Shimano 7700 vs. HG-92 chain questions

[Larry Coon]

My Trek 5200 came with an Ultegra 9-speed group. I wanted
different gearing (11-21 instead of the 12-25 that came
stock) so I also took the opportunity to upgrade the cassette
to Dura-Ace 7700.

Looking at Shimano's service docs, the Ultegra cassette is
compatible with either the HG-92 or CN-7700 chain:

<http://bike.shimano.com/product_images/CS/si_images/CS_6500_SI.pdf>

But the Dura-Ace cassette is compatible with the CN-7700 only:

<http://bike.shimano.com/product_images/CS/si_images/CS_7700_SI.pdf>

Trek, thoughtfully, declines to indicate which chain they are using
on the 5200:

<http://www.trekbikes.com/bikes/2004/road/5200.jsp>

although I'm guessing it's the HG-92 since the 7700 appears to
be part of the Dura-Ace line.

So I have the following questions:

1. Can someone verify which chain comes stock on the 5200,
or let me know how to tell them apart by sight?

2. What's the difference between the two, and are they
really incompatible, as the service docs indicate?

3. It looks like the current models are HG-93 and 7701.
Are HG-92 & HG-93 the same, and 7700 & 7701 the same
(i.e., just different years)?

4. What IS the best chain for this setup? Is there a
non-Shimano chain (e.g., SRAM or Wippermann) that
works a lot better?

5. My chain breaker is pretty old -- I used it on my old
bike, which was 7-speed. Do these chains require a
more current tool, or will my old one work fine?

Thanks.


Larry Coon
University of California

[jim beam]

Larry Coon wrote:
> My Trek 5200 came with an Ultegra 9-speed group. I wanted
> different gearing (11-21 instead of the 12-25 that came
> stock) so I also took the opportunity to upgrade the cassette
> to Dura-Ace 7700.
>
> Looking at Shimano's service docs, the Ultegra cassette is
> compatible with either the HG-92 or CN-7700 chain:
>
> <http://bike.shimano.com/product_images/CS/si_images/CS_6500_SI.pdf>
>
> But the Dura-Ace cassette is compatible with the CN-7700 only:
>
> <http://bike.shimano.com/product_images/CS/si_images/CS_7700_SI.pdf>
>
> Trek, thoughtfully, declines to indicate which chain they are using
> on the 5200:
>
> <http://www.trekbikes.com/bikes/2004/road/5200.jsp>
>
> although I'm guessing it's the HG-92 since the 7700 appears to
> be part of the Dura-Ace line.
>
> So I have the following questions:
>
> 1. Can someone verify which chain comes stock on the 5200,
> or let me know how to tell them apart by sight?
>
> 2. What's the difference between the two, and are they
> really incompatible, as the service docs indicate?
>
> 3. It looks like the current models are HG-93 and 7701.
> Are HG-92 & HG-93 the same, and 7700 & 7701 the same
> (i.e., just different years)?
>
> 4. What IS the best chain for this setup? Is there a
> non-Shimano chain (e.g., SRAM or Wippermann) that
> works a lot better?
>
> 5. My chain breaker is pretty old -- I used it on my old
> bike, which was 7-speed. Do these chains require a
> more current tool, or will my old one work fine?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Larry Coon
> University of California

larry, the dimensional specs for the hg series shimano chains are all
the same as far as i've been able to determine, so in that respect
there's no useful difference between the hg93 & the 7701 if the color
difference of the nickel plating is not important to you. personally i
use hg53 most of the time. the only difference between the 7700 & 7701
is the way the rivets are peened at the ends. again, has no functional
effect on the user.

there /is/ however a difference between shift quality between shimano
["bulge" sided links] & sram [flat sided links] chains. the shimano
cogs are ramped to pick up on the plate bulges, so shimano cogs shift
smoother with shimano chain. that's not to say they won't work with
other chain too, but the genuine article is the way to go, especially on
the crank end of things.

you /can/ use a 7s chain tool, if you know what you're doing, but life's
a lot easier with the 9s tool.

