Wheel building questions

[big Pete]

Hi all,

I have some questions about wheel building. I want to build my bac
wheel myself. Cross 3 pattern 14 gauge stainless steal spokes.
finally got my hub and caste that is compatible with my suntou
component set. I have dishing questions. I know the spoke length ar
different on the drive side and non drive side and that dose help wit
the dishing, but without a dish stick how do I know I got the dishin
correct? Is it possible to build a dish stick? If so how? I use my bik
as the truing stand this trick has work well for me for many years ..
but it was only used to true a wheels that have been already built. M
wheel building experience thus far is that I have swapped hubs out o
my mtb bike (i.e. replaced my low level hub with a nice higher end hub
These hubs had the same dimension so I did not have to get new spoke
and calculate spoke length. How do I calculate what length spokes
need? I saw some calculators on the web but I am interested i
mathematical formula. I have read Brown's page on wheel building.

Thank you all

Pet

--
big Pete

[Mike Borean]

I have built 6 wheels from scratch with no experience other that which I
yielded from the web and Sheldon Brown's book. Before I even attempted I
purchased a park tools truing stand which will take care of the dish as it
centers the rim on the hub as well as telling you the "hop". My LBS looked
at the wheels and was impressed (maybe he was being polite as I am a good
customer). I wouldn't mess with the formulas as a rookie. The spoke length
calculators on the web worked great. Cannot remember which calculator I
used as I downloaded a few and they all gave me the same results.

I found wheel building much easier and enjoyable than I thought it would be.
I also found out that I didn't really save any money, but if I was looking
for effiency, my bikes would have motors on them.

Good luck.
Mike Borean

"big Pete" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have some questions about wheel building. I want to build my back
> wheel myself. Cross 3 pattern 14 gauge stainless steal spokes. I
> finally got my hub and caste that is compatible with my suntour
> component set. I have dishing questions. I know the spoke length are
> different on the drive side and non drive side and that dose help with
> the dishing, but without a dish stick how do I know I got the dishing
> correct? Is it possible to build a dish stick? If so how? I use my bike
> as the truing stand this trick has work well for me for many years ...
> but it was only used to true a wheels that have been already built. My
> wheel building experience thus far is that I have swapped hubs out of
> my mtb bike (i.e. replaced my low level hub with a nice higher end hub)
> These hubs had the same dimension so I did not have to get new spokes
> and calculate spoke length. How do I calculate what length spokes I
> need? I saw some calculators on the web but I am interested in
> mathematical formula. I have read Brown's page on wheel building.
>
> Thank you all
>
> Pete
>
>
> --
> big Pete
>

[Mike Borean]

I have built 6 wheels from scratch with no experience other that which I
yielded from the web and Sheldon Brown's book. Before I even attempted I
purchased a park tools truing stand which will take care of the dish as it
centers the rim on the hub as well as telling you the "hop". My LBS looked
at the wheels and was impressed (maybe he was being polite as I am a good
customer). I wouldn't mess with the formulas as a rookie. The spoke length
calculators on the web worked great. Cannot remember which calculator I
used as I downloaded a few and they all gave me the same results.

I found wheel building much easier and enjoyable than I thought it would be.
I also found out that I didn't really save any money, but if I was looking
for effiency, my bikes would have motors on them.

Good luck.
Mike Borean

"big Pete" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have some questions about wheel building. I want to build my back
> wheel myself. Cross 3 pattern 14 gauge stainless steal spokes. I
> finally got my hub and caste that is compatible with my suntour
> component set. I have dishing questions. I know the spoke length are
> different on the drive side and non drive side and that dose help with
> the dishing, but without a dish stick how do I know I got the dishing
> correct? Is it possible to build a dish stick? If so how? I use my bike
> as the truing stand this trick has work well for me for many years ...
> but it was only used to true a wheels that have been already built. My
> wheel building experience thus far is that I have swapped hubs out of
> my mtb bike (i.e. replaced my low level hub with a nice higher end hub)
> These hubs had the same dimension so I did not have to get new spokes
> and calculate spoke length. How do I calculate what length spokes I
> need? I saw some calculators on the web but I am interested in
> mathematical formula. I have read Brown's page on wheel building.
>
> Thank you all
>
> Pete
>
>
> --
> big Pete
>

[m-gineering]

big Pete wrote:
but without a dish stick how do I know I got the dishing
> correct? Is it possible to build a dish stick? If so how?

