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Steve
July 28th 03, 04:25 AM
Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball.
But who's the greater athlete?

MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
win, never failed in any level.

LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best cycler
ever.

Tough one, isn't it?

Personally, I think they are tied, but if LA comes back next year and
wins his 6th TdF, he'll go down is the greatest athlete of all times.

--Steve

Steven L. Sheffield
July 28th 03, 04:43 AM
On 7/27/03 9:25 PM, in article
, "Steve"
> wrote:

> Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
> strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
> me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball.
> But who's the greater athlete?
>
> MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
> win, never failed in any level.
>
> LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best cycler
> ever.


Lance is hardly the best cyclist ever.

The names Eddy Merckx, Fausto Coppi, and Bernard Hinault ring a bell at all?
How about Jacques Anquetil and Miguel Indurain?


> Tough one, isn't it?
>
> Personally, I think they are tied, but if LA comes back next year and
> wins his 6th TdF, he'll go down is the greatest athlete of all times.
>
> --Steve

lazysegall
July 28th 03, 05:11 AM
Steven L. Sheff wrote:
> On 7/27/03 9:25 PM, in article
> , "Steve"
> > wrote:
> > Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
> > strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
> > me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball. But who's the
> > greater athlete?
> >
> > MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
> > win, never failed in any level.
> >
> > LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best
> > cycler ever.
> Lance is hardly the best cyclist ever.
> The names Eddy Merckx, Fausto Coppi, and Bernard Hinault ring a bell at
> all? How about Jacques Anquetil and Miguel Indurain?
> > Tough one, isn't it?
> >
> > Personally, I think they are tied, but if LA comes back next year and
> > wins his 6th TdF, he'll go down is the greatest athlete of all times.
> >
> > --Steve



I think you could be the greatest cyclist and not the greatest athlete
ever. Indurain was not a great rider and I don;t want to hear that he
was. I also think that Cycling is differnt now. Preperation has become
so scientific that a GC rider can only realisticlly peak for a month or
two. Look at Simoni. He was in top form for the Giro and then looked
like a differnt rider. To further support that point I think that Heras
will ride a great Vuelta.



--
>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

Jiyang Chen
July 28th 03, 05:59 AM
Lance Armstrong trains a lot more than Michael Jordan. 5-7 hours on the
bike plus weight lifting on some days. Lance Armstrong relies on natural
ability as well as being one of the most dedicated athletes out there, and
Michael Jordan relies on his natural skills more than dedication. I don't
think he plays 5-7 hours of basketball everyday.
"Steve" > wrote in message
om...
> Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
> strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
> me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball.
> But who's the greater athlete?
>
> MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
> win, never failed in any level.
>
> LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best cycler
> ever.
>
> Tough one, isn't it?
>
> Personally, I think they are tied, but if LA comes back next year and
> wins his 6th TdF, he'll go down is the greatest athlete of all times.
>
> --Steve

Kurgan Gringioni
July 28th 03, 08:11 AM
"Jiyang Chen" > wrote in message
...
> Lance Armstrong trains a lot more than Michael Jordan. 5-7 hours on the
> bike plus weight lifting on some days. Lance Armstrong relies on natural
> ability as well as being one of the most dedicated athletes out there, and
> Michael Jordan relies on his natural skills more than dedication. I don't
> think he plays 5-7 hours of basketball everyday.



Jordan used to host a Sunrise fitness session (usually Pippen and one other
player) at the court at his home, then they'd eat breakfast, then go to the
United Center, then lift weights, then do the official team practice, then
lift weights after the official team practice.


That's why they won 72 games. Athletes don't reach those levels by sitting
on their ass.

Steve
July 28th 03, 10:27 AM
I disagree about training ethics.

Michael was known for his amazing work ethic, sweaty summer five on
fives, weightlifting etc. I don't believe LA has an edge in this
category.

--Steve

Basketor
July 28th 03, 11:54 AM
"Jiyang Chen" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> Lance Armstrong trains a lot more than Michael Jordan. 5-7 hours on the
> bike plus weight lifting on some days. Lance Armstrong relies on natural
> ability as well as being one of the most dedicated athletes out there, and
> Michael Jordan relies on his natural skills more than dedication. I don't
> think he plays 5-7 hours of basketball everyday.

It's not the same effort, so the training is different.
They stay 6 hours on a bike without interruption., you don't play 6 hours of
basketball.

karhu
July 28th 03, 01:59 PM
(Steve) wrote in
om:

> Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
> strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
> me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball.
> But who's the greater athlete?
>

Lance is surely a greater athlete than Michael Jordan ever was. In fact,
the only athlete greater than Lance in the history of sports is the Finnish
runner Paavo Nurmi. Lance would have to win the treble (giro-tour-vuelta)
to pass Paavo on the ranking, and i suspect that just won't happen.

