Bayonne

[Roger Bogda]

First there was WWII, Bayonne played a part, the Allies won....

Now there is WWIII and Bayonne once again plays it part.....hopefully with
the same ultimate result!

Roger B

[Ewoud Dronkert]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:46:16 -0400, Roger Bogda wrote:
> Now there is WWIII and Bayonne once again plays it part.....hopefully with
> the same ultimate result!

6 million dead?

[Roger Bogda]

My apologies, didn't intend to impy that...only one German with a slightly
wounded ego.

R

"Ewoud Dronkert" > wrote in message
fn.de...
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:46:16 -0400, Roger Bogda wrote:
> > Now there is WWIII and Bayonne once again plays it part.....hopefully
with
> > the same ultimate result!
>
> 6 million dead?

[Benjamin Werner]

"Roger Bogda" > writes:

> First there was WWII, Bayonne played a part, the Allies won....
>
> Now there is WWIII and Bayonne once again plays it part.....hopefully with
> the same ultimate result!

Hum, I am afraid you are confirming the cliches about americans'
weak knowledge of foreign geography.

Benjamin

[Robert Chung]

"Roger Bogda" > wrote in message
...
> First there was WWII, Bayonne played a part, the Allies won....
>
> Now there is WWIII and Bayonne once again plays it part.....hopefully with
> the same ultimate result!

Um, could you clarify the part that Bayonne played in WWII?

[Ewoud Dronkert]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:48:23 +0200, Robert Chung wrote:
> Um, could you clarify the part that Bayonne played in WWII?

He saw the 6th episode of Band of Brothers, "Bastogne".

[David Ryan]

Robert Chung wrote:
>
> "Roger Bogda" > wrote in message
> ...
> > First there was WWII, Bayonne played a part, the Allies won....
> >
> > Now there is WWIII and Bayonne once again plays it part.....hopefully with
> > the same ultimate result!
>
> Um, could you clarify the part that Bayonne played in WWII?

Probably thinking of Bayonne, New Jersey.
Major naval shipyard in WWII.

[Roger Bogda]

My geography is good enough to know that New Jersey is not in France, see my
post Bayonne in WWII...and my reading skills are good enough to not confuse
Bayonne and Bastogne!

Roger B

"David Ryan" > wrote in message
...
> Robert Chung wrote:
> >
> > "Roger Bogda" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > First there was WWII, Bayonne played a part, the Allies won....
> > >
> > > Now there is WWIII and Bayonne once again plays it part.....hopefully
with
> > > the same ultimate result!
> >
> > Um, could you clarify the part that Bayonne played in WWII?
>
> Probably thinking of Bayonne, New Jersey.
> Major naval shipyard in WWII.

[Jay Pique]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:14:37 GMT, "Kurgan Gringioni"
> wrote:

>
>"Benjamin Werner" > wrote in message
...
>> "Roger Bogda" > writes:
>>
>> > First there was WWII, Bayonne played a part, the Allies won....
>> >
>> > Now there is WWIII and Bayonne once again plays it part.....hopefully
>with
>> > the same ultimate result!
>>
>> Hum, I am afraid you are confirming the cliches about americans'
>> weak knowledge of foreign geography.
>
>
>
>
>Dumbass -
>
>Don't even get into foreign - Americans have weak knowledge of domestic
>geography.

And yet we still have the most dominant army, economy and bike racer
in the world. Strange.

JP

[K. J. Papai]

"Roger Bogda" > wrote in message >...
> First there was WWII, Bayonne played a part, the Allies won....
>
> Now there is WWIII and Bayonne once again plays it part.....hopefully with
> the same ultimate result!
>
> Roger B


You equate WW III with the Tour? WTF?

[Roger Bogda]

It is metaphor....

R

"K. J. Papai" > wrote in message
om...
> "Roger Bogda" > wrote in message
>...
> > First there was WWII, Bayonne played a part, the Allies won....
> >
> > Now there is WWIII and Bayonne once again plays it part.....hopefully
with
> > the same ultimate result!
> >
> > Roger B
>
>
> You equate WW III with the Tour? WTF?

