Why don't Bianchi and Telekom ride for their stars?

[Sven Mischkies]

Jan needs every second he can get - so wouldn't it be sensible for his
team to try to let flat stages end in mass sprints?

Erik needs every point he can get for the green jersey, even if he says
he doesn't care about it - so wouldn't it be sensible for his team to
try to let flat stages end in mass sprints?

Both teams have nothing to lose anymore. Bianchi anyway, Telekom's
Vinokurov should be save as third, too.

So can anyone here explain why these teams do nothing?


Ciao,
SM
--
The Sunday Times about 'The Two Towers':
'The darkness of this film comes not just from the hideous collection of
creatures - orcs, Uruk-hai, wargs and Liv Tyler...'

[trg]

True you can make up points and seconds in mass sprints, but you can also
lose them. And if your team does all the work, then you weaken yourself when
it comes time to sprint against your opponents. There's a good chance you
could end up hurting rather than helping your cause.


"Sven Mischkies" > a écrit dans le message news:
...
> Jan needs every second he can get - so wouldn't it be sensible for his
> team to try to let flat stages end in mass sprints?
>
> Erik needs every point he can get for the green jersey, even if he says
> he doesn't care about it - so wouldn't it be sensible for his team to
> try to let flat stages end in mass sprints?
>
> Both teams have nothing to lose anymore. Bianchi anyway, Telekom's
> Vinokurov should be save as third, too.
>
> So can anyone here explain why these teams do nothing?
>
>
> Ciao,
> SM
> --
> The Sunday Times about 'The Two Towers':
> 'The darkness of this film comes not just from the hideous collection of
> creatures - orcs, Uruk-hai, wargs and Liv Tyler...'

[trg]

Of course they have something to lose- points and seconds. They obviously
feel they'd rather put their money on the TT and last stage, rather then
weaken their teams by controlling the break and have less energy to lead out
their stars in the bunch sprint. Remember, it would be Zabel against a fresh
McGee and Cook, or McEwen and his leadout. Or Ullrich against
Hincapie/Eki/Armstrong.

"Sven Mischkies" > a écrit dans le message news:
. ..
> trg > wrote:
>
> > True you can make up points and seconds in mass sprints, but you can
also
> > lose them. And if your team does all the work, then you weaken yourself
when
> > it comes time to sprint against your opponents. There's a good chance
you
> > could end up hurting rather than helping your cause.
>
>
> Jan has nothing to lose and Erik, too. And both do not need help of
> their team in sprints - they need the help only to get there.
>
>
> Ciao,
> SM
> --
> The Sunday Times about 'The Two Towers':
> 'The darkness of this film comes not just from the hideous collection of
> creatures - orcs, Uruk-hai, wargs and Liv Tyler...'

[trg]

You also have to consider that what is important is the relative differences
between the riders, not their absolute totals. So if Zabel comes across the
line 10th and Cooke 11th, it might be the same gain as if Zabel were 3nd and
Cooke 4th (depending on the actual bonifications given for the various
times). So again, why tire out your team when you can get the same result
without losing energy compared to your opponents?

"Sven Mischkies" > a écrit dans le message news:
. ..
> trg > wrote:
>
> > True you can make up points and seconds in mass sprints, but you can
also
> > lose them. And if your team does all the work, then you weaken yourself
when
> > it comes time to sprint against your opponents. There's a good chance
you
> > could end up hurting rather than helping your cause.
>
>
> Jan has nothing to lose and Erik, too. And both do not need help of
> their team in sprints - they need the help only to get there.
>
>
> Ciao,
> SM
> --
> The Sunday Times about 'The Two Towers':
> 'The darkness of this film comes not just from the hideous collection of
> creatures - orcs, Uruk-hai, wargs and Liv Tyler...'

[Gerrit Stolte]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:14:48 +0200, (Sven
Mischkies) wrote:

>Jan needs every second he can get - so wouldn't it be sensible for his
>team to try to let flat stages end in mass sprints?

After getting two seconds closer to Lance in the first intermediate
sprint, Lance wouldn't have allowed him to take more in the 2nd one. As
for sprinting for stage victories? The top sprinters would make minced
meat of Ullrich, who would only risk a crash without a chance of gaining
a single second.

>Erik needs every point he can get for the green jersey, even if he says
>he doesn't care about it - so wouldn't it be sensible for his team to
>try to let flat stages end in mass sprints?

Errr. Wether or not they end in mass sprints, Zabel obviously hasn't the
final speed to beat his opponents for the jersey.

Gerrit

[JTN]

because they dont have any.....

they do have a couple of guys that are also rans though....maybe if they win
a stage they could get more publicity.....

[Gerrit Stolte]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 08:47:43 -0600, "JTN" >
wrote:

>because they dont have any.....
>
>they do have a couple of guys that are also rans though....maybe if they win
>a stage they could get more publicity.....

How could Bianchi get more publicity? I mean, they have won more
publicity than they could've dreamed for. Before the TdF, nobody knew
wether Ullrich would be competitive. Now, the sponsors are lining up,
bringing the team and Ullrich in a very good position to start building
a new team.

Gerrit

[Sven Mischkies]

Gerrit Stolte > wrote:

> After getting two seconds closer to Lance in the first intermediate
> sprint, Lance wouldn't have allowed him to take more in the 2nd one.


Do you think they _allowed_ him those two seconds? Why should they do
that? If they were not able to stop them this time maybe he could have
slipped away on other occasions, too?


