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View Full Version : Liggett questions Ullrich's sportsmanship


Tony Ortega
July 21st 03, 07:27 PM
In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should
not have felt obliged to wait after Lance crashed on the climb up
Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident two years
ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent.
Rather than take advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German
to catch up.

But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it
happened at a less crucial time: "Two years ago, it was a great
gesture, but of little importance to the race – they were going
downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never
accelerate like Lance." (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)

I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour
should have outweighed his feelings of fair play. That's not very
sporting, is it, Phil?

Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.

That was some race this morning.

Tony Ortega
Phoenix, Arizona

Brian P
July 21st 03, 07:42 PM
I see your point, but in the heat of the moment, I bet it was a tough
decision.
Could be that had Jan known lance had the legs today, his decision might
have been
different. There is a fine line between sportsmanship and foolishness. Just
an observation.

"Tony Ortega" > wrote in message
om...
> In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should
> not have felt obliged to wait after Lance crashed on the climb up
> Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident two years
> ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent.
> Rather than take advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German
> to catch up.
>
> But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it
> happened at a less crucial time: "Two years ago, it was a great
> gesture, but of little importance to the race - they were going
> downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never
> accelerate like Lance." (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>
> I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour
> should have outweighed his feelings of fair play. That's not very
> sporting, is it, Phil?
>
> Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
> others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.
>
> That was some race this morning.
>
> Tony Ortega
> Phoenix, Arizona

Gary
July 21st 03, 07:48 PM
Seems to me there is special treatment for the leader of the race. Would
that have made the difference here?

Tony Ortega wrote:

>In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should
>not have felt obliged to wait after Lance crashed on the climb up
>Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident two years
>ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent.
>Rather than take advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German
>to catch up.
>
>But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it
>happened at a less crucial time: "Two years ago, it was a great
>gesture, but of little importance to the race – they were going
>downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never
>accelerate like Lance." (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>
>I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour
>should have outweighed his feelings of fair play. That's not very
>sporting, is it, Phil?
>
>Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
>others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.
>
>That was some race this morning.
>
>Tony Ortega
>Phoenix, Arizona
>
>

Joseph Cipale
July 21st 03, 07:51 PM
Tony Ortega wrote:
>
> In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should
> not have felt obliged to wait after Lance crashed on the climb up
> Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident two years
> ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent.
> Rather than take advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German
> to catch up.
>
> But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it
> happened at a less crucial time: "Two years ago, it was a great
> gesture, but of little importance to the race - they were going
> downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never
> accelerate like Lance." (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>
> I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour
> should have outweighed his feelings of fair play. That's not very
> sporting, is it, Phil?
>
> Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
> others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.
>
> That was some race this morning.
>
> Tony Ortega
> Phoenix, Arizona

Regardless of what the Ulrich/Lance bashers have to say, this has
been one HELL of a Centenary Tour! I can't wait to hear from a buddy
of mine who went over to watch the Mountain stages. I am also ordering
the DVD (extended play) the minute it is available.

To Lance, Jan, and Vino: Bravo! Well done lads!

Joe
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# Linux support and training. #
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Bird
July 21st 03, 07:52 PM
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:42:49 GMT, "Brian P"
> wrote:

>I see your point, but in the heat of the moment, I bet it was a tough
>decision.
>Could be that had Jan known lance had the legs today, his decision might
>have been
>different. There is a fine line between sportsmanship and foolishness. Just
>an observation.

Jan clearly hesistated, even before the gesture of Hamilton.

I think he very wel realized that he could not win this etappe, by
ignoring the unwritten law. Everybody knows Lance has a good memory,
he would never forgive this.

And everybody could see how motivated Lance was after this bad luck.
Can you imagine how he would have reacted if Jan didn't wait for him?
First, the gap between the two at the fnish would be doubled, at
least. Second, Lance would be flying, next saterday.




Groet,
Arne Vogel

Bob Wong
July 21st 03, 08:10 PM
I think Ullrich made a huge tactical error. He should have attacked. Sure
Lance waited for him 2 years ago. But I beleive Lance already have several
minutes on Jan at that time. I bet if the time difference was 15 seconds 2
years ago, Lance would have attacked after Jan spilled

I think Lance used his spill today the best he could. The group waited for
him, then he attacked the group minutes later. Tactically, he rode a great
race.


"Gary" > wrote in message
...
> Seems to me there is special treatment for the leader of the race. Would
> that have made the difference here?
>
> Tony Ortega wrote:
>
> >In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should
> >not have felt obliged to wait after Lance crashed on the climb up
> >Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident two years
> >ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent.
> >Rather than take advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German
> >to catch up.
> >
> >But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it
> >happened at a less crucial time: "Two years ago, it was a great
> >gesture, but of little importance to the race – they were going
> >downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never
> >accelerate like Lance." (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
> >
> >I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour
> >should have outweighed his feelings of fair play. That's not very
> >sporting, is it, Phil?
> >
> >Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
> >others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.
> >
> >That was some race this morning.
> >
> >Tony Ortega
> >Phoenix, Arizona
> >
> >
>

Raptor
July 21st 03, 08:43 PM
Tony Ortega wrote:
> In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should
> not have felt obliged to wait after Lance crashed on the climb up
> Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident two years
> ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent.
> Rather than take advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German
> to catch up.
>
> But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it
> happened at a less crucial time: "Two years ago, it was a great
> gesture, but of little importance to the race – they were going
> downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never
> accelerate like Lance." (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)


http://www.velonews.com/tour2003/details/articles/4620.1.html

As for Ullrich, he resigned himself to the day's loss. "It's only fair
that we waited for Armstrong," he said. "I don't think I lost any of my
rhythm. It was nice to catch my breath. Lance was the strongest today,
you have to give him credit. There's still a time trial left, so the
Tour is not over."

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

Boyd Speerschneider
July 21st 03, 09:04 PM
Joseph Cipale > wrote in :

<snip>

> of mine who went over to watch the Mountain stages. I am also ordering
> the DVD (extended play) the minute it is available.

Screw that!!!
Save your money and go see the IMAX instead.

- Boyd S.

Clovis Lark
July 21st 03, 09:19 PM
zeno > wrote:
> What you say is an assumption based on a fanciful scenario. The fact is
> that Armstrong did wait for Jan. Whatever else you might say about Jan,
> he has always struck me as an honorable fellow and would feel honor
> bound to return the gesture.

What was the incident they kept referring back to where Jan had a flat? It
seemed that they stressed this far more than the Ride into the "void".

> Plus, if Jan had not waited, his memory would still be excoriated long
> after his death.