[Clovis Lark]

Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:

> "Jay Pique" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:14:37 GMT, "Kurgan Gringioni"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Benjamin Werner" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> "Roger Bogda" > writes:
>> >>
>> >> > First there was WWII, Bayonne played a part, the Allies won....
>> >> >
>> >> > Now there is WWIII and Bayonne once again plays it part.....hopefully
>> >with
>> >> > the same ultimate result!
>> >>
>> >> Hum, I am afraid you are confirming the cliches about americans'
>> >> weak knowledge of foreign geography.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Dumbass -
>> >
>> >Don't even get into foreign - Americans have weak knowledge of domestic
>> >geography.
>>
>> And yet we still have the most dominant army, economy and bike racer
>> in the world. Strange.



> You Dumbass -

> Those are unrelated.

> It's a fact that as a whole we are geographically ignorant.

> from:
> http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/education/20021121-9999_8n21geog.html

> Only 13 percent of young Americans can pick out Iraq on a map, despite the
> possibility of a U.S.-led war against that country. Even after last year's
> war in Afghanistan, only 17 percent can find that country on a map.

Unfortunately, the bomber pilots were from the minority...

> <snip>

> Other lowlights of the survey:

> 11 percent of Americans surveyed could not find the United States on an
> unlabeled map of the world.

> More young Americans knew that last season's "Survivor" television show was
> filmed on an island in the South Pacific than could locate New Jersey on a
> map.

> Of the Americans taking the quiz, 29 percent couldn't find the Pacific
> Ocean, 58 percent couldn't locate Japan, and 69 percent couldn't pick out
> the United Kingdom.



> begin 666 utbullet.gif
> M1TE&.#EA!0`'`( ``/___P```"'Y! $`````+ `````%``<`0 ('C(\)NZD,
> $"@`[````
> `
> end

[Raptor]

Jay Pique wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:14:37 GMT, "Kurgan Gringioni"
> > wrote:
>
>>Don't even get into foreign - Americans have weak knowledge of domestic
>>geography.
>
>
> And yet we still have the most dominant army, economy and bike racer
> in the world. Strange.
>
> JP

You don't need to know where you are to blow something up.
You don't need to know where something came from to buy it, or sell
there. (Only the transporters need to know.)
At least one American has a pretty good grasp of (Western European)
geography.

Not saying much.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Raptor" > wrote in message ...
> Jay Pique wrote:
> > On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:14:37 GMT, "Kurgan Gringioni"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>Don't even get into foreign - Americans have weak knowledge of domestic
> >>geography.
> >
> >
> > And yet we still have the most dominant army, economy and bike racer
> > in the world. Strange.
> >
> > JP
>
> You don't need to know where you are to blow something up.
> You don't need to know where something came from to buy it, or sell
> there. (Only the transporters need to know.)
> At least one American has a pretty good grasp of (Western European)
> geography.
>
> Not saying much.



Should the electorate be informed when it comes to making decisions on
foreign policy issues? Incorrect data/beliefs leads to faulty conclusions
which leads to faulty actions.


This bit of ignorance was in the news recently.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/07/23_hole.html

Some recent polls reveal 59% of Americans believe Saddam Hussein was
involved in 9/11, and 50% believe Iraqis were among the 9/11 hijackers. 41%
believe that WMD's have been found in Iraq, and 22% of Americans believe
Iraq used weapons of mass destruction during the U.S. invasion.

<snip><end>

[g]

Jay Pique > wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:14:37 GMT, "Kurgan Gringioni"
> > wrote:

> >Dumbass -
> >
> >Don't even get into foreign - Americans have weak knowledge of domestic
> >geography.
>
> And yet we still have the most dominant army, economy and bike racer
> in the world. Strange.

So.. when a gorilla is beating you over the head, do you change your
opinion of gorillas and start thinking of them as intellectually
superior?

GK

[Robert Chung]

"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message t...
>
> Should the electorate be informed when it comes to making decisions
> on foreign policy issues?

I believe the answer is (evidently) clear: the public's ignorance is not a
problem to overcome; rather, it is an opportunity to exploit.