If you're on the road I would recommend to go to a cafe and buy two or
three beers. After emptying these rest your wheel with the rim on the
glasses and eyeball the distance between axlenut and ashtray or
whatever. Flip the wheel over as with a regular dish stick.

--
---
Marten

[m-gineering]

big Pete wrote:
but without a dish stick how do I know I got the dishing
> correct? Is it possible to build a dish stick? If so how?

If you're on the road I would recommend to go to a cafe and buy two or
three beers. After emptying these rest your wheel with the rim on the
glasses and eyeball the distance between axlenut and ashtray or
whatever. Flip the wheel over as with a regular dish stick.

--
---
Marten

[Zog The Undeniable]

big Pete wrote:

> Is it possible to build a dish stick? If so how?

Easy. Get a flat piece of material, about wheel diameter length and a
few inches across, with a known flat surface on one side. A piece of
old Formica kitchen cabinet is good.

Using a coping saw, sculpt away enough of the material on the "flat"
side to clear the spokes. In the middle of the curve you've created,
screw in a big woodscrew (so the head is inside the curve).

To check dish simply put the flat edge on the rim and adjust the screw
until it rests on the locknut. Flip the wheel over and check the
measurement is the same on the other side.

[Zog The Undeniable]

big Pete wrote:

> Is it possible to build a dish stick? If so how?

Easy. Get a flat piece of material, about wheel diameter length and a
few inches across, with a known flat surface on one side. A piece of
old Formica kitchen cabinet is good.

Using a coping saw, sculpt away enough of the material on the "flat"
side to clear the spokes. In the middle of the curve you've created,
screw in a big woodscrew (so the head is inside the curve).

To check dish simply put the flat edge on the rim and adjust the screw
until it rests on the locknut. Flip the wheel over and check the
measurement is the same on the other side.

[Art M]

I've rebuilt wheels on a bike when I was on a tight budget. It can be done
using the brakes for lateral adjustments and a straight edge along the seat
stays for roundness (no tire on rim). Amount of dish is irrelevant. The rim
just has to be in the center and that can be checked by flipping the wheel
over and checking that rim is in the same place. The problem with that is in
getting the brakes centered. If the rim is off center that makes adjusting
the breaks so that they are centered difficult. They are centered when the
same spot on the rim is as close to one break pad as it is to the other when
the wheel is flipped.

As to spoke length measurement stick with the calculators. The formula isn't
a big deal (mostly geometry with an adjustment for spoke stretch), but you
would have to make all kinds of precise measurements of flange distance from
center of hub, spoke hole distance from center, etc. Most of the calculators
have extensive databases that make measurements unnecessary.

Check out http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm
It's an excel spreadsheet so you should be able to inspect the formulas.

--Art


"big Pete" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have some questions about wheel building. I want to build my back
> wheel myself. Cross 3 pattern 14 gauge stainless steal spokes. I
> finally got my hub and caste that is compatible with my suntour
> component set. I have dishing questions. I know the spoke length are
> different on the drive side and non drive side and that dose help with
> the dishing, but without a dish stick how do I know I got the dishing
> correct? Is it possible to build a dish stick? If so how? I use my bike
> as the truing stand this trick has work well for me for many years ...
> but it was only used to true a wheels that have been already built. My
> wheel building experience thus far is that I have swapped hubs out of
> my mtb bike (i.e. replaced my low level hub with a nice higher end hub)
> These hubs had the same dimension so I did not have to get new spokes
> and calculate spoke length. How do I calculate what length spokes I
> need? I saw some calculators on the web but I am interested in
> mathematical formula. I have read Brown's page on wheel building.
>
> Thank you all
>
> Pete
>
>
> --
> big Pete
>

[Art M]

I've rebuilt wheels on a bike when I was on a tight budget. It can be done
using the brakes for lateral adjustments and a straight edge along the seat
stays for roundness (no tire on rim). Amount of dish is irrelevant. The rim
just has to be in the center and that can be checked by flipping the wheel
over and checking that rim is in the same place. The problem with that is in
getting the brakes centered. If the rim is off center that makes adjusting
the breaks so that they are centered difficult. They are centered when the
same spot on the rim is as close to one break pad as it is to the other when
the wheel is flipped.

As to spoke length measurement stick with the calculators. The formula isn't
a big deal (mostly geometry with an adjustment for spoke stretch), but you
would have to make all kinds of precise measurements of flange distance from
center of hub, spoke hole distance from center, etc. Most of the calculators
have extensive databases that make measurements unnecessary.