> zeno

> Bob Wong wrote:
>> I think Ullrich made a huge tactical error. He should have attacked. Sure
>> Lance waited for him 2 years ago. But I beleive Lance already have several
>> minutes on Jan at that time. I bet if the time difference was 15 seconds 2
>> years ago, Lance would have attacked after Jan spilled
>>
>> I think Lance used his spill today the best he could. The group waited for
>> him, then he attacked the group minutes later. Tactically, he rode a great
>> race.
>>
>>
>> "Gary" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Seems to me there is special treatment for the leader of the race. Would
>>>that have made the difference here?
>>>
>>>Tony Ortega wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should
>>>>not have felt obliged to wait after Lance crashed on the climb up
>>>>Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident two years
>>>>ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent.
>>>>Rather than take advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German
>>>>to catch up.
>>>>
>>>>But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it
>>>>happened at a less crucial time: "Two years ago, it was a great
>>>>gesture, but of little importance to the race – they were going
>>>>downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never
>>>>accelerate like Lance." (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>>>>
>>>>I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour
>>>>should have outweighed his feelings of fair play. That's not very
>>>>sporting, is it, Phil?
>>>>
>>>>Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
>>>>others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.
>>>>
>>>>That was some race this morning.
>>>>
>>>>Tony Ortega
>>>>Phoenix, Arizona
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>

Daniel Connelly
July 21st 03, 09:26 PM
Obviously Ullrich would have been better off continuing. But he still
gained a benefit from slowing, he still gained recovery. If you've
ever climbed where you had to stop, you've experienced this. You stop
for, for example, 10 seconds to take a , well, never mind, then get
going again and you quickly close most of the gap, because of the rest.

I think w/o the crash, Armstrong would have won the stage anyway, by
either more or less or the same time, there's no way to say.

Dan

Raptor wrote:
> Tony Ortega wrote:
>
>> In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should
>> not have felt obliged to wait after Lance crashed on the climb up
>> Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident two years
>> ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent.
>> Rather than take advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German
>> to catch up.
>>
>> But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it
>> happened at a less crucial time: "Two years ago, it was a great
>> gesture, but of little importance to the race – they were going
>> downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never
>> accelerate like Lance." (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>
>
>
> http://www.velonews.com/tour2003/details/articles/4620.1.html
>
> As for Ullrich, he resigned himself to the day's loss. "It's only fair
> that we waited for Armstrong," he said. "I don't think I lost any of my
> rhythm. It was nice to catch my breath. Lance was the strongest today,
> you have to give him credit. There's still a time trial left, so the
> Tour is not over."
>

Kurgan Gringioni
July 21st 03, 09:56 PM
"Justin F. Knotzke" > wrote in message
...
>>
> On the other end of the sportsman spectrum we have those two
> Spaniards who did fsck all the entire climb only to sprint for the time
> bonus. And for WHAT!?! That time bonus means a world more to Ullrich
> then to either of those two punks.



That is exactly right.

If they were going for the win, the rationale could be there.

Sprinting for 2nd and taking something important away from someone who aided
you (and gaining very little for yourself) is just stupid and selfish.

It's not even good for the team sponsor.

Gerard Lanois
July 21st 03, 09:59 PM
Clovis Lark > writes:

> zeno > wrote:
> > What you say is an assumption based on a fanciful scenario. The fact is
> > that Armstrong did wait for Jan. Whatever else you might say about Jan,
> > he has always struck me as an honorable fellow and would feel honor
> > bound to return the gesture.
>
> What was the incident they kept referring back to where Jan had a flat? It
> seemed that they stressed this far more than the Ride into the "void".

Pantani waited for Ullrich once, during a mountain stage where they
were going mano-a-mano. Ullrich was the weaker of the two that day,
but Pantani waited for Ullrich to get a wheel change.

Anyway, that may be what they were referring to.

-Gerard

Clovis Lark
July 21st 03, 10:05 PM
Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:

> "Justin F. Knotzke" > wrote in message
> ...
>>>
>> On the other end of the sportsman spectrum we have those two
>> Spaniards who did fsck all the entire climb only to sprint for the time
>> bonus. And for WHAT!?! That time bonus means a world more to Ullrich
>> then to either of those two punks.



> That is exactly right.

> If they were going for the win, the rationale could be there.

> Sprinting for 2nd and taking something important away from someone who aided
> you (and gaining very little for yourself) is just stupid and selfish.

> It's not even good for the team sponsor.

Except that it is a Basque team, lots of Basque fans and probably very
good for the sponsor.

Robert Oliver
July 21st 03, 10:07 PM
"Bob Wong" > wrote in message
. ca...
> I think Lance used his spill today the best he could. The group waited
for
> him, then he attacked the group minutes later. Tactically, he rode a
great
> race.

The group waited, and then Mayo attacked the group. Lance then attacked Mayo
and left them all behind.

Arthur Ogus
July 21st 03, 10:14 PM
In article >, Steve Litvin
> wrote:


Since Jan was willing to wait for Lance today after
the crash, wouldn't he have been able to ask people to
wait for him when he had his unmentionable problem a couple
of days ago? Or is that unreasonable?

Nick Burns
July 21st 03, 10:56 PM
"Arthur Ogus" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Steve Litvin
> > wrote:
>
>
> Since Jan was willing to wait for Lance today after
> the crash, wouldn't he have been able to ask people to
> wait for him when he had his unmentionable problem a couple
> of days ago? Or is that unreasonable?

In theory, yes. Only If it was possible to get through to them. Remember at
that point there would have been at least 2 teams to contact. Maybe they
could not get a hold of everyone concerned, or they did not want to bother.

Marlene Blanshay
July 21st 03, 11:23 PM
In article >, "Steve Litvin"
> wrote:

> > But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it
> > happened at a less crucial time: "Two years ago, it was a great
> > gesture, but of little importance to the race - they were going
> > downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never
> > accelerate like Lance." (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>
> I agree with Phil...sort of. It wouldn't have been sporting for Jan to
> attach after the crash but in a strange way I think the crash may have been
> more detrimental to Jan then Lance. Why? As Phil mentioned Ullrich is a
> "rhythm" or "diesel" rider...he has to get the engine rolling and doesn't
> have Lances jump. Remember before the crash Lance attacked and Mayo and
> Ullrich covered it....Jan was rolling. After the crash Lance got a team
> mate back and he didn't have to chase too hard to get back to the group of
> GC leaders.....which he then sat on (with his team mate in the lead) and
> then attacked (as a counter to Mayo if I remember). Without the crash I
> think Jan would have sat on Lances wheel and there is a better chance they
> would have finished together. There still is a good chance Lance would have
> jumped again but I still think Jan got the "short end of the stick" out of
> the crash situation.
>
> Steve

You can't win. If Ullrich had attacked or taken off, he would have been
criticized for being a jerk!