[Benjamin Weiner]

Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
> "Jay Pique" > wrote in message

> > >"Benjamin Werner" > wrote in message

> > >> Hum, I am afraid you are confirming the cliches about americans'
> > >> weak knowledge of foreign geography.

> > >Don't even get into foreign - Americans have weak knowledge of domestic
> > >geography.

> > And yet we still have the most dominant army, economy and bike racer
> > in the world. Strange.

> You Dumbass -
> Those are unrelated.

Wrong, Henry. Cause and effect are reversed. Americans can get away
with being ignorant of foreign geography because we have the biggest
economy (and because the countries on our borders are not military
or economic threats). In the rest of the world they have to know who
their neighbors are and what the capital of the USA is (and they
also have at least a vague idea of New York and LA because we
export our TV and movies that are set in those places).

I just stepped out of a vintage/hipster clothing store in Sydney where
I saw a green and yellow jersey - and on the back it said "FAVRE".

[Clovis Lark]

Robert Chung > wrote:

> "Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
> message t...
>>
>> Should the electorate be informed when it comes to making decisions
>> on foreign policy issues?

> I believe the answer is (evidently) clear: the public's ignorance is not a
> problem to overcome; rather, it is an opportunity to exploit.


Indeed, one might think that the current overlords believe the electorate
should know nothing and do as told. Monsieur Ashcroft has even made open
statements suggesting this.

[Clovis Lark]

g > wrote:
> Jay Pique > wrote:

>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:14:37 GMT, "Kurgan Gringioni"
>> > wrote:

>> >Dumbass -
>> >
>> >Don't even get into foreign - Americans have weak knowledge of domestic
>> >geography.
>>
>> And yet we still have the most dominant army, economy and bike racer
>> in the world. Strange.

> So.. when a gorilla is beating you over the head, do you change your
> opinion of gorillas and start thinking of them as intellectually
> superior?

Speaking of gorillas:

Winner: "All Creatures Great and Small" Category

His knowing brown eyes held her gaze for a seeming eternity, his powerful
arms clasped her slim body in an irresistible embrace, and from his broad,
hairy chest a primal smell of "male" tantalized her nostrils; "Looks like
another long night in the ape house" thought veterinarian Abigail Brown as
she gingerly reached for the constipated gorilla's suppository.

Paul Jeffery
Oxford, England



> GK

[David Ryan]

Clovis Lark wrote:
>
> Robert Chung > wrote:
>
> > "Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
> > message t...
> >>
> >> Should the electorate be informed when it comes to making decisions
> >> on foreign policy issues?
>
> > I believe the answer is (evidently) clear: the public's ignorance is not a
> > problem to overcome; rather, it is an opportunity to exploit.
>
> Indeed, one might think that the current overlords believe the electorate
> should know nothing and do as told. Monsieur Ashcroft has even made open
> statements suggesting this.

Those of us who are informed are more dangerous.

[Raptor]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> "Raptor" > wrote in message ...
>
>>Jay Pique wrote:
>>>And yet we still have the most dominant army, economy and bike racer
>>>in the world. Strange.
>>>
>>>JP
>>
>>You don't need to know where you are to blow something up.
>>You don't need to know where something came from to buy it, or sell
>>there. (Only the transporters need to know.)
>>At least one American has a pretty good grasp of (Western European)
>>geography.
>>
>>Not saying much.
>
>
>
>
> Should the electorate be informed when it comes to making decisions on
> foreign policy issues? Incorrect data/beliefs leads to faulty conclusions
> which leads to faulty actions.

