Botero's role in today's stage

[Nick Burns]

After LA and Jan took off, Botero was called back to wait for Vino. Botero
was off the front and second on the road about 2 minutes behind the lone
breakaway.

What in the hell did he hope to accomplish that was more important that
watching out for Vino?

What in the hell in wrong with the Telekom team? They don't seem to know how
to put together a cohesive team. They have Zabel looking for stage wins and
possibly the green jersey (too late now, but earlier that would have been
his goal). They have Vino, who is by far the most successful rider this year
and he was only 18 seconds out of first place and THREE SECONDS from second.
Why couldn't Botero have been riding in the group helping Vinokourov? He
would have kept Vino from losing as much time on the Tourmalet and possibly
they would have arrived at the bottom of the final climb with the other 2
leaders. I have heard no discussion of this. I was always a fan of Botero
but this is terrible.

Vino deserves much better.

[warren]

In article >, Nick Burns
> wrote:

> After LA and Jan took off, Botero was called back to wait for Vino. Botero
> was off the front and second on the road about 2 minutes behind the lone
> breakaway.
>
> What in the hell did he hope to accomplish that was more important that
> watching out for Vino?

I wondered the same thing when I saw Botero waiting for Vino. He should
have been next to him to whole time. Watching this Telekom "team" I'm
beginning to think they did Julich a favor by leaving him home to train
in Nevada.

-WG

[Robert Chung]

"Nick Burns" > wrote in message
...

> Why couldn't Botero have been riding in the group helping Vinokourov? He
> would have kept Vino from losing as much time on the Tourmalet and
possibly
> they would have arrived at the bottom of the final climb with the other 2
> leaders. I have heard no discussion of this.

Vinokourov joined the Armstrong/Ullrich group just a bit after they arrived
at the bottom of the climb.

[Raptor]

Nick Burns wrote:
> After LA and Jan took off, Botero was called back to wait for Vino. Botero
> was off the front and second on the road about 2 minutes behind the lone
> breakaway.
>
> What in the hell did he hope to accomplish that was more important that
> watching out for Vino?
>
> What in the hell in wrong with the Telekom team? They don't seem to know how
> to put together a cohesive team. They have Zabel looking for stage wins and
> possibly the green jersey (too late now, but earlier that would have been
> his goal). They have Vino, who is by far the most successful rider this year
> and he was only 18 seconds out of first place and THREE SECONDS from second.
> Why couldn't Botero have been riding in the group helping Vinokourov? He
> would have kept Vino from losing as much time on the Tourmalet and possibly
> they would have arrived at the bottom of the final climb with the other 2
> leaders. I have heard no discussion of this. I was always a fan of Botero
> but this is terrible.
>
> Vino deserves much better.

What's different between this and USPS's tactics of 2 and 3 stages ago?

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

[David Ryan]

warren wrote:
>
> In article >, Nick Burns
> > wrote:
>
> > After LA and Jan took off, Botero was called back to wait for Vino. Botero
> > was off the front and second on the road about 2 minutes behind the lone
> > breakaway.
> >
> > What in the hell did he hope to accomplish that was more important that
> > watching out for Vino?
>
> I wondered the same thing when I saw Botero waiting for Vino. He should
> have been next to him to whole time. Watching this Telekom "team" I'm
> beginning to think they did Julich a favor by leaving him home to train
> in Nevada.
>
> -WG

He was probably supposed to serve the same function Beltran and
Rubiera did for Armstrong on the last climb the previous two days.
But Vino isn't Armstrong.

[David N. Welton]

"Nick Burns" > writes:

> After LA and Jan took off, Botero was called back to wait for
> Vino. Botero was off the front and second on the road about 2
> minutes behind the lone breakaway.

> What in the hell did he hope to accomplish that was more important
> that watching out for Vino?

It's a pretty common tactic, actually. You send your climbing
lieutenant ahead on the road so that he's in a position to help you
when you bridge up later in the stage. Botero *did* help Vino on the
Tourmalet descent - they actually made contact with the Armstrong
group, but only at the beginning of the final ascent, where Vino
promptly got dropped again.

A great example of this tactic was the Faenza stage of the Giro, where
Simoni had Bertognoli (sp?) up the road, who then helped him all the
way to the line, despite being pretty tired.

