Question about Race Tradition [Archive]

goulot

July 20th 03, 10:20 PM

No, they would quit and spend the last day playing volley ball on the
beaches of Paris-Plage

"Stewart Fleming" > a écrit dans le message de
...
> TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a
> procession and that no serious racing takes place until the
> Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden stage, but...
>
> ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on
> stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more
> in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage? Would
> US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?
>

goulot

July 20th 03, 10:46 PM

89

"Bruce Johnston" > a écrit dans le message de
...
>
> "Stewart Fleming" > wrote in message
> ...
> > TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a
> > procession and that no serious racing takes place until the
> > Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden stage, but...
> >
> > ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on
> > stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more
> > in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage? Would
> > US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?
>
> What year was the last time the TDF winner was decided on the last day?
>
> B-
>
>

Keith

July 20th 03, 10:46 PM

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:45:28 -0700, "Bruce Johnston"
> wrote:

>
>"Stewart Fleming" > wrote in message
...
>> TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a
>> procession and that no serious racing takes place until the
>> Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden stage, but...
>>
>> ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on
>> stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more
>> in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage? Would
>> US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?
>
>What year was the last time the TDF winner was decided on the last day?

1989, but it was an ITT ;-)

>
>B-
>

Darren S.

July 20th 03, 11:04 PM

"Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stewart Fleming" > wrote in message
> ...
> > TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a
> > procession and that no serious racing takes place until the
> > Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden stage, but...
> >
> > ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on
> > stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more
> > in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage? Would
> > US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?
>
> What year was the last time the TDF winner was decided on the last day?

Lemond/Fignon. But it was a TT.

D.

> B-
>
>

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Callistus Valerius

July 20th 03, 11:28 PM

> If they were name-calling xenophobes like you, probably.

I'd crash into the kraut when he's drinking the champagne.

benjo maso

July 20th 03, 11:41 PM

"Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Darren S." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Stewart Fleming" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is
a
> > > > procession and that no serious racing takes place until the
> > > > Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden stage,
but...
> > > >
> > > > ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb
on
> > > > stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds
> more
> > > > in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage?
> Would
> > > > US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?
> > >
> > > What year was the last time the TDF winner was decided on the last
day?
> >
> > Lemond/Fignon. But it was a TT.
>
> yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will leave that
> one for Masso.

Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question. In the history of
the Tour it happened only three times: in 1989 (TT), 1968 (also a TT) and
1947, when Robic (3d in the GC at 2'58") attacked 120 km before the finish
in Paris depriving poor Pierre Brambilla of the yellow jersey.

Benjo Maso

Nick Burns

July 20th 03, 11:46 PM

"Stewart Fleming" > wrote in message
...
> TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a
> procession and that no serious racing takes place until the
> Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden stage, but...
>
> ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on
> stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more
> in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage? Would
> US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason behind
them other than history. Historically there has usually not been sufficient
reason to attack on the last days because the GC has been firmly
established. For example, the yellow jersey going back to get water is
against tradition only because historically it would have been a back
strategic decision.

Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of the
general classification, then that becomes sufficient reason to attack the
current leader.

In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it would
be expected that any of the 3 would attack in order to become the final GC
winner. In other words, the expectation that Lance would launch an attack to
secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2 would
attack in order to defeat him. This expectation remains until one of the
riders is firmly established as the GC leader or the end of the race, which
ever comes first.

Ryan Cousineau

July 21st 03, 12:45 AM

In article >,
"Nick Burns" > wrote:

> "Stewart Fleming" > wrote in message
> ...
> > TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a
> > procession and that no serious racing takes place until the
> > Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden stage, but...
> >
> > ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on
> > stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more
> > in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage? Would
> > US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?
>
>
> Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason behind
> them other than history. Historically there has usually not been sufficient
> reason to attack on the last days because the GC has been firmly
> established. For example, the yellow jersey going back to get water is
> against tradition only because historically it would have been a back
> strategic decision.
>
>
>
> Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of the
> general classification, then that becomes sufficient reason to attack the
> current leader.
>
>
>
> In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it would
> be expected that any of the 3 would attack in order to become the final GC
> winner. In other words, the expectation that Lance would launch an attack to
> secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2 would
> attack in order to defeat him. This expectation remains until one of the
> riders is firmly established as the GC leader or the end of the race, which
> ever comes first.

Very astute. The other problem, though, is that winning the
Champs-Elysee stage is the most prestigious non-jersey accomplishment
you can manage at le Tour. Since the stage profile is always flat and
short (just over 150 km this year), every team in the race is willing to
attack and nail breakaways in order to neutralize the race until the 10
laps.

It's possible that if the GC is close, there will be an early attack,
but there is little chance it will succeed, unless USPS or Bianchi is a
stronger team than I think.

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

phantom

July 21st 03, 01:23 AM

[Posted and mailed]

In article >,
"Nick Burns" > writes:
>
> "Stewart Fleming" > wrote in message
> ...
>> TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a
>> procession and that no serious racing takes place until the
>> Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden stage, but...
>>
>> ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on
>> stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more
>> in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage? Would
>> US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?
>
>
> Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason behind
> them other than history. Historically there has usually not been sufficient
> reason to attack on the last days because the GC has been firmly
> established. For example, the yellow jersey going back to get water is
> against tradition only because historically it would have been a back
> strategic decision.
>
>
>
> Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of the
> general classification, then that becomes sufficient reason to attack the
> current leader.
>
>
>
> In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it would
> be expected that any of the 3 would attack in order to become the final GC
> winner. In other words, the expectation that Lance would launch an attack to
> secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2 would
> attack in order to defeat him. This expectation remains until one of the
> riders is firmly established as the GC leader or the end of the race, which
> ever comes first.
>
On a historical basis this begs the question, how will Lance Armstrong be seen,in years to come, for allowing the maillot jeune to tote water?