Check out http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm
It's an excel spreadsheet so you should be able to inspect the formulas.

--Art


"big Pete" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have some questions about wheel building. I want to build my back
> wheel myself. Cross 3 pattern 14 gauge stainless steal spokes. I
> finally got my hub and caste that is compatible with my suntour
> component set. I have dishing questions. I know the spoke length are
> different on the drive side and non drive side and that dose help with
> the dishing, but without a dish stick how do I know I got the dishing
> correct? Is it possible to build a dish stick? If so how? I use my bike
> as the truing stand this trick has work well for me for many years ...
> but it was only used to true a wheels that have been already built. My
> wheel building experience thus far is that I have swapped hubs out of
> my mtb bike (i.e. replaced my low level hub with a nice higher end hub)
> These hubs had the same dimension so I did not have to get new spokes
> and calculate spoke length. How do I calculate what length spokes I
> need? I saw some calculators on the web but I am interested in
> mathematical formula. I have read Brown's page on wheel building.
>
> Thank you all
>
> Pete
>
>
> --
> big Pete
>

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article >,
says...

>Hi all,
>I have some questions about wheel building. I want to build my back
>wheel myself. Cross 3 pattern 14 gauge stainless steal spokes. I
>finally got my hub and caste that is compatible with my suntour
>component set. I have dishing questions. I know the spoke length are
>different on the drive side and non drive side and that dose help with
>the dishing, but without a dish stick how do I know I got the dishing
>correct?

Very easy. You flip the wheel in the truing stand. When it stays in the
same position when you flip it, it is centered. I would also recommend
using double butted spokes instead of straight gauge.

>Is it possible to build a dish stick? If so how?

Yes it is possible. I'm sure a google search will turn up multiple plans.

>I use my bike
>as the truing stand this trick has work well for me for many years ...
>but it was only used to true a wheels that have been already built. My
>wheel building experience thus far is that I have swapped hubs out of
>my mtb bike (i.e. replaced my low level hub with a nice higher end hub)
>These hubs had the same dimension so I did not have to get new spokes
>and calculate spoke length. How do I calculate what length spokes I
>need? I saw some calculators on the web but I am interested in
>mathematical formula. I have read Brown's page on wheel building.

I would recommnend buying, or borrowing, a copy of 'The Bicycle Wheel' by
Jobst Brandt. It has everything you need to know to build up a good strong
wheel.
-------------
Alex

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article >,
says...

>Hi all,
>I have some questions about wheel building. I want to build my back
>wheel myself. Cross 3 pattern 14 gauge stainless steal spokes. I
>finally got my hub and caste that is compatible with my suntour
>component set. I have dishing questions. I know the spoke length are
>different on the drive side and non drive side and that dose help with
>the dishing, but without a dish stick how do I know I got the dishing
>correct?

Very easy. You flip the wheel in the truing stand. When it stays in the
same position when you flip it, it is centered. I would also recommend
using double butted spokes instead of straight gauge.

>Is it possible to build a dish stick? If so how?

Yes it is possible. I'm sure a google search will turn up multiple plans.

>I use my bike
>as the truing stand this trick has work well for me for many years ...
>but it was only used to true a wheels that have been already built. My
>wheel building experience thus far is that I have swapped hubs out of
>my mtb bike (i.e. replaced my low level hub with a nice higher end hub)
>These hubs had the same dimension so I did not have to get new spokes
>and calculate spoke length. How do I calculate what length spokes I
>need? I saw some calculators on the web but I am interested in
>mathematical formula. I have read Brown's page on wheel building.

I would recommnend buying, or borrowing, a copy of 'The Bicycle Wheel' by
Jobst Brandt. It has everything you need to know to build up a good strong
wheel.
-------------
Alex

[John Everett]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:49:03 +1000, big Pete
> wrote:

>
>Hi all,
>
>I have some questions about wheel building. I want to build my back
>wheel myself. Cross 3 pattern 14 gauge stainless steal spokes. I
>finally got my hub and caste that is compatible with my suntour
>component set. I have dishing questions. I know the spoke length are
>different on the drive side and non drive side and that dose help with
>the dishing, but without a dish stick how do I know I got the dishing
>correct?