--
David N. Welton
Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/

[Donald Munro]

Nick Burns wrote:
>
> > After LA and Jan took off, Botero was called back to wait for Vino. Botero
> > was off the front and second on the road about 2 minutes behind the lone
> > breakaway.
> >
> > What in the hell did he hope to accomplish that was more important that
> > watching out for Vino?

Marlene Blanshay wrote:
> I think they'll reconsider before letting Botero choose his training
> regimen. Apparently he chose to race in S. America to get ready for the
> tour, and that obviously wasn't enough. Botero has done enough grand tours
> to know how hard the Tour is. I know the colombian mountains are reputed
> to be very tough, but it seems they aren't quite enough to get you ready
> for the Alps and the Pyrenees!

Also its winter here in the southern hemisphere so he would not have
been heat acclimitised. On top of that he does not have nearly enough
racing miles in his legs this season.

[Donald Munro]

Nick Burns wrote:
> After LA and Jan took off, Botero was called back to wait for Vino. Botero
> was off the front and second on the road about 2 minutes behind the lone
> breakaway.
>
> What in the hell did he hope to accomplish that was more important that
> watching out for Vino?
>
> What in the hell in wrong with the Telekom team? They don't seem to know how
> to put together a cohesive team. They have Zabel looking for stage wins and
> possibly the green jersey (too late now, but earlier that would have been
> his goal). They have Vino, who is by far the most successful rider this year
> and he was only 18 seconds out of first place and THREE SECONDS from second.
> Why couldn't Botero have been riding in the group helping Vinokourov? He
> would have kept Vino from losing as much time on the Tourmalet and possibly
> they would have arrived at the bottom of the final climb with the other 2
> leaders. I have heard no discussion of this. I was always a fan of Botero
> but this is terrible.
>
> Vino deserves much better.

As far as helping Vinokourov is concerned at least he did help getting
him back up to the chasing group which eventually caught the yellow
jersey group thanks to some hard work from another Telekom rider
(Guerini I think). Maybe if he hadn't been in the break he might
already have been dropped and not have been able to help at all.

[Carl Sundquist]

"Donald Munro" > wrote in message
> > I think they'll reconsider before letting Botero choose his training
> > regimen. Apparently he chose to race in S. America to get ready for the
> > tour, and that obviously wasn't enough. Botero has done enough grand
tours
> > to know how hard the Tour is. I know the colombian mountains are reputed
> > to be very tough, but it seems they aren't quite enough to get you ready
> > for the Alps and the Pyrenees!
>
> Also its winter here in the southern hemisphere so he would not have
> been heat acclimitised. On top of that he does not have nearly enough
> racing miles in his legs this season.

Colombia sits pretty close to the equator. There are plenty of places in
South America to race year round.

[Nick Burns]

"Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Donald Munro" > wrote in message
> > > I think they'll reconsider before letting Botero choose his training
> > > regimen. Apparently he chose to race in S. America to get ready for
the
> > > tour, and that obviously wasn't enough. Botero has done enough grand
> tours
> > > to know how hard the Tour is. I know the colombian mountains are
reputed
> > > to be very tough, but it seems they aren't quite enough to get you
ready
> > > for the Alps and the Pyrenees!
> >
> > Also its winter here in the southern hemisphere so he would not have
> > been heat acclimitised. On top of that he does not have nearly enough
> > racing miles in his legs this season.
>
> Colombia sits pretty close to the equator. There are plenty of places in
> South America to race year round.

In addition, he was said to have followed the same program as always. There
is something about him that is not widely know. This is a huge
disappointment for his fans. It looked like he could have been the best
Colombian cyclist of all time.

[Nick Burns]

"Raptor" > wrote in message ...
> Nick Burns wrote:
> > After LA and Jan took off, Botero was called back to wait for Vino.
Botero
> > was off the front and second on the road about 2 minutes behind the lone
> > breakaway.
> >
> > What in the hell did he hope to accomplish that was more important that
> > watching out for Vino?
> >
> > What in the hell in wrong with the Telekom team? They don't seem to know
how
> > to put together a cohesive team. They have Zabel looking for stage wins
and
> > possibly the green jersey (too late now, but earlier that would have
been
> > his goal). They have Vino, who is by far the most successful rider this
year
> > and he was only 18 seconds out of first place and THREE SECONDS from
second.
> > Why couldn't Botero have been riding in the group helping Vinokourov? He
> > would have kept Vino from losing as much time on the Tourmalet and
possibly
> > they would have arrived at the bottom of the final climb with the other
2
> > leaders. I have heard no discussion of this. I was always a fan of
Botero
> > but this is terrible.
> >
> > Vino deserves much better.
>
> What's different between this and USPS's tactics of 2 and 3 stages ago?