Precious Pup
July 21st 03, 11:37 PM
"Justin F. Knotzke" wrote:
>

> At a MINIMUM they should have sat up
> for thanks for pulling their arses up that climb.


This Ullrich fellow must be mighty strong.

Steve Litvin
July 21st 03, 11:43 PM
> But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it
> happened at a less crucial time: "Two years ago, it was a great
> gesture, but of little importance to the race - they were going
> downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never
> accelerate like Lance." (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)

I agree with Phil...sort of. It wouldn't have been sporting for Jan to
attach after the crash but in a strange way I think the crash may have been
more detrimental to Jan then Lance. Why? As Phil mentioned Ullrich is a
"rhythm" or "diesel" rider...he has to get the engine rolling and doesn't
have Lances jump. Remember before the crash Lance attacked and Mayo and
Ullrich covered it....Jan was rolling. After the crash Lance got a team
mate back and he didn't have to chase too hard to get back to the group of
GC leaders.....which he then sat on (with his team mate in the lead) and
then attacked (as a counter to Mayo if I remember). Without the crash I
think Jan would have sat on Lances wheel and there is a better chance they
would have finished together. There still is a good chance Lance would have
jumped again but I still think Jan got the "short end of the stick" out of
the crash situation.

Steve

Keith
July 22nd 03, 12:10 AM
>I agree with Phil...sort of. It wouldn't have been sporting for Jan to
>attach after the crash but in a strange way I think the crash may have been
>more detrimental to Jan then Lance. Why? As Phil mentioned Ullrich is a
>"rhythm" or "diesel" rider...he has to get the engine rolling and doesn't
>have Lances jump. Remember before the crash Lance attacked and Mayo and
>Ullrich covered it....Jan was rolling.

My analysis exactly. Just before the crash Ullrich easily closed the
gap and looked nice and fresh. When Hamilton wavec, I immediatly
noticed Jan was all red and puffed. Very odd.

>After the crash Lance got a team
>mate back and he didn't have to chase too hard to get back to the group of
>GC leaders.....which he then sat on (with his team mate in the lead) and
>then attacked (as a counter to Mayo if I remember). Without the crash I
>think Jan would have sat on Lances wheel and there is a better chance they
>would have finished together.

Yup

> There still is a good chance Lance would have
>jumped again but I still think Jan got the "short end of the stick" out of
>the crash situation.
>
>Steve
>

Heinz Getzler
July 22nd 03, 12:42 AM
(Tony Ortega) wrote in message >...
> In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should
> not have felt obliged to wait after Lance crashed on the climb up
> Luz-Ardiden. Everyone, of course, remembers the incident two years
> ago, when Lance waited after Jan went off the road on a descent.
> Rather than take advantage of Jan's spill, Lance waited for the German
> to catch up.
>
> But Phil points out that that moment came on a descent, and that it
> happened at a less crucial time: "Two years ago, it was a great
> gesture, but of little importance to the race ? they were going
> downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never
> accelerate like Lance." (http://www.olntv.com/tdf03/liggett15.html)
>
> I guess Phil's suggesting that Jan's desire to win a second Tour
> should have outweighed his feelings of fair play. That's not very
> sporting, is it, Phil?
>
> Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
> others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.

Given how close the race is I don't think that Jan should have waited
for Lance. What Jan should have done is to continue at his present
pace and or let the pack determine the pace.
>
> That was some race this morning.
>
> Tony Ortega
> Phoenix, Arizona

Drew Saunders
July 22nd 03, 12:45 AM
In article >,
"Nick Burns" > wrote:

> "Joseph Cipale" > wrote in message
>
> <snip>
> I am also ordering
> > the DVD (extended play) the minute it is available.
>
> **** yeah!
>
>

Pre-order now, $90 but probably worth it. URL From hell:
<http://www.worldcycling.com/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WCP&Produ
ct_Code=TDFD03X&Category_Code=TDFGEAR>

or, go to <http://www.worldcycling.com/> and do a product search on
TDFD03X


Drew

--
Drew W. Saunders

dru (at) stanford (dot) eee dee you

Ed Hill
July 22nd 03, 12:47 AM
> Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
> others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.

At the time, I thought it was funny seeing little wounded Tyler waving
his one useful wing after Jan had clearly slowed down. Tyler would have
never had the chance to get to the front if Jan had not slowed in the
first place since Tyler was barely hanging on to the back of the train
at the time.

But it was annoying to read this quote from Tyler: "...after Lance
crashed, the other guys kept on going, but it's an unwritten rule
that if the Maillot Jaune crashes, you give him a chance to get back. I
didn't feel like other guys were waiting, so it was MY RESPONSIBILITY to
go up front and tell them to slow down and wait a few seconds."
(http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=results/stage15)

Gag me with a spoon! I think Tyler is getting a little delirious from
the combination of weigh loss and pain killers. Jan has already been
screwed out of 2nd after pulling Mayo's sorry ass up the last two cols
and now Tyler is acting like a pompous little jerk by not recognizing
Jan's sportsmanship.

Ed

Keith
July 22nd 03, 01:25 AM
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:47:31 -0400, Ed Hill
> wrote:

>> Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
>> others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.
>
>At the time, I thought it was funny seeing little wounded Tyler waving
>his one useful wing after Jan had clearly slowed down. Tyler would have
>never had the chance to get to the front if Jan had not slowed in the
>first place since Tyler was barely hanging on to the back of the train
>at the time.
>
>But it was annoying to read this quote from Tyler: "...after Lance
>crashed, the other guys kept on going, but it's an unwritten rule
>that if the Maillot Jaune crashes, you give him a chance to get back. I
>didn't feel like other guys were waiting, so it was MY RESPONSIBILITY to
>go up front and tell them to slow down and wait a few seconds."
>(http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=results/stage15)
>
>Gag me with a spoon! I think Tyler is getting a little delirious from
>the combination of weigh loss and pain killers.

Yeah shoot the dwarf

> Jan has already been
>screwed out of 2nd after pulling Mayo's sorry ass up the last two cols
>and now Tyler is acting like a pompous little jerk by not recognizing
>Jan's sportsmanship.
>
>Ed
>

Brian Phillips
July 22nd 03, 01:51 AM
"Just a Cyclist" > wrote
>
> Yes another whinner.................

If you're trying to spell WINNER, it's W-I-N-N-E-R.
If you're trying to spell WHINER, it's W-H-I-N-E-R.

At any rate, I think it's interesting when someone who's never competed at
that level criticizes someone like Tyler, who's riding extremely strong,
regardless of his broken collarbone.... Walk a mile in his shoes.

jason
July 22nd 03, 01:59 AM
I was wondering about Armstrong's sportsmanship. How long did he wait
before attacking the group that waited?