I didn't mean to imply that it was a good thing that Americans are
ignorant of geography, among many things. But I guess I implied that it
doesn't really matter, didn't I? Regardless, I don't approve.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Eddie" > wrote in message
om...
> "Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message >...
> >
> >
> > Should the electorate be informed when it comes to making decisions on
> > foreign policy issues? Incorrect data/beliefs leads to faulty
conclusions
> > which leads to faulty actions.
> >
> >
> > This bit of ignorance was in the news recently.
> >
> >
> > http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/07/23_hole.html
> >
> > Some recent polls reveal 59% of Americans believe Saddam Hussein was
> > involved in 9/11, and 50% believe Iraqis were among the 9/11 hijackers.
41%
> > believe that WMD's have been found in Iraq, and 22% of Americans believe
> > Iraq used weapons of mass destruction during the U.S. invasion.
> >
> > <snip><end>
>
> According to this website:
> http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L23109558.htm
>
> A poll of 1000 Germans by Die Zeit shows that 20% of Germans in all
> age groups and "almost 1/3" of Germs below the age of 30 believes that
> the United States may have sponsored the 9/11 attacks on New York and
> Washington.
>
> "Asked whether they believed that the U.S. government could have
> ordered the September 11 attacks itself, 31 percent of those surveyed
> under the age of 30 in the poll answered "yes", while 19 percent
> overall gave the same answer."



Goddamm. Those Germans are as stupid as us Americans.

[steve robertson]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:02:22 -0600, Jay Pique
> wrote:
>
>And yet we still have the most dominant army
[military] - agreed

>economy
Please don't make me laugh. The US is an economic basket
case right now. And it looks to be getting worse...

>and bike racer
If you mean Armstrong, he is not the best bike racer in the
world by a long shot. Bettini, Musseuw, Ullrich,
Vinokourov, and even Hamilton have proven to be better this
year. Armstrong, however, is one of the top 3 or 4 GT
riders in the world.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"steve robertson" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:02:22 -0600, Jay Pique
> > wrote:
> >
> >And yet we still have the most dominant army
> [military] - agreed
>
> >economy
> Please don't make me laugh. The US is an economic basket
> case right now. And it looks to be getting worse...
>
> >and bike racer
> If you mean Armstrong, he is not the best bike racer in the
> world by a long shot. Bettini, Musseuw, Ullrich,
> Vinokourov, and even Hamilton have proven to be better this
> year. Armstrong, however, is one of the top 3 or 4 GT
> riders in the world.



It's debatable whether he's the best cyclist, period, but he is
unquestionably the best GT rider.

[Benjamin Weiner]

Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:

> > Wrong, Henry. Cause and effect are reversed. Americans can get away
> > with being ignorant of foreign geography because we have the biggest
> > economy (and because the countries on our borders are not military
> > or economic threats). ...

> You really are a ****ing Dumbass.
> People aren't even informed about the war itself, or Al Qaeda, which 9/11
> showed, is somewhat of a threat. Your analysis sucks.
> These poll results have recently been in the news:
> http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/07/23_hole.html

I know all that stuff (maybe you thought I was endorsing our
ignorance?) People are dumb, or misinformed, or lazy, or misled by
their government. How does that contradict my statement? Americans
know little about the outside world because they don't have to; they
are insulated from it and can get away with their ignorance. Al Qaeda
may be a threat, but even that is abstract to most people who don't
live in New York or Washington or know someone who got killed. It
just means they have to take their shoes off at the airport X-ray
machines. I see the rest of the country driving around in their gas
guzzlers, buying on credit, and sucking down their grande lattes as if
nothing had happened.




> Some recent polls reveal 59% of Americans believe Saddam Hussein was
> involved in 9/11, and 50% believe Iraqis were among the 9/11 hijackers. 41%
> believe that WMD's have been found in Iraq, and 22% of Americans believe
> Iraq used weapons of mass destruction during the U.S. invasion

> <snip>

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Benjamin Weiner" > wrote in message
...
> Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
>
> > > Wrong, Henry. Cause and effect are reversed. Americans can get away
> > > with being ignorant of foreign geography because we have the biggest
> > > economy (and because the countries on our borders are not military
> > > or economic threats). ...
>
> > You really are a ****ing Dumbass.
> > People aren't even informed about the war itself, or Al Qaeda, which
9/11
> > showed, is somewhat of a threat. Your analysis sucks.
> > These poll results have recently been in the news:
> > http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/07/23_hole.html
>
> I know all that stuff (maybe you thought I was endorsing our
> ignorance?) People are dumb, or misinformed, or lazy, or misled by
> their government. How does that contradict my statement? Americans
> know little about the outside world because they don't have to; they
> are insulated from it and can get away with their ignorance. Al Qaeda
> may be a threat, but even that is abstract to most people who don't
> live in New York or Washington or know someone who got killed. It
> just means they have to take their shoes off at the airport X-ray
> machines. I see the rest of the country driving around in their gas
> guzzlers, buying on credit, and sucking down their grande lattes as if
> nothing had happened.



