Strategy in TDF and why some thing it's boring...

[Sticket N. Yorhass]

"brianb" > wrote in message m...
> Well the other day I said that LA should have tried to gain time on LU
> by going with Hamilton, and that it was dangerous to try to sit on a
> one minute lead. Of course I was roundly condemned, with one poster
> even calling me a troll!
>

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[Patrick]

> > Well the other day I said that LA should have tried to gain time on LU
> > by going with Hamilton, and that it was dangerous to try to sit on a
> > one minute lead. Of course I was roundly condemned, with one poster
> > even calling me a troll!



Whenever I try to relate cycle racing to my non-cycling friend I
run into this same thing over and over. They want to see MORE CRASHES
!! and the only thing anyone's interested in is the YELLOW JERSEY !!!
While I don't think that the post, although slightly ignorrant,
deserves all the flamage that it's getting -- It is important to
remember that there's more to the TDF than Lance and Lars.....er...I
mean Jan. The fact that Robbie got the green back and the fact that
ERIC is going to get it anyway.....heh heh....is much MORE EXCITING at
this stage in the race than a couple seconds here and there in the GC.

In CLOSING....CRASHING IS NOT GOOD !!! IT ****ING SUCKS TO CRASH !!!
the end

[Ingemar Svensson]

(brianb) wrote in message >...
> Well the other day I said that LA should have tried to gain time on LU
> by going with Hamilton, and that it was dangerous to try to sit on a
> one minute lead. Of course I was roundly condemned, with one poster
> even calling me a troll!
>
> I don't know much about cycling, obviously. But it seems for most of
> the time, there's no benefit to try to gain on your competition. Most
> days nothing happens. I think this is b/c of the wind advantage
> offered by the peloton. To escape you have to break away, do all the
> work yourself, and then be able to hold that position until the end.
>
> As a result of this, there's really very little "racing". The only
> real racing is in ITT, TTT, and in stages that end in a climb (where
> wind resistance is of little advantage b/c of slow speeds).
>
> So you have days like today, where LU and LA are in the peloton behind
> the breakaway team which is 20 minutes ahead. Why don't LA and LU
> follow them and try to gain time on each other. Make a "race" of it,
> so to speak.

They both know that they won't have a chance to get away from the
peloton on the flat stages. In fact the only reason Hamilton managed
to hold on until the finish was because the only riders who where
initially threatened by Hamilton on GC was Basso, Mayo and Zubeldia.
Basso only had Brushegin to help him in the group and the Euskaltel
riders aren't strong enough to take any time on Hamilton on the flats
and downhills. And when they started taking in time on him on the last
climb, Mayo gets a puncture and the chase came to a halt. By the time
the peloton started working together for real, Hamilton already had
the time he needed to stay away until the end. If Armstrong had
followed him there would have been alot more riders helping to get
them back earlier so there would have been no breakaway.


> "No, no, no! you idiot!, they should stay with the peloton...don't
> waste energy trying to gain advantage!".
>
> OK, then, that's why people don't quite get cycling. Most of the time
> they're not really racing, just going for a ride in the country. A
> fast ride, a long ride, at speeds I couldn't do (obviously), but
> they're not really "racing" per se. The real racing is done in only a
> few stages at only a few times.

No way that you could keep up with the peloton on any stage of the
tour regardless of how flat it is. You need the experience of knowing
how to keep someones wheel and how to sit in a peloton to have any
chance whatsoever. Even a lot of cycling pros riding for the first
time at a the level of the tour have trouble staying in the peloton
before they get used to the high pace.

[Raptor]

brianb wrote:
> Well the other day I said that LA should have tried to gain time on LU
> by going with Hamilton, and that it was dangerous to try to sit on a
> one minute lead. Of course I was roundly condemned, with one poster
> even calling me a troll!
>
> I don't know much about cycling, obviously. But it seems for most of
> the time, there's no benefit to try to gain on your competition. Most
> days nothing happens. I think this is b/c of the wind advantage
> offered by the peloton. To escape you have to break away, do all the
> work yourself, and then be able to hold that position until the end.
>
> As a result of this, there's really very little "racing". The only
> real racing is in ITT, TTT, and in stages that end in a climb (where
> wind resistance is of little advantage b/c of slow speeds).
>
> So you have days like today, where LU and LA are in the peloton behind
> the breakaway team which is 20 minutes ahead. Why don't LA and LU
> follow them and try to gain time on each other. Make a "race" of it,
> so to speak.
>
> "No, no, no! you idiot!, they should stay with the peloton...don't
> waste energy trying to gain advantage!".
>
> OK, then, that's why people don't quite get cycling. Most of the time
> they're not really racing, just going for a ride in the country. A
> fast ride, a long ride, at speeds I couldn't do (obviously), but
> they're not really "racing" per se. The real racing is done in only a
> few stages at only a few times.

If Jan closes on LANCE tomorrow, you might see some "real racing" on
Sunday. Bike racing favors the patient viewer.

The Vuelta often has some neat action on flat roads due to strong
crosswinds. Teams will motor like hell to create gaps in the peloton,
and it works. If a contender is on the wrong side of the gap, they're
screwed. Last year, one or more contenders abandoned upon getting
gapped by this technique. USPS has shown a talent for this tactic.

But on the typical flat stage, the chance that such tactics will work is
on the low side. You need a wind or hills, and you need the gap to open
up right. Given the current focus on the time trial, I think teams
would rather not take the chance on blowing up their motors.

The potential for more amazing action even on the final day is large.
Tomorrow will be a nail-biter. And if the race is even closer, prepare
to be educated on Sunday. Who knows what Johann Bruyneel or Ullrich's
DS will come up with?

