Re: Promoter's Lament -- from Hamilton world's site

[Rik Van Diesel]

"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in message >...
> "Rik Van Diesel" > wrote in message
> m...
> > (John Forrest Tomlinson) wrote in message
> >...
> > > http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/4416.0.html

>
> I concur, that is good stuff.
>
>
> Look on the bright side - the Self-Absorbed Masters Fattie is at least one
> step above the Living-vicariously-through-their-kid Little League Parent.

I am not positive on that. Something odd about a parent who doesn't
take their kid to little league because they have to get up and train
or race for or in the big cat 123 master championship.

RVD

[Eric Hollenbeck]

"Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to
comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up
with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them."

I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is
when riders don't register in advance. I still have a start list,
PRINTED and SOLD to spectators after all riders had registered
"on-site", for the 1992 East Flanders Provincial Amateur Road
Championships. From rider number 1 (Danny Annaert) to number 461
(Patrick Verhertstraten), each riders name and hometown are listed
along with sponsors from around the Province. I bought this start list
for about a buck after the race had been on for about 20 minutes. Did
I, or any of the serious spectators, care that it was one color?

Although I agree almost entirely with the complaints and analysis
about masters currently adversely affecting the sport, promoters
should challenge themselves to search for reasonable sponsorship,
charge low, affordable entry fees (if any at all) and register
exclusively "on-site". That is before they write about riders not
being "professional".

Eric Hollenbeck
(No I'm not Belgian, thats why I was a spectator :-)

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Rik Van Diesel" > wrote in message
om...
> "Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message >...
> > "Rik Van Diesel" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > > (John Forrest Tomlinson) wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/4416.0.html
>
> >
> > I concur, that is good stuff.
> >
> >
> > Look on the bright side - the Self-Absorbed Masters Fattie is at least
one
> > step above the Living-vicariously-through-their-kid Little League
Parent.
>
> I am not positive on that. Something odd about a parent who doesn't
> take their kid to little league because they have to get up and train
> or race for or in the big cat 123 master championship.



Damn, I can't argue with that.

[Bob Schwartz]

Eric Hollenbeck wrote:
> "Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to
> comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up
> with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them."

> I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is
> when riders don't register in advance. I still have a start list,
> PRINTED and SOLD to spectators after all riders had registered
> "on-site", for the 1992 East Flanders Provincial Amateur Road
> Championships. From rider number 1 (Danny Annaert) to number 461
> (Patrick Verhertstraten), each riders name and hometown are listed
> along with sponsors from around the Province. I bought this start list
> for about a buck after the race had been on for about 20 minutes. Did
> I, or any of the serious spectators, care that it was one color?

> Although I agree almost entirely with the complaints and analysis
> about masters currently adversely affecting the sport, promoters
> should challenge themselves to search for reasonable sponsorship,
> charge low, affordable entry fees (if any at all) and register
> exclusively "on-site". That is before they write about riders not
> being "professional".

Never organized a race, have you?

Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you?

Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting,
have you?

Never compiled a race budget, have you?

Never worked at a registration table, have you?

I will bet that the Belgians were working from a license database
with all the information you had on that race program and only had
to record who had actually shown up in order to generate the start
list. Which is a good idea, that is for sure. And an illustration
of one of the many ways in which Belgian race organization is so
much better than what we get here in North America.

But until YOU have figured out how to get enough sponsorship
money to get away with charging low (if at all) entry fees, and
YOU have tried to round up enough volunteer labor to do that amount
of race day entry, and YOU have secured finances such that you
can tell the 50 guys that showed up with illegible entry forms
5 minutes before the scheduled start time to buzz off...

then YOU don't know what you are talking about.