Ingemar Svensson
July 28th 03, 02:06 PM
lazysegall > wrote in message >...
> Steven L. Sheff wrote:
> > On 7/27/03 9:25 PM, in article
> > , "Steve"
> > > wrote:
> > > Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
> > > strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
> > > me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball. But who's the
> > > greater athlete?
> > >
> > > MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
> > > win, never failed in any level.
> > >
> > > LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best
> > > cycler ever.
> > Lance is hardly the best cyclist ever.
> > The names Eddy Merckx, Fausto Coppi, and Bernard Hinault ring a bell at
> > all? How about Jacques Anquetil and Miguel Indurain?
> > > Tough one, isn't it?
> > >
> > > Personally, I think they are tied, but if LA comes back next year and
> > > wins his 6th TdF, he'll go down is the greatest athlete of all times.
> > >
> > > --Steve
>
>
>
> I think you could be the greatest cyclist and not the greatest athlete
> ever. Indurain was not a great rider and I don;t want to hear that he
> was. I also think that Cycling is differnt now. Preperation has become
> so scientific that a GC rider can only realistically peak for a month or
> two. Look at Simoni. He was in top form for the Giro and then looked
> like a differnt rider. To further support that point I think that Heras
> will ride a great Vuelta.

Take a look at a guy like Vinokourov, he's been in form the whole
year. He's proof that you still can race at a high level all year.
Simonis form is the result of the fact that he hasn't raced between
the Giro and the Tour, that was his mistake, he didn't prepare enough
for the tour.

I my opimion Armstrong is way too single minded to ever reach the
highest ranks of cyclists. He's always going to be one step behind
even if he wins his 6th tour. All the others in the 5-tour club have
also won the Giro, Armstrong hasn't even tried.

Sam
July 28th 03, 02:56 PM
"bigfloppyllama" > wrote in message
...
> Jiyang Chen wrote:
> > Lance Armstrong trains a lot more than Michael Jordan. 5-7 hours on
the
> > bike plus weight lifting on some days. Lance Armstrong relies on
> > natural ability as well as being one of the most dedicated athletes
out
> > there, and Michael Jordan relies on his natural skills more than
> > dedication. I don't think he plays 5-7 hours of basketball everyday.
> > "Steve" > wrote in message
news:827053f0.03072-
> >
7271925.3434e9bd@pos-
> > ting.google.com...
> > > Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
> > > strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
> > > me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball. But who's the
> > > greater athlete?
> > >
> > > MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
> > > win, never failed in any level.
> > >
> > > LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best
> > > cycler ever.
> > >
> > > Tough one, isn't it?
> > >
> > > Personally, I think they are tied, but if LA comes back next year
and
> > > wins his 6th TdF, he'll go down is the greatest athlete of all
times.
> > >
> > > --Steve
>
>
> And we mustn't forget Michael's little baseball stint. They are both
> amazing athletes in their own right, and I say we leave it at that.

Actually I would argue that MJ's attempt at baseball works against
him. He was awful.


>
>
>
> --
> >--------------------------<
> Posted via cyclingforums.com
> http://www.cyclingforums.com

NS>
July 28th 03, 03:21 PM
Who is stronger Superman or Hercules? Did Superman do Wonder Woman? Was
Batman really gay when he turned down a chance to be with Catwoman?
These questions are really baseless and need not even be considered. If
you are the absolute best athlete you can be (to yourself) then you
wouldn't have time to ponder useless inconsequential questions. Heck, we
probably shouldn't be on the NG. I think I'll go workout.


BTW... MJ made more money last year from NIKE than all of the Malaysian
NIKE workers (that build the shoes) combined yearly gross income. So
that doesn't necessarily make MJ a bad guy but it shows that people who
make the shoes lives don't matter to NIKE and are only cared for by
their immediate families. I've seen LA's Nike ad... It's a little
disconcerting given the previous statement I made. Do they even make a
cycling shoe worth it weight? I'm not sure I'd buy it if there
is/was...considering...

imho,
NS>

Robert Chambers
July 28th 03, 04:26 PM
This is a pointless discussion. Can't compare apples and oranges.

Our church is studying Psalm 23 and yesterday morning they opened the study
showing some video clips of Michael Jordan. Unbelieveable artistry in
motion. I lived in Chicago during the Jordan era and never missed a
televised game.

I'm as big a Lance fan as anyone, and I'm as avid a cyclist as anyone. But
cycling doesn't require the artistry that someone like Michael can bring to
a game like Basketball. Michael couldn't hang with Lance for 5 seconds on a
bike. Lance couldn't hang with Mr. Hang Time on the B-ball court.

But if I were stuck on a deserted island and had to choose between a video
of Michael and a video of Lance to watch for the rest of my life, I'd pick
Michael.

Bob C.
"Steve" > wrote in message
om...
> Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
> strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
> me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball.
> But who's the greater athlete?
>
> MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
> win, never failed in any level.
>
> LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best cycler
> ever.
>
> Tough one, isn't it?
>
> Personally, I think they are tied, but if LA comes back next year and
> wins his 6th TdF, he'll go down is the greatest athlete of all times.
>
> --Steve

Robert Chambers
July 28th 03, 04:28 PM
MJ coasted on his natural talent?????!!!!!