[jim beam]

Larry Coon wrote:
> My Trek 5200 came with an Ultegra 9-speed group. I wanted
> different gearing (11-21 instead of the 12-25 that came
> stock) so I also took the opportunity to upgrade the cassette
> to Dura-Ace 7700.
>
> Looking at Shimano's service docs, the Ultegra cassette is
> compatible with either the HG-92 or CN-7700 chain:
>
> <http://bike.shimano.com/product_images/CS/si_images/CS_6500_SI.pdf>
>
> But the Dura-Ace cassette is compatible with the CN-7700 only:
>
> <http://bike.shimano.com/product_images/CS/si_images/CS_7700_SI.pdf>
>
> Trek, thoughtfully, declines to indicate which chain they are using
> on the 5200:
>
> <http://www.trekbikes.com/bikes/2004/road/5200.jsp>
>
> although I'm guessing it's the HG-92 since the 7700 appears to
> be part of the Dura-Ace line.
>
> So I have the following questions:
>
> 1. Can someone verify which chain comes stock on the 5200,
> or let me know how to tell them apart by sight?
>
> 2. What's the difference between the two, and are they
> really incompatible, as the service docs indicate?
>
> 3. It looks like the current models are HG-93 and 7701.
> Are HG-92 & HG-93 the same, and 7700 & 7701 the same
> (i.e., just different years)?
>
> 4. What IS the best chain for this setup? Is there a
> non-Shimano chain (e.g., SRAM or Wippermann) that
> works a lot better?
>
> 5. My chain breaker is pretty old -- I used it on my old
> bike, which was 7-speed. Do these chains require a
> more current tool, or will my old one work fine?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Larry Coon
> University of California

larry, the dimensional specs for the hg series shimano chains are all
the same as far as i've been able to determine, so in that respect
there's no useful difference between the hg93 & the 7701 if the color
difference of the nickel plating is not important to you. personally i
use hg53 most of the time. the only difference between the 7700 & 7701
is the way the rivets are peened at the ends. again, has no functional
effect on the user.

there /is/ however a difference between shift quality between shimano
["bulge" sided links] & sram [flat sided links] chains. the shimano
cogs are ramped to pick up on the plate bulges, so shimano cogs shift
smoother with shimano chain. that's not to say they won't work with
other chain too, but the genuine article is the way to go, especially on
the crank end of things.

you /can/ use a 7s chain tool, if you know what you're doing, but life's
a lot easier with the 9s tool.

[Larry Coon]

jim beam wrote:

> larry, the dimensional specs for the hg series shimano chains are all
> the same as far as i've been able to determine, so in that respect
> there's no useful difference between the hg93 & the 7701 if the color
> difference of the nickel plating is not important to you. personally i
> use hg53 most of the time.

Ah, so it was just a policy thing with Shimano, not to
list a sub-Dura Ace chain as compatible with the Dura
Ace cassette? Understandable, if that's the case.

However, I have the Dura Ace casette on the bike now
with the (I think) HG-93, and it doesn't shift as well.
Oddly, it hesitates to shift in the middle cogs, more
so up than down. The middle cogs are the same size as
on the Uniglide cassette, so it's the same amount of
chain wrap, and everything else (spacing, etc.) should
be the same, right? If so, shouldn't it shift AT
LEAST as well with the DA cassette, without further
adjustment? That's what got me wondering about the
chain compatibility.

> the only difference between the 7700 & 7701
> is the way the rivets are peened at the ends. again, has no functional
> effect on the user.
>
> there /is/ however a difference between shift quality between shimano
> ["bulge" sided links] & sram [flat sided links] chains. the shimano
> cogs are ramped to pick up on the plate bulges, so shimano cogs shift
> smoother with shimano chain. that's not to say they won't work with
> other chain too, but the genuine article is the way to go, especially on
> the crank end of things.

Thanks. How about the Wippermann -- does it have
plate bulges, and if so, is it worth the extra
money?

> you /can/ use a 7s chain tool, if you know what you're doing, but life's
> a lot easier with the 9s tool.

It's been about 15 years since I knew what I was
doing....I'm about two generations behind right now.

Thanks for the advice.


Larry Coon
University of California

[Larry Coon]

jim beam wrote:

> larry, the dimensional specs for the hg series shimano chains are all
> the same as far as i've been able to determine, so in that respect
> there's no useful difference between the hg93 & the 7701 if the color
> difference of the nickel plating is not important to you. personally i
> use hg53 most of the time.

Ah, so it was just a policy thing with Shimano, not to
list a sub-Dura Ace chain as compatible with the Dura
Ace cassette? Understandable, if that's the case.

However, I have the Dura Ace casette on the bike now
with the (I think) HG-93, and it doesn't shift as well.
Oddly, it hesitates to shift in the middle cogs, more
so up than down. The middle cogs are the same size as
on the Uniglide cassette, so it's the same amount of
chain wrap, and everything else (spacing, etc.) should
be the same, right? If so, shouldn't it shift AT
LEAST as well with the DA cassette, without further
adjustment? That's what got me wondering about the
chain compatibility.