Bob Schwartz

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Bob Schwartz" > wrote in message
...
> Eric Hollenbeck wrote:
> > "Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to
> > comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up
> > with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them."
>
> > I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is
> > when riders don't register in advance. I still have a start list,
> > PRINTED and SOLD to spectators after all riders had registered
> > "on-site", for the 1992 East Flanders Provincial Amateur Road
> > Championships. From rider number 1 (Danny Annaert) to number 461
> > (Patrick Verhertstraten), each riders name and hometown are listed
> > along with sponsors from around the Province. I bought this start list
> > for about a buck after the race had been on for about 20 minutes. Did
> > I, or any of the serious spectators, care that it was one color?
>
> > Although I agree almost entirely with the complaints and analysis
> > about masters currently adversely affecting the sport, promoters
> > should challenge themselves to search for reasonable sponsorship,
> > charge low, affordable entry fees (if any at all) and register
> > exclusively "on-site". That is before they write about riders not
> > being "professional".
>
> Never organized a race, have you?
>
> Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you?
>
> Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting,
> have you?
>
> Never compiled a race budget, have you?
>
> Never worked at a registration table, have you?


<snip>


I wouldn't bet on any of that - Hollenbeck's been around for awhile.

[Amit]

(John Forrest Tomlinson) wrote in message news:<84314734.0307080557.7
>...
> http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/4416.0.html
>
> "I was appalled by the lack of organization, planning and
> professionalism by many of the teams attending our national
> championship. Some riders and team managers apparently have no respect
> for the sport."

There were a hanful of pro/top-regional teams that registered, most of
the
riders were local riders who formed composite teams. They aren't used
to racing UCI events which require pre-reg. and proper outfits, allow
team cars etc. etc., though anyone who's raced a few years should
realize that the procedures are more strict for nationals. Some riders
were complaining about issues which are UCI/CCA rules, riders should
know better. You can't drop all the UCI hoohah on riders who are used
to doing podunk crits and road races in the sticks to not be confused.

He laments that he didn't get 200 riders in a province of 12 million
people. Well the best riders from Canada were there apart from some
mtn. bikers. There just aren't that many top riders in Canada and
Ontario. Only seventeen riders finished on the same lap as the
leaders. Every Navigator except Walters dropped out, so did a lot of
other good riders. Though some Cat 3 riders raced, most don't see the
point of entering a race like that where they are in way over their
head. I was surprised not to see more American riders (it did conflict
w/ Fitchburg though), being a 1.5 race, UCI points and cash were up
for grabs. Saturn put their four guys in the top 6, basically
unchallenged.

>
> "I place some of the blame on mountain biking and its individualistic
> approach."
>
> "Masters A used to start at age 40; now it's 30. About half the pro
> peloton is over 30 years old - are those guys masters?"
>
> I actually agree with the latter, though I do 30+ and 35+ races all
> the time. But I'm one of the guys responsible for less "young"
> masters races promoted by my own club. Guess I'm sort of a
> hypocrite...
>

The issue isn't the age of the riders, or whether 30+ should be a
category, it's the behaviour of *some* of them, though the Master A
race was a bit of a debacle. (the Masters races were held in Niagara
and weren't as well organized as the elite races). If you're going to
put on a race and charge people money to race it, people are going to
expect a certain level of service.

The author is flipping out over a few conflicts, overlooking the fact
several hundred people that raced that weekend. I don't understand the
point of this article. Why alienate the 90% of riders who are good
"customers" just to vent about the 10% (or whatever) that upset you ?

If I was a Master rider "who didn't race in my prime" I would be
offended by this guy's generalization about my character. What kind of
busnessman would publically slam his customers in this manner ?

-Amit

[inconnu]

>> "I was appalled by the lack of organization, planning and
>> professionalism by many of the teams attending our national
>> championship. Some riders and team managers apparently have no respect
>> for the sport."
>

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Well if the Organizers had some choice comments about the squads at the
Canadian Nationals, I'm waiting for the choice comments the squads
have about the organizers when they see the course.

http://www.hamilton2003.com/Hamilton2003Maps/home.html

[Eric Hollenbeck]

Bob Schwartz > wrote in message >...
> Eric Hollenbeck wrote:
> > "Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to
> > comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up
> > with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them."
>
> > I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is
> > when riders don't register in advance. >
> Never organized a race, have you?

> Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you?

> Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting,
> have you?

> Never compiled a race budget, have you?
>
> Never worked at a registration table, have you?

I have done all these things... More than once.