You're out of your mind. You obviously don't know a thing about Michael
Jordan. The one thing that set him apart from all his teammates and made
him very hard for them to get along with was that he was so intense, hard
working and demanding. Sounds EXACLY like everything I've heard about
Lance. Work ethic is definately common ground between the two men.

Bob C.
> wrote in message
...
> >MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
> >win, never failed in any level.
> >
> >LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best cycler
> >ever.
> >
> >Tough one, isn't it?
>
>
> No, easy.
>
> MJ coasted on his natural talent. Like Mario Lemieux and Gretzky.
>
> LA trained his ass off. No comparison. You can't win a tour by
> coasting on your talent. You have to train and train hard and smart.

Charlie C.
July 28th 03, 04:41 PM
"Robert Chambers" > wrote in
:


>
> But if I were stuck on a deserted island and had to choose between a
> video of Michael and a video of Lance to watch for the rest of my life,
> I'd pick Michael.
>
Personally I'd pick Mia (but not because of her great athletic abilities -
good as they are!)

Jonathan v.d. Sluis
July 28th 03, 05:24 PM
David N. Welton > schreef in berichtnieuws
...
> (Ingemar Svensson) writes:
>
> > Take a look at a guy like Vinokourov, he's been in form the whole
> > year. He's proof that you still can race at a high level all year.
>
> > Simonis form is the result of the fact that he hasn't raced between
> > the Giro and the Tour, that was his mistake, he didn't prepare
> > enough for the tour.
>
> Maybe he was tired from the Giro?

In spite of the fact that he was in much worse shape than he was in the
giro, he did manage to win a stage by using his brains and pure
perseverence. It was not easy to beat the Dufaux/Virenque tandem. His
victory in the giro seemed much more convincing anyway: Armstrong was
nowhere near as dominant in France as Simoni was in Italy. Simoni never
needed luck or a good TTT; he just outclassed the whole field in nearly
every mountain stage.

But even more astounding were the performances by Vinokourov and Tyler
Hamilton, who already won more than enough to justify their current
contracts. Vinokourov should be cyclist of the year, especially if he rides
a good Vuelta.

Armstrongs main accomplishment was that he was able to overcome his own
problems. However, given the fact that he only really trains for the tour,
that slim margin on relatively unprepared riders like Ullrich and Vinokourov
should have him worrying indeed, or perhaps wonder if he would not do just
as well if he'd also concentrate on other races. All that preparation for
just 15 seconds on Ullrich and 18 on Vinokourov, and then hoping for a good
day (which, thankfully for Armstrong, came promptly)? It's really a shame
when you look at what the other two did before the tour - deal with a
collapsing team and win races, respectively. I think Bruyneel's fool-proof
program has collapsed this year.

Jonathan.

Java Man (Espressopithecus)
July 28th 03, 06:03 PM
In article >, says...
> MJ coasted on his natural talent?????!!!!!
>
> You're out of your mind. You obviously don't know a thing about Michael
> Jordan. The one thing that set him apart from all his teammates and made
> him very hard for them to get along with was that he was so intense, hard
> working and demanding. Sounds EXACLY like everything I've heard about
> Lance. Work ethic is definately common ground between the two men.
>
The previous poster is an uninformed lightweight. No athlete as
dominating as MJ, LA, Gretzky or Lemieux "coasts" on their talent. He
is displaying his ignorance of what it takes to get to the top of any
professional sport.

Rick

Gregory Kinney
July 28th 03, 06:22 PM
You guys are all way off. MJ was as dedicated to his basketball skills
and practice than proabably anyone ever has been in the game. Sure he
had natual ability like no other, but there is no way he would have
become the star he was without incrdedibly hard work and dedication.
Same is true of LA. There is little doubt he has a natual ability that
few others have. But he had the rare combination (like MJ) of ability,
drive, and dedication that few others EVER have, in any sport (i.e
(recent athletes) Tiger Woods, Andre Aggassi, Bjorn Borg, Nolan Ryan, etc)

To say MJ releis on his natural skils more than dedication is a
ridiculous, myopic, and just plain stupid statement.


Basketor wrote:

>"Jiyang Chen" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
>
>
>>Lance Armstrong trains a lot more than Michael Jordan. 5-7 hours on the
>>bike plus weight lifting on some days. Lance Armstrong relies on natural
>>ability as well as being one of the most dedicated athletes out there, and
>>Michael Jordan relies on his natural skills more than dedication. I don't
>>think he plays 5-7 hours of basketball everyday.
>>
>>
>
>It's not the same effort, so the training is different.
>They stay 6 hours on a bike without interruption., you don't play 6 hours of
>basketball.
>
How do you know? Were you an the Bulls? Did you live with MJ?
I am sure that they trained, physically, strategy, as well as
scrimmaged, routinely 6 hrs a day, on non game days.

