Lance and Floyd

[psycholist]

Just saw the OLN "coverage" of Tour de GA and saw Lance's finish line
gesture to Floyd atop Brasstown Bald. So what was that? After the previous
stage, Floyd said, "the discovery guys weren't very nice to me today." I
assumed that was just a figure of speech. But then I saw that Lance gesture
and wondered if Lance is now holding a grudge against Floyd for moving on
with his career.

I know it's not like Lance flipped him off or anything, but he sure was
rubbing his nose in the fact that Danielson had just taken away his lead
(though I think Floyd may have been too far back to even notice the
gesture).

But man ... I couldn't believe the way Lance blasted away from Floyd there
at the finish. I've been there. That's some really steep road. Lance
opened up 100 meters on Floyd in a couple of blinks! And that after all
those miles and all the rest of that brutal mountain.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[PanFan]

"psycholist" > wrote in
:

> Just saw the OLN "coverage" of Tour de GA and saw Lance's finish line
> gesture to Floyd atop Brasstown Bald. So what was that? After the
> previous stage, Floyd said, "the discovery guys weren't very nice to
> me today." I assumed that was just a figure of speech. But then I
> saw that Lance gesture and wondered if Lance is now holding a grudge
> against Floyd for moving on with his career.
>
> I know it's not like Lance flipped him off or anything, but he sure
> was rubbing his nose in the fact that Danielson had just taken away
> his lead (though I think Floyd may have been too far back to even
> notice the gesture).

I had the feeling two years ago that Lance and Floyd were not close when
they were on Postal. Their personalities were like oil and water. They just
didn't mix. I also get the feeling Lance has been affected by his success
and sometimes likes to exert his status at the expense of other people.

Floyd, on the other hand, is a very humble person. He has a very blue
collar down-to-earth viewpoint and a great sense of sarcastic humor to make
sure we don't take the cycling world too seriously. He's so humble it might
even hurt his performance; he could use a little more swagger to emerge as
a team leader.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> I had the feeling two years ago that Lance and Floyd were not close when
> they were on Postal. Their personalities were like oil and water. They
> just
> didn't mix. I also get the feeling Lance has been affected by his success
> and sometimes likes to exert his status at the expense of other people.

That's certainly at odds with Lance's last book, in which he basically
claims to have taken Landis under his wing and watched out for him. And of
course everything that's written in a book must be true, whether it's
written by Lance or Walsh...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"PanFan" > wrote in message
...
> "psycholist" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Just saw the OLN "coverage" of Tour de GA and saw Lance's finish line
>> gesture to Floyd atop Brasstown Bald. So what was that? After the
>> previous stage, Floyd said, "the discovery guys weren't very nice to
>> me today." I assumed that was just a figure of speech. But then I
>> saw that Lance gesture and wondered if Lance is now holding a grudge
>> against Floyd for moving on with his career.
>>
>> I know it's not like Lance flipped him off or anything, but he sure
>> was rubbing his nose in the fact that Danielson had just taken away
>> his lead (though I think Floyd may have been too far back to even
>> notice the gesture).
>
> I had the feeling two years ago that Lance and Floyd were not close when
> they were on Postal. Their personalities were like oil and water. They
> just
> didn't mix. I also get the feeling Lance has been affected by his success
> and sometimes likes to exert his status at the expense of other people.
>
> Floyd, on the other hand, is a very humble person. He has a very blue
> collar down-to-earth viewpoint and a great sense of sarcastic humor to
> make
> sure we don't take the cycling world too seriously. He's so humble it
> might
> even hurt his performance; he could use a little more swagger to emerge as
> a team leader.
>

[Tim Lines]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>I had the feeling two years ago that Lance and Floyd were not close when
>>they were on Postal. Their personalities were like oil and water. They
>>just
>>didn't mix. I also get the feeling Lance has been affected by his success
>>and sometimes likes to exert his status at the expense of other people.
>
>
> That's certainly at odds with Lance's last book, in which he basically
> claims to have taken Landis under his wing and watched out for him. And of
> course everything that's written in a book must be true, whether it's
> written by Lance or Walsh...

Personally, those books make me want to throw up. However ...

Does anyone besides me remember a stage last year that Lance tried to
set Floyd up to win? It went to hell when Ullrich caught them on a
descent a few km from the finish. Lance won in a sprint over Kloden, I
believe. I'd have to go back over the DVD's but I believe this was just
before Alpe D'Huez.

It sure didn't appear that there was a grudge between them, their
"personalities were like oil and water" or anything like that.