Jason

(Tony Ortega) wrote in message
> In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should
> not have felt obliged to wait after Lance crashed on the climb up
> Luz-Ardiden.
snip
> That was some race this morning.
>
> Tony Ortega
> Phoenix, Arizona

Robert Oliver
July 22nd 03, 02:14 AM
"jason" > wrote in message
om...
> I was wondering about Armstrong's sportsmanship. How long did he wait
> before attacking the group that waited?

Approximately 1 minute after Lance rolled up behind Ullrich an attack was
launched, but it was not Lance that initiated it, it was Mayo. Lance
responded and left everyone behind.

Nick Burns
July 22nd 03, 02:30 AM
"Ed Hill" > wrote in message
...
> > Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
> > others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.
>
> At the time, I thought it was funny seeing little wounded Tyler waving
> his one useful wing after Jan had clearly slowed down. Tyler would have
> never had the chance to get to the front if Jan had not slowed in the
> first place since Tyler was barely hanging on to the back of the train
> at the time.
>
> But it was annoying to read this quote from Tyler: "...after Lance
> crashed, the other guys kept on going, but it's an unwritten rule
> that if the Maillot Jaune crashes, you give him a chance to get back. I
> didn't feel like other guys were waiting, so it was MY RESPONSIBILITY to
> go up front and tell them to slow down and wait a few seconds."
> (http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=results/stage15)
>
> Gag me with a spoon! I think Tyler is getting a little delirious from
> the combination of weigh loss and pain killers.

"painkillers"? Right. Have you ever snorted Tylenol? It really goes to your
head man.


Jan has already been
> screwed out of 2nd after pulling Mayo's sorry ass up the last two cols
> and now Tyler is acting like a pompous little jerk by not recognizing
> Jan's sportsmanship.
>
> Ed
>
>

Arthur Ogus
July 22nd 03, 03:22 AM
In article >, Ed Hill
> wrote:

> > Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
> > others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.
>
> At the time, I thought it was funny seeing little wounded Tyler waving
> his one useful wing after Jan had clearly slowed down. Tyler would have
> never had the chance to get to the front if Jan had not slowed in the
> first place since Tyler was barely hanging on to the back of the train
> at the time.
>
> But it was annoying to read this quote from Tyler: "...after Lance
> crashed, the other guys kept on going, but it's an unwritten rule
> that if the Maillot Jaune crashes, you give him a chance to get back. I
> didn't feel like other guys were waiting, so it was MY RESPONSIBILITY to
> go up front and tell them to slow down and wait a few seconds."
> (http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=results/stage15)
>
> Gag me with a spoon! I think Tyler is getting a little delirious from
> the combination of weigh loss and pain killers. Jan has already been
> screwed out of 2nd after pulling Mayo's sorry ass up the last two cols
> and now Tyler is acting like a pompous little jerk by not recognizing
> Jan's sportsmanship.
>

I think Ligget and/or Sherwin said something about Hamitlon speaking
to the guys at the front.
> Ed
>
>

Just a Cyclist
July 22nd 03, 04:22 AM
"Brian Phillips" > wrote in message
rthlink.net...
>
> "Just a Cyclist" > wrote
> >
> > Yes another whinner.................
>
> If you're trying to spell WINNER, it's W-I-N-N-E-R.
> If you're trying to spell WHINER, it's W-H-I-N-E-R.
>
> At any rate, I think it's interesting when someone who's never competed at
> that level criticizes someone like Tyler, who's riding extremely strong,
> regardless of his broken collarbone.... Walk a mile in his shoes.

I agree walk a mile in his shoes....... and thanks oh great english teacher
of the net......... "whiner"
>
>

Just a Cyclist
July 22nd 03, 04:26 AM
"jason" > wrote in message
om...
> I was wondering about Armstrong's sportsmanship. How long did he wait
> before attacking the group that waited?

He didn't attack.........Mayo did and Lance covered it.........then slammed
Mayo!
>
> Jason
>
> (Tony Ortega) wrote in message
> > In his daily diary entry today, Phil Liggett suggested that Jan should
> > not have felt obliged to wait after Lance crashed on the climb up
> > Luz-Ardiden.
> snip
> > That was some race this morning.
> >
> > Tony Ortega
> > Phoenix, Arizona

Clovis Lark
July 22nd 03, 04:52 AM
Gerard Lanois > wrote:
> Clovis Lark > writes:

>> zeno > wrote:
>> > What you say is an assumption based on a fanciful scenario. The fact is
>> > that Armstrong did wait for Jan. Whatever else you might say about Jan,
>> > he has always struck me as an honorable fellow and would feel honor
>> > bound to return the gesture.
>>
>> What was the incident they kept referring back to where Jan had a flat? It
>> seemed that they stressed this far more than the Ride into the "void".

> Pantani waited for Ullrich once, during a mountain stage where they
> were going mano-a-mano. Ullrich was the weaker of the two that day,
> but Pantani waited for Ullrich to get a wheel change.

> Anyway, that may be what they were referring to.

Hence, perhaps we see a rebuttal to the anti-Pantani blather...

> -Gerard

Shrek
July 22nd 03, 07:59 AM
I like to walk a mile in Tyler's wife's shoes. Did you catch her interview
during the horrible CBS telecast on Sunday? Haven is some cutie...


"Brian Phillips" > wrote:

>
>"Just a Cyclist" > wrote
>>
>> Yes another whinner.................
>
>If you're trying to spell WINNER, it's W-I-N-N-E-R.
>If you're trying to spell WHINER, it's W-H-I-N-E-R.
>
>At any rate, I think it's interesting when someone who's never competed at
>that level criticizes someone like Tyler, who's riding extremely strong,
>regardless of his broken collarbone.... Walk a mile in his shoes.
>

Kurgan Gringioni
July 22nd 03, 08:20 AM
"Steve D" > wrote in message
...
>
> Amen-those 2 wheelsucking dicks did nothing the entire chase...Is Mayo
> that hard up for 4th on GC?



4th place is his teamate (the other wheelsucking dick).

Another reason his behavior wasn't wise, in the long run.

Kurgan Gringioni
July 22nd 03, 08:29 AM
"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message . ..
>
> "Steve D" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Amen-those 2 wheelsucking dicks did nothing the entire chase...Is Mayo
> > that hard up for 4th on GC?
>
>
>
> 4th place is his teamate (the other wheelsucking dick).




I take that back - Zubeldia was just a wheelsucker, not a wheelsucking dick.