Bung Tater
July 28th 03, 06:54 PM
"Steven L. Sheffield" > wrote in message >...
> On 7/27/03 9:25 PM, in article
> , "Steve"
> > wrote:
>
> > Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
> > strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
> > me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball.
> > But who's the greater athlete?
> >
> > MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
> > win, never failed in any level.
> >
> > LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best cycler
> > ever.
>
>
> Lance is hardly the best cyclist ever.

When he wins the 6th straight Tour next year, he will be.

>
> The names Eddy Merckx, Fausto Coppi, and Bernard Hinault ring a bell at all?
> How about Jacques Anquetil and Miguel Indurain?
>

How many of them came back from a near-death experience w/ball cancer? Hmmmmm?

BT

Java Man (Espressopithecus)
July 28th 03, 07:05 PM
In article >, says...
> I know Lemieux coasted. He rarely tried in practice and that led to
> alot of tension between he and his coaches. How do you tell the best
> player in the league to try harder.

You don't suppose his illness and his back problems had anything to do
with not attending practices, do you?

Rick

Nev Shea
July 28th 03, 07:50 PM
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" > wrote in
:


> Armstrong was
> nowhere near as dominant in France as Simoni was in Italy. Simoni
> never needed luck or a good TTT; he just outclassed the whole field in
> nearly every mountain stage.

I see. You are far more impressed by Simoni winning big against weaker
competition than you are by Armstrong's win on the biggest showcase in the
world. How big do you think Simoni's winning margin would have been if he
was racing against Ullrich, Armstrong, Beloki, Hamilton, Vino, Euskatel . .
.. .

NS

Stephen Ferguson
July 28th 03, 09:48 PM
Michael Jordan you say? You aren't seriously comparing the five time winner
of
the World's greatest sporting event with some participant in an obscure
colloquial
American sport are you?

F.

Wayne Menzie
July 28th 03, 09:55 PM
"Stephen Ferguson" > wrote in
:

> Michael Jordan you say? You aren't seriously comparing the five
> time winner of the World's greatest sporting event with some
> participant in an obscure colloquial American sport are you?

I'm certainly not one to defend Michael Jordan so don't
misconstrue this but if you want to bash an American sport as
obscure and colloquial, there are much better targets than
basketball. In fact, given the globalization of basketball, I'd
say that you picked the worst possible target. Try picking football
or baseball next time. :)

--
Wayne Menzie

Kurgan Gringioni
July 28th 03, 10:05 PM
"Wayne Menzie" > wrote in message
...
> "Stephen Ferguson" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Michael Jordan you say? You aren't seriously comparing the five
> > time winner of the World's greatest sporting event with some
> > participant in an obscure colloquial American sport are you?
>
> I'm certainly not one to defend Michael Jordan so don't
> misconstrue this but if you want to bash an American sport as
> obscure and colloquial, there are much better targets than
> basketball. In fact, given the globalization of basketball, I'd
> say that you picked the worst possible target. Try picking football
> or baseball next time. :)



Stephen's not the most observant.

TritonRider
July 28th 03, 10:25 PM
>From: "Sam"

>And we mustn't forget Michael's little baseball stint. They are both
>> amazing athletes in their own right, and I say we leave it at that.
>
> Actually I would argue that MJ's attempt at baseball works against
>him. He was awful.


They weere actually talking about this yesterday on Tim McCarvers baseball
show. He had Hall of Famer Bob Gibson on and they were discussing Gibson's
basketball career, including his time playing with the Globetrotters. Gibson
was saying that he was actually better at Basketball, and liked it more, but
the money was in baseball.
Pretty amazing guy.
Bill C

lazysegall
July 28th 03, 10:26 PM
Ingemar Svensso wrote:
> lazysegall > wrote in message
> >...
> > Steven L. Sheff wrote:
> > > On 7/27/03 9:25 PM, in article
> > > , "Steve"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the
> > > > mental strength and the superiority in his sport is really
> > > > amazing. Reminds me of Michael when he had total control of
> > > > Basketball. But who's the greater athlete?
> > > >
> > > > MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way
> > > > to win, never failed in any level.
> > > >
> > > > LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best
> > > > cycler ever.
> > > Lance is hardly the best cyclist ever. The names Eddy Merckx,
> > > Fausto Coppi, and Bernard Hinault ring a bell at all? How about
> > > Jacques Anquetil and Miguel Indurain?
> > > > Tough one, isn't it?
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I think they are tied, but if LA comes back next
> > > > year and wins his 6th TdF, he'll go down is the greatest athlete
> > > > of all times.
> > > >
> > > > --Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > I think you could be the greatest cyclist and not the greatest athlete
> > ever. Indurain was not a great rider and I don;t want to hear that he
> > was. I also think that Cycling is differnt now. Preperation has become
> > so scientific that a GC rider can only realistically peak for a month
> > or two. Look at Simoni. He was in top form for the Giro and then
> > looked like a differnt rider. To further support that point I think
> > that Heras will ride a great Vuelta.
> Take a look at a guy like Vinokourov, he's been in form the whole year.
> He's proof that you still can race at a high level all year. Simonis
> form is the result of the fact that he hasn't raced between the Giro and
> the Tour, that was his mistake, he didn't prepare enough for the tour.
> I my opimion Armstrong is way too single minded to ever reach the
> highest ranks of cyclists. He's always going to be one step behind even
> if he wins his 6th tour. All the others in the 5-tour club have also won
> the Giro, Armstrong hasn't even tried.