[psycholist]

"PanFan" > wrote in message
...
> "psycholist" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Just saw the OLN "coverage" of Tour de GA and saw Lance's finish line
>> gesture to Floyd atop Brasstown Bald. So what was that? After the
>> previous stage, Floyd said, "the discovery guys weren't very nice to
>> me today." I assumed that was just a figure of speech. But then I
>> saw that Lance gesture and wondered if Lance is now holding a grudge
>> against Floyd for moving on with his career.
>>
>> I know it's not like Lance flipped him off or anything, but he sure
>> was rubbing his nose in the fact that Danielson had just taken away
>> his lead (though I think Floyd may have been too far back to even
>> notice the gesture).
>
> I had the feeling two years ago that Lance and Floyd were not close when
> they were on Postal. Their personalities were like oil and water. They
> just
> didn't mix. I also get the feeling Lance has been affected by his success
> and sometimes likes to exert his status at the expense of other people.
>
> Floyd, on the other hand, is a very humble person. He has a very blue
> collar down-to-earth viewpoint and a great sense of sarcastic humor to
> make
> sure we don't take the cycling world too seriously. He's so humble it
> might
> even hurt his performance; he could use a little more swagger to emerge as
> a team leader.
>

What was Floyd's upbringing? Amish or Mennonite? Whichever ... I know
several Mennonites and one Amish and they share certain traits ... humility,
but also a quiet strength and confidence and an incredible work ethic. I
know it's not PC to generalize and stereotype like that, but if ever there
were groups worthy of stereotyping, it's the Amish and the Mennonites.
Where I live, many of the local tradesmen are Mennonites. They're the
plumbers, the electricians, the carpenters, the brick masons (actually,
they're Amish), etc. They show up when they say they're going to. They do
what they say they're going to do ... and then some. They don't work cheap,
but they tell you the cost up front and they never ask for a penny more.
They're honorable and trustworthy. Those are such rare qualities to find
these days.

I'm not too sure one would foster much of a killer instinct growing up under
that kind of influence. That, and the fundamental underlying belief in God
might give Floyd a personality profile that would clash with someone like
Lance.
--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[Stewart Fleming]

psycholist wrote:

> Just saw the OLN "coverage" of Tour de GA and saw Lance's finish line
> gesture to Floyd atop Brasstown Bald. So what was that? After the previous
> stage, Floyd said, "the discovery guys weren't very nice to me today." I
> assumed that was just a figure of speech. But then I saw that Lance gesture
> and wondered if Lance is now holding a grudge against Floyd for moving on
> with his career.
>
> I know it's not like Lance flipped him off or anything, but he sure was
> rubbing his nose in the fact that Danielson had just taken away his lead
> (though I think Floyd may have been too far back to even notice the
> gesture).
>
> But man ... I couldn't believe the way Lance blasted away from Floyd there
> at the finish. I've been there. That's some really steep road. Lance
> opened up 100 meters on Floyd in a couple of blinks! And that after all
> those miles and all the rest of that brutal mountain.
>

First...

"The only reason I sprinted [away from Landis] is because I wasn't sure
if there were time bonuses or not," explained Armstrong. "Obviously, I
couldn't talk to Johan because he was busy yelling in Tom's ear... I
though perhaps it was going to be 10-, 6- and 4-seconds and it was going
to be close. You never know what happens, so you have to sprint in the
odd chance there is a time bonus..."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/apr05/georgia05/?id=results/georgia055

....but then...

"I didn't see [Landis, talking about sprinting at the end]. I looked
back to see where he was and looked at the clock..I've invested a lot of
time and energy into each and every one of them, whether it's Kevin
Livingston or Tyler Hamilton or Floyd Landis or, now, Tom Danielson. And
they've all become much better riders after they left the team. So to
see one rider who left the team on his own will be taken over by
somebody who came onto the team and is happy and really pleased to be
here, for me, that's a special thing."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/apr05/apr25news

"...somebody who came onto the team and is happy..."
Hmmmm. Ouch.

[[email protected]]

psycholist wrote:
> Just saw the OLN "coverage" of Tour de GA and saw Lance's finish
> line gesture to Floyd atop Brasstown Bald. So what was that? After
> the previous

What kind of gesture did Lance do? There wasn't any tv coverage of the
TdG here in Europe, so I only saw what Lance said ("So to see one rider
who left the team on his own will be taken over by somebody who came
onto the team and is happy and really pleased to be here, for me,
that's a special thing.") after the stage and thought it
sounded...well...not very nice...



/Erik


--
"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -- USMC
<http://erik.tjernlund.net/>

[Jonathan v.d. Sluis]

"Tim Lines" > schreef in bericht
...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >>I had the feeling two years ago that Lance and Floyd were not close when
> >>they were on Postal. Their personalities were like oil and water. They
> >>just
> >>didn't mix. I also get the feeling Lance has been affected by his
success
> >>and sometimes likes to exert his status at the expense of other people.
> >
> >
> > That's certainly at odds with Lance's last book, in which he basically
> > claims to have taken Landis under his wing and watched out for him. And
of
> > course everything that's written in a book must be true, whether it's
> > written by Lance or Walsh...
>
> Personally, those books make me want to throw up. However ...
>
> Does anyone besides me remember a stage last year that Lance tried to
> set Floyd up to win? It went to hell when Ullrich caught them on a
> descent a few km from the finish. Lance won in a sprint over Kloden, I
> believe. I'd have to go back over the DVD's but I believe this was just
> before Alpe D'Huez.
>
> It sure didn't appear that there was a grudge between them, their
> "personalities were like oil and water" or anything like that.

But then again, recent discoveries about Tyler Hamilton have made Walsh'
book more credible, too.