Wes

Nick Burns

July 21st 03, 01:29 AM

"Ryan Cousineau" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Nick Burns" > wrote:
>
> > "Stewart Fleming" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a
> > > procession and that no serious racing takes place until the
> > > Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden stage, but...
> > >
> > > ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on
> > > stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds
more
> > > in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage?
Would
> > > US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?
> >
> >
> > Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason
behind
> > them other than history. Historically there has usually not been
sufficient
> > reason to attack on the last days because the GC has been firmly
> > established. For example, the yellow jersey going back to get water is
> > against tradition only because historically it would have been a back
> > strategic decision.
> >
> >
> >
> > Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of
the
> > general classification, then that becomes sufficient reason to attack
the
> > current leader.
> >
> >
> >
> > In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it
would
> > be expected that any of the 3 would attack in order to become the final
GC
> > winner. In other words, the expectation that Lance would launch an
attack to
> > secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2 would
> > attack in order to defeat him. This expectation remains until one of the
> > riders is firmly established as the GC leader or the end of the race,
which
> > ever comes first.
>
> Very astute. The other problem, though, is that winning the
> Champs-Elysee stage is the most prestigious non-jersey accomplishment
> you can manage at le Tour. Since the stage profile is always flat and
> short (just over 150 km this year), every team in the race is willing to
> attack and nail breakaways in order to neutralize the race until the 10
> laps.
>
> It's possible that if the GC is close, there will be an early attack,
> but there is little chance it will succeed, unless USPS or Bianchi is a
> stronger team than I think.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
> President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

In that case you may see a breakaway that has one of the 3 working with
others that want a shot at the stage win. The GC contender would agree to
not dispute the stage in exchange for hauling ass in the break along with
support from whatever the team can do to slow the chase. However, as you
point out they would be working against any teams that are left out and
especially teams with sprinters that hope to take the stage. Combine that
with any other teams shooting for additional green jersey points and this
hypothetical break is doomed. Still, my point is that anything goes when the
jersey is not well established.

Corey Green

July 21st 03, 01:37 AM

"Nick Burns" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ryan Cousineau" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Nick Burns" > wrote:
> >
> > > "Stewart Fleming" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is
a
> > > > procession and that no serious racing takes place until the
> > > > Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden stage,
but...
> > > >
> > > > ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb
on
> > > > stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds
> more
> > > > in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage?
> Would
> > > > US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?
> > >
> > >
> > > Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason
> behind
> > > them other than history. Historically there has usually not been
> sufficient
> > > reason to attack on the last days because the GC has been firmly
> > > established. For example, the yellow jersey going back to get water is
> > > against tradition only because historically it would have been a back
> > > strategic decision.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of
> the
> > > general classification, then that becomes sufficient reason to attack
> the
> > > current leader.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it
> would
> > > be expected that any of the 3 would attack in order to become the
final
> GC
> > > winner. In other words, the expectation that Lance would launch an
> attack to
> > > secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2
would
> > > attack in order to defeat him. This expectation remains until one of
the
> > > riders is firmly established as the GC leader or the end of the race,
> which
> > > ever comes first.
> >
> > Very astute. The other problem, though, is that winning the
> > Champs-Elysee stage is the most prestigious non-jersey accomplishment
> > you can manage at le Tour. Since the stage profile is always flat and
> > short (just over 150 km this year), every team in the race is willing to
> > attack and nail breakaways in order to neutralize the race until the 10
> > laps.
> >
> > It's possible that if the GC is close, there will be an early attack,
> > but there is little chance it will succeed, unless USPS or Bianchi is a
> > stronger team than I think.
> >
> > --
> > Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
> > President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
>
>
>
> In that case you may see a breakaway that has one of the 3 working with
> others that want a shot at the stage win. The GC contender would agree to
> not dispute the stage in exchange for hauling ass in the break along with
> support from whatever the team can do to slow the chase. However, as you
> point out they would be working against any teams that are left out and
> especially teams with sprinters that hope to take the stage. Combine that
> with any other teams shooting for additional green jersey points and this
> hypothetical break is doomed. Still, my point is that anything goes when
the
> jersey is not well established.
>
>

Could be the best one-day race ever....

Stewart Fleming

July 21st 03, 01:46 AM

benjo maso wrote:

> Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question. In the history of
> the Tour it happened only three times: in 1989 (TT), 1968 (also a TT) and
> 1947, when Robic (3d in the GC at 2'58") attacked 120 km before the finish
> in Paris depriving poor Pierre Brambilla of the yellow jersey.

Follow-up question then:

Who is/are the senior riders or the senior team that would prevent or
discourage this from happening? Sort of the Duclos-Lassalle role...

McEwen would be beside himself if it didn't come down to the usual sprint.

benjo maso

July 21st 03, 01:58 AM

"Stewart Fleming" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> benjo maso wrote:
>
> > Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question. In the history
of
> > the Tour it happened only three times: in 1989 (TT), 1968 (also a TT)
and
> > 1947, when Robic (3d in the GC at 2'58") attacked 120 km before the
finish
> > in Paris depriving poor Pierre Brambilla of the yellow jersey.
>
> Follow-up question then:
>
> Who is/are the senior riders or the senior team that would prevent or
> discourage this from happening? Sort of the Duclos-Lassalle role...
>
> McEwen would be beside himself if it didn't come down to the usual sprint.

There has never been some "grand old man" who tried to prevent it or
something like that. In 1914 Pélissier attacked Philippe Thys and in 1979
Zoetemelk attacked Hinault in the last stage because they hoped to win and
nobody blamed them. Of course teams with a good sprinter will do everything
to impede such actions, but only because they want to win themselves, not
because it's against some etiquette.

Benjo Maso

Carl Sundquist

July 21st 03, 02:05 AM

"benjo maso" > wrote in message
> >
> > yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will leave
that
> > one for Masso.
>
>
> Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question.
> Benjo Maso
>

We understand.

Mr. LVM-L Stalker/Name Butcher seems to think the second five-time TdF
winner was Merck.

