Armstrong vs Ullrich / racing weight

[Steve Kenney]

In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that Ullrich
has a climbing disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must have
heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right.
According to the rider stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by 2kg
or 4.4 pounds.

Steve Kenney

[David Ryan]

Steve Kenney wrote:
>
> In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that Ullrich
> has a climbing disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must have
> heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right.
> According to the rider stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by 2kg
> or 4.4 pounds.
>
> Steve Kenney

Maybe the reference was to the start of his 2001 Sausage Boy season?

letour.fr

US POSTAL - BERRY FLOOR
1 - ARMSTRONG Lance (Etats-Unis)
Born in 18/09/1971
Height : 1.77 m
Weight : 75.0 kg

TEAM BIANCHI
131 - ULLRICH Jan (Allemagne)
Born in 02/12/1973
Height : 1.83 m
Weight : 73.0 kg

[Andy Coggan]

"Steve Kenney" > wrote in message
...
> In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that Ullrich
> has a climbing disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must
have
> heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right.
> According to the rider stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by
2kg
> or 4.4 pounds.

I don't think the rider's "official" weights from the TdF website can be
trusted.

FWIW, Armstrong was quoted just before the Tour began as saying that he was
struggling to get down to his fighting weight of previous years of "about 74
kg". More recently, he was quoted as saying that he weighed 66.5 kg
immediately after the TT, vs. "probably" 72-73 kg that morning. Put it all
together, and my guess is that he normally weighs significantly more than 74
kg, diets down to that weight by the start of the race, then loses another
1-1.5 kg during the race.

Armstrong's exact weight is relevant in attempting to estimate his
power/weight based on reported SRM data and/or climbing performance...which
is why I've been taking note.

Andy Coggan

[Todd Kuzma]

Steve Kenney wrote:
> In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that Ullrich
> has a climbing disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must have
> heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right.
> According to the rider stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by 2kg
> or 4.4 pounds.

That was Paul Sherwen, and it's another example of him
talking out his ass. Same thing with his comment about
Jan's wheels being too stiff.

Todd Kuzma

[Dieter Buerssner]

Andy Coggan wrote:

> More recently, he was quoted as saying that he
> weighed 66.5 kg immediately after the TT, vs. "probably" 72-73 kg that
> morning.

So, a difference of at least 5.5 kg. The evaporation enthalpy (not sure, if
this is the correct term) of water is a bit over 40 KJ/mol. So, to evaporte
5.5 kg of water in 1 hour, one would need a power of

5500 g/(18 g/mol) * 40000 J/mol / 3600 s = 3400 W

Or in other words, say Armstrong's body is working at 50% efficiency, it
would be enough to cool a power output of 3400 W (when the only heat loss
is by sweating, and the air temperature is about body temperature, and
quite a few more ands ...).

Of course, some sweat will just drip down, and not evaporate. And warm up
times etc. But those numbers look way off.

Dieter

[Nick Burns]

"Andy Coggan" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> "Steve Kenney" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that
Ullrich
> > has a climbing disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must
> have
> > heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right.
> > According to the rider stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by
> 2kg
> > or 4.4 pounds.
>
> I don't think the rider's "official" weights from the TdF website can be
> trusted.
>
> FWIW, Armstrong was quoted just before the Tour began as saying that he
was
> struggling to get down to his fighting weight of previous years of "about
74
> kg". More recently, he was quoted as saying that he weighed 66.5 kg
> immediately after the TT, vs. "probably" 72-73 kg that morning. Put it all
> together, and my guess is that he normally weighs significantly more than
74
> kg, diets down to that weight by the start of the race, then loses another
> 1-1.5 kg during the race.
>
> Armstrong's exact weight is relevant in attempting to estimate his
> power/weight based on reported SRM data and/or climbing
performance...which
> is why I've been taking note.
>
> Andy Coggan


I know that the rider's own websites have their "marketing" weights but does
not the Tour do health checks including weigh ins?