[psycholist]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> psycholist wrote:
>> Just saw the OLN "coverage" of Tour de GA and saw Lance's finish
>> line gesture to Floyd atop Brasstown Bald. So what was that? After
>> the previous
>
> What kind of gesture did Lance do? There wasn't any tv coverage of the
> TdG here in Europe, so I only saw what Lance said ("So to see one rider
> who left the team on his own will be taken over by somebody who came
> onto the team and is happy and really pleased to be here, for me,
> that's a special thing.") after the stage and thought it
> sounded...well...not very nice...
>
>
>
> /Erik
>
>
> --
> "Pain is weakness leaving the body." -- USMC
> <http://erik.tjernlund.net/>
>

Lance sprinted away from Floyd in the last 1/2 km like Floyd was standing
still. Then, as Lance approached the line, he kinda made a big show of
pointing back to Floyd (picture him sitting upright and twisted all the way
around pointing back to Floyd), then pointing up to the clock to highlight
the time gap to Danielson, then fist pumping, etc. It really looked like an
"in your face" kind of thing. But it also looked like Floyd was so far back
already that he probably didn't see it.
--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[[email protected]]

"The only reason I sprinted [away from Landis] is because I wasn't sure

if there were time bonuses or not,"

I had read that comment and wondered how a professional rider could not
know if there were time bonuses or not in a tight race. It made me
wonder if Lance has truly lost interest...or if that was just an excuse
to rub it in Floyd's face. It was an amazing sprint and the type of
explosive cycling that makes Lance so popular, but the pointing back at
Floyd and then the clock... I guess Lance can't help it. That kind of
instinct makes him a winner but also makes people wonder about his
character. Remember the Simeoni incident?

[J Jones]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> "The only reason I sprinted [away from Landis] is because I wasn't sure
>
> if there were time bonuses or not,"
>
> I had read that comment and wondered how a professional rider could not
> know if there were time bonuses or not in a tight race. It made me
> wonder if Lance has truly lost interest...or if that was just an excuse
> to rub it in Floyd's face. It was an amazing sprint and the type of
> explosive cycling that makes Lance so popular, but the pointing back at
> Floyd and then the clock... I guess Lance can't help it. That kind of
> instinct makes him a winner but also makes people wonder about his
> character. Remember the Simeoni incident?
>

It doesn't make me wonder about his character at all. His 'character' is
that he's an incredibly tough competitor who backs up his words and actions
with world-class performance. He doesn't like losing - thank God - and is
not afraid to "get into competitor's heads" to gain advantage. All good
things.
Jeff

[Jonathan v.d. Sluis]

"J Jones" > schreef in bericht
...
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > "The only reason I sprinted [away from Landis] is because I wasn't sure
> >
> > if there were time bonuses or not,"
> >
> > I had read that comment and wondered how a professional rider could not
> > know if there were time bonuses or not in a tight race. It made me
> > wonder if Lance has truly lost interest...or if that was just an excuse
> > to rub it in Floyd's face. It was an amazing sprint and the type of
> > explosive cycling that makes Lance so popular, but the pointing back at
> > Floyd and then the clock... I guess Lance can't help it. That kind of
> > instinct makes him a winner but also makes people wonder about his
> > character. Remember the Simeoni incident?
> >
>
> It doesn't make me wonder about his character at all. His 'character' is
> that he's an incredibly tough competitor who backs up his words and
actions
> with world-class performance. He doesn't like losing - thank God - and is
> not afraid to "get into competitor's heads" to gain advantage. All good
> things.
> Jeff

You don't need to get into anyone's head to win, and some winners are
gracious when they lose, too. There are different motivations and personally
I'm not impressed by Armstrong's particular brand. The bull**** he has
talked about other riders, as well as the rather pathetic Simeoni incident,
made me care very little for Armstrong and I suspect that I'm not the only
one. I like cycling for the most part, but Lance Armstrong is one of the
less savoury bits.

[[email protected]]

I still find it odd that he didn=92t know whether or not there were time
bonuses. All you pros out there, is that likely for someone as
famously focused as Lance? Afterall, he=92s in a race that his sponsors
have said they want to win and that his teammate won by only 4 seconds.
If it=92s true, I think it=92s a further sign that he=92s really done with
the whole thing. I listened to his radio show last night and he is
literally counting the days =93two months and 24 days and then I=92m
finished.=94 Maybe he needs the negative motivation ala Floyd to get to
the finish line. I have to admit that no matter what I think of some
of Lance=92s moves on and off the bike, I always root for him to win come
race day, and I=92ll will be rooting for him to win his 7th.

[Robert Chung]

Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
>
> But then again, recent discoveries about Tyler Hamilton have made Walsh'
> book more credible, too.

1. What did you think of Walsh's book before the recent discoveries about
Hamilton?
2. Which Hamilton discoveries in particular made the book more credible?