Corey Green

July 21st 03, 02:07 AM

"Nick Burns" > wrote in message
...
>
> "phantom" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > [Posted and mailed]
> >
> > In article >,
> > "Nick Burns" > writes:
> > >
> > > "Stewart Fleming" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >> TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a
> > >> procession and that no serious racing takes place until the
> > >> Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden stage,
but...
> > >>
> > >> ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb
on
> > >> stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds
> more
> > >> in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage?
> Would
> > >> US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?
> > >
> > >
> > > Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason
> behind
> > > them other than history. Historically there has usually not been
> sufficient
> > > reason to attack on the last days because the GC has been firmly
> > > established. For example, the yellow jersey going back to get water is
> > > against tradition only because historically it would have been a back
> > > strategic decision.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of
> the
> > > general classification, then that becomes sufficient reason to attack
> the
> > > current leader.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it
> would
> > > be expected that any of the 3 would attack in order to become the
final
> GC
> > > winner. In other words, the expectation that Lance would launch an
> attack to
> > > secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2
would
> > > attack in order to defeat him. This expectation remains until one of
the
> > > riders is firmly established as the GC leader or the end of the race,
> which
> > > ever comes first.
> > >
> > On a historical basis this begs the question, how will Lance Armstrong
be
> seen,in years to come, for allowing the maillot jeune to tote water?
> >
> > Wes
>
> It is a non-issue to everyone but Usenet users.
>
>

I can just see the Lotto guys yelling "Hey - you are breaking tradition! Get
back here!"

I am sure that USPS, Telekom and Bianchi will give a **** about what
everyone else thinks.

This all assumes that Robbie McWhiner doesn't push everyone into a ditch
along the way.

Kurgan Gringioni

July 21st 03, 02:36 AM

"Corey Green" > wrote in message
...
> > > Very astute. The other problem, though, is that winning the
> > > Champs-Elysee stage is the most prestigious non-jersey accomplishment
> > > you can manage at le Tour. Since the stage profile is always flat and
> > > short (just over 150 km this year), every team in the race is willing
to
> > > attack and nail breakaways in order to neutralize the race until the
10
> > > laps.
> > >
> > > It's possible that if the GC is close, there will be an early attack,
> > > but there is little chance it will succeed, unless USPS or Bianchi is
a
> > > stronger team than I think.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
> > > President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
> >
> >
> >
> > In that case you may see a breakaway that has one of the 3 working with
> > others that want a shot at the stage win. The GC contender would agree
to
> > not dispute the stage in exchange for hauling ass in the break along
with
> > support from whatever the team can do to slow the chase. However, as you
> > point out they would be working against any teams that are left out and
> > especially teams with sprinters that hope to take the stage. Combine
that
> > with any other teams shooting for additional green jersey points and
this
> > hypothetical break is doomed. Still, my point is that anything goes when
> the
> > jersey is not well established.
> >
> >
>
> Could be the best one-day race ever....

Goddam, you guys are dreamers.

It's a FLAT, short stage.

The sprinters will want to win it, their teams will help keep it together.
And all 1st place has to do is sit on 2nd place's wheel the entire day. Him
and his whole team. 2nd place would have no chance of getting away.

Corey Green

July 21st 03, 02:46 AM

"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message ...
>
> > "Corey Green" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > Could be the best one-day race ever....
>
>
>
> Goddam, you guys are dreamers.
>
> It's a FLAT, short stage.
>
> The sprinters will want to win it, their teams will help keep it together.
> And all 1st place has to do is sit on 2nd place's wheel the entire day.
Him
> and his whole team. 2nd place would have no chance of getting away.
>

Yes, short stage, but a short stage with 3 intermediate sprints, and a final
sprint. Each of these sprints have time bonuses, which would be huge to each
team in contention IF the GC is very close.

Of course there are sprinters in the field, but anyone in contention is
going to be willing to take the risks necessary for these time bonuses. Of
course each of these GC contenders will be watched extremely close, but that
doesn't mean they won't try. And yes 1st place simply has to sit on the
wheel of 2nd place, but that doesn't guarantee him outsprinting him to the
line.

If am down 15" to the leader and I know that I can gain 20" by winning the
stage, I am going to do absolutely everything in my power to win that damn
stage. Doesn't mean it is possible, but damn it there is a full year to
recover from stage 20.

Armstrong, Ullrich, and Vinokourov aren't necessarily very good sprinters,
but they also don't typically give a **** about sprints because they are
meaningless when you can gain 30 minutes on a sprinter in the mountains.
Time bonuses alone will make the stage interesting.

Kurgan Gringioni

July 21st 03, 02:47 AM

"Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message

> >
> > Mr. LVM-L Stalker/Name Butcher seems to think the second five-time TdF
> > winner was Merck.
>
> Stalker nah, name butcher not true. Merckx and Maso wasn't intentional.
> Second five time winner... I don't where you get this stuff but if you got
> anymore problems with me I guess we could get together and sort it out.

Are you offering to be bottom?

Carl Sundquist

July 21st 03, 02:48 AM

"Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "benjo maso" > wrote in message
> > > >
> > > > yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will leave
> > that
> > > > one for Masso.
> > >
> > >
> > > Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question.
> > > Benjo Maso
> > >
> >
> > We understand.
> >
> > Mr. LVM-L Stalker/Name Butcher seems to think the second five-time TdF
> > winner was Merck.
>
> Stalker nah, name butcher not true. Merckx and Maso wasn't intentional.
> Second five time winner... I don't where you get this stuff but if you got
> anymore problems with me I guess we could get together and sort it out.
>
> B-
>
>

In a Texas second, Tuff Guy?

Stewart Fleming

July 21st 03, 02:56 AM

Corey Green wrote:

> I can just see the Lotto guys yelling "Hey - you are breaking tradition! Get
> back here!"

My failing memory prompts me to suggest that such comments HAVE in fact
been heard when some neophyte has attempted a break on the final stage.

Stewart Fleming

July 21st 03, 03:01 AM

benjo maso wrote:

> There has never been some "grand old man" who tried to prevent it or
> something like that. In 1914 Pélissier attacked Philippe Thys and in 1979
> Zoetemelk attacked Hinault in the last stage because they hoped to win and
> nobody blamed them. Of course teams with a good sprinter will do everything
> to impede such actions, but only because they want to win themselves, not
> because it's against some etiquette.