> the only difference between the 7700 & 7701
> is the way the rivets are peened at the ends. again, has no functional
> effect on the user.
>
> there /is/ however a difference between shift quality between shimano
> ["bulge" sided links] & sram [flat sided links] chains. the shimano
> cogs are ramped to pick up on the plate bulges, so shimano cogs shift
> smoother with shimano chain. that's not to say they won't work with
> other chain too, but the genuine article is the way to go, especially on
> the crank end of things.

Thanks. How about the Wippermann -- does it have
plate bulges, and if so, is it worth the extra
money?

> you /can/ use a 7s chain tool, if you know what you're doing, but life's
> a lot easier with the 9s tool.

It's been about 15 years since I knew what I was
doing....I'm about two generations behind right now.

Thanks for the advice.


Larry Coon
University of California

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

icnospam-<< Looking at Shimano's service docs, the Ultegra cassette is
compatible with either the HG-92 or CN-7700 chain:
>><BR><BR>
<< But the Dura-Ace cassette is compatible with the CN-7700 only:

<http://bike.shimano.com/product_images/CS/si_images/CS_7700_SI.pdf>
>><BR><BR>

Balderdash..use any 9s chain in existence with the 9s cassette..Surprised
shimano will say th....no I'm not.

Use a Sram PC-59...cheaper, snaplink, more durable.


Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

icnospam-<< Looking at Shimano's service docs, the Ultegra cassette is
compatible with either the HG-92 or CN-7700 chain:
>><BR><BR>
<< But the Dura-Ace cassette is compatible with the CN-7700 only:

<http://bike.shimano.com/product_images/CS/si_images/CS_7700_SI.pdf>
>><BR><BR>

Balderdash..use any 9s chain in existence with the 9s cassette..Surprised
shimano will say th....no I'm not.

Use a Sram PC-59...cheaper, snaplink, more durable.


Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[jim beam]

Larry Coon wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>
>>larry, the dimensional specs for the hg series shimano chains are all
>>the same as far as i've been able to determine, so in that respect
>>there's no useful difference between the hg93 & the 7701 if the color
>>difference of the nickel plating is not important to you. personally i
>>use hg53 most of the time.
>
>
> Ah, so it was just a policy thing with Shimano, not to
> list a sub-Dura Ace chain as compatible with the Dura
> Ace cassette? Understandable, if that's the case.
>
> However, I have the Dura Ace casette on the bike now
> with the (I think) HG-93, and it doesn't shift as well.
> Oddly, it hesitates to shift in the middle cogs, more
> so up than down.

that sounds like an adjustment or perhaps cassette wear issue.

> The middle cogs are the same size as
> on the Uniglide cassette, so it's the same amount of
> chain wrap, and everything else (spacing, etc.) should
> be the same, right? If so, shouldn't it shift AT
> LEAST as well with the DA cassette, without further
> adjustment? That's what got me wondering about the
> chain compatibility.

all things being equal, there's no difference between chains. get a
micrometer & check for yourself! if the cassette is worn however, you
will notice a difference between one chain & another. if you had a new
d/a cassette & a new hg93, plus a well adjusted derailleur, everything
would be peachy.

>
>
>>the only difference between the 7700 & 7701
>>is the way the rivets are peened at the ends. again, has no functional
>>effect on the user.
>>
>>there /is/ however a difference between shift quality between shimano
>>["bulge" sided links] & sram [flat sided links] chains. the shimano
>>cogs are ramped to pick up on the plate bulges, so shimano cogs shift
>>smoother with shimano chain. that's not to say they won't work with
>>other chain too, but the genuine article is the way to go, especially on
>>the crank end of things.
>
>
> Thanks. How about the Wippermann -- does it have
> plate bulges, and if so, is it worth the extra
> money?

no, no bulges. i wouldn't buy a wippermann. if it doesn't have the
appropriate design & costs twice as much, i'd say any sales at all are
the triumph of marketing over engineering, but hey, people buy microsoft
all the time so who am i to have an opinion?