[lazysegall]

Wrote:
> "The only reason I sprinted [away from Landis] is because I wasn't sure
>
> if there were time bonuses or not,"
>
> I had read that comment and wondered how a professional rider could
> not
> know if there were time bonuses or not in a tight race. It made me
> wonder if Lance has truly lost interest...or if that was just an
> excuse
> to rub it in Floyd's face. It was an amazing sprint and the type of
> explosive cycling that makes Lance so popular, but the pointing back
> at
> Floyd and then the clock... I guess Lance can't help it. That kind
> of
> instinct makes him a winner but also makes people wonder about his
> character. Remember the Simeoni incident?

Hasn't this sort of thing happned before. On Luz Ardiden when lance
was up the road, Mayo attacked jan for time bonuses presumably, after
he had sat on Jan's wheel. I think that one explanation was that
Eskatel was going for the team title, only to learn though that time
bonuses don't count in the Team TDF competion.

In a sport like baseball, I have seen a player throw the ball into the
stands after the second out allowing a player to tag and score. Its
hard to remember every detail, but it might be a bit of an excuse in
this case anyway. Maybe even a joke.


--
lazysegall

[[email protected]]

Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> "Tim Lines" > schreef in bericht
> ...
> > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > >>I had the feeling two years ago that Lance and Floyd were not
close when
> > >>they were on Postal. Their personalities were like oil and water.
They
> > >>just
> > >>didn't mix. I also get the feeling Lance has been affected by his
> success
> > >>and sometimes likes to exert his status at the expense of other
people.
> > >
> > >
> > > That's certainly at odds with Lance's last book, in which he
basically
> > > claims to have taken Landis under his wing and watched out for
him. And
> of
> > > course everything that's written in a book must be true, whether
it's
> > > written by Lance or Walsh...
> >
> > Personally, those books make me want to throw up. However ...
> >
> > Does anyone besides me remember a stage last year that Lance tried
to
> > set Floyd up to win? It went to hell when Ullrich caught them on a
> > descent a few km from the finish. Lance won in a sprint over
Kloden, I
> > believe. I'd have to go back over the DVD's but I believe this was
just
> > before Alpe D'Huez.
> >
> > It sure didn't appear that there was a grudge between them, their
> > "personalities were like oil and water" or anything like that.
>


Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> But then again, recent discoveries about Tyler Hamilton have made
Walsh'
> book more credible, too.

And then the failure of LA to have tested postive during the last year,
makes Walsh' claims less credibe, too. But then there wasn't much
there to begin with.

ray

[Rik Van Diesel]

Lance is a dick. Landis is one nice guy.

[[email protected]]

so if all you lance lovers want to be like lance,
win the local 45+ masters parking lot/industrial park crit,
pump your fist, yell "BOO-YA IN YOUR FACE SUCKERS!"
Then talk smack about all the other riders.

the way I see it, lance is very motivated to see
his team win, at any cost, so he doesn't care about
other riders as human beings or friends, but pawns in his game,
which is the successfull way for him to do it.
Other champions, like Induarain, Lemond, and even
Hinault to a degree, were more well liked because they
played a more tradittional european game of letting
other teams fight for scraps and get some honour,
rather than humiliating them, the way lance likes to do
it. he has no class, grace, or humility, which are not
required to be a champion, but do make the sport
great.
after all the work landis did for lance he deserved better
than to basically be mocked at the finish line, like lance
was doing some cheesy american football endzone dance.

[Ed Sullivan]

Dear ,

Please explain how you divine the intentions and motivations of people
you have never met. Do you have telepathic powers?

Thanks,

Ed

[[email protected]]

Hi Ed,
that is a retarded question. lance is a public person, more than
any other cyclist in the history of the sport,
and he is the subject of books, interviews, and
way way too much time on OLN, I can't watch a race
without being bombarded with what kind of coffee he drinks,
how Sheryl Crow inspect his chamois, etc.
I don't know him, but from what I've seen, heard,
and generally gathered from over 10 years
participating in the sport, I can agree with
RVD by concluding he is a dick.
He is the greatest cyclist ever next to Eddy,
but I'm sorry, the guy is an asshole.
Maybe he's a nice guy, and just pretends to
be a dick asshole on TV, I don't know.
But Marty Jemison, Andy Bishop,
and many other good american cyclists
have come in conflict with Lance over the years,
along with harrassing little riders like
Simeoni, Indurain would NEVER have
stopped down to the level of that kinda petty
stuff - suing other riders.
the gesture he made to floyd was not
nice, was it? do you have to be telepathic to
know that?

[Ed Sullivan]

wrote:
> Hi Ed,
> that is a retarded question. lance is a public person, more than
> any other cyclist in the history of the sport,
> and he is the subject of books, interviews, and
> way way too much time on OLN, I can't watch a race
> without being bombarded with what kind of coffee he drinks,
> how Sheryl Crow inspect his chamois, etc.
> I don't know him, but from what I've seen, heard,
> and generally gathered from over 10 years
> participating in the sport, I can agree with
> RVD by concluding he is a dick.
> He is the greatest cyclist ever next to Eddy,
> but I'm sorry, the guy is an asshole.
> Maybe he's a nice guy, and just pretends to
> be a dick asshole on TV, I don't know.
> But Marty Jemison, Andy Bishop,
> and many other good american cyclists
> have come in conflict with Lance over the years,
> along with harrassing little riders like
> Simeoni, Indurain would NEVER have
> stopped down to the level of that kinda petty
> stuff - suing other riders.
> the gesture he made to floyd was not
> nice, was it? do you have to be telepathic to
> know that?