What is different is that USPS has 3 strong climbers. Send one up and the 2
others can stay with Armstrong. AND, the USPS riders were not riding solo.
They were sitting in on a break. Vino was left ALONE when they had a choice.
Lance was never left alone while his team was up the road.
>
> --
> --
> Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
> "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
> our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
> --Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
>

[Steve McGinty]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:07:35 GMT, "Nick Burns" >
wrote:

>
>"Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Donald Munro" > wrote in message
>> > > I think they'll reconsider before letting Botero choose his training
>> > > regimen. Apparently he chose to race in S. America to get ready for
>the
>> > > tour, and that obviously wasn't enough. Botero has done enough grand
>> tours
>> > > to know how hard the Tour is. I know the colombian mountains are
>reputed
>> > > to be very tough, but it seems they aren't quite enough to get you
>ready
>> > > for the Alps and the Pyrenees!
>> >
>> > Also its winter here in the southern hemisphere so he would not have
>> > been heat acclimitised. On top of that he does not have nearly enough
>> > racing miles in his legs this season.
>>
>> Colombia sits pretty close to the equator. There are plenty of places in
>> South America to race year round.
>
>In addition, he was said to have followed the same program as always. There
>is something about him that is not widely know. This is a huge
>disappointment for his fans.

Especially those of us who had a fiver on him at 20-1. Damn, my bookie
must look forward to July sooooo much.


Regards!
Stephen

[Nev Shea]

(Donald Munro) wrote in
m:

> Also its winter here in the southern hemisphere so he would not have
> been heat acclimitised. On top of that he does not have nearly enough
> racing miles in his legs this season.

Hey dumbass

Here's a map of South America:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/americas/south_america_ref02.jpg

Botero is from Medellin, Columbia -- you can see that it is just barely
north of the equator, so why are you talking about winter in the southern
hemisphere? And why should someone who lives near the equator have a
problem with the heat? (assuming he didn't spend all day inside air
conditioned rooms)


NS

[Raptor]

Nick Burns wrote:
> "Raptor" > wrote in message ...
>>What's different between this and USPS's tactics of 2 and 3 stages ago?
>
>
> What is different is that USPS has 3 strong climbers. Send one up and the 2
> others can stay with Armstrong. AND, the USPS riders were not riding solo.
> They were sitting in on a break. Vino was left ALONE when they had a choice.
> Lance was never left alone while his team was up the road.

And Botero wasn't highly placed, I realize. So the tactic didn't have
the same affect on the peloton. But Telekom wasn't going to save any
pace-making work anyway with LANCE and Jan fighting it out.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

[Carl Sundquist]

"Nev Shea" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> (Donald Munro) wrote in
> m:
>
> > Also its winter here in the southern hemisphere so he would not have
> > been heat acclimitised. On top of that he does not have nearly enough
> > racing miles in his legs this season.
>
> Hey dumbass
>
> Here's a map of South America:
>
> http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/americas/south_america_ref02.jpg
>
> Botero is from Medellin, Columbia -- you can see that it is just barely
> north of the equator, so why are you talking about winter in the southern
> hemisphere? And why should someone who lives near the equator have a
> problem with the heat? (assuming he didn't spend all day inside air
> conditioned rooms)
>

Actually, it isn't quite as simple as that. Though I can't recall the
altitude for Medellin (it is nestled in a valley between mountains), someone
from Bogotá, which is at about 9000 ft, would have trouble with heat _if
that is where they stayed most of the time_.

Even the old Pony Malta team had a training house in Bogotá.

If a rider wasn't based in the high mountains though, they would be plenty
acclimatized to the heat, and a humid heat at that.