>
>
>>you /can/ use a 7s chain tool, if you know what you're doing, but life's
>>a lot easier with the 9s tool.
>
>
> It's been about 15 years since I knew what I was
> doing....I'm about two generations behind right now.
>
> Thanks for the advice.
>
>
> Larry Coon
> University of California

[jim beam]

Larry Coon wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>
>>larry, the dimensional specs for the hg series shimano chains are all
>>the same as far as i've been able to determine, so in that respect
>>there's no useful difference between the hg93 & the 7701 if the color
>>difference of the nickel plating is not important to you. personally i
>>use hg53 most of the time.
>
>
> Ah, so it was just a policy thing with Shimano, not to
> list a sub-Dura Ace chain as compatible with the Dura
> Ace cassette? Understandable, if that's the case.
>
> However, I have the Dura Ace casette on the bike now
> with the (I think) HG-93, and it doesn't shift as well.
> Oddly, it hesitates to shift in the middle cogs, more
> so up than down.

that sounds like an adjustment or perhaps cassette wear issue.

> The middle cogs are the same size as
> on the Uniglide cassette, so it's the same amount of
> chain wrap, and everything else (spacing, etc.) should
> be the same, right? If so, shouldn't it shift AT
> LEAST as well with the DA cassette, without further
> adjustment? That's what got me wondering about the
> chain compatibility.

all things being equal, there's no difference between chains. get a
micrometer & check for yourself! if the cassette is worn however, you
will notice a difference between one chain & another. if you had a new
d/a cassette & a new hg93, plus a well adjusted derailleur, everything
would be peachy.

>
>
>>the only difference between the 7700 & 7701
>>is the way the rivets are peened at the ends. again, has no functional
>>effect on the user.
>>
>>there /is/ however a difference between shift quality between shimano
>>["bulge" sided links] & sram [flat sided links] chains. the shimano
>>cogs are ramped to pick up on the plate bulges, so shimano cogs shift
>>smoother with shimano chain. that's not to say they won't work with
>>other chain too, but the genuine article is the way to go, especially on
>>the crank end of things.
>
>
> Thanks. How about the Wippermann -- does it have
> plate bulges, and if so, is it worth the extra
> money?

no, no bulges. i wouldn't buy a wippermann. if it doesn't have the
appropriate design & costs twice as much, i'd say any sales at all are
the triumph of marketing over engineering, but hey, people buy microsoft
all the time so who am i to have an opinion?

>
>
>>you /can/ use a 7s chain tool, if you know what you're doing, but life's
>>a lot easier with the 9s tool.
>
>
> It's been about 15 years since I knew what I was
> doing....I'm about two generations behind right now.
>
> Thanks for the advice.
>
>
> Larry Coon
> University of California

[Larry Coon]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> Balderdash..use any 9s chain in existence with the 9s cassette..Surprised
> shimano will say th....no I'm not.

Thanks Peter. As I said in another post, I suspect Shimano
just won't endorse a "lesser" chain (the HG) on Dura-Ace
equipment.

> Use a Sram PC-59...cheaper, snaplink, more durable.


Larry Coon
University of California

[Larry Coon]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> Balderdash..use any 9s chain in existence with the 9s cassette..Surprised
> shimano will say th....no I'm not.

Thanks Peter. As I said in another post, I suspect Shimano
just won't endorse a "lesser" chain (the HG) on Dura-Ace
equipment.

> Use a Sram PC-59...cheaper, snaplink, more durable.


Larry Coon
University of California

[Larry Coon]

jim beam wrote:

> that sounds like an adjustment or perhaps cassette wear issue.

[. . .]

> all things being equal, there's no difference between chains. get a
> micrometer & check for yourself! if the cassette is worn however, you
> will notice a difference between one chain & another.

The bike is brand new -- just 500 miles on it. I had
everything dialed in perfectly with the HG chain and
the Ultegra cassette, then switched to a brand new,
out of the box DA cassette and it didn't shift as well.
So cassette wear isn't an issue, nor is chain wear,
unless you consider a chain with 500 miles to be worn.

> if you had a new
> d/a cassette & a new hg93, plus a well adjusted derailleur, everything
> would be peachy.

That's why I'm asking -- I was surprised everything
wasn't peachy. However, I was thinking there were no
other differences, but really there were -- it's
sluggish on the middle three cogs, which on the Ultegra
were 15-17-19 and on the DA are 14-15-16. So a
different amount of chain wrap, which means I was wrong
to be surprised that it didn't work exactly the same
on those gears.

> no, no bulges. i wouldn't buy a wippermann. if it doesn't have the
> appropriate design & costs twice as much, i'd say any sales at all are
> the triumph of marketing over engineering, but hey, people buy microsoft
> all the time so who am i to have an opinion?

Thanks.


Larry Coon
University of California

[Larry Coon]

jim beam wrote:

> that sounds like an adjustment or perhaps cassette wear issue.

[. . .]