Dear ,

You sure are cute when you're a raving lunatic.

Thanks,

Ed

[[email protected]]

raving? no. there is a place for an athlete like armstrong,
nascar, football, baseball, sports like that where its accepted
practice to taunt opponents, talk smack.
Remember the 96 tour when he tried to beat up a little
french dude for "riding sketchy" - he's been doing stuff like
that for years.
When you mention stuff like this to people like you,
the response is always some weird one line response -
how about telling my why his gesture to Floyd was
good, or how it was an example of his sportsmanlike conduct?

If Floyd won the Tour this year, he would thank
Lance for helping him in the past, not taunt him with gestures,
because he has class.

[Ed Sullivan]

wrote:

> If Floyd won the Tour this year, he would thank
> Lance for helping him in the past, not taunt him with gestures,
> because he has class.


Dear

You're getting cuter all the time. In addition to your telepathic
powers, you can now predict the future.

Thanks,

Ed

[psycholist]

"Ed Sullivan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> wrote:
>> Hi Ed,
>> that is a retarded question. lance is a public person, more than
>> any other cyclist in the history of the sport,
>> and he is the subject of books, interviews, and
>> way way too much time on OLN, I can't watch a race
>> without being bombarded with what kind of coffee he drinks,
>> how Sheryl Crow inspect his chamois, etc.
>> I don't know him, but from what I've seen, heard,
>> and generally gathered from over 10 years
>> participating in the sport, I can agree with
>> RVD by concluding he is a dick.
>> He is the greatest cyclist ever next to Eddy,
>> but I'm sorry, the guy is an asshole.
>> Maybe he's a nice guy, and just pretends to
>> be a dick asshole on TV, I don't know.
>> But Marty Jemison, Andy Bishop,
>> and many other good american cyclists
>> have come in conflict with Lance over the years,
>> along with harrassing little riders like
>> Simeoni, Indurain would NEVER have
>> stopped down to the level of that kinda petty
>> stuff - suing other riders.
>> the gesture he made to floyd was not
>> nice, was it? do you have to be telepathic to
>> know that?
>
>
> Dear ,
>
> You sure are cute when you're a raving lunatic.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed

Ed,

I've gotta stand with dlow... on this one. I thought the comparison to an
endzone dance in football was appropriate ... but with a spike in the face
of the opposing cornerback or something added for insult. It just wasn't a
class thing for Lance to do. He's so close to being a class act, but then
he does boneheaded things like he did on Brasstown and like he did to
Simeoni. THAT was REALLY boneheaded and unnecessary. I was embarrassed for
him as I watched him pull that stupid stunt. And I'll bet Lance's attorney
was screaming at the TV ... LANCE, NOOOOOooooo ... YOU IDIOT!

But the real Lance bubbles to the surface despite himself.

He's a remarkable athlete and I love to watch him compete ... except when he
can't resist being an ass.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[Stewart Fleming]

Ed Sullivan wrote:
> Dear ,
>
> Please explain how you divine the intentions and motivations of people
> you have never met. Do you have telepathic powers?

This is a bit like phoning up a clairvoyant and asking them if they know
who you are and were they expecting your call...

[Tim Lines]

Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> "Tim Lines" > schreef in bericht
> ...
>
>>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
<snip>
>>>course everything that's written in a book must be true, whether it's
>>>written by Lance or Walsh...
>>
>>Personally, those books make me want to throw up. However ...
>>
<snip>

> But then again, recent discoveries about Tyler Hamilton have made Walsh'
> book more credible, too.
>
>

Then again, that picture I saw of Lance with the 3 year old cancer
patient has made the Armstrong book more credible too.

[CowPunk]

You haven't been around many Texans have you?
Called an old friend an SOB is normal.

[[email protected]]

http://coolbicycling.com/2005tourdegeorgiastage5_03.htm

There's a picture on this page of Lance turning around and pointing
during stage 5. You can see him turned around but can't really see him
pointing. It's a blog site by the woman who asked the stupid question
at the press conference about Sheryl's cooking. By the way, she's also
the same woman in the Lance Chronicles who makes a fool of herself by
yelling "I love you Lance" in the team bus window while they all laugh
at her. Yikes.

[Steven L. Sheffield]

On 05/02/2005 08:34 AM, in article
. com, "
> wrote:

> I still find it odd that he didn�t know whether or not there were time
> bonuses. All you pros out there, is that likely for someone as
> famously focused as Lance? Afterall, he�s in a race that his sponsors
> have said they want to win and that his teammate won by only 4 seconds.
> If it�s true, I think it�s a further sign that he�s really done with
> the whole thing. I listened to his radio show last night and he is
> literally counting the days �two months and 24 days and then I�m
> finished.� Maybe he needs the negative motivation ala Floyd to get to
> the finish line. I have to admit that no matter what I think of some
> of Lance�s moves on and off the bike, I always root for him to win come
> race day, and I�ll will be rooting for him to win his 7th.