[Bob]

Steve Kenney wrote:

> In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that Ullrich
> has a climbing disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must
have
> heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right.
> According to the rider stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by
2kg
> or 4.4 pounds.

jan being around 30lbs heavier seems about right. he is 2" taller than lance
(assuming available stats are correct) and he looks a lot heavier.

[Andy Coggan]

"Dieter Buerssner" > wrote in message
. t-online.de...
> Andy Coggan wrote:
>
> > More recently, he was quoted as saying that he
> > weighed 66.5 kg immediately after the TT, vs. "probably" 72-73 kg that
> > morning.
>
> So, a difference of at least 5.5 kg. The evaporation enthalpy (not sure,
if
> this is the correct term) of water is a bit over 40 KJ/mol. So, to
evaporte
> 5.5 kg of water in 1 hour, one would need a power of
>
> 5500 g/(18 g/mol) * 40000 J/mol / 3600 s = 3400 W
>
> Or in other words, say Armstrong's body is working at 50% efficiency, it
> would be enough to cool a power output of 3400 W (when the only heat loss
> is by sweating, and the air temperature is about body temperature, and
> quite a few more ands ...).
>
> Of course, some sweat will just drip down, and not evaporate. And warm up
> times etc. But those numbers look way off.

They are, because everyone has assumed Armstrong knew what he weighed before
and after the TT. Reading his comments, though, it appears to me that he
weighed himself only afterwards, and was guessing at his morning weight. My
guess is that his state of dehydration was arrived at over a far longer
period than the just the 1 hour of the TT...most likely over days. (IOW, he
was much lighter than 72-73 kg on the morning of the TT.)

Andy Coggan

[Gregory Kinney]

I have to say, the people on this newsgroup are extremely harsh on the
announcers. It seems to me there was a precident with Ulrich having
problems with "similar" stiff wheels during a decent ('89). Yes I know
they weren't the same wheels blah balh blah, but the point is that there
was a precedent, and thus reason to mention it. Hardly talking out of
his ass. He is COMMENTATING. Making interesting commentary on a bike
race when not much is going on is a fairly difficult job, I would
assume, and I think they (Phil and Paul) both do an excellent job, imho.
Play by play of a decent would get pretty old pretty fast...

He's rolling, and peddeling, and turning, and not pedeling, and rolling
still, oohhh and now he's peddaling, and still still always rolling! Oh
and now he's turning again. ohhh very exciting! And now he's going straight!

As for the weight, I recall hearing (last year/year before) that Lance
was a good deal lighter than Ulrich (maybe 20lbs? can't remember). Jan
looks much bigger than Lance, and is taller. It is hard to imagine that
he is only 4.4 lbs heavier. I would guess at least 15, perhaps 20lbs
difference. Could be more...

Todd Kuzma wrote:

> Steve Kenney wrote:
>
>> In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that
>> Ullrich
>> has a climbing disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I
>> must have
>> heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right.
>> According to the rider stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan
>> by 2kg
>> or 4.4 pounds.
>
>
> That was Paul Sherwen, and it's another example of him talking out his
> ass. Same thing with his comment about Jan's wheels being too stiff.
>
> Todd Kuzma
>

[Precious Pup]

Todd Kuzma wrote:
>
> Steve Kenney wrote:
> > In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that Ullrich
> > has a climbing disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must have
> > heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right.
> > According to the rider stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by 2kg
> > or 4.4 pounds.
>
> That was Paul Sherwen, and it's another example of him
> talking out his ass. Same thing with his comment about
> Jan's wheels being too stiff.


Yeah. Just like the ludicrous downhill speeds he sometimes states. He seems to have tamed that exaggeration
a bit in this years tour. Then again, I've been trained to tune him out when he makes a "technical" claim.