Vino raced at a high level, but he also cracked in the mountains one
day. If you crack one day in the tour now you will not win. Until
someone races the whole season and wins the tour my point stands...You
could argue pantani though.



--
>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

Gregory Kinney
July 28th 03, 11:30 PM
Colloquial?

1 : of or relating to conversation : CONVERSATIONAL
2 a : used in or characteristic of familiar and informal conversation;
also : unacceptably informal b : using conversational style

Look. Just because the UK roundly sucks in this sport, there is no
reason for inaccuracies and misstatements.

Stephen Ferguson wrote:

>Michael Jordan you say? You aren't seriously comparing the five time winner
>of
>the World's greatest sporting event with some participant in an obscure
>colloquial
>American sport are you?
>
>F.
>
>
>
>

Stephen Ferguson
July 28th 03, 11:57 PM
Sorry chaps, my mistake obviously. Who are the basketball World
Champions then? :)

F.

> > Michael Jordan you say? You aren't seriously comparing the five
> > time winner of the World's greatest sporting event with some
> > participant in an obscure colloquial American sport are you?
>
> I'm certainly not one to defend Michael Jordan so don't
> misconstrue this but if you want to bash an American sport as
> obscure and colloquial, there are much better targets than
> basketball. In fact, given the globalization of basketball, I'd
> say that you picked the worst possible target. Try picking football
> or baseball next time. :)
>

Daniel S. Lieb
July 29th 03, 12:15 AM
I wear Nike Poggio's that I bought two years ago. They are the best cycling
shoes I have ever worn. (I was a Sidi man for year). They are unbelievably
stiff - the soles are made out of Trek's OCLV carbon fiber and the shoe is
so darn light, it is amazing. Highly Recommend.

Oh the best thing about them - they are made in Italy and not by Nike. They
just say Nike on them.

Dan


"NS>" wrote:

> Who is stronger Superman or Hercules? Did Superman do Wonder Woman? Was
> Batman really gay when he turned down a chance to be with Catwoman?
> These questions are really baseless and need not even be considered. If
> you are the absolute best athlete you can be (to yourself) then you
> wouldn't have time to ponder useless inconsequential questions. Heck, we
> probably shouldn't be on the NG. I think I'll go workout.
>
> BTW... MJ made more money last year from NIKE than all of the Malaysian
> NIKE workers (that build the shoes) combined yearly gross income. So
> that doesn't necessarily make MJ a bad guy but it shows that people who
> make the shoes lives don't matter to NIKE and are only cared for by
> their immediate families. I've seen LA's Nike ad... It's a little
> disconcerting given the previous statement I made. Do they even make a
> cycling shoe worth it weight? I'm not sure I'd buy it if there
> is/was...considering...
>
> imho,
> NS>

Isidor Gunsberg
July 29th 03, 01:53 AM
(Ingemar Svensson) wrote in message >...
> lazysegall > wrote in message >...
> > Steven L. Sheff wrote:
> > > On 7/27/03 9:25 PM, in article
> > > , "Steve"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
> > > > strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
> > > > me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball. But who's the
> > > > greater athlete?
> > > >
> > > > MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
> > > > win, never failed in any level.
> > > >
> > > > LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best
> > > > cycler ever.
> > > Lance is hardly the best cyclist ever.
> > > The names Eddy Merckx, Fausto Coppi, and Bernard Hinault ring a bell at
> > > all? How about Jacques Anquetil and Miguel Indurain?
> > > > Tough one, isn't it?
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I think they are tied, but if LA comes back next year and
> > > > wins his 6th TdF, he'll go down is the greatest athlete of all times.
> > > >
> > > > --Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > I think you could be the greatest cyclist and not the greatest athlete
> > ever. Indurain was not a great rider and I don;t want to hear that he
> > was. I also think that Cycling is differnt now. Preperation has become
> > so scientific that a GC rider can only realistically peak for a month or
> > two. Look at Simoni. He was in top form for the Giro and then looked
> > like a differnt rider. To further support that point I think that Heras
> > will ride a great Vuelta.
>
> Take a look at a guy like Vinokourov, he's been in form the whole
> year. He's proof that you still can race at a high level all year.
> Simonis form is the result of the fact that he hasn't raced between
> the Giro and the Tour, that was his mistake, he didn't prepare enough
> for the tour.
>
> I my opimion Armstrong is way too single minded to ever reach the
> highest ranks of cyclists. He's always going to be one step behind
> even if he wins his 6th tour. All the others in the 5-tour club have
> also won the Giro, Armstrong hasn't even tried.