Vern Faulkner
July 22nd 03, 09:23 AM
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:52:56 +0200, Bird > wrote:

>I think he very wel realized that he could not win this etappe, by
>ignoring the unwritten law. Everybody knows Lance has a good memory,
>he would never forgive this.

Or anyone else. Ullrich would have had to watch like a hawk for the
rest of the tour, keeping an eye peeled for some domestique
"accidenty" flicking him.

Robert Lange
July 22nd 03, 10:54 AM
schrieb:

> Only Lance lost because of the crash. Mentally it was bad,
> rhythmically it was bad for Lance.

No, Lance said he even got a boost from that crash, kind of "Now all
the more!".

Robert Lange
July 22nd 03, 10:54 AM
Clovis Lark schrieb:

> Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:

>> It's not even good for the team sponsor.
>
> Except that it is a Basque team, lots of Basque fans and probably very
> good for the sponsor.

Sponsors want popularity. Mayo didn't improve his popularity,
probably not even with the Basque fans.

Robert Lange
July 22nd 03, 10:54 AM
Keith wrote:

> Just before the crash Ullrich easily closed the gap

Yes. At the time of Armstrong's crash Ullrich was so close behind he
almost crashed too.

Anthony G Gough
July 22nd 03, 01:31 PM
I can not give you names, but some of the riders that were behind Lance,
Mayo, and Ulrich before the crashed rode on. They had caught Ulrich and not
slowed.... I think if you watch the video you will see that Hamilton is not
trying to slow Ulrich, but the others in the group.

Tony (wishing I could do half of what Hamilton is doing with my injuried
shoulder)
"Shrek" > wrote in message
...
> Shows how little you know about bicycle racing. What Mayo did (wheel
sucking)
> is a perfect normal tactic. Examples of this are in 1990 when Indurain
sucked
> Lemonds wheel during the same stage. Lemond clearly could of used the
time
> bonus since he was still chasing El Diablo in the GC.
>
> Maybe Ullrich had slowed down, but what about the others like Mayo?
>
>
>
> Ed Hill > wrote:
>
> >> Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
> >> others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.
> >
> >At the time, I thought it was funny seeing little wounded Tyler waving
> >his one useful wing after Jan had clearly slowed down. Tyler would have
> >never had the chance to get to the front if Jan had not slowed in the
> >first place since Tyler was barely hanging on to the back of the train
> >at the time.
> >
> >But it was annoying to read this quote from Tyler: "...after Lance
> >crashed, the other guys kept on going, but it's an unwritten rule
> >that if the Maillot Jaune crashes, you give him a chance to get back. I
> >didn't feel like other guys were waiting, so it was MY RESPONSIBILITY to
> >go up front and tell them to slow down and wait a few seconds."
> >(http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=results/stage15)
> >
> >Gag me with a spoon! I think Tyler is getting a little delirious from
> >the combination of weigh loss and pain killers. Jan has already been
> >screwed out of 2nd after pulling Mayo's sorry ass up the last two cols
> >and now Tyler is acting like a pompous little jerk by not recognizing
> >Jan's sportsmanship.
> >
> >Ed
> >
>

Joanne Corsano
July 22nd 03, 01:52 PM
>I think Ullrich made a huge tactical error. He should have attacked. Sure
>Lance waited for him 2 years ago. But I beleive Lance already have several
>minutes on Jan at that time. I bet if the time difference was 15 seconds 2
>years ago, Lance would have attacked after Jan spilled

In my opinion this is an extremely important point. I somehow can't
see Lance (with his killer instinct) waiting for a competitor if only
15 seconds separated them on GC. He might not attack, but I can't see
that he would slow down and wait for the guy. Does anyone here
remember (or know how to look up) how far ahead Lance was at the time
he waited for Ullrich in the 2001 tour? (And wasn't this the incident
when Jan went off the road? The flat-tire thing was something else.)

Joanne

Carl Sundquist
July 22nd 03, 02:03 PM
"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message news:aB5Ta.8457
> > Amen-those 2 wheelsucking dicks did nothing the entire chase...Is Mayo
> > that hard up for 4th on GC?
>
>
>
> 4th place is his teamate (the other wheelsucking dick).
>
> Another reason his behavior wasn't wise, in the long run.
>
>

In the long run, it doesn't seem to have hurt Bruyneel after he sat on
Indurain for about 150 km (slight exaggeration), then pipped him at the
line.

Max Watt
July 22nd 03, 02:17 PM
Steve D > wrote in message >...

> > On the other end of the sportsman spectrum we have those two
> >Spaniards who did fsck all the entire climb only to sprint for the time
> >bonus. And for WHAT!?! That time bonus means a world more to Ullrich
> >then to either of those two punks. At a MINIMUM they should have sat up
> >for thanks for pulling their arses up that climb.
> >
> > I _had_ respect for Mayo until today. I hope both of them go down in
> >a ball of flames on Saturday. Jack asses.
> >
> > J
> Amen-those 2 wheelsucking dicks did nothing the entire chase...Is Mayo
> that hard up for 4th on GC?

Blame their Directeur Sportif.

Donald Munro
July 22nd 03, 04:26 PM
Ed Hill wrote:
> > Gag me with a spoon! I think Tyler is getting a little delirious from
> > the combination of weigh loss and pain killers.

Nick Burns wrote:
> "painkillers"? Right. Have you ever snorted Tylenol? It really goes to your
> head man.

Rumour has it that the new generic equivalent Tylernol is much more
effective although it has not yet been tested for hallucogenic side
effects.

Clovis Lark
July 22nd 03, 05:33 PM
warren > wrote:
> In article >, Clovis Lark
> > wrote:

>> Robert Lange > wrote:
>> > Clovis Lark schrieb:
>>
>> >> Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
>>
>> >>> It's not even good for the team sponsor.
>> >>
>> >> Except that it is a Basque team, lots of Basque fans and probably very
>> >> good for the sponsor.
>>
>> > Sponsors want popularity. Mayo didn't improve his popularity,
>> > probably not even with the Basque fans.
>>
>> Documentation?

> He didn't lead, didn't show he was stronger during the whole climb. He
> was merely a follower and took a cheap placing. I doubt the Basque
> fans admire his second place more than the 3rd place he deserved.

Documentation?

> -WG

Kurgan Gringioni
July 22nd 03, 06:02 PM
"Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
> message news:aB5Ta.8457
> > > Amen-those 2 wheelsucking dicks did nothing the entire chase...Is Mayo
> > > that hard up for 4th on GC?
> >
> >
> >
> > 4th place is his teamate (the other wheelsucking dick).
> >
> > Another reason his behavior wasn't wise, in the long run.
> >
> >
>
> In the long run, it doesn't seem to have hurt Bruyneel after he sat on
> Indurain for about 150 km (slight exaggeration), then pipped him at the
> line.