The intention of the Champs-Elysees finish was to increase the spectator
potential and (my opinion), the race organizers encourage a parade to
Paris (a bit like the gladiators entering the Coliseum) and the racing
only begins in the 10 laps. There HAVE been breakaways but by and large
a sprint finish is on the cards. I wonder what Sean Kelly will say
about it, if it becomes an issue (it may not).

However, what a mouth-watering prospect a yellow jersey led breakaway
would be. If that raised spectator excitement, then few would criticise
it afterwards.

Kurgan Gringioni

July 21st 03, 03:02 AM

"Corey Green" > wrote in message
...

>
> Armstrong, Ullrich, and Vinokourov aren't necessarily very good sprinters,
> but they also don't typically give a **** about sprints because they are
> meaningless when you can gain 30 minutes on a sprinter in the mountains.
> Time bonuses alone will make the stage interesting.

Those guys are crappy sprinters, as well they should be since they don't
have a lot of fast twitch and they don't train for sprints. They won't be
able to get top 3 in an intermediate sprint vs. the real sprinters.

dream on.

Kurgan Gringioni

July 21st 03, 03:02 AM

"Stewart Fleming" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Corey Green wrote:
>
> > I can just see the Lotto guys yelling "Hey - you are breaking tradition!
Get
> > back here!"
>
> My failing memory prompts me to suggest that such comments HAVE in fact
> been heard when some neophyte has attempted a break on the final stage.

Spotted Dick has done it.

Nick Burns

July 21st 03, 03:03 AM

"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message ...
>
> "Corey Green" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > > Very astute. The other problem, though, is that winning the
> > > > Champs-Elysee stage is the most prestigious non-jersey
accomplishment
> > > > you can manage at le Tour. Since the stage profile is always flat
and
> > > > short (just over 150 km this year), every team in the race is
willing
> to
> > > > attack and nail breakaways in order to neutralize the race until the
> 10
> > > > laps.
> > > >
> > > > It's possible that if the GC is close, there will be an early
attack,
> > > > but there is little chance it will succeed, unless USPS or Bianchi
is
> a
> > > > stronger team than I think.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
> > > > President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In that case you may see a breakaway that has one of the 3 working
with
> > > others that want a shot at the stage win. The GC contender would agree
> to
> > > not dispute the stage in exchange for hauling ass in the break along
> with
> > > support from whatever the team can do to slow the chase. However, as
you
> > > point out they would be working against any teams that are left out
and
> > > especially teams with sprinters that hope to take the stage. Combine
> that
> > > with any other teams shooting for additional green jersey points and
> this
> > > hypothetical break is doomed. Still, my point is that anything goes
when
> > the
> > > jersey is not well established.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Could be the best one-day race ever....
>
>
>
> Goddam, you guys are dreamers.
>
> It's a FLAT, short stage.
>
> The sprinters will want to win it, their teams will help keep it together.
> And all 1st place has to do is sit on 2nd place's wheel the entire day.
Him
> and his whole team. 2nd place would have no chance of getting away.

I assume you are talking about the last day. If you are, then I agree. I am
not dreaming I am simply pointing out that it is not impossible and it is
not "against tradition". It is simply highly unlikely because it is
virtually impossible to gain anything. If the difference betwen any of them
still is very low then it may be worth the risk.

Corey Green

July 21st 03, 03:06 AM

"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message ...
>
> "Corey Green" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > Armstrong, Ullrich, and Vinokourov aren't necessarily very good
sprinters,
> > but they also don't typically give a **** about sprints because they are
> > meaningless when you can gain 30 minutes on a sprinter in the mountains.
> > Time bonuses alone will make the stage interesting.
>
>
>
>
> Those guys are crappy sprinters, as well they should be since they don't
> have a lot of fast twitch and they don't train for sprints. They won't be
> able to get top 3 in an intermediate sprint vs. the real sprinters.
>
>
> dream on.
>
>

I am not arguing that - but it won't be a parade. If one is behind the other
by less than 20" they will die trying. Their team and their fans expect
nothing less.

Kurgan Gringioni

July 21st 03, 03:23 AM

"Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
...
>
> My un-intentional name assassination verses your character assassination.
> Seems like there is a gauntlet, usually you or Henry.

I'm not stupid enough to challenge people to fights on usenet.

Others are:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=texas+second+group:rec.bicycles.racing+au t
hor:bruce+author:johnston&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3e581701%241%40news.sti.ne
t&rnum=1

From: Bruce Johnston )
Subject: Re: Armstrong, Wife seperate
View: Complete Thread (57 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Date: 2003-02-22 16:34:19 PST

Listen you jackass sack of ****. If you were to say that to my face, I would
put you on your back in a texas second. You are a sports marketing executive
that probaby sits on his ass all day. You probably don't even ride a bike.
It's nice to sit behind a PC and talk **** and say things you would not
normally say in public. Do you normally go around telling people in the
office that they have their heads up their ass? I didn't train in Martial
Arts for 12 years to take **** like that from you. I hope I don't run into
your sorry ass, because I am sure I will kick it!!

kiss off sports marketing executive jackass...
--------------------
"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message et...
>
> "Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
> ...
> So Bruce, until you can show some data other than your-head-up-your-ass
> opinion, perhaps you should shut up. That would be good for you, but bad
for
> me.
>
> What the hell am I talking about? Bruce Johnston knows more about that
stuff
> than advertising and marketing executives.
>
> I apologize for challenging your exalted opinion. Please forgive me
>
>
>
> K. Gringioni
> former rbr troublemaker
> now a disciple of head-up-his-ass Bruce Johnston
>
> http://members.aol.com/evank40767/arguing.jpg
>
>

le gopheur de chuckhole

July 21st 03, 03:24 AM

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:36:26 -0700, "Bruce Johnston"
> wrote:

>
>"Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "benjo maso" > wrote in message
>> > >
>> > > yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will leave
>> that
>> > > one for Masso.
>> >
>> >
>> > Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question.
>> > Benjo Maso
>> >
>>
>> We understand.
>>
>> Mr. LVM-L Stalker/Name Butcher seems to think the second five-time TdF
>> winner was Merck.
>
>Stalker nah, name butcher not true. Merckx and Maso wasn't intentional.
>Second five time winner... I don't where you get this stuff but if you got
>anymore problems with me I guess we could get together and sort it out.
>
>B-
>

How 'bout you "get together and sort it out" by doing a pursuit
against him? Put your money where your mouth is? The loser
never posts to rbr again.

gopher <--- wondering if it's that easy to never read a BJ post
again.