I agree with this. It will harm Lance's legacy if he doesn't
pull down a win in the Giro and/or the Vuelta. Even if Lance wins a
6th straight TdF, he'll still only have won a Grand Total of 6 "Grand
Tours". Merckx won 5 TdFs, 5 Giros, and a Vuelta= 11 Grand Tours.
Armstrong ought to at least try to race one of the other Grand tours.
If not, then even with 6 straight wins, I'd rate him no higher
than Anquetil, Hinault, or Indurain, and still below Merckx.

Keith
July 29th 03, 01:59 AM
>> I my opimion Armstrong is way too single minded to ever reach the
>> highest ranks of cyclists. He's always going to be one step behind
>> even if he wins his 6th tour. All the others in the 5-tour club have
>> also won the Giro, Armstrong hasn't even tried.
>
> I agree with this. It will harm Lance's legacy if he doesn't
>pull down a win in the Giro and/or the Vuelta.

Well then I guess it's harmed for good as he hasn't indicated any
interest in racing either of these races at any time in his carreer.

>Even if Lance wins a
>6th straight TdF, he'll still only have won a Grand Total of 6 "Grand
>Tours". Merckx won 5 TdFs, 5 Giros, and a Vuelta= 11 Grand Tours.
>Armstrong ought to at least try to race one of the other Grand tours.
> If not, then even with 6 straight wins, I'd rate him no higher
>than Anquetil, Hinault, or Indurain, and still below Merckx.

Fear not it won't happen. He's on the way out.

Dave Beal
July 29th 03, 04:17 AM
(Bung Tater) wrote in message >...
> "Steven L. Sheffield" > wrote in message >...
> > On 7/27/03 9:25 PM, in article
> > , "Steve"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
> > > strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
> > > me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball.
> > > But who's the greater athlete?
> > >
> > > MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
> > > win, never failed in any level.
> > >
> > > LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best cycler
> > > ever.
> >
> >
> > Lance is hardly the best cyclist ever.
>
> When he wins the 6th straight Tour next year, he will be.
>

Nope. Merckx won 5 Tours, 5 Giros and one Vuelta. He won 19 one-day
classics. He also held the world records for one hour, 10Km and 20Km.
He won the overall jersey, the sprinter's jersey and the King of the
Mountains jersey in the same Grand Tour, twice. Lance is a great
rider, but it's not even close.

> >
> > The names Eddy Merckx, Fausto Coppi, and Bernard Hinault ring a bell at all?
> > How about Jacques Anquetil and Miguel Indurain?
> >
>
> How many of them came back from a near-death experience w/ball cancer? Hmmmmm?
>
> BT

Raptor
July 29th 03, 05:13 AM
Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> Armstrongs main accomplishment was that he was able to overcome his own
> problems. However, given the fact that he only really trains for the tour,
> that slim margin on relatively unprepared riders like Ullrich and Vinokourov
> should have him worrying indeed, or perhaps wonder if he would not do just
> as well if he'd also concentrate on other races. All that preparation for
> just 15 seconds on Ullrich and 18 on Vinokourov, and then hoping for a good
> day (which, thankfully for Armstrong, came promptly)? It's really a shame
> when you look at what the other two did before the tour - deal with a
> collapsing team and win races, respectively. I think Bruyneel's fool-proof
> program has collapsed this year.
>
> Jonathan.

LANCE overcame the odds-driven "bad" year and won anyway.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

Ingemar Svensson
July 29th 03, 08:27 AM
(Bung Tater) wrote in message >...
> "Steven L. Sheffield" > wrote in message >...
> > On 7/27/03 9:25 PM, in article
> > , "Steve"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
> > > strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
> > > me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball.
> > > But who's the greater athlete?
> > >
> > > MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
> > > win, never failed in any level.
> > >
> > > LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best cycler
> > > ever.
> >
> >
> > Lance is hardly the best cyclist ever.
>
> When he wins the 6th straight Tour next year, he will be.
>
> >
> > The names Eddy Merckx, Fausto Coppi, and Bernard Hinault ring a bell at all?
> > How about Jacques Anquetil and Miguel Indurain?
> >
>
> How many of them came back from a near-death experience w/ball cancer? Hmmmmm?

Only Armstrong, but without the cancer Lance would have never won a
single tour. (When he came back his body was rebuildt to suit GC
racing. Before the cancer he was to big to ever win the tour.) The
others won their races without the extra motivation of a near death
situation. Armstrong has a clear advantage because of it.

>
> BT

Keith
July 29th 03, 10:24 AM
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:47:37 -0700, "Dashi Toshii" >
wrote:

>
>"Keith" > wrote in message
...
>> > If not, then even with 6 straight wins, I'd rate him no higher
>> >than Anquetil, Hinault, or Indurain, and still below Merckx.
>>
>> Fear not it won't happen. He's on the way out.
>
>After Lance wins his 6th TdF then and only then will he race and win the
>Giro and Vuelta. :)

ridiculous

>
>
>Dashii
>

salmoneous
July 29th 03, 03:21 PM
> Actually I would argue that MJ's attempt at baseball works against
> him. He was awful.