True.

That was more excusable - that was for first place (wheelsucker actually
gains something).

Gerrit Stolte
July 22nd 03, 06:13 PM
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:33:57 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
> wrote:

>warren > wrote:
>> In article >, Clovis Lark
>> > wrote:
>
>>> Robert Lange > wrote:
>>> > Clovis Lark schrieb:
>>>
>>> >> Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
>>>
>>> >>> It's not even good for the team sponsor.
>>> >>
>>> >> Except that it is a Basque team, lots of Basque fans and probably very
>>> >> good for the sponsor.
>>>
>>> > Sponsors want popularity. Mayo didn't improve his popularity,
>>> > probably not even with the Basque fans.
>>>
>>> Documentation?
>
>> He didn't lead, didn't show he was stronger during the whole climb. He
>> was merely a follower and took a cheap placing. I doubt the Basque
>> fans admire his second place more than the 3rd place he deserved.
>
>Documentation?

Common sense? Sportsmanship? Fairness? Nobility? Maybe not honorable
virtues in your circles, but quite common in quite a few parts of the
basque region.

Robert Chung
July 22nd 03, 06:41 PM
"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message t...
>
> "Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > In the long run, it doesn't seem to have hurt Bruyneel after he sat on
> > Indurain for about 150 km (slight exaggeration), then pipped him at the
> > line.
>
>
>
> True.
>
> That was more excusable - that was for first place (wheelsucker actually
> gains something).

My recollection was that it was a tad more complicated than that. Bruyneel
latched onto Indurain's wheel, true, but he was hoping the peloton would
recapture them so that Jalabert would take yellow into the next day's time
trial. If that wasn't possible, Bruyneel's job was to sprint past Indurain,
deny him the bonus seconds and (as a secondary issue) take yellow himself.
My recollection is also that Bruyneel pulled up alongside Indurain sometime
during that final 20 km and explained (or perhaps apologized for???) all of
this.

enoch
July 22nd 03, 07:41 PM
FWIW,

here's a rough translation of what Jan had said about that in an
interview when asked if he thought that the crash had any influence on
the result of the stage:

"At first I was shocked, and of course I waited. Fairness first, even
if it's about the tour victory. But when then the attack followed, I
was mentally blocked for around 2 kilometers. After that I found my
rythm again."

I hope I got the "sound" of it right, let me assure you that the
original doesn't sound apologetic or whining at all.

He also stated again that he's completely surprised that he's so close
to the yellow jersey, but now intends to fight hard and try to get any
seconds he can from LA.

If there's no breakaway tomorrow (doubtful), maybe JU wants to go for
the two sprints after the last mountain to gain some seconds -
although I don't know if there are time bonuses to get there.

Alex Rodriguez
July 22nd 03, 08:29 PM
In article >, says...
>
>
>> Seems to me I also noticed Tyler Hamilton yelling at Jan and the
>> others to make sure everyone held up for Lance to get back.
>
>At the time, I thought it was funny seeing little wounded Tyler waving
>his one useful wing after Jan had clearly slowed down. Tyler would have
>never had the chance to get to the front if Jan had not slowed in the
>first place since Tyler was barely hanging on to the back of the train
>at the time.

He was waving at Basso, IIRC.

>But it was annoying to read this quote from Tyler: "...after Lance
>crashed, the other guys kept on going, but it's an unwritten rule
>that if the Maillot Jaune crashes, you give him a chance to get back. I
>didn't feel like other guys were waiting, so it was MY RESPONSIBILITY to
>go up front and tell them to slow down and wait a few seconds."
>(http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=results/stage15)
>
>Gag me with a spoon! I think Tyler is getting a little delirious from
>the combination of weigh loss and pain killers. Jan has already been
>screwed out of 2nd after pulling Mayo's sorry ass up the last two cols
>and now Tyler is acting like a pompous little jerk by not recognizing
>Jan's sportsmanship.

My guess is he only saw Basso trying to go and did not notice the guys
behind were waiting.
-----------------
Alex __O
_-\<,_
(_)/ (_)

warren
July 22nd 03, 11:40 PM
In article >, enoch
> wrote:

> FWIW,
>
> here's a rough translation of what Jan had said about that in an
> interview when asked if he thought that the crash had any influence on
> the result of the stage:
>
> "At first I was shocked, and of course I waited. Fairness first, even
> if it's about the tour victory. But when then the attack followed, I
> was mentally blocked for around 2 kilometers. After that I found my
> rythm again."
>
> I hope I got the "sound" of it right, let me assure you that the
> original doesn't sound apologetic or whining at all.

Jan may get second place in the Tour but the guy really is a winner. I
hope he's a hero in Germany.

-WG

Marlene Blanshay
July 22nd 03, 11:52 PM
In article >, warren > wrote:

> In article >, enoch
> > wrote:
>
> > FWIW,
> >
> > here's a rough translation of what Jan had said about that in an
> > interview when asked if he thought that the crash had any influence on
> > the result of the stage:
> >
> > "At first I was shocked, and of course I waited. Fairness first, even
> > if it's about the tour victory. But when then the attack followed, I
> > was mentally blocked for around 2 kilometers. After that I found my
> > rythm again."
> >
> > I hope I got the "sound" of it right, let me assure you that the
> > original doesn't sound apologetic or whining at all.
>
> Jan may get second place in the Tour but the guy really is a winner. I
> hope he's a hero in Germany.
>
> -WG

It sounds like his fans still love him, just like Pantani's fans. I
remember watching the Giro zoncolan stage and the fans were just cheering
Pantani on, screaming their heads off, pounding him on the back, they were
just so thrilled to see him showing his old form in the mountains. It
seems fans are extrememly devoted to these guys.

Also, I was recently talking to a german guy in town visiting friends. He
said cycling has really exploded and taken off since Jan Ullrich began his
career, especially since 1997. More clubs, teams,races, etc, although
soccer and F1 are still the biggest sports. There is no doubt that even if
he has disappointed his fans by not doing what they thought he could do,
he is not just a hero but has had a huge,positive influence.

Nick Burns
July 23rd 03, 12:56 AM
"Java Man (Espressopithecus)" > wrote in message
ble.net...
> In article . com>,
> says...
> > >I think Ullrich made a huge tactical error. He should have attacked.
Sure
> > >Lance waited for him 2 years ago. But I beleive Lance already have
several
> > >minutes on Jan at that time. I bet if the time difference was 15
seconds 2
> > >years ago, Lance would have attacked after Jan spilled
> >
> > Does anyone here
> > remember (or know how to look up) how far ahead Lance was at the time
> > he waited for Ullrich in the 2001 tour? (And wasn't this the incident
> > when Jan went off the road? The flat-tire thing was something else.)
> >
> I don't know how much LA was ahead, but yes, it was the incident when JU
> went off the road.
>
> Rick


Between 3 and 5 minutes. They were in the last series of mountain stages if
not the last stage (or maybe even the last, but I think second to last).