[Nick Burns]

"Precious Pup" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Andy Coggan wrote:
> >
> > "Steve Kenney" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that
Ullrich
> > > has a climbing disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I
must
> > have
> > > heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right.
> > > According to the rider stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan
by
> > 2kg
> > > or 4.4 pounds.
> >
> > I don't think the rider's "official" weights from the TdF website can be
> > trusted.
> >
> > FWIW, Armstrong was quoted just before the Tour began as saying that he
was
> > struggling to get down to his fighting weight of previous years of
"about 74
> > kg". More recently, he was quoted as saying that he weighed 66.5 kg
> > immediately after the TT, vs. "probably" 72-73 kg that morning. Put it
all
> > together, and my guess is that he normally weighs significantly more
than 74
> > kg, diets down to that weight by the start of the race, then loses
another
> > 1-1.5 kg during the race.
>
>
> I recall that Armstrong tries to get down to about 158 lb (72 kg) or so
for the tour. Very light considering
> I think I remenber he won the Du Pont at around 170-175 lb or so.
>
> > Armstrong's exact weight is relevant in attempting to estimate his
> > power/weight based on reported SRM data and/or climbing
performance...which
> > is why I've been taking note.
>
> Isn't this obvious enough that it need not be stated? Never mind.


I think he is trying to establish that his opinion is important because he
is highly motivated to find out?

[Todd Kuzma]

gk wrote:

> You make the reactionary statment that [if] the sources are off by 35-40
> lbs (???) then Ulrich is 195 lbs. What?.

This thread started with Paul Sherwen's comment that Jan
Ullrich weigh 33 pounds more than Armstrong. I said that he
was talking out his ass and from what you write below, you
agree:

> If LA is more like 155-160lbs
> (71 kg is what I have seen quoted), and Ulrich is more like 165-170 lbs,
> that is a 10-15 lb difference.

Lance said after stage 13 that his race weight this year is
72 kg (158 pounds - below what the "official" sites list him
as). Ullrich is listed by several sources as 73 kg. He is
much lighter than in past years.

In any case, I stand by my comment that Paul Sherwen is
talking out his ass.

Todd Kuzma

[DMc]

gk > wrote in message >...
> There have been several articles that I have read discussing the
> superior power-to-weight ratio of Armstrong. This would imply that he is
> lighter, since Ullrich is no slouch when it comes to power.
>
> Countless times I have heard, through my ears, about how much lighter
> Armstrong is that Ulrich.
>
> You make the reactionary statment that the sources are off by 35-40
> lbs (???) then Ulrich is 195 lbs. What?. If LA is more like 155-160lbs
> (71 kg is what I have seen quoted), and Ulrich is more like 165-170 lbs,
> that is a 10-15 lb difference.
>
> snipped from an above post:
>
> "...and my guess is that he normally weighs significantly more than 74
> kg, diets down to that weight by the start of the race, then loses
> another 1-1.5 kg during the race."
>
> This is exactly what I have read. he weighs about 77 kg, and drops to 71
> around race time = 156lbs
>
> I would be very surprised if a 5'9" person with 4% body fat with very
> little upper body mass is 170lbs. He probably gets this lean for the race...
>
> In the past, I thought Ullrich had weight problems; and perhaps he
> doesn't lose the weight before the race...
>
> Todd Kuzma wrote:
>[i]
> >
> >
> > According to the Tour site, Lance is 1.77m tall and weighs 75 kg (165
> > pounds). According to the USPS team site, he is 1.78m tall and weighs
> > 77 kg (170 pounds).
> >
> > According to the Tour site, Bianchi team site, and Jan Ullrich's own
> > site, Jan is 1.83 mm tall and weighs 73 kg (161 pounds).
> >
> > So, I guess all of these sources are off by 35-40 pounds, and Jan
> > Ullrich is the best 195+ pound climber in the history of cycling.
> >
> > Todd Kuzma
> >
I agree

[Benjamin Weiner]

Todd Kuzma > wrote:

> According to the Tour site, Lance is 1.77m tall and weighs
> 75 kg (165 pounds). According to the USPS team site, he is
> 1.78m tall and weighs 77 kg (170 pounds).

I sure don't believe that last number, unless Lance has been
hiding penny rolls in his shorts. This is based on nothing
more scientific than a comparison to my own Fat Master body.
I don't really believe any of these numbers apply especially
after 2.5 weeks of high intensity racing.