Now that we have gotten the pleasantries out of the way, what is soooo
impossible about what I suggest? I'll be the first to admit it sounds
utopian but I've seen it work and the main reason it hasn't here is
that most grass roots race promoters (and local racing associations)
who make an effort to streamline and optimize race organization
eventually want a piece of the pie. That works fine for "pro" racing
where the athletes are compensated but for grass roots racing

I can't help but wonder what happened to the $5-$7 entry fees of old.
Bob, you have been around longer than me, tell us how much you paid
for race entry back in "the day".... OK..now, HOW did THEY possibly do
it?

> I will bet that the Belgians were working from a license database
> with all the information you had on that race program and only had
> to record who had actually shown up in order to generate the start
> list. Which is a good idea, that is for sure.

I never saw a single computer when I signed in at more than 200 races
there. They had someone typing and someone (No ****) using one of
those old hand crank presses..

> But until YOU have figured out how to get enough sponsorship
> money to get away with charging low (if at all) entry fees, and
> YOU have tried to round up enough volunteer labor to do that amount
> of race day entry, and YOU have secured finances such that you
> can tell the 50 guys that showed up with illegible entry forms
> 5 minutes before the scheduled start time to buzz off...

1. Find a place that serves affordable food and (alcohol) drinks
outdoors and is open in the afternoon
2. Tell them you want to have A (Yep just one , not 15 in a day) bike
race which starts and finishes in front of their establishment which
only will last 2-3 hours on a afternoon.
3. Tell them if they give you $1000 you will guarantee a return (not
to mention exposure and a chance to enhance the community)
4. Have the race pass the restaurant a minimum 10 times.
5. Have the sign-in and awards at the restaurant.
6. Find another restaurant in another community and start at step 2.

Sure you might not score with the first café… whoops, I mean
restaurant, you approach but eventually you will. Oh no, I've let the
long lost secret out of the bag.

Eric

[Amit]

"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in message >...
> "Bob Schwartz" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Eric Hollenbeck wrote:
> > > "Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to
> > > comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up
> > > with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them."
>
> > > I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is
> > > when riders don't register in advance. I still have a start list,
> > > PRINTED and SOLD to spectators after all riders had registered
> > > "on-site", for the 1992 East Flanders Provincial Amateur Road
> > > Championships. From rider number 1 (Danny Annaert) to number 461
> > > (Patrick Verhertstraten), each riders name and hometown are listed
> > > along with sponsors from around the Province. I bought this start list
> > > for about a buck after the race had been on for about 20 minutes. Did
> > > I, or any of the serious spectators, care that it was one color?
>
> > > Although I agree almost entirely with the complaints and analysis
> > > about masters currently adversely affecting the sport, promoters
> > > should challenge themselves to search for reasonable sponsorship,
> > > charge low, affordable entry fees (if any at all) and register
> > > exclusively "on-site". That is before they write about riders not
> > > being "professional".
> >
> > Never organized a race, have you?
> >
> > Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you?
> >
> > Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting,
> > have you?
> >
> > Never compiled a race budget, have you?
> >
> > Never worked at a registration table, have you?
> >
> I wouldn't bet on any of that - Hollenbeck's been around for awhile.

The race in question is a national championship run under UCI rules,
the race requires a startlist the day before and riders are required
to register as a team for the elite race. Plus pre-registration gives
an organizer some security and an idea of numbers to handle logistics
(like parking, officials, neutral support - did you even think of
these things ?).

If 461 riders did ride the East Flanders champs, if it took a minute
to register each one, it would take over 7 man hours. Did someone type
in 461 names and hometowns ? Obviously they have the money or
personnel or system to pull it off, none of that exists here. Plus,
I'm guessing they didn't have to process fees in Flanders, but this
isn't Belgium.

-Amit

[Amit]

(Eric Hollenbeck) wrote in message

> I can't help but wonder what happened to the $5-$7 entry fees of old.
> Bob, you have been around longer than me, tell us how much you paid
> for race entry back in "the day".... OK..now, HOW did THEY possibly do
> it?
>

It can be done for a weekly "industrial park" training race where the
cost of insurance is amortized over the season and you don't have to
worry about road closures, categories, officials, reliable results
systems.

>
> I never saw a single computer when I signed in at more than 200 races
> there. They had someone typing and someone (No ****) using one of
> those old hand crank presses..
>

this isn't Belgium, where can you find that much competent, reliable
and free labour ?