Why wouldn't you root for Floyd or Bobby J. or any even (dare I say it)
Tommy D. to win his 1st, if you find LANCE's actions to be so unsavory?

Why wouldn't you root for Ullrich to win his 2nd, so that whoever wins next
year doesn't "only win because LANCE wasn't there"?




--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash

[Curtis L. Russell]

On 2 May 2005 10:32:13 -0700, wrote:

>Other champions, like Induarain, Lemond, and even
>Hinault to a degree, were more well liked because they
>played a more tradittional european game of letting
>other teams fight for scraps and get some honour,
>rather than humiliating them, the way lance likes to do
>it.

Yep, must be that Armstrong is the first cycling champion to not be
liked by one and all. All of those fueds from the old days, including
such respected champions as Merckx, Hinault, Coppi - ahhh, must all be
made up.

I need to reread the part about Merckx and giving scraps to the other
teams. Best I recall, he did that usually when doing a combine that is
no longer legal in UCI racing.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

[Howard Kveck]

In article >,
Stewart Fleming > wrote:

> Ed Sullivan wrote:
> > Dear ,
> >
> > Please explain how you divine the intentions and motivations of people
> > you have never met. Do you have telepathic powers?
>
> This is a bit like phoning up a clairvoyant and asking them if they know
> who you are and were they expecting your call...

So why do they have to announce when and where the psychics fair is?
Shouldn't they all know anyway?

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Howard Kveck]

In article >,
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" > wrote:

> You don't need to get into anyone's head to win, and some winners are
> gracious when they lose, too.

A winner who's gracious when he loses is good, but I also like to see a
winner who's gracious when he wins.

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Jonathan v.d. Sluis]

"Tim Lines" > schreef in bericht
...
> Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> > "Tim Lines" > schreef in bericht
> > ...
> >
> >>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> <snip>
> >>>course everything that's written in a book must be true, whether it's
> >>>written by Lance or Walsh...
> >>
> >>Personally, those books make me want to throw up. However ...
> >>
> <snip>
>
> > But then again, recent discoveries about Tyler Hamilton have made Walsh'
> > book more credible, too.
> >
> >
>
> Then again, that picture I saw of Lance with the 3 year old cancer
> patient has made the Armstrong book more credible too.

Exactly!

[Jonathan v.d. Sluis]

"Robert Chung" > schreef in bericht
...
> Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> >
> > But then again, recent discoveries about Tyler Hamilton have made Walsh'
> > book more credible, too.
>
> 1. What did you think of Walsh's book before the recent discoveries about
> Hamilton?
> 2. Which Hamilton discoveries in particular made the book more credible?
>
>

My point was, for those who need it spelled out a bit more, that you can't
point at just one incident and say: "hey it's true! Armstrong and Landis are
actually good friends because he tried to set the other up to win!" What do
we know? Landis might even have appreciated Armstrong's gesture.

As for Walsh' book, I'm entirely biased because I think Armstrong uses
doping anyway. So there's bound to be something you can reveal about him,
for whatever reason. But Walsh seems fixed on one rider and I really don't
see the point of that. In fact I think it's unfair. Doping doesn't begin or
end with Armstrong.

[Robert Chung]

Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> "Robert Chung" > schreef in bericht
> ...
>> Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
>>>
>>> But then again, recent discoveries about Tyler Hamilton have made
>>> Walsh' book more credible, too.
>>
>> 1. What did you think of Walsh's book before the recent discoveries
>> about Hamilton?
>> 2. Which Hamilton discoveries in particular made the book more
>> credible?
>
> My point was, for those who need it spelled out a bit more, that you
> can't point at just one incident [snip]

Hmmm. If you believe that, why would you think any one incident involving
Hamilton makes Walsh's book (which isn't really about Hamilton) more
credible?

[Jonathan v.d. Sluis]

"Robert Chung" > schreef in bericht
...
> Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> > "Robert Chung" > schreef in bericht
> > ...
> >> Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> >>>
> >>> But then again, recent discoveries about Tyler Hamilton have made
> >>> Walsh' book more credible, too.
> >>
> >> 1. What did you think of Walsh's book before the recent discoveries
> >> about Hamilton?
> >> 2. Which Hamilton discoveries in particular made the book more
> >> credible?
> >
> > My point was, for those who need it spelled out a bit more, that you
> > can't point at just one incident [snip]
>
> Hmmm. If you believe that, why would you think any one incident involving
> Hamilton makes Walsh's book (which isn't really about Hamilton) more
> credible?

Honestly, I don't. It was sarcasm, and a jab at people who really do believe
that their hero Armstrong was tainted when Hamilton got caught.