From a posting I made to r.b.t on 1997/12/30:

"At risk of drawing flames, let me suggest that a flat surface and a
machinists rule (or probably just a regular ruler) does an adequate
job as a dishing tool. Put the wheel (skewer removed) on the flat
surface with one section of the rim in contact with the surface.
Measure the height of the rim 180° opposite, then flip it over and
remeasure. If the measurements are equal (assuming an equal amount of
axle extends beyond the locknut on each side, and the rim is running
true), the wheel is properly dished.


jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

[John Everett]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:49:03 +1000, big Pete
> wrote:

>
>Hi all,
>
>I have some questions about wheel building. I want to build my back
>wheel myself. Cross 3 pattern 14 gauge stainless steal spokes. I
>finally got my hub and caste that is compatible with my suntour
>component set. I have dishing questions. I know the spoke length are
>different on the drive side and non drive side and that dose help with
>the dishing, but without a dish stick how do I know I got the dishing
>correct?

From a posting I made to r.b.t on 1997/12/30:

"At risk of drawing flames, let me suggest that a flat surface and a
machinists rule (or probably just a regular ruler) does an adequate
job as a dishing tool. Put the wheel (skewer removed) on the flat
surface with one section of the rim in contact with the surface.
Measure the height of the rim 180° opposite, then flip it over and
remeasure. If the measurements are equal (assuming an equal amount of
axle extends beyond the locknut on each side, and the rim is running
true), the wheel is properly dished.


jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:49:03 +1000, big Pete wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> I have some questions about wheel building. I want to build my back wheel
> myself. Cross 3 pattern 14 gauge stainless steal spokes.

You probably have them already, but if not I recommend butted spokes.
They make a more reliable wheel.

> I finally got my
> hub and caste that is compatible with my suntour component set. I have
> dishing questions. I know the spoke length are different on the drive
> side and non drive side and that dose help with the dishing,

Only about 1mm, not significant.

> but without
> a dish stick how do I know I got the dishing correct? Is it possible to
> build a dish stick? If so how?

Easy. Get a piece of metal stock long enough to span the wheel. At each
end, drill a hole and install a 3" bolt, so that the ends touch the
braking flats of the rim on opposite sides. Get one more bolt, and use
wing-nuts to allow you to move it easily, drill a hole in the middle and
attach it.

Here is ascii-art indicating what it should look like:


| |
|___________________________|_____________________ ___________|
|
^

Hope that gives the idea. The point is that the distance from the end of
the axle lock-nut to the rim should be the same on either side. Place
this against one side, adjust the middle bolt to just scrape the axle
lock-nut when the other two are resting on the rim, then flip it around
and see if it fits the same way on the other side. If not, tighten one
side's spokes 1/4 turn and try again. Tighten the side where the axle
sticks out too much. Use the locknuts, not the end of the axle, since
they are not always centered.

Of course, you could just stick the wheel on the bike, check the distance
to the brake blocks, then flip the wheel around and re-check, but a gauge
is more accurate.

> length. How do I calculate what length spokes I need? I saw some
> calculators on the web but I am interested in mathematical formula. I
> have read Brown's page on wheel building.

I'd imagine the formulas are in Jobst's book. But the on-line calculators
are pretty good. You can get one that is a spreadsheet, with dimension
data for various brands and all, and it will have the formulas programmed
into it.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The
_`\(,_ | common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance,
(_)/ (_) | and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my
trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my
business!" --Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"

[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:49:03 +1000, big Pete wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> I have some questions about wheel building. I want to build my back wheel
> myself. Cross 3 pattern 14 gauge stainless steal spokes.

You probably have them already, but if not I recommend butted spokes.
They make a more reliable wheel.

> I finally got my
> hub and caste that is compatible with my suntour component set. I have
> dishing questions. I know the spoke length are different on the drive
> side and non drive side and that dose help with the dishing,

Only about 1mm, not significant.

> but without
> a dish stick how do I know I got the dishing correct? Is it possible to
> build a dish stick? If so how?

Easy. Get a piece of metal stock long enough to span the wheel. At each
end, drill a hole and install a 3" bolt, so that the ends touch the
braking flats of the rim on opposite sides. Get one more bolt, and use
wing-nuts to allow you to move it easily, drill a hole in the middle and
attach it.

Here is ascii-art indicating what it should look like:


| |
|___________________________|_____________________ ___________|
|
^

Hope that gives the idea. The point is that the distance from the end of
the axle lock-nut to the rim should be the same on either side. Place
this against one side, adjust the middle bolt to just scrape the axle
lock-nut when the other two are resting on the rim, then flip it around
and see if it fits the same way on the other side. If not, tighten one
side's spokes 1/4 turn and try again. Tighten the side where the axle
sticks out too much. Use the locknuts, not the end of the axle, since
they are not always centered.