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

[Isidor Gunsberg]

(brianb) wrote in message >...
> (Patrick) wrote in message >...
> > > > Well the other day I said that LA should have tried to gain time on LU
> > > > by going with Hamilton, and that it was dangerous to try to sit on a
> > > > one minute lead. Of course I was roundly condemned, with one poster
> > > > even calling me a troll!
> >
> >
> >
> > Whenever I try to relate cycle racing to my non-cycling friend I
> > run into this same thing over and over. They want to see MORE CRASHES
> > !! and the only thing anyone's interested in is the YELLOW JERSEY !!!
> > While I don't think that the post, although slightly ignorrant,
> > deserves all the flamage that it's getting -- It is important to
> > remember that there's more to the TDF than Lance and Lars.....er...I
> > mean Jan. The fact that Robbie got the green back and the fact that
> > ERIC is going to get it anyway.....heh heh....is much MORE EXCITING at
> > this stage in the race than a couple seconds here and there in the GC.
> >
> > In CLOSING....CRASHING IS NOT GOOD !!! IT ****ING SUCKS TO CRASH !!!
>
> Well I would never want to see crashes. That's horrific.
>
> What are all these other jerseys? I know there's a "king of the
> mountains", but what is the green jersey, and the others? Are there
> cash prizes for those too?
>
> Why doesn't LA try to get the "king of the mountains" jersey? Since
> he's a good climber, I would think it would be a natural. Since
> there's little wind resistance on climbs, wouldn't that work out?
>
>
> > the end

Unless you happen to be Eddy Merckx, it is rather difficult to
compete for both a Podium finish, and a KoM win. Verenque could
afford to go all out on a couple of stages with many climbs. He could
grab the KoM points, and then recover during the following stages. The
KoM is about occasional peak efforts. Winning the race is about
maintaining consistency.

Example: LA might have been able to win the Luz Ardiden stage with
a breakaway earlier in the stage. However, he would have had to
spending more energy than those chasing him (including JU). That would
tell in the following stages, when JU might try to exploit this by
taking time out of Lance. Better just to grab time on the last climb,
than to burn yourself out.

[Isidor Gunsberg]

>
> Stage racing just IS a drawn-out, strategic, tactical game. So is Chess;
> most of the moves are minor, but the big moments are both anticipated and
> quite dramatic for those who understand the game. But then not so many
> people get that either... ;-)
>
> SB

I like your metaphor with chess. However, in chess, your fate is
under your own control, while in cycling some other guy can screw up
and wipe you out. Not too much people could do to avoid the mash up at
the end of stage one.

Also, I think that it is a bit misleading to call any of the moves
of a chess game "minor". Even a move of a lowly pawn can have
ramifications for the rest of the game. To be sure, some chess games
are "quieter" than others, with more suble maneuvers and positional
play.
I think the big moments in chess are often not anticipated by
anybody, including the opponent of the player who uncorks the
sacrificial combination.

[Steve Blankenship]

"Isidor Gunsberg" > wrote in message
om...
> >
> > Stage racing just IS a drawn-out, strategic, tactical game. So is
Chess;
> > most of the moves are minor, but the big moments are both anticipated
and
> > quite dramatic for those who understand the game. But then not so many
> > people get that either... ;-)
> >
> > SB
>
> I like your metaphor with chess. However, in chess, your fate is
> under your own control, while in cycling some other guy can screw up
> and wipe you out. Not too much people could do to avoid the mash up at
> the end of stage one.

Having been caught up in such personally, I couldn't agree more. Guess
one's cat could leap onto the chess board!

> Also, I think that it is a bit misleading to call any of the moves
> of a chess game "minor". Even a move of a lowly pawn can have
> ramifications for the rest of the game. To be sure, some chess games
> are "quieter" than others, with more suble maneuvers and positional
> play.

True; that word choice wasn't the best. Just meant that early in games you
have more options and each move is generally less significant than later
when it comes to the real cutting. ;-)

> I think the big moments in chess are often not anticipated by
> anybody, including the opponent of the player who uncorks the
> sacrificial combination.

Especially the unwitting opponent! I was thinking, in line with the OP from
the perspective of the observer, who ponders all the possible moves and
outcomes, much as we do while watching the Grand Tours. You anticipate what
might happen, then are either confirmed or surprised by what actually does.

[Nick Burns]

"brianb" > wrote in message
m...

> Well the other day I said that LA should have tried to gain time on LU
> by going with Hamilton, and that it was dangerous to try to sit on a
> one minute lead. Of course I was roundly condemned, with one poster
> even calling me a troll!
>

<emphasis on key point>
> I don't know much about cycling, obviously.
<snip>

Maybe you should learn more about the sport if you are truly interested.
That is the height of narcissism to think that a sport of tactic should be
changed for your entertainment. The entire podium did everything they could
within their abilities to win the Tour. If you fail to recognize that
incredible talent that each of them displayed, then the problem is with you.

[warren]

In article >, Nick Burns
> wrote:

> "brianb" > wrote in message
> m...
>
> > Well the other day I said that LA should have tried to gain time on LU
> > by going with Hamilton, and that it was dangerous to try to sit on a
> > one minute lead. Of course I was roundly condemned, with one poster
> > even calling me a troll!
> >
>
> <emphasis on key point>
> > I don't know much about cycling, obviously.
> <snip>
>
> Maybe you should learn more about the sport if you are truly interested.
> That is the height of narcissism to think that a sport of tactic should be
> changed for your entertainment. The entire podium did everything they could
> within their abilities to win the Tour. If you fail to recognize that
> incredible talent that each of them displayed, then the problem is with you.

But Lance is now saying he made a mistake in not trying to take more
time out of Ullrich on Alpe d'Huez.

-WG