As for the business about Jan's deep dish carbon wheels, it is likely
the braking quality that is an issue, not stiffness. Dan Connelly
needs to repost a link to that picture of Bill Lloyd's road rash at
Pescadero for corroboration. Give Sherwen a break, with having to
talk nonstop for hours while diplomatically correcting Phil's
misidentifications, he is going to make up some random stuff.

> According to the Tour site, Bianchi team site, and Jan
> Ullrich's own site, Jan is 1.83 mm tall and weighs 73 kg
> (161 pounds).

[Todd Kuzma]

Gregory Kinney wrote:

> Well, I guess that was my point, although I don't think he was making up
> random stuff, he was embellishing and perhaps exaggerating a bit. So to
> me, he wasn't "talking out of his ass", since Armstrong's lighter weight
> relative to Ullrich's has been a topic in the past, and is relevant to a
> discussion on ascending;

Hey, I LIKE Paul and Phil, but Sherwen said that Ullrich
weighed 33 pounds more than Armstrong, and that isn't even
close. It's not "exaggerating a bit." It's "talking out of
his ass."

Yes, people have talked about the weight difference in the
past, but Ullrich showed up at the Tour much lighter than in
the past. Going by every published weight for the two
(including Lance's statement about his weight just this
week), they are no more than 5 pounds apart either way.

Todd Kuzma

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Claire Petersky" > wrote in message
m...
> Todd Kuzma > wrote in message
>...
>
> > According to the Tour site, Lance is 1.77m tall and weighs
> > 75 kg (165 pounds).
>
> So, I'm 1.75m tall, and I weigh 70 kgs -- how come I'm not in the Tour
> de France, huh? huh? huh?



I'll guess: Wattage Deficit Disorder




K. Gringioni
sufferer of WDD

[Benjamin Weiner]

Todd Kuzma > wrote:

> Hey, I LIKE Paul and Phil, but Sherwen said that Ullrich
> weighed 33 pounds more than Armstrong, and that isn't even
> close. It's not "exaggerating a bit." It's "talking out of
> his ass."

Okay, that is in fact ridiculous. Even fat non-climbing sprinters
like Cipollini and Petacchi don't weigh 33 pounds more than
Armstrong. I was cutting him a break over the carbon wheels
business only. (Maybe he meant 15 pounds not 15 kilos, I don't
believe that either but Sherwen might.)

[Scott Downie]

30lbs ? He must product a great deal more power than Armstrong to stay with
him in the mountains if he is giving up 30lbs. Is that difference in power
what we saw in the 48k TT with Jan taking 1.30? If it is then Lance is in
trouble on the final TT.

--
Irrationally held truths may be more harmfull than reasoned errors.
"Bob" > wrote in message news:1CeTa.109244$OZ2.21138@rwcrnsc54...
>
> Steve Kenney wrote:
>
> > In the last stage climb I thought I heard Phil Ligget comment that
Ullrich
> > has a climbing disadvantage carrying more weight than Armstrong. I must
> have
> > heard this wrong, as I think I heard 33 pounds??? This can't be right.
> > According to the rider stat's on the TDF website Lance outweighs Jan by
> 2kg
> > or 4.4 pounds.
>
> jan being around 30lbs heavier seems about right. he is 2" taller than
lance
> (assuming available stats are correct) and he looks a lot heavier.
>
>

[Benjamin Weiner]

Claire Petersky > wrote:
> Todd Kuzma > wrote in message >...

> > According to the Tour site, Lance is 1.77m tall and weighs
> > 75 kg (165 pounds).

> So, I'm 1.75m tall, and I weigh 70 kgs -- how come I'm not in the Tour
> de France, huh? huh? huh?

It's the conspiracy to keep women out of the Tour de France,
I think we went over this a week or two ago.

[Todd Kuzma]

Benjamin Weiner wrote:
> (Maybe he meant 15 pounds not 15 kilos, I don't
> believe that either but Sherwen might.)

He actually said 15 kilos and then said 33 pounds.

Todd Kuzma