Dumbass -

Ignorance leads to faulty conclusions which leads to faulty action.

There is a Pax Americana afoot now, but it will be a short-lived empire
indeed without a well-chosen, wise and thoughtful path.

[steve robertson]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:44:09 GMT, "Kurgan Gringioni"
> wrote:

>
>It's debatable whether he's the best cyclist, period, but he is
>unquestionably the best GT rider.
>

Armstrong has only won one GT. You may think that the Tour
is the most important race, but the Vuelta and the Giro are
very hard. In fact they (especially the Vuelta) are
probably less dependent on the team and more on the rider.

Armstrong has not won either, and has not even contested the
Giro (and the Vuelta only once). Ullrich has contested all
three, and has won two of them so far.

"...unquestionably"? Perhaps you are letting your
nationalistic fantasies overwhelm your common sense.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"steve robertson" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:44:09 GMT, "Kurgan Gringioni"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >It's debatable whether he's the best cyclist, period, but he is
> >unquestionably the best GT rider.
> >
>
> Armstrong has only won one GT. You may think that the Tour
> is the most important race, but the Vuelta and the Giro are
> very hard. In fact they (especially the Vuelta) are
> probably less dependent on the team and more on the rider.
>
> Armstrong has not won either, and has not even contested the
> Giro (and the Vuelta only once). Ullrich has contested all
> three, and has won two of them so far.
>
> "...unquestionably"? Perhaps you are letting your
> nationalistic fantasies overwhelm your common sense.



Dumbass -

The Tour is the hardest one to win.

[Benjamin Weiner]

Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:

> > Americans
> > know little about the outside world because they don't have to; they
> > are insulated from it and can get away with their ignorance.

> Dumbass -
> Ignorance leads to faulty conclusions which leads to faulty action.
> There is a Pax Americana afoot now, but it will be a short-lived empire
> indeed without a well-chosen, wise and thoughtful path.

I agree with this. You are talking about facts: Americans are, on
average, ignorant of foreign affairs. I am talking about the
mechanism: why Americans are ignorant (because they suffer little
harmful consequence from it, _in the short term_, so have no incentive
to learn. Hey, it's a free market in ignorance!) Ignorance is not
the same as arrogance (often it grows out of naivete) but it allows
the knowledgeable but arrogant among us to dream of their Pax
Americana. They should reread "The Best and the Brightest" maybe.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Benjamin Weiner" > wrote in message
...
> Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
>
> > > Americans
> > > know little about the outside world because they don't have to; they
> > > are insulated from it and can get away with their ignorance.
>
> > Dumbass -
> > Ignorance leads to faulty conclusions which leads to faulty action.
> > There is a Pax Americana afoot now, but it will be a short-lived empire
> > indeed without a well-chosen, wise and thoughtful path.
>
> I agree with this. You are talking about facts: Americans are, on
> average, ignorant of foreign affairs.



Dumbass -

If someone doesn't know where the Pacific Ocean is, how the hell are they
supposed to *not* be ignorant of foreign affairs?

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Benjamin Weiner" > wrote in message
...
> Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
> > "Jay Pique" > wrote in message
>
> > > >"Benjamin Werner" > wrote in message
>
> > > >> Hum, I am afraid you are confirming the cliches about americans'
> > > >> weak knowledge of foreign geography.
>
> > > >Don't even get into foreign - Americans have weak knowledge of
domestic
> > > >geography.
>
> > > And yet we still have the most dominant army, economy and bike racer
> > > in the world. Strange.
>
> > You Dumbass -
> > Those are unrelated.
>
> Wrong, Henry. Cause and effect are reversed. Americans can get away
> with being ignorant of foreign geography because we have the biggest
> economy





A substantial portion of our fellow citizens don't know where the Pacific
Ocean is because we have the biggest economy?

You are a dumbass. It's cultural. I'll bet the level of knowledge wasn't any
better before we were a superpower.