TritonRider

July 21st 03, 03:28 AM

>From: "Bruce Johnston"

>My un-intentional name assassination verses your character assassination.
>Seems like there is a gauntlet, usually you or Henry. Why don't you two guys
>look into seeing if usenet would change the rules for RBR and then you guys
>could decide who enters or leaves RBR. Moderator, you and Henry can take
>turns. I mean really, what is the problem Carl? I don't go around trashing
>you like some do to Pappy. I happen to think Pappy is cool, he takes a lot
>of heat but he is never uncivil. Sorry Carl if I rubbed you the wrong way, I
>never meant to.
>
>B-
>
>

This is one of the most rational posts I've seen here in a while. I guess that
Bruce will now catch **** from all directions with some thrown at Ken just for
being a decent human being.
Bill C

Kurgan Gringioni

July 21st 03, 03:30 AM

"Corey Green" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
> message ...
> >
> > "Corey Green" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > >
> > > Armstrong, Ullrich, and Vinokourov aren't necessarily very good
> sprinters,
> > > but they also don't typically give a **** about sprints because they
are
> > > meaningless when you can gain 30 minutes on a sprinter in the
mountains.
> > > Time bonuses alone will make the stage interesting.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Those guys are crappy sprinters, as well they should be since they don't
> > have a lot of fast twitch and they don't train for sprints. They won't
be
> > able to get top 3 in an intermediate sprint vs. the real sprinters.
> >
> >
> > dream on.
> >
> >
>
> I am not arguing that - but it won't be a parade. If one is behind the
other
> by less than 20" they will die trying.

These GC guys have no hope on the Champs Elysees and the time bonuses for
the intermediate sprints are too small (IIRC - 6,4,2).

If the time gaps were small enough for the intermediate sprints to be a
difference, then all the 1st place team needs to do is pay a few sprinters
to eat up the bonuses.

Kurgan Gringioni

July 21st 03, 03:34 AM

"TritonRider" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Bruce Johnston"
>
> >My un-intentional name assassination verses your character
assassination.
> >Seems like there is a gauntlet, usually you or Henry. Why don't you two
guys
> >look into seeing if usenet would change the rules for RBR and then you
guys
> >could decide who enters or leaves RBR. Moderator, you and Henry can take
> >turns. I mean really, what is the problem Carl? I don't go around
trashing
> >you like some do to Pappy. I happen to think Pappy is cool, he takes a
lot
> >of heat but he is never uncivil. Sorry Carl if I rubbed you the wrong
way, I
> >never meant to.
> >
> >B-
> >
> >
>
> This is one of the most rational posts I've seen here in a while.

He's not always rational. For your amusement, this is what Carl is referring
to:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=texas+second+group:rec.bicycles.racing+au t
hor:bruce+author:johnston&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3e581701%241%40news.sti.ne
t&rnum=1

From: Bruce Johnston )
Subject: Re: Armstrong, Wife seperate
View: Complete Thread (57 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Date: 2003-02-22 16:34:19 PST

Listen you jackass sack of ****. If you were to say that to my face, I would
put you on your back in a texas second. You are a sports marketing executive
that probaby sits on his ass all day. You probably don't even ride a bike.
It's nice to sit behind a PC and talk **** and say things you would not
normally say in public. Do you normally go around telling people in the
office that they have their heads up their ass? I didn't train in Martial
Arts for 12 years to take **** like that from you. I hope I don't run into
your sorry ass, because I am sure I will kick it!!

kiss off sports marketing executive jackass...
--------------------
"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message et...
>
> "Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
> ...
> So Bruce, until you can show some data other than your-head-up-your-ass
> opinion, perhaps you should shut up. That would be good for you, but bad
for
> me.
>
> What the hell am I talking about? Bruce Johnston knows more about that
stuff
> than advertising and marketing executives.
>
> I apologize for challenging your exalted opinion. Please forgive me
>
>
>
> K. Gringioni
> former rbr troublemaker
> now a disciple of head-up-his-ass Bruce Johnston
>
> http://members.aol.com/evank40767/arguing.jpg
>
>

TritonRider

July 21st 03, 03:51 AM

>From: "Kurgan Gringioni"

>He's not always rational. For your amusement, this is what Carl is referring
>to:

<snip>
As far as I can tell you take great satisfaction from pushing people into the
irrational. I am usually amused by the reactions you provoke. You've gotten me
a few times too. After the fact I was amused at that too. (Homer
Simpson-"DOH").
It seems to me that you treat everything that goes on here as a game and that
is not necessarily a bad thing. It just needs to be a considered factor in
responding to you.
Kinda like AF Basic. I was older when I did it, and knew the game before it
even started. As long as you know it's a game, it's a lot easier.
Some of us aren't always playing the game. I have better ways to amuse myself
(insert typical RBR whacking off comment here in response) than always play the
game.
Ken seems to me to be a pretty decent person who catches a whole lot more ****
than he deserves.
Bill C

Bruce Johnston

July 21st 03, 03:53 AM

I apologize for that Henry, to both you and Carl. I lost my head but you
were most unkind in what was really nothing worth really getting that hot
about. That was a nasty thread all the way around. I wish it never happened.