TritonRider
July 23rd 03, 12:58 AM
>From: (Marlene Blanshay)

>It sounds like his fans still love him, just like Pantani's fans. I
>remember watching the Giro zoncolan stage and the fans were just cheering
>Pantani on, screaming their heads off, pounding him on the back, they were
>just so thrilled to see him showing his old form in the mountains. It
>seems fans are extrememly devoted to these guys.


You can compare fans, you can't compare Jan's escapades to Elafantina. No one
has ever had reason to question Jan's integrity or sportsmanship. His mistakes
have been on a personal level. He has way too much respect for the sport to
cheat the way Elefantina did.
Bring on the " You are so gullible!" comments but I don't believe that Lance
dopes either.
Bill C

Nick Burns
July 23rd 03, 12:59 AM
"Donald Munro" > wrote in message
m...
> Ed Hill wrote:
> > > Gag me with a spoon! I think Tyler is getting a little delirious from
> > > the combination of weigh loss and pain killers.
>
> Nick Burns wrote:
> > "painkillers"? Right. Have you ever snorted Tylenol? It really goes to
your
> > head man.
>
> Rumour has it that the new generic equivalent Tylernol is much more
> effective although it has not yet been tested for hallucogenic side
> effects.

Yeah, really. I just HATE the misnomer "pain killers" since anyone that has
not ever had serious pain seems to think that medicine can *always* take
away pain, right?

Then again, I try to cut people slack since even a lot of MDs are
misinformed about pain.

Jamce1
July 23rd 03, 01:18 AM
i dont think there were time bonuses for mountain stages in 89.

chris

>Subject: Re: Tyler's Grandstanding
>From: Shrek
>Date: 7/21/03 11:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Shows how little you know about bicycle racing. What Mayo did (wheel
>sucking)
>is a perfect normal tactic. Examples of this are in 1990 when Indurain
>sucked
>Lemonds wheel during the same stage. Lemond clearly could of used the time
>bonus since he was still chasing El Diablo in the GC.

Kurgan Gringioni
July 23rd 03, 01:27 AM
"TritonRider" > wrote in message
...
> >From: (Marlene Blanshay)
>
> >It sounds like his fans still love him, just like Pantani's fans. I
> >remember watching the Giro zoncolan stage and the fans were just cheering
> >Pantani on, screaming their heads off, pounding him on the back, they
were
> >just so thrilled to see him showing his old form in the mountains. It
> >seems fans are extrememly devoted to these guys.
>
>
> You can compare fans, you can't compare Jan's escapades to Elafantina. No
one
> has ever had reason to question Jan's integrity or sportsmanship. His
mistakes
> have been on a personal level. He has way too much respect for the sport
to
> cheat the way Elefantina did.
> Bring on the " You are so gullible!" comments but I don't believe that
Lance
> dopes either.



I'm not going to get into speculation about doping, however, a big
difference between Jan and La Elefantina is that Jan takes responsibility
for his ****ups.

He's always been a stand-up guy. La Elefantina blames everyone else for what
happens.


Ullrich seems like he would make a good friend. La Elefantina seems like he
would be a big pain in the ass.

warren
July 23rd 03, 05:34 AM
In article >, Kurgan
Gringioni > wrote:

> "TritonRider" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >From: (Marlene Blanshay)
> >
> > >It sounds like his fans still love him, just like Pantani's fans. I
> > >remember watching the Giro zoncolan stage and the fans were just cheering
> > >Pantani on, screaming their heads off, pounding him on the back, they
> were
> > >just so thrilled to see him showing his old form in the mountains. It
> > >seems fans are extrememly devoted to these guys.
> >
> >
> > You can compare fans, you can't compare Jan's escapades to Elafantina. No
> one
> > has ever had reason to question Jan's integrity or sportsmanship. His
> mistakes
> > have been on a personal level. He has way too much respect for the sport
> to
> > cheat the way Elefantina did.
> > Bring on the " You are so gullible!" comments but I don't believe that
> Lance
> > dopes either.
>
>
>
> I'm not going to get into speculation about doping, however, a big
> difference between Jan and La Elefantina is that Jan takes responsibility
> for his ****ups.
>
> He's always been a stand-up guy. La Elefantina blames everyone else for what
> happens.
>
>
> Ullrich seems like he would make a good friend. La Elefantina seems like he
> would be a big pain in the ass.

Yes. It's kind of hard to understand how a whiner and cheat like
Pantani still managed to do a lot of hard work to do as well as he did.
He seems to have alot of desire but is quick to blame others, which is
unlike what we usually see from people near the top of their
(endurance) sport.

-WG

Willowbeauty
July 23rd 03, 09:52 AM
"Christophe Kotowski" > wrote in message
om...
> Clovis Lark > wrote in message
>...
> > Al > wrote:
> > > In article >,
> > > says...
> > >> Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > "Justin F. Knotzke" > wrote in message
> > >> > ...
> > >> >>>
> > >> >> On the other end of the sportsman spectrum we have those two
> > >> >> Spaniards who did fsck all the entire climb only to sprint for the
time
> > >> >> bonus. And for WHAT!?! That time bonus means a world more to
Ullrich
> > >> >> then to either of those two punks.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > That is exactly right.
> >
> > >> > If they were going for the win, the rationale could be there.
> >
> > >> > Sprinting for 2nd and taking something important away from someone
who aided
> > >> > you (and gaining very little for yourself) is just stupid and
selfish.
> >
> > >> > It's not even good for the team sponsor.
> > >>
> > >> Except that it is a Basque team, lots of Basque fans and probably
very
> > >> good for the sponsor.
> > >>
> > >>
> > > Documentation?
> >
> >
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?id=road/2003/tour03/features/euskaltel
> >
> > Sponsorship is public subscription by basques and from the provincial
> > government. So going at it with maximum affort IS good for the
> > sponsors. From the site:
> >
> > "Euskaltel-Euskadi is a rare animal in the modern world of professional
> > sport. Firstly, it is a team that is "owned" by a club or foundation,
> > insofar as it has members or "socios" who pay to join the club. It's got
> > more in common with your local cycling, cricket or football club than it
> > does the mega-businesses of U.S. Postal or the Mapei of old.
> >
> > "In the first place the team is funded through membership subscriptions,
> > anyone can go to the Txirrindularitza Iraskundea - Fundacion Euskadi
> > website, pay their 100 euros and sign up as a socio. Secondly,
> > Euskaltel-Euskadi is without doubt, openly and proudly a national team,
> > even with the odd immigrant in their midst [Samuel Sanchez, who was born
> > in Asturias but grew up in the Basque Country] and Unai Etxebarria [born
> > in Venezuela of Basque heritage, has lived in Durango most of his life
> > and reportedly only holds a Venezuelan licence because he doesn't want a
> > Spanish one!].
> >
> > "In this respect, Euskaltel-Euskadi is indeed the odd team out in the
> > world of globalised commerce. Indeed Euskaltel-Euskadi was created by
> > Manager and President Miguel Madariaga with the idea in mind to help
> > project Basque values in the face of the negative press the country
> > (that's "country" with a small "c" for the sensitive) receives often at
> > the hand of the Spanish press and government. The drama over the use of
> > the Basque language, Euskera, in next week's stage to Bayonne is just
the
> > tip of an iceberg."
>
> You live in a strange world. Those two guys (both of them tried to
> outsprint Jan, only Mayo succeeded) acted like a**holes. Result:
> people see Euskatel as a bunch of a**holes. A little further, they
> associate the basques people and the basque country with Euskatel. Or
> to put it simply, here is the association this "brilliant" PR stunt
> gave the world:
>
> Mayo = a**hole
> Mayo = Euskatel = a**holes
> Mayo = Euskatel = basque country = a**holes
>
> "Probably very good for the sponsor" in your words. Well, no. In the
> world of sports, winning whatever the price is not everything.