>
> 1. Find a place that serves affordable food and (alcohol) drinks
> outdoors and is open in the afternoon
> 2. Tell them you want to have A (Yep just one , not 15 in a day) bike
> race which starts and finishes in front of their establishment which
> only will last 2-3 hours on a afternoon.
> 3. Tell them if they give you $1000 you will guarantee a return (not
> to mention exposure and a chance to enhance the community)
> 4. Have the race pass the restaurant a minimum 10 times.
> 5. Have the sign-in and awards at the restaurant.
> 6. Find another restaurant in another community and start at step 2.
>
> Sure you might not score with the first café? whoops, I mean
> restaurant, you approach but eventually you will. Oh no, I've let the
> long lost secret out of the bag.

Have you actually done this ? Or is this a wild dream ?

Sorry, I have no idea what your experience is with regard to
organizing races (you might be the best in the business for all I
know), but you sound awfully naive.

These things cost money:
-sanctions (incl. insurance)
-officials
-results
-permits
-road closures/police
-portable toilets
-cash prizes

some of these things you can't even buy (road closures) or ever hope
to afford
(cops).

plus you might need: drivers, marshals, registration people, manual
labour.

You can run an illegal, unsanctioned race on open roads, and do it
cheap, except you take on a huge risk, it might not be safe, and the
gov. body will shut you down (by suspending lic'd riders, ie. taking
away your customers) if they know about it.

PS. Can you get a sanction to run only one field ? Which cats will you
hang out to dry, women, juniors, masters ?

[Bob Schwartz]

Eric Hollenbeck > wrote:
> Bob Schwartz > wrote in message >...
>> Never organized a race, have you?

>> Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you?

>> Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting,
>> have you?
>
>> Never compiled a race budget, have you?
>>
>> Never worked at a registration table, have you?

> I have done all these things... More than once.

So you have, my agologies.

> Now that we have gotten the pleasantries out of the way, what is soooo
> impossible about what I suggest? I'll be the first to admit it sounds
> utopian but I've seen it work and the main reason it hasn't here is
> that most grass roots race promoters (and local racing associations)
> who make an effort to streamline and optimize race organization
> eventually want a piece of the pie. That works fine for "pro" racing
> where the athletes are compensated but for grass roots racing

> I can't help but wonder what happened to the $5-$7 entry fees of old.
> Bob, you have been around longer than me, tell us how much you paid
> for race entry back in "the day".... OK..now, HOW did THEY possibly do
> it?

When I started racing the max entry fee was $6. Actually I don't think
we're that far apart in our thinking, but our perceptions of the
reality of promoting races in this country are pretty different.

Here is the required reading before I go on. This is a post by AHM
from a couple of years ago, explaining why running women's races was
costing him money. The current topic is different, but there are
important points here:

http://groups.google.com/groups?&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=19990421222952.18570.00000231%40ng138.aol.com&rnum=1

The first race I ever promoted was in 1993. We charged $5 and made
money on the race. This was only possible because I live in a place
where there are more cows than people so we had no police costs of
permit fees with any local unit of government. If we were somewhere
where people outnumbered cows we never would have been able to pull
it off. And we could never do that now, what is different is:

- The insurance fee doubled
- Single day licenses
- I realized that not having cops was an unacceptable risk
at certain intersections
- The local guy that was our official quit officiating. I was
able to compensate for this by getting my official's license
but if the event needs more than me I have to pay someone
to drive here.

When I first got into race promotion I was shooting for break even.
I very quickly realized this was not acceptable. I needed a lot of
volunteer help to pull races off and if all I had was a sense of
giving back to the sport to motivate people then people were going
to be avoiding me before races.

So I don't think there is any way I could charge $10 for a race and
pull it off. And my expenses are much lower than those for people
who live places where people outnumber cows.

I suppose I could spend time I don't have hustling sponsorship. I
like to think I have a grip on the promotional value of a bike race
in this country. In the vast majority of cases it is nothing, and
in some cases it is negative because having the bike race
irritates people. But we used to hustle local businesses for $50-$100
checks in exchange for a logo on the flyer. We stopped doing this
because no one have the time and it didn't seem worth it for the
money we brought in.