> As
> for sprinting for stage victories? The top sprinters would make minced
> meat of Ullrich, who would only risk a crash without a chance of gaining
> a single second.


I know that it is very unlikely and somewhat risky. But I do not think
that it is unlikelier than winning the ITT by more than 1:04.


> >Erik needs every point he can get for the green jersey, even if he says
> >he doesn't care about it - so wouldn't it be sensible for his team to
> >try to let flat stages end in mass sprints?
>
> Errr. Wether or not they end in mass sprints, Zabel obviously hasn't the
> final speed to beat his opponents for the jersey.


Well, he beat Cooke yesterday and today. If he sprinted in all sprints
he could be in green already.


Ciao,
SM
--
The Sunday Times about 'The Two Towers':
'The darkness of this film comes not just from the hideous collection of
creatures - orcs, Uruk-hai, wargs and Liv Tyler...'

[Gerrit Stolte]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:27:19 +0200, (Sven
Mischkies) wrote:

>Gerrit Stolte > wrote:
>
>> After getting two seconds closer to Lance in the first intermediate
>> sprint, Lance wouldn't have allowed him to take more in the 2nd one.
>
>
>Do you think they _allowed_ him those two seconds?

He toook them by surprise. Nobody expected him to chase down for those
seconds. This won't happen anymore.

>Why should they do
>that? If they were not able to stop them this time maybe he could have
>slipped away on other occasions, too?

Are you only following the TdF when Ullrich is successful? What you are
talking about is pure speculation. Ullrich couldn't win more, because he
wasn't following the group. Had he done so, there would have been no
breakaway, as USPS would have closed the gap *very* fast.

>> As
>> for sprinting for stage victories? The top sprinters would make minced
>> meat of Ullrich, who would only risk a crash without a chance of gaining
>> a single second.
>
>
>I know that it is very unlikely and somewhat risky. But I do not think
>that it is unlikelier than winning the ITT by more than 1:04.

>Well, he beat Cooke yesterday and today. If he sprinted in all sprints
>he could be in green already.

If he sprints in all sprints, Cooke et al. would also do. None of them
has participated in all sprints. As was clear in today's and yesterday's
finish, Zabel doesn't have enough final speed.

[Sven Mischkies]

Gerrit Stolte > wrote:

> >Why should they do
> >that? If they were not able to stop them this time maybe he could have
> >slipped away on other occasions, too?
>
> Are you only following the TdF when Ullrich is successful? What you are
> talking about is pure speculation. Ullrich couldn't win more, because he
> wasn't following the group. Had he done so, there would have been no
> breakaway, as USPS would have closed the gap *very* fast.


Not slipping away on a break - that's impossible, of course, except
maybe VERY close to the end of a stage (of course USPS would have to be
caught sleeping, but hey - nothing is impossible ;)), but slipping away
to gain a few sprint points and seconds.


Ciao,
SM
--
The Sunday Times about 'The Two Towers':
'The darkness of this film comes not just from the hideous collection of
creatures - orcs, Uruk-hai, wargs and Liv Tyler...'

[trg]

I heard an interview with the DS of Bianchi. He said that the sprint wasn't
planned this morning, but when Ullrich saw that Cooke wasn't involved, he
went for it. Caught Lance napping a bit. More of a head game than a real
influence on the outcome; IMO.


"Sven Mischkies" > a écrit dans le message de
news:1fyo6t8.1ho8usztkbnl0N%sven.mischkies@hamburg .de...
> Gerrit Stolte > wrote:
>
> > >Why should they do
> > >that? If they were not able to stop them this time maybe he could have
> > >slipped away on other occasions, too?
> >
> > Are you only following the TdF when Ullrich is successful? What you are
> > talking about is pure speculation. Ullrich couldn't win more, because he
> > wasn't following the group. Had he done so, there would have been no
> > breakaway, as USPS would have closed the gap *very* fast.
>
>
> Not slipping away on a break - that's impossible, of course, except
> maybe VERY close to the end of a stage (of course USPS would have to be
> caught sleeping, but hey - nothing is impossible ;)), but slipping away
> to gain a few sprint points and seconds.
>
>
> Ciao,
> SM
> --
> The Sunday Times about 'The Two Towers':
> 'The darkness of this film comes not just from the hideous collection of
> creatures - orcs, Uruk-hai, wargs and Liv Tyler...'


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[Carl Sundquist]

"Sven Mischkies" > wrote in message
>
> (of course USPS would have to be
> caught sleeping, but hey - nothing is impossible ;)


True.

It happened in the 2000 Oly road race.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sven Mischkies" > wrote in message
> >
> > (of course USPS would have to be
> > caught sleeping, but hey - nothing is impossible ;)
>
>
> True.
>
> It happened in the 2000 Oly road race.



This is different. They only have to watch one guy.

[Carl Sundquist]

"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message et...
>
> "Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Sven Mischkies" > wrote in message
> > >
> > > (of course USPS would have to be
> > > caught sleeping, but hey - nothing is impossible ;)
> >
> >
> > True.
> >
> > It happened in the 2000 Oly road race.
>
>
>
> This is different. They only have to watch one guy.
>
>

In the Olys', the USA riders didn't even know there was a break up the road.

[Carl Sundquist]

> > > > (of course USPS would have to be
> > > > caught sleeping, but hey - nothing is impossible ;)
> > >
> > >
> > > True.
> > >
> > > It happened in the 2000 Oly road race.
> >
> >
> >
> > This is different. They only have to watch one guy.
> >
> >
>
> In the Olys', the USA riders didn't even know there was a break up the
road.
>
>

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