B-

"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message ...
>
> "TritonRider" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >From: "Bruce Johnston"
> >
> > >My un-intentional name assassination verses your character
> assassination.
> > >Seems like there is a gauntlet, usually you or Henry. Why don't you two
> guys
> > >look into seeing if usenet would change the rules for RBR and then you
> guys
> > >could decide who enters or leaves RBR. Moderator, you and Henry can
take
> > >turns. I mean really, what is the problem Carl? I don't go around
> trashing
> > >you like some do to Pappy. I happen to think Pappy is cool, he takes a
> lot
> > >of heat but he is never uncivil. Sorry Carl if I rubbed you the wrong
> way, I
> > >never meant to.
> > >
> > >B-
> > >
> > >
> >
> > This is one of the most rational posts I've seen here in a while.
>
>
> He's not always rational. For your amusement, this is what Carl is
referring
> to:
>
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=texas+second+group:rec.bicycles.racing+au t
>
hor:bruce+author:johnston&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3e581701%241%40news.sti.ne
> t&rnum=1
>
> From: Bruce Johnston )
> Subject: Re: Armstrong, Wife seperate
> View: Complete Thread (57 articles)
> Original Format
> Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
> Date: 2003-02-22 16:34:19 PST
>
> Listen you jackass sack of ****. If you were to say that to my face, I
would
> put you on your back in a texas second. You are a sports marketing
executive
> that probaby sits on his ass all day. You probably don't even ride a bike.
> It's nice to sit behind a PC and talk **** and say things you would not
> normally say in public. Do you normally go around telling people in the
> office that they have their heads up their ass? I didn't train in Martial
> Arts for 12 years to take **** like that from you. I hope I don't run into
> your sorry ass, because I am sure I will kick it!!
>
> kiss off sports marketing executive jackass...
> --------------------
> "Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
> message et...
> >
> > "Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > So Bruce, until you can show some data other than your-head-up-your-ass
> > opinion, perhaps you should shut up. That would be good for you, but bad
> for
> > me.
> >
> > What the hell am I talking about? Bruce Johnston knows more about that
> stuff
> > than advertising and marketing executives.
> >
> > I apologize for challenging your exalted opinion. Please forgive me
> >
> >
> >
> > K. Gringioni
> > former rbr troublemaker
> > now a disciple of head-up-his-ass Bruce Johnston
> >
> > http://members.aol.com/evank40767/arguing.jpg
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Bruce Johnston

July 21st 03, 04:04 AM

"Dashi Toshii" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "benjo maso" > wrote in message
> > > > >
> > > > > yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will
leave
> > > that
> > > > > one for Masso.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question.
> > > > Benjo Maso
> > > >
> > >
> > > We understand.
> > >
> > > Mr. LVM-L Stalker/Name Butcher seems to think the second five-time TdF
> > > winner was Merck.
> >
> > Stalker nah, name butcher not true. Merckx and Maso wasn't intentional.
> > Second five time winner... I don't where you get this stuff but if you
got
> > anymore problems with me I guess we could get together and sort it out.
> >
> > B-
>
> Bruce: Not trying to incite a riot here but what makes you think that you
> can kick everyone's ass?
>
> Being a black belt in Karate doesn't mean diddly, anyone with any boxing
> experience would kick your ass without a problem.

Yes, true, just a black belt doesn't mean much. It really takes years and
years of both Karate, boxing and kick boxing helps a lot. Like I said, I am
the first to admit I am not that tuff. But considering if you are training
to defend yourself in everyday life, then basic black belt usually carries
pretty good edge except against a gun. Knifes never scared me that much. I
have had gang members pull knifes on me and I talked my way out, because
they were too young to get in a serious fight with. The other day a guy at
Taco Bell threatened to kick my ass for looking at his girlfriend. He was
just a young kid, and I just talked to him a while. I usually avoid
confrontations, I don't have the time for such nonsense unless you get
jumped in the streets then you have to scrap.
>
> Your "Kata" is worthless, nothing but arm punches.
>
> Dashii
>
>
> >
> >
>
>

Mack Mad

July 21st 03, 04:06 AM

"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message ...
>
> "Corey Green" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
> > message ...
> > >
> > > "Corey Green" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Armstrong, Ullrich, and Vinokourov aren't necessarily very good
> > sprinters,
> > > > but they also don't typically give a **** about sprints because they
> are
> > > > meaningless when you can gain 30 minutes on a sprinter in the
> mountains.
> > > > Time bonuses alone will make the stage interesting.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Those guys are crappy sprinters, as well they should be since they
don't
> > > have a lot of fast twitch and they don't train for sprints. They won't
> be
> > > able to get top 3 in an intermediate sprint vs. the real sprinters.
> > >
> > >
> > > dream on.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I am not arguing that - but it won't be a parade. If one is behind the
> other
> > by less than 20" they will die trying.
>
>
>
> These GC guys have no hope on the Champs Elysees and the time bonuses for
> the intermediate sprints are too small (IIRC - 6,4,2).
>
> If the time gaps were small enough for the intermediate sprints to be a
> difference, then all the 1st place team needs to do is pay a few sprinters
> to eat up the bonuses.
>
>

So, your saying that if you are Lance or Jan and you are down by 15" going
into the final stage that you walk onto the team bus and announce it's over?
Tell them they worked hard, busted their ass getting water and food for you,
and that you are quitting despite the fact that there are 38" available on
the course that you don't want to risk anything for?

That seems like a real good strategy to build and motivate a team. Just
****ing quit.

I am sure your sponsors would love to hear that pep talk.

Cie la vie!

Bruce Johnston

July 21st 03, 04:11 AM

"le gopheur de chuckhole" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:36:26 -0700, "Bruce Johnston"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "benjo maso" > wrote in message
> >> > >
> >> > > yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will
leave
> >> that
> >> > > one for Masso.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question.
> >> > Benjo Maso
> >> >
> >>
> >> We understand.
> >>
> >> Mr. LVM-L Stalker/Name Butcher seems to think the second five-time TdF
> >> winner was Merck.
> >
> >Stalker nah, name butcher not true. Merckx and Maso wasn't intentional.
> >Second five time winner... I don't where you get this stuff but if you
got
> >anymore problems with me I guess we could get together and sort it out.
> >
> >B-
> >
>
>
> How 'bout you "get together and sort it out" by doing a pursuit
> against him? Put your money where your mouth is? The loser
> never posts to rbr again.

Carl probably beat me in that one.
>
>
> gopher <--- wondering if it's that easy to never read a BJ post
> again.

Just use the kill file.