Currently our best source of sponsorship money is a guy in the
club that hits up the vendors that he does business with for
kickbacks. These people do not care at all about the sport or any
promotional opportunity it provides. They are interested in
doing business with the guy in the club. We have brought in much
more money this way than we ever did based on the promotional
value of a race or the club.

>> I will bet that the Belgians were working from a license database
>> with all the information you had on that race program and only had
>> to record who had actually shown up in order to generate the start
>> list. Which is a good idea, that is for sure.

> I never saw a single computer when I signed in at more than 200 races
> there. They had someone typing and someone (No ****) using one of
> those old hand crank presses..

Typically our club runs two races a year. One of them was this past
weekend. Last night I pulled entry forms at random and checked them
for ledgibility.

I don't know how the Belgians did it. But there is no way I could
pull it off without a huge error rate. Which is pretty much what
happens. The race last weekend was a time trial and I can pick
out all kinds of errors in the start list, which is just names.

After every race I pull together results. After every race I sort
through names and addresses on checks, internet race results, even
Yahoo people search, to verify names, hometowns, and club affiliations.
I flush a lot of time doing this after every race, even though
I can make a ton of corrections just through knowing the rider base
and people that come back every year.

So I guess this is possible depending on the error rate you are
comfortable with.

This year we did pre-entry and a late fee for the first time with
this race, using one of the online vendors (bikereg.com). I downloaded
the entry list (which had no errors in names or hometowns) and put
it on a CD for the timer. Who uploaded it painlessly. We had a record
turnout for the race yet it went more smoothly than years past when we
spent all our time before the race frantically scrambling to do what
you say should be easy. My experience was such that for next year I
plan on offering cheap entry only to people that enter online. People
that want to go though the mail will pay more and day of registration
will ante up the most. Because they make us work the hardest.

>> But until YOU have figured out how to get enough sponsorship
>> money to get away with charging low (if at all) entry fees, and
>> YOU have tried to round up enough volunteer labor to do that amount
>> of race day entry, and YOU have secured finances such that you
>> can tell the 50 guys that showed up with illegible entry forms
>> 5 minutes before the scheduled start time to buzz off...

> 1. Find a place that serves affordable food and (alcohol) drinks
> outdoors and is open in the afternoon
> 2. Tell them you want to have A (Yep just one , not 15 in a day) bike
> race which starts and finishes in front of their establishment which
> only will last 2-3 hours on a afternoon.
> 3. Tell them if they give you $1000 you will guarantee a return (not
> to mention exposure and a chance to enhance the community)
> 4. Have the race pass the restaurant a minimum 10 times.
> 5. Have the sign-in and awards at the restaurant.
> 6. Find another restaurant in another community and start at step 2.

> Sure you might not score with the first cafe whoops, I mean
> restaurant, you approach but eventually you will. Oh no, I've let the
> long lost secret out of the bag.

At the risk of repeating myself, have you actually done this? Convinced
someone to pay $1000 for the privilege of hosting a bike race? I know
at least one case where a race was told to get lost by a restaurant
owner (who was paying nothing) because driving his regular business
away was costing him more than the race brought in.

We've run many races hosted by local restaurants. They tolerate us only
if we run the race at a time that is typically slow for them. Once I
was told that I couldn't have a Saturday because they booked wedding
receptions on Saturdays and, ****, let's not compare the economic
impact there. Another told me I couldn't have a Sunday because they
booked private parties and... well I guess both were really the same
reason. A couple hundred bike racers and their friends do not have the
same impact that a much smaller group has that is bent on eating and
drinking with a purpose.

There is no way I could have hit on either of these places for money.
Stuff that works in Belgium does not work here. I am still not
convinced that you have pulled off races like you've described above.

Bob Schwartz

[Amit]

"inconnu" > wrote in message >...
> >> "I was appalled by the lack of organization, planning and
> >> professionalism by many of the teams attending our national
> >> championship. Some riders and team managers apparently have no respect
> >> for the sport."
> >
>
> Hmmmmmmmmmm.
>
> Well if the Organizers had some choice comments about the squads at the
> Canadian Nationals, I'm waiting for the choice comments the squads
> have about the organizers when they see the course.
>

Seriously, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. That it's a lousy
course ? or too hard ?

Not scenic enough ? Well Hamilton ain't Verona.

-Amit