> all things being equal, there's no difference between chains. get a
> micrometer & check for yourself! if the cassette is worn however, you
> will notice a difference between one chain & another.

The bike is brand new -- just 500 miles on it. I had
everything dialed in perfectly with the HG chain and
the Ultegra cassette, then switched to a brand new,
out of the box DA cassette and it didn't shift as well.
So cassette wear isn't an issue, nor is chain wear,
unless you consider a chain with 500 miles to be worn.

> if you had a new
> d/a cassette & a new hg93, plus a well adjusted derailleur, everything
> would be peachy.

That's why I'm asking -- I was surprised everything
wasn't peachy. However, I was thinking there were no
other differences, but really there were -- it's
sluggish on the middle three cogs, which on the Ultegra
were 15-17-19 and on the DA are 14-15-16. So a
different amount of chain wrap, which means I was wrong
to be surprised that it didn't work exactly the same
on those gears.

> no, no bulges. i wouldn't buy a wippermann. if it doesn't have the
> appropriate design & costs twice as much, i'd say any sales at all are
> the triumph of marketing over engineering, but hey, people buy microsoft
> all the time so who am i to have an opinion?

Thanks.


Larry Coon
University of California

[jim beam]

Larry Coon wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>
>>that sounds like an adjustment or perhaps cassette wear issue.
>
>
> [. . .]
>
>
>>all things being equal, there's no difference between chains. get a
>>micrometer & check for yourself! if the cassette is worn however, you
>>will notice a difference between one chain & another.
>
>
> The bike is brand new -- just 500 miles on it. I had
> everything dialed in perfectly with the HG chain and
> the Ultegra cassette, then switched to a brand new,
> out of the box DA cassette and it didn't shift as well.
> So cassette wear isn't an issue, nor is chain wear,
> unless you consider a chain with 500 miles to be worn.

sorry you're not having luck. i've tried the combinations you describe,
both chain & cassette and have had no noticable difference in shift quality.

it's unlikely, but i guess it is possible for a chain to be worn at 500.
what lube do you use and what kind of cleaning regimen?

>
>
>>if you had a new
>>d/a cassette & a new hg93, plus a well adjusted derailleur, everything
>>would be peachy.
>
>
> That's why I'm asking -- I was surprised everything
> wasn't peachy. However, I was thinking there were no
> other differences, but really there were -- it's
> sluggish on the middle three cogs, which on the Ultegra
> were 15-17-19 and on the DA are 14-15-16. So a
> different amount of chain wrap, which means I was wrong
> to be surprised that it didn't work exactly the same
> on those gears.
>
>
>>no, no bulges. i wouldn't buy a wippermann. if it doesn't have the
>>appropriate design & costs twice as much, i'd say any sales at all are
>>the triumph of marketing over engineering, but hey, people buy microsoft
>>all the time so who am i to have an opinion?
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Larry Coon
> University of California

[jim beam]

Larry Coon wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>
>>that sounds like an adjustment or perhaps cassette wear issue.
>
>
> [. . .]
>
>
>>all things being equal, there's no difference between chains. get a
>>micrometer & check for yourself! if the cassette is worn however, you
>>will notice a difference between one chain & another.
>
>
> The bike is brand new -- just 500 miles on it. I had
> everything dialed in perfectly with the HG chain and
> the Ultegra cassette, then switched to a brand new,
> out of the box DA cassette and it didn't shift as well.
> So cassette wear isn't an issue, nor is chain wear,
> unless you consider a chain with 500 miles to be worn.

sorry you're not having luck. i've tried the combinations you describe,
both chain & cassette and have had no noticable difference in shift quality.

it's unlikely, but i guess it is possible for a chain to be worn at 500.
what lube do you use and what kind of cleaning regimen?

>
>
>>if you had a new
>>d/a cassette & a new hg93, plus a well adjusted derailleur, everything
>>would be peachy.
>
>
> That's why I'm asking -- I was surprised everything
> wasn't peachy. However, I was thinking there were no
> other differences, but really there were -- it's
> sluggish on the middle three cogs, which on the Ultegra
> were 15-17-19 and on the DA are 14-15-16. So a
> different amount of chain wrap, which means I was wrong
> to be surprised that it didn't work exactly the same
> on those gears.
>
>
>>no, no bulges. i wouldn't buy a wippermann. if it doesn't have the
>>appropriate design & costs twice as much, i'd say any sales at all are
>>the triumph of marketing over engineering, but hey, people buy microsoft
>>all the time so who am i to have an opinion?
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Larry Coon
> University of California