B-

Kurgan Gringioni

July 21st 03, 04:33 AM

"TritonRider" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Kurgan Gringioni"
>
> >He's not always rational. For your amusement, this is what Carl is
referring
> >to:
>
> <snip>
> As far as I can tell you take great satisfaction from pushing people into
the
> irrational. I am usually amused by the reactions you provoke.

I concur.

>You've gotten me
> a few times too. After the fact I was amused at that too. (Homer
> Simpson-"DOH").
> It seems to me that you treat everything that goes on here as a game and
that
> is not necessarily a bad thing. It just needs to be a considered factor in
> responding to you.
> Kinda like AF Basic. I was older when I did it, and knew the game before
it
> even started.

AF = Air Force?

Kurgan Gringioni

July 21st 03, 04:34 AM

"Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
...
> I apologize for that Henry, to both you and Carl. I lost my head but you
> were most unkind in what was really nothing worth really getting that hot
> about. That was a nasty thread all the way around. I wish it never
happened.

No need to apologize - it's great fun when people lose their head.

Kurgan Gringioni

July 21st 03, 04:36 AM

"Mack Mad" > wrote in message
...
> > > >
> > >
> > > I am not arguing that - but it won't be a parade. If one is behind the
> > other
> > > by less than 20" they will die trying.
> >
> >
> >
> > These GC guys have no hope on the Champs Elysees and the time bonuses
for
> > the intermediate sprints are too small (IIRC - 6,4,2).
> >
> > If the time gaps were small enough for the intermediate sprints to be a
> > difference, then all the 1st place team needs to do is pay a few
sprinters
> > to eat up the bonuses.
> >
> >
>
> So, your saying that if you are Lance or Jan and you are down by 15" going
> into the final stage that you walk onto the team bus and announce it's
over?

What if the last stage was a mountaintop finish and your sprinter is behind
by one point in the green jersey competition?

What is he to do, say "I'm going to score points in the mountains!"? Not
going to happen.

The race will be over after the ITT.

Jay Pique

July 21st 03, 05:01 AM

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:17:00 -0700, "Bruce Johnston"
> wrote:

>
>"Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > >
>> > > "benjo maso" > wrote in message
>> > > > >
>> > > > > yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will
>leave
>> > > that
>> > > > > one for Masso.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question.
>> > > > Benjo Maso
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > We understand.
>> > >
>> > > Mr. LVM-L Stalker/Name Butcher seems to think the second five-time TdF
>> > > winner was Merck.
>> >
>> > Stalker nah, name butcher not true. Merckx and Maso wasn't intentional.
>> > Second five time winner... I don't where you get this stuff but if you
>got
>> > anymore problems with me I guess we could get together and sort it out.
>> >
>> > B-
>> >
>> >
>>
>> In a Texas second, Tuff Guy?
>
>I have had my ass kicked plenty of times, knifes and guns pulled on me. My
>best friend was navy seal, his name was Joe Franco from Livingston
>California. We used to kick the crap out of each other. I also trained
>another guy who was full contact fighter in Marines. I trained in Tae Kwon
>Do, kick boxing and chinese arts for about 12 years. I'm not that tuff, at
>least not in Fresno. I was second degree black, but i'm rusty now. I just
>don't deserve the constant crap from you and I reacted.

Then have I got a guy you need to meet - he hangs out over on
rec.skiing.alpine and it sounds like you two are made for each other.

JP

Bruce Johnston

July 21st 03, 06:20 AM

"Jay Pique" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:17:00 -0700, "Bruce Johnston"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> > "Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> > >
> >> > > "benjo maso" > wrote in message
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will
> >leave
> >> > > that
> >> > > > > one for Masso.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question.
> >> > > > Benjo Maso
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > We understand.
> >> > >
> >> > > Mr. LVM-L Stalker/Name Butcher seems to think the second five-time
TdF
> >> > > winner was Merck.
> >> >
> >> > Stalker nah, name butcher not true. Merckx and Maso wasn't
intentional.
> >> > Second five time winner... I don't where you get this stuff but if
you
> >got
> >> > anymore problems with me I guess we could get together and sort it
out.
> >> >
> >> > B-
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> In a Texas second, Tuff Guy?
> >
> >I have had my ass kicked plenty of times, knifes and guns pulled on me.
My
> >best friend was navy seal, his name was Joe Franco from Livingston
> >California. We used to kick the crap out of each other. I also trained
> >another guy who was full contact fighter in Marines. I trained in Tae
Kwon
> >Do, kick boxing and chinese arts for about 12 years. I'm not that tuff,
at
> >least not in Fresno. I was second degree black, but i'm rusty now. I just
> >don't deserve the constant crap from you and I reacted.
>
> Then have I got a guy you need to meet - he hangs out over on
> rec.skiing.alpine and it sounds like you two are made for each other.

I haven't fought in Karate Tournaments for a while. I am not up to the level
of competition in my division since I dislocated both knees several times in
matches. I took up cycling for rehab back in my 20's. We had plenty of black
belts here to train with. I used to go Moores Karate quite a bit and spar
with their instructors. It does bother me when people constantly go around
trashing the same posters when they don't deserve it. I just speak out when
they goat me into it. Pappy is probably the nicest guy in this group and he
takes the most crap. Why is that? I don't know but I do speak out from time
to time.

