keeps the sun out of my
eyes.
> If I'm going downhill, or spending time down low on aero bars or in the
> drops, it's simple to flip it up out of the way.

I wear a helmet with a visor. It works the same to keep sun out and rain
off my glasses, I also flip it up when in a tuck. Getting brine in the eyes
used to be a problem before I swapped out the pads to non-absorbent ones.
Sometimes just turning my head would (via the strap) put enough pressure on
the pads to squeeze them out.

[GaryG]

"Peter Cole" > wrote in message
news:Zeqmd.94045$HA.53463@attbi_s01...
> "GaryG" > wrote
> >
> > The "cycling cap under the helmet" approach works well in my experience.
> It
> > wicks sweat from my mostly hairless head, and keeps the sun out of my
> eyes.
> > If I'm going downhill, or spending time down low on aero bars or in the
> > drops, it's simple to flip it up out of the way.
>
> I wear a helmet with a visor. It works the same to keep sun out and rain
> off my glasses, I also flip it up when in a tuck. Getting brine in the
eyes
> used to be a problem before I swapped out the pads to non-absorbent ones.
> Sometimes just turning my head would (via the strap) put enough pressure
on
> the pads to squeeze them out.
>

For mountain biking I use a helmet visor, but for road riding I find they
either weigh too much, or catch too much wind, resulting in a sore neck on
long rides. Also, they don't solve my need to keep the sun off of my
scalp - I've had "helmet stripe sunburn" once, and that was enough!

GG

[Peter Cole]

"GaryG" > wrote
>
> For mountain biking I use a helmet visor,

I use the same helmet for both. I think a visor is really a disavantage
off-road, since sunlight isn't a problem in the woods, and it blocks
overhead peripheral vision.

> but for road riding I find they
> either weigh too much, or catch too much wind, resulting in a sore neck
on
> long rides.

You're pulling my leg, right?

[GaryG]

"Peter Cole" > wrote in message
news:Fptmd.40183$V41.12470@attbi_s52...
> "GaryG" > wrote
> >
> > For mountain biking I use a helmet visor,
>
> I use the same helmet for both. I think a visor is really a disavantage
> off-road, since sunlight isn't a problem in the woods, and it blocks
> overhead peripheral vision.
>
> > but for road riding I find they
> > either weigh too much, or catch too much wind, resulting in a sore neck
> on
> > long rides.
>
> You're pulling my leg, right?
>

Not at all. Unless I'm sitting pretty upright (like on a mountain bike or
cruiser), my neck muscles can feel the difference after a long day. The
weight of the visor is out in front, and it does catch wind (especially at
higher speeds). However, it's been a number of years since I tried a visor
on a road bike helmet - perhaps they've gotten lighter and/or more
aerodynamic since I last used one. It might also depend on your position on
the bike (I usually ride pretty low, even when on the hoods).

I assume I'm not the only one that feels this way...on typical tours and
century rides that I take part in, I doubt that one rider in 50 wears a
visor.

GG

[Peter Cole]

"GaryG" > wrote in message
...

> Not at all. Unless I'm sitting pretty upright (like on a mountain bike
or
> cruiser), my neck muscles can feel the difference after a long day. The
> weight of the visor is out in front, and it does catch wind (especially
at
> higher speeds). However, it's been a number of years since I tried a
visor
> on a road bike helmet - perhaps they've gotten lighter and/or more
> aerodynamic since I last used one. It might also depend on your position
on
> the bike (I usually ride pretty low, even when on the hoods).
>
> I assume I'm not the only one that feels this way...on typical tours and
> century rides that I take part in, I doubt that one rider in 50 wears a
> visor.

Yeah, but I think that's a style thing. Almost everybody wears a visor'ed
helmet off-road and I can't think of any advantage to that if you ride in
the woods.

I don't know how much my visor weighs, but I'm pretty sure it adds less
than 10% to the weight of a helmet. That's been true for the ~10 years I've
been wearing a couple of (Bell) helmets. As for the aerodynamics, I don't
know, I don't feel any effect, I don't take it off to time trial, nor do I
get any fatigue, at least not on the up to 250 miles I have ridden in ultra
events. BTW, I usually ride low enough for my thighs to touch my ribs.