Thankyou for another diatribe, maybe you should spend 5mins in the Basque
region and see how happy they were to have 2 riders up the front on a tough
stage. For years we have had 'climbers teams' from the Basques/Colombians
(such as Kelme etc). that have not provided any results when the going gets
tough- we have 2 E-E riders high up the GC and the locals have every right
to be happy and celebrating- you obviously have no understanding of their
culture, so probably best you don't spout off on things your most obviously
don't understand.

Donald Munro
July 23rd 03, 04:39 PM
Nick Burns wrote:
> Yeah, really. I just HATE the misnomer "pain killers" since anyone that has
> not ever had serious pain seems to think that medicine can *always* take
> away pain, right?
>
> Then again, I try to cut people slack since even a lot of MDs are
> misinformed about pain.

And they often have side effects as well. I recently had an operation
to put a pin in a broken collar bone and the pain killer they injected
me with after the operation (without asking me if I wanted it) caused
me to have to stay overnight at the hospital instead of going home on
the same day as it messed up my blood pressure or something. Must be
becaue my bodies not used to all these narcotic chemicals as I don't
drink (alcohol) either.

And I couldn't persuade any of the nurses to practise their pubic
shaving skills on me either.

Nick Burns
July 24th 03, 02:11 AM
"Donald Munro" > wrote in message
m...
> Nick Burns wrote:
> > Yeah, really. I just HATE the misnomer "pain killers" since anyone that
has
> > not ever had serious pain seems to think that medicine can *always* take
> > away pain, right?
> >
> > Then again, I try to cut people slack since even a lot of MDs are
> > misinformed about pain.
>
> And they often have side effects as well. I recently had an operation
> to put a pin in a broken collar bone and the pain killer they injected
> me with after the operation (without asking me if I wanted it) caused
> me to have to stay overnight at the hospital instead of going home on
> the same day as it messed up my blood pressure or something. Must be
> becaue my bodies not used to all these narcotic chemicals as I don't

There is a very good chance you would have been sorry if they had not done
that. I don't know if they debriefed you but sometimes there are indications
in the operating room that you may wake up with very high levels of pain.
The anesthesiologists are typically the best educated with regard to pain
and the medicines and was likely the one that resommended it, probably based
on the medicines he had to give you will you were in surgery. The medicine
used to keep you asleep was also an opiate (narcotic, but I try not to use
that word since it has been used by law enforcement with negative
connotations and is also used to cover a wider scope of drugs) coctail so it
is not as if you would have gotten out of there without any opoid medicine
in your body.


> drink (alcohol) either.
>
> And I couldn't persuade any of the nurses to practise their pubic
> shaving skills on me either.

It can get boring in there, eh? You were lucky since a lot of times they
don't even use shaving cream. The lucky ones are asked if they want to do it
themselves.

Al
July 24th 03, 10:01 PM
In article >,
says...
> I know many basques, and they are extremely decent folks, hospitable and
> full of integrity. I think that this discussion is based upon an insane
> number of assumptions. I still haven't seen anything to suggest that Mayo
> and Zubeldia did anything outrageous. Mayo attacked just before Armstrong
> went down. He bridged back to the group, rode with them at pace before
> attacking again. Armstrong's counter blew him to pieces. Anyone
> following the subsequent chase would agree that everyone in the group was
> then hammering at 100% capability. The idea of wheel sucking seems a wee
> bit extreme. If there was any concern about bonus seconds, I'm sure that
> Mayo and Zubeldia were not trying to deny Ullrich anything. I think they
> were simply trying as hard as they could for the locals and for the team.
> While comradery and nobility are supremely desirable characteristics,
> slavish observation of them would be the demise of any competition.
> Think of it. Should the attack up Alpe d'Huez have been tempered to give
> Hamilton a fairer chance, given that his collar bone was affecting the
> high end of his climbing speed? Should all have stopped for Beloki? If a
> rider is sick, should there be a parade until he is recovered? Where does
> it end? Had Mayo cut across Ullrich's line, or Zubeldia held him to
> insure Mayo's sprint, that would seem to meet the standard of beastliness.
> In the end, I doubt this race, close as it is, is going to result in these
> 4 secs. becoming an issue in the final classification. But one never
> knows... In the end, the person with the most to lose over what happened
> is too noble to comment!

I don't buy that everyone was working at 100% capability during the
Armstrong chase. Mayo and Zubeldia were conspicuous in their strategy
of hanging on Ulrich's wheel with no intention of taking the lead, in my
opinion. I doubt very seriously that either of them would say they
chose never to respond to several requests on the part of Ulrich for
them to pull a little of their own weight in attempting to minimalize
the Armstrong damage because they were "hammering at 100% capability."
Likewise, I doubt that they took any particular pleasure in denying
Ulrich 2nd place, but the limits to which they were willing to stoop for
the sake of pleasing the local crowd were regrettable. It's nice to see
Basques do well in Basque country, but it's too bad a bottom-feeder
strategy was apparently required to do so. Granted, sportsmanship can
be taken to silly extremes (the ultimate expression of which is
professional mixed doubles in tennis) but this situation didn't fall in
that category, IMHO.

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