B-

Carl Sundquist

July 21st 03, 08:03 AM

"Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Bruce Johnston" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "benjo maso" > wrote in message
> > > > > >
> > > > > > yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will
> leave
> > > > that
> > > > > > one for Masso.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question.
> > > > > Benjo Maso
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > We understand.
> > > >
> > > > Mr. LVM-L Stalker/Name Butcher seems to think the second five-time TdF
> > > > winner was Merck.
> > >
> > > Stalker nah, name butcher not true. Merckx and Maso wasn't intentional.
> > > Second five time winner... I don't where you get this stuff but if you
> got
> > > anymore problems with me I guess we could get together and sort it out.
> > >
> > > B-
> > >
> > >
> >
> > In a Texas second, Tuff Guy?
>
> I have had my ass kicked plenty of times, knifes and guns pulled on me. My
> best friend was navy seal, his name was Joe Franco from Livingston
> California. We used to kick the crap out of each other. I also trained
> another guy who was full contact fighter in Marines. I trained in Tae Kwon
> Do, kick boxing and chinese arts for about 12 years. I'm not that tuff, at
> least not in Fresno. I was second degree black, but i'm rusty now. I just
> don't deserve the constant crap from you and I reacted.
>
> My un-intentional name assassination verses your character assassination.
> Seems like there is a gauntlet, usually you or Henry. Why don't you two guys
> look into seeing if usenet would change the rules for RBR and then you guys
> could decide who enters or leaves RBR. Moderator, you and Henry can take
> turns. I mean really, what is the problem Carl? I don't go around trashing
> you like some do to Pappy. I happen to think Pappy is cool, he takes a lot
> of heat but he is never uncivil. Sorry Carl if I rubbed you the wrong way, I
> never meant to.
>
> B-
>

Over the past year, I've called you a name butcher, long-winded, and a stalker. If you consider that constant, I can't help that.

Unintentional or not, you can't deny the name butchering:

http://tinyurl.com/hjg6

Here are some of your discussions about Leontien Zijlaard-Van Moorsel (whose name you *never* butcher)
http://tinyurl.com/hjfk

http://tinyurl.com/hjfr

http://tinyurl.com/hjfq

IIRC, it was also said that you had been inquiring on a speed skating newsgroup how to contact her, but Google doesn't bring up anything.

BTW, someone (not Henry) emailed me regarding an earlier time when I called you a stalker and said that your mpg videos 'were creepy'.

Carl
B. Johnston stalker

Cyrus

July 21st 03, 10:47 AM

Actually, last year we saw an attack on the yellow jersey on the
champs elysees. By Rumsas ("My mother (-in-law) does more dope than I
do") but he broke more rules than just some taditions, it seems.

Anyway, if the top three are still separated by less than 15 secs
before the last stage, I guess we will see some action. Flat stage or
not.

But if the difference is bigger (as usual) the GC contenteder will
prefer to say that they stick to the tradition, because it sounds a
lot nicer to say than "I don't have a chance to win"!

And now I have a completely different question for the cycling history
geeks:
What traditions and rules were introduced in the Tour that were later
used in almost every cyling race?

Some examples on top of my head:

- Was the Tour the first stage race? Or was it just the first national
tour?
- Leader's Jersey
- Special classifications: points, KOM, young, team, etc
- Special jerseys for the above
- Flamme rouge (?)
- 1km crash rule (?)
- The last stage tradition mentionned above
- Mountain top finishes (?)
- Live TV / TV motos / TV copters (?)
- ITTs ? TTTs ?
- doping controls?
- Trade Teams (??)
- Teams of 9
- the publicity caravan
- the prologue
- criterium-type circuit finish
- "neutral" mechanical support
- team cars
- feed zones
- Wildcards :-)
- ...

I have seen all the statistics in which year was the first ITT, the
first KOM jersey and such IN THE TOUR, but I am wondering if it was
the Tour that introduced all these things or did the tour organizers
copy also some stuff from other races?

TritonRider

July 21st 03, 12:51 PM

>From: "Kurgan Gringioni"

>AF = Air Force?

Yes.
Bill C

Bruce Johnston

July 21st 03, 04:50 PM

> "Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
> ...

Over the past year, I've called you a name butcher, long-winded, and a stalker. If you consider that constant, I can't help that.

<Not constant but why the sudden outburst now?

Unintentional or not, you can't deny the name butchering:

<No more then many who mispell a name or miss a letter. It's quite common and when you are distracted or in a hurry, it happens but rarely does anyone make a federal case out of it.

http://tinyurl.com/hjg6

Here are some of your discussions about Leontien Zijlaard-Van Moorsel (whose name you *never* butcher)
http://tinyurl.com/hjfk

http://tinyurl.com/hjfr

http://tinyurl.com/hjfq

IIRC, it was also said that you had been inquiring on a speed skating newsgroup how to contact her, but Google doesn't bring up anything.

<That's wrong or is someone else. I am not the only one with that name. Johnson is extremely common. Johnston is less common. I have never inquired into a speed skating newsgroup. Why would you want to seach for that stuff anyway?

BTW, someone (not Henry) emailed me regarding an earlier time when I called you a stalker and said that your mpg videos 'were creepy'.

<Not at all, everyone has an opinion. I put together a clip one time in a swf that was a slideshow project I did in Photoshop class. All it was were a bunch of LZ pics with some Enya music background. Nothing weird about it. They know me quite well at Farm Frites and they agreed to an interview here if they ever come to the US. I know a sports journalist who wants that interview. I sent them some videos from years ago of LZ at the games in Spain. They had never seen the coverage that was covered here in the US. They returned the favor by sending me some stuff.

Carl
B. Johnston stalker

Drop the stalker stuff Carl, it's getting old and it's charcater assassination on your part. I don't go around chanting that you are an old lame washed up Ex-Pro with a chip on his shoulders. Who said that? Nobody, and I don't like the insults either coming from you.

Chill a little...

Don't stir up trouble.

B-

Peter Allen

July 21st 03, 05:15 PM

(phantom) wrote in message >...

> > In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it would
> > be expected that any of the 3 would attack in order to become the final GC
> > winner. In other words, the expectation that Lance would launch an attack to
> > secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2 would
> > attack in order to defeat him. This expectation remains until one of the
> > riders is firmly established as the GC leader or the end of the race, which
> > ever comes first.
> >
> On a historical basis this begs the question, how will Lance Armstrong be seen,in years to come, for allowing the maillot jeune to tote water?

The young jersey? :-)

Probably the same way Virenque will be looked on for deliberately
losing time up the Alpe d'Huez in yellow. VHP never had a chance of
keeping the yellow jersey, he's a domestique who can't really climb,
his job includes fetching water. Virenque never had a chance of
keeping yellow either: he's not that good a climber, and can't TT. So
when he could see winning up the Alpe wasn't on, he made the (good)
tactical decision to lose time, so he could be safely allowed to break
away and win loads of mountains points in the later stages: result,
maillot pois.

Peter