Awful? He was, perhaps, the 1000th best baseball player on the planet.
He was a d*mn good baseball player. He just wasn't amazing. However,
it does count against the OP's claim that he never failed and always
found a way to win.

A better example may be his attempt at golf. MJ loves the game, and
there was all this talk that, with his athletic gifts, drive to win,
etc. he'd end up on the Senior Tour, if not the PGA. Of course, he
never came close and is an somewhat above average golfer at best.

alex beascochea
July 29th 03, 03:33 PM
Keith > wrote in message >...
> >> I my opimion Armstrong is way too single minded to ever reach the
> >> highest ranks of cyclists. He's always going to be one step behind
> >> even if he wins his 6th tour. All the others in the 5-tour club have
> >> also won the Giro, Armstrong hasn't even tried.
> >
> > I agree with this. It will harm Lance's legacy if he doesn't
> >pull down a win in the Giro and/or the Vuelta.
>
> Well then I guess it's harmed for good as he hasn't indicated any
> interest in racing either of these races at any time in his carreer.

So what was he doing in the Vuelta 98? He was 4th.

K. J. Papai
July 29th 03, 05:36 PM
Keith > wrote in message >...
> >> I my opimion Armstrong is way too single minded to ever reach the
> >> highest ranks of cyclists. He's always going to be one step behind
> >> even if he wins his 6th tour. All the others in the 5-tour club have
> >> also won the Giro, Armstrong hasn't even tried.
> >
> > I agree with this. It will harm Lance's legacy if he doesn't
> >pull down a win in the Giro and/or the Vuelta.
>
> Well then I guess it's harmed for good as he hasn't indicated any
> interest in racing either of these races at any time in his carreer.

You are REALLY ignorant.
>
> >Even if Lance wins a
> >6th straight TdF, he'll still only have won a Grand Total of 6 "Grand
> >Tours". Merckx won 5 TdFs, 5 Giros, and a Vuelta= 11 Grand Tours.
> >Armstrong ought to at least try to race one of the other Grand tours.
> > If not, then even with 6 straight wins, I'd rate him no higher
> >than Anquetil, Hinault, or Indurain, and still below Merckx.
>
> Fear not it won't happen. He's on the way out.

xyz
July 29th 03, 08:13 PM
"Sam" > wrote in message >...

> That is pretty narrow. What about people in other sports like Bjorn Borg,
> Martina Navratilova, Pete Sampras, Bjorn Dahlie, Pele, Beckham (just
> kidding on that one), Haile Gebresalaise (I know I butchered that one), Jim
> Thorpe (my personal choice), Jesse Owens, Carl Lewis, Daley Thompson, Bon
> Matthias, etc? I am leaving out people I know, just making a point.
>
> I am thinking that the basketball folks will say MJ and the cycling folks
> LA.

Daley Thompson?

Mickey Mouse had the same credentials to be in that sports pantheon as Thompson.

Bung Tater
July 29th 03, 11:44 PM
(Ingemar Svensson) wrote in message >...
> (Bung Tater) wrote in message >...
> > "Steven L. Sheffield" > wrote in message >...
> > > On 7/27/03 9:25 PM, in article
> > > , "Steve"
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Congrtas to LA for a well deserved win. The dedication, the mental
> > > > strength and the superiority in his sport is really amazing. Reminds
> > > > me of Michael when he had total control of Basketball.
> > > > But who's the greater athlete?
> > > >
> > > > MJ- the ultimate competitor, refuses to lose, always finds a way to
> > > > win, never failed in any level.
> > > >
> > > > LA- overcame cancer, argueably in a tougher sport, the best cycler
> > > > ever.
> > >
> > >
> > > Lance is hardly the best cyclist ever.
> >
> > When he wins the 6th straight Tour next year, he will be.
> >
> > >
> > > The names Eddy Merckx, Fausto Coppi, and Bernard Hinault ring a bell at all?
> > > How about Jacques Anquetil and Miguel Indurain?
> > >
> >
> > How many of them came back from a near-death experience w/ball cancer? Hmmmmm?
>
> Only Armstrong, but without the cancer Lance would have never won a
> single tour. (When he came back his body was rebuildt to suit GC
> racing. Before the cancer he was to big to ever win the tour.) The
> others won their races without the extra motivation of a near death
> situation. Armstrong has a clear advantage because of it.
>

Boy I guess Lance is probably down on his knees right now, thanking
God for giving him cancer. Just curious, what makes think Lance
couldn't have just lost weight on his own, without cancer? It has
been done before by others, I'm told.

BT

Bung Tater
July 31st 03, 07:35 PM
(Ingemar Svensson) wrote in message >...
> > >
> >
> > Boy I guess Lance is probably down on his knees right now, thanking
> > God for giving him cancer. Just curious, what makes think Lance
> > couldn't have just lost weight on his own, without cancer? It has
> > been done before by others, I'm told.
> >
> > BT
>
> It's not a matter of just loosing weight. What he needed to do and
> what he got from the period he was away was to loose muscle groups
> that was overbuildt for the purpose of GC riding. He still had a lot
> of Triathlete muscles and that was the excess weight. After the cancer
> break he had to rebuild his body and then he only rebuildt the
> musclegroups suited for cycling. You can't say that he could have gone
> through that kind of change on his own.