[Carl Sundquist]

"Nev Shea" > wrote in message
>
> I think Botero's problem is that he's got a naturally high testosterone
> level, and he's just worn out because all the Columbian babes have been
> chasing him.
>

Lucky him.

[Ewoud Dronkert]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:58:03 GMT, Nev Shea wrote:
>I think Botero's problem is that he's got a naturally high testosterone
>level, and he's just worn out because all the Columbian babes have been
>chasing him.

Colombian. But good point.

[Nick Burns]

"Nev Shea" > wrote in message
rthlink.net...
> "Carl Sundquist" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Nev Shea" > wrote in message
> > thlink.net...
> >> (Donald Munro) wrote in
> >> m:
> >>
> >> > Also its winter here in the southern hemisphere so he would not
> >> > have been heat acclimitised. On top of that he does not have nearly
> >> > enough racing miles in his legs this season.
> >>
> >> Hey dumbass
> >>
> >> Here's a map of South America:
> >>
> >> http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/americas/south_america_ref02.jpg
> >>
> >> Botero is from Medellin, Columbia -- you can see that it is just
> >> barely north of the equator, so why are you talking about winter in
> >> the southern hemisphere? And why should someone who lives near the
> >> equator have a problem with the heat? (assuming he didn't spend all
> >> day inside air conditioned rooms)
> >>
> >
> > Actually, it isn't quite as simple as that. Though I can't recall the
> > altitude for Medellin (it is nestled in a valley between mountains),
> > someone from Bogotá, which is at about 9000 ft, would have trouble
> > with heat _if that is where they stayed most of the time_.
> >
> > Even the old Pony Malta team had a training house in Bogotá.
> >
> > If a rider wasn't based in the high mountains though, they would be
> > plenty acclimatized to the heat, and a humid heat at that.
>
>
> Of course you're right --there were two silly posts in a row, and I was
> lazy and just chose to mock the one that assumed that South America
> automatically means southern hemisphere and keep it simple so I wouldn't
> confuse all but the more thoughtful readers like you and a few others.
>
> The previous poster believes that proper training in the Andes wouldn't
> prepare Botero for the Pyrenees or Alps, and your comments on the
> altitude contradict that notion. Besides, Botero claimed to be following
> the preparation he's always used, so did the Andes somehow become less
> challenging since he got 4th on GC last year? If so, let's blame it on
> El Nino.
>
> I think Botero's problem is that he's got a naturally high testosterone
> level, and he's just worn out because all the Columbian babes have been
> chasing him.
>
> NS

More like gangsters. There are many many people that leave Colombia because
high visibility is dangerous in a country that has organized criminals that
do nothing else but kidnap people for ransom the way that Al Capone
organized the bootlegging.

[Donald Munro]

Donald Munro wrote:
>> Also its winter here in the southern hemisphere so he would not have
>> been heat acclimitised. On top of that he does not have nearly enough
>> racing miles in his legs this season.

Nev Shea wrote:
> Hey dumbass
From previous posts by you I had thought you were more intelligent than to
ape this infantile dumbass posting style.

> Here's a map of South America:
>
> http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/americas/south_america_ref02.jpg

And here is a link to a description of Columbia's geography that indicates
that the mountaineous regions are much cooler with many mountains
permanenly covered in snow:
http://www.ddg.com/LIS/aurelia/colgeo1.htm

And here is an interview with Botero indicating that he is training in the
mountains :
http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2002/interviews/?id=botero02
In particular note his reply on training in Colombia:
'SB: I like to prepare
myself in Colombia where I have the best terrain to train with climbs
reaching 8,000 feet, and nice spring weather all year round in my
hometown, Medellìn. Plus I have got suitable people to help me prepare.
The team has understood that, and they know that for me it is very
important. After the first training camp I will return to carry on with my
preparation in Colombia.'

Note he says spring weather which does not normally include 35C-40C
weather encountered in the Tour this year.

Oh and BTW in a later response you say: 'The previous poster believes that
proper training in the Andes wouldn't prepare Botero for the Pyrenees or
Alps'

Pray tell me where I said anything of that nature. My only critiscm of
his training was that he did not get enough racing miles in his legs, a
fact that seems fairly self evident judging by his performance.

I am so sorry for making such a silly post, and I realise that I am not
worthy of critiscm from such a thoughtful and intelligent person as you
evidently are.