Of course, you could just stick the wheel on the bike, check the distance
to the brake blocks, then flip the wheel around and re-check, but a gauge
is more accurate.

> length. How do I calculate what length spokes I need? I saw some
> calculators on the web but I am interested in mathematical formula. I
> have read Brown's page on wheel building.

I'd imagine the formulas are in Jobst's book. But the on-line calculators
are pretty good. You can get one that is a spreadsheet, with dimension
data for various brands and all, and it will have the formulas programmed
into it.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The
_`\(,_ | common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance,
(_)/ (_) | and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my
trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my
business!" --Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:42:31 -0400, "David L. Johnson"
> wrote:

>On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:49:03 +1000, big Pete wrote:
>

[snip]

>> How do I calculate what length spokes I need? I saw some
>> calculators on the web but I am interested in mathematical formula. I
>> have read Brown's page on wheel building.
>
>I'd imagine the formulas are in Jobst's book. But the on-line calculators
>are pretty good. You can get one that is a spreadsheet, with dimension
>data for various brands and all, and it will have the formulas programmed
>into it.

Dear Pete and Dave,

Yes, Jobst Brandt's "Equations" section at the end of "The
Bicycle Wheel" has a page devoted to an equation for
calculating spoke length.

Carl Fogel

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:42:31 -0400, "David L. Johnson"
> wrote:

>On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:49:03 +1000, big Pete wrote:
>

[snip]

>> How do I calculate what length spokes I need? I saw some
>> calculators on the web but I am interested in mathematical formula. I
>> have read Brown's page on wheel building.
>
>I'd imagine the formulas are in Jobst's book. But the on-line calculators
>are pretty good. You can get one that is a spreadsheet, with dimension
>data for various brands and all, and it will have the formulas programmed
>into it.

Dear Pete and Dave,

Yes, Jobst Brandt's "Equations" section at the end of "The
Bicycle Wheel" has a page devoted to an equation for
calculating spoke length.

Carl Fogel

[John Everett]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:55:27 -0600, wrote:

>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:42:31 -0400, "David L. Johnson"
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:49:03 +1000, big Pete wrote:
>>
>
>[snip]
>
>>> How do I calculate what length spokes I need? I saw some
>>> calculators on the web but I am interested in mathematical formula. I
>>> have read Brown's page on wheel building.
>>
>>I'd imagine the formulas are in Jobst's book. But the on-line calculators
>>are pretty good. You can get one that is a spreadsheet, with dimension
>>data for various brands and all, and it will have the formulas programmed
>>into it.
>
>Dear Pete and Dave,
>
>Yes, Jobst Brandt's "Equations" section at the end of "The
>Bicycle Wheel" has a page devoted to an equation for
>calculating spoke length.

If you're interested in the actual formula, I have a small Excel .xls
file that calculates spoke length. It's already filled in with
dimensions for a couple of wheels I built some time ago, but if you
plug in your dimensions in the appropriate cells you'll get results in
the obvious cells. Open those cells to see the formula used.

Email if you want the .xls file and I'll send it along as an
attachment to a return email.


jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

[John Everett]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:55:27 -0600, wrote:

>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:42:31 -0400, "David L. Johnson"
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:49:03 +1000, big Pete wrote:
>>
>
>[snip]
>
>>> How do I calculate what length spokes I need? I saw some
>>> calculators on the web but I am interested in mathematical formula. I
>>> have read Brown's page on wheel building.
>>
>>I'd imagine the formulas are in Jobst's book. But the on-line calculators
>>are pretty good. You can get one that is a spreadsheet, with dimension
>>data for various brands and all, and it will have the formulas programmed
>>into it.
>
>Dear Pete and Dave,
>
>Yes, Jobst Brandt's "Equations" section at the end of "The
>Bicycle Wheel" has a page devoted to an equation for
>calculating spoke length.

If you're interested in the actual formula, I have a small Excel .xls
file that calculates spoke length. It's already filled in with
dimensions for a couple of wheels I built some time ago, but if you
plug in your dimensions in the appropriate cells you'll get results in
the obvious cells. Open those cells to see the formula used.

Email if you want the .xls file and I'll send it along as an
attachment to a return email.


jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3