Sure I can. Lance could have gone through those changes on his own,
without cancer. My question to you, still, is this - knowing the
champion we all know Armstrong to be, and the mental toughness he
obviously has, WHY do you think he never would have achieved any of
what he has achieved thus far without first having had cancer?

When he came back he rode the
> vuelta and saw that he had become a GC rider after that he became
> obsessed with winning the tour. That idea was only realistic at that
> point. There was no incentive for him to go through that change before
> he was forced to.

I don't see how this has anything to do with his cancer. With or
without the cancer, Armstrong would have found whatever he needed to
find within himself to win the tour...why? Becuase he's a champion, as
I said, and he would have continued training and finding his correct
weight until he won. Cancer or not.

BT

Florian Nachon
August 1st 03, 05:32 AM
Steven L. Sheffield > wrote:


> Lance is hardly the best cyclist ever.
>
> The names Eddy Merckx, Fausto Coppi, and Bernard Hinault ring a bell at all?
> How about Jacques Anquetil and Miguel Indurain?

Especially Eddy Merckx who was competiting and winning in ALL great race
in the year, like the Giro, the Vuelta...


--
Florian NACHON Omaha, USA

"Every man has two nations, and one of them is France"
Benjamin Franklin & Thomas Jefferson

Ingemar Svensson
August 1st 03, 08:43 AM
(Bung Tater) wrote in message >...
> (Ingemar Svensson) wrote in message >...
> > > >
> > >
> > > Boy I guess Lance is probably down on his knees right now, thanking
> > > God for giving him cancer. Just curious, what makes think Lance
> > > couldn't have just lost weight on his own, without cancer? It has
> > > been done before by others, I'm told.
> > >
> > > BT
> >
> > It's not a matter of just loosing weight. What he needed to do and
> > what he got from the period he was away was to loose muscle groups
> > that was overbuildt for the purpose of GC riding. He still had a lot
> > of Triathlete muscles and that was the excess weight. After the cancer
> > break he had to rebuild his body and then he only rebuildt the
> > musclegroups suited for cycling. You can't say that he could have gone
> > through that kind of change on his own.
>
> Sure I can. Lance could have gone through those changes on his own,
> without cancer. My question to you, still, is this - knowing the
> champion we all know Armstrong to be, and the mental toughness he
> obviously has, WHY do you think he never would have achieved any of
> what he has achieved thus far without first having had cancer?

What I'm saying is that there was no incentive for him to change his
entire physique. At the level he was at in 95-96 it would have been a
considerable break in his career to go through that change. I'm not
saying Lance wouldn't have had a great career without the cancer but I
do think it would have looked a lot different. A more obvious goal for
him at that point would have been to say "I'm going to win the World
Cup more than anyone has ever done." It would have been unrealistic
for him to say "I'm going to win 5 or 6 tour in a row." He was not
that kind of rider at that point.




>
> When he came back he rode the
> > vuelta and saw that he had become a GC rider after that he became
> > obsessed with winning the tour. That idea was only realistic at that
> > point. There was no incentive for him to go through that change before
> > he was forced to.
>
> I don't see how this has anything to do with his cancer. With or
> without the cancer, Armstrong would have found whatever he needed to
> find within himself to win the tour...why? Becuase he's a champion, as
> I said, and he would have continued training and finding his correct
> weight until he won. Cancer or not.
>
> BT

Just a Cyclist
August 1st 03, 03:45 PM
"Florian Nachon" > wrote in message
...
> Steven L. Sheffield > wrote:
>
>
> > Lance is hardly the best cyclist ever.
> >
> > The names Eddy Merckx, Fausto Coppi, and Bernard Hinault ring a bell at
all?
> > How about Jacques Anquetil and Miguel Indurain?
>
> Especially Eddy Merckx who was competiting and winning in ALL great race
> in the year, like the Giro, the Vuelta...
>
>
You can drop Hinault from that list...... I would put him in the
middle........of the any list!!!!!!!!!!

> Florian NACHON Omaha, USA
>
> "Every man has two nations, and one of them is France"
> Benjamin Franklin & Thomas Jefferson

Dashi Toshii
August 1st 03, 10:02 PM
"Ingemar Svensson" > wrote in message
om...
> (Bung Tater) wrote in message
>...
> > (Ingemar Svensson) wrote in message
>...
> What I'm saying is that there was no incentive for him to change his
> entire physique. At the level he was at in 95-96 it would have been a
> considerable break in his career to go through that change. I'm not
> saying Lance wouldn't have had a great career without the cancer but I
> do think it would have looked a lot different. A more obvious goal for
> him at that point would have been to say "I'm going to win the World
> Cup more than anyone has ever done." It would have been unrealistic
> for him to say "I'm going to win 5 or 6 tour in a row." He was not
> that kind of rider at that point.

That's true.

Dashii

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