[[email protected]]

the fueds were between the champions, not between an
armstrong and a simeoni or bassons.
I do agree though, Merckx was a little like Armstrong, he didn't like
"his" riders leaving the fold and would punish his opponents.
I guess when you can dominate that way,
you don't need to be nice, but floyds comment
about discovery "not being nice to him"
discovery = Lance.
I thought Indurain was a boring rider, but he proved
you don't have to be like that to win,
but I guess it's just a personality thing -
the bad-ass "don't mess with
texas" thing.
being the best is going to make you a
little disliked, but you don't have to rub it in
peoples faces - which is lances raison d'etre,
"the germans spit on me, so Kloden does not
get a stage" - I thought that was pretty cool
of Lance actually, but you get the idea, it
seems like he's successfully
motivated by rage, WWF death cage style.
last year when he said he wanted floyd to win a stage,
he really wanted his TEAM to win a stage,
he could give a nut about Landis, or
Danielson, Hamilton, Jemison, Livingston,
etc - they are all dispensible flunkies to him,
it's not like he considers them real friends -
did he give Chann Mcrae any help? wasn't that
his best friend ever?

[Tom Kunich]

Lance sprinted away to fast that it was plain that if he had gone well
in the TT (what the hell happened there?) he would have EASILY won the
Tour of Georgia.

[Tom Kunich]

Lance sprinted away so fast that it was plain that if he had gone well
in the TT (what the hell happened there?) he would have EASILY won the
Tour of Georgia.

[Curtis L. Russell]

On 3 May 2005 10:54:51 -0700, wrote:

>he really wanted his TEAM to win a stage,
>he could give a nut about Landis, or
>Danielson, Hamilton, Jemison, Livingston,
>etc - they are all dispensible flunkies to him,
>it's not like he considers them real friends -
>did he give Chann Mcrae any help? wasn't that
>his best friend ever?

Make idle (or idol for the LA fans) speculation about the
ramifications of a single gesture is mormal fodder for rbr; what I
fail to understand is trying to turn our far removed observations into
a whole life skein of people we don't really know.

Here are some 'facts': I don't know what motivates my co-workers that
I have known in a variety of circumstances for almost two years. I
don't have a clue what motivates my brother-in-law or his wife and
I've known him for 20. I sometimes am completely befuddled by my wife
and I've known her about as long as anyone, seeing as now I've lived
with her longer than anyone else. (For instance, 20 years and counting
- my mother figured maybe she could take me for a couple of years,
tops.)

With the exception of my wife and my mother, any of the above could be
white racists (and my mother OTOH dislikes very strongly a whole lot
of white folks), except those that would have to be either black or
Chinese racists. Any, with the above noted exceptions, could be
molesting small children or puppies or small children with puppies or,
most likely, puppies with small children.

Some could be serial murderers, especially as the murder rate in DC
could mask several. Some of you in California might even know the guy
taking pot shots at the freeway and think he or she is a nice person.

We have a new guy that some people think is a pain in the ass, some
seem to like him and I think is trying to be the next Chief Exec of
the JCC - which is no skin off my nose, seeing as how they aren't
likely to make a Unitarian Universalist the CEO of a Jewish Community
Center.

Anyway, I am amazed that there are so many people that can take small
gestures from and to people they do not even know and turn them into
entire story lines complete with villains, victims and good guys. I
wouldn't do that with the people I spend time with almost every day.

Back story: the worst fight I thought I would have to step into as an
official was when two guys crossed the line, the winner taunting the
loser. They came off their bikes like it was going to be a war, and it
turned out to be some game they had been working into over the race. I
looked stupid stepping in between them about the time they started
laughing.

Another back story: In basic training back in the, well, a while ago,
we thought the drill instructors were raving maniacs. The 'joke' was
that if one of them told four of us to carry a Cadillac to the top of
a hill, we would before we realized it was physically impossible. The
day after we finished final qualifications - think it was the range
fire where us that could shoot pretty good used an extra illegal
thousand rounds or so to run up a better than 100 per cent rating for
all concerned - the drill sergeants sat down with us with beer and
turned out to be completely normal people, even likeable in almost
every case. And we 'knew' them 16 hours a day for a couple of months -
in fact, from a distance of about 4 inches, their face in ours.

I'll just watch the racing. If and when someone starts taking people
down, I'll worry about his character. Until then, its enough that I
know that I don't know **** about them.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

[Tim Lines]

Curtis, what's wrong with you? You're making sense and this is, you
know, rbr. Acknowledging your limitations in divining the thoughts and
intentions of others is realistic and commendable but ... WE JUST DON'T
GET IT! Quit wasting our time.

Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On 3 May 2005 10:54:51 -0700, wrote:
>
>
>>he really wanted his TEAM to win a stage,
>>he could give a nut about Landis, or
>>Danielson, Hamilton, Jemison, Livingston,
>>etc - they are all dispensible flunkies to him,
>>it's not like he considers them real friends -
>>did he give Chann Mcrae any help? wasn't that
>>his best friend ever?
>
>
> Make idle (or idol for the LA fans) speculation about the
> ramifications of a single gesture is mormal fodder for rbr; what I
> fail to understand is trying to turn our far removed observations into
> a whole life skein of people we don't really know.
>
> Here are some 'facts': I don't know what motivates my co-workers that
> I have known in a variety of circumstances for almost two years. I
> don't have a clue what motivates my brother-in-law or his wife and
> I've known him for 20. I sometimes am completely befuddled by my wife
> and I've known her about as long as anyone, seeing as now I've lived
> with her longer than anyone else. (For instance, 20 years and counting
> - my mother figured maybe she could take me for a couple of years,
> tops.)
>
> With the exception of my wife and my mother, any of the above could be
> white racists (and my mother OTOH dislikes very strongly a whole lot
> of white folks), except those that would have to be either black or
> Chinese racists. Any, with the above noted exceptions, could be
> molesting small children or puppies or small children with puppies or,
> most likely, puppies with small children.
>
> Some could be serial murderers, especially as the murder rate in DC
> could mask several. Some of you in California might even know the guy
> taking pot shots at the freeway and think he or she is a nice person.
>
> We have a new guy that some people think is a pain in the ass, some
> seem to like him and I think is trying to be the next Chief Exec of
> the JCC - which is no skin off my nose, seeing as how they aren't
> likely to make a Unitarian Universalist the CEO of a Jewish Community
> Center.
>
> Anyway, I am amazed that there are so many people that can take small
> gestures from and to people they do not even know and turn them into
> entire story lines complete with villains, victims and good guys. I
> wouldn't do that with the people I spend time with almost every day.
>
> Back story: the worst fight I thought I would have to step into as an
> official was when two guys crossed the line, the winner taunting the
> loser. They came off their bikes like it was going to be a war, and it
> turned out to be some game they had been working into over the race. I
> looked stupid stepping in between them about the time they started
> laughing.
>
> Another back story: In basic training back in the, well, a while ago,
> we thought the drill instructors were raving maniacs. The 'joke' was
> that if one of them told four of us to carry a Cadillac to the top of
> a hill, we would before we realized it was physically impossible. The
> day after we finished final qualifications - think it was the range
> fire where us that could shoot pretty good used an extra illegal
> thousand rounds or so to run up a better than 100 per cent rating for
> all concerned - the drill sergeants sat down with us with beer and
> turned out to be completely normal people, even likeable in almost
> every case. And we 'knew' them 16 hours a day for a couple of months -
> in fact, from a distance of about 4 inches, their face in ours.
>
> I'll just watch the racing. If and when someone starts taking people
> down, I'll worry about his character. Until then, its enough that I
> know that I don't know **** about them.
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

[[email protected]]

curtis wrote:
"Anyway, I am amazed that there are so many people that can take small
gestures from and to people they do not even know and turn them into
entire story lines complete with villains, victims and good guys. I
wouldn't do that with the people I spend time with almost every day. "


I don't want to watch you and your workplace on TV (unless it's really
funny like the
office), that would be as boring as my own life...
and bike racing is like that, there are good guys, villians, and
victims.
Have you ever read anything by Samuel Abt? he doesn't write much about
the
actual racing - his articles are about the drama, the characters, the
winners, the losers,
the champions and the little riders. He wrote an article about Luc
Leblanc, it was
about how he chased his own teammates down regularly and was a big
egotistical megamaniacal jerk.
He contrasted that to Alex Zulle, a rider of great class and
generosity, who
was equally nice in victory and defeat, helping Indurain on his bad day
on
Luz Ardiden in the 96 tour.
I enjoy watching the racing in context - I root for riders I like and
can relate to.
It seems simple to me, but people on this list make it seem like if you
don't
know Lance personally, you can't have an opinion on the guy.
you don't have to agree with me, you can love Lance for all his
bravado and machismo - whatever, thats whats good about cycling,
and sport.
why does cycle sport show us the inside of cipo's closets? to
show us his personality, his life, a glimpse into his world.
watching cycling out of context, just a a bunch of dudes on
bikes, would be pretty boring.

[Curtis L. Russell]

On 3 May 2005 20:33:50 -0700, wrote:

>It seems simple to me, but people on this list make it seem like if you
>don't
>know Lance personally, you can't have an opinion on the guy.

Not my point. Have an opinion of the guy, just don't turn itinto a
thesis. Thinking he's an asshole is one thing: projecting his
relationship with Landis based on a single gesture or comment and then
trying to place it into the bike racing universe is IMO going a bit
beyond and overboard. Especially a gesture made at the end of a bike
race.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

[Curtis L. Russell]

On Tue, 03 May 2005 18:06:45 -0700, Tim Lines >
wrote:

>Curtis, what's wrong with you? You're making sense and this is, you
>know, rbr. Acknowledging your limitations in divining the thoughts and
>intentions of others is realistic and commendable but ... WE JUST DON'T
>GET IT! Quit wasting our time.

I know why you really said that...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

[[email protected]]

Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> Thinking he's an asshole is one thing: projecting his
> relationship with Landis based on a single gesture or comment and
then
> trying to place it into the bike racing universe is IMO going a bit
> beyond and overboard.

Not at all. The way I read the new VeloNews article, his assessment of
the Floyd/Lance relationship seems right on target. There's bad blood.
Apparently even the roadside fans picked up on it, some of them
marking out the word "Lance" on their "Lance Fan" posters and repacing
it with "Floyd." Just as in this forum, people are choosing sides
based on their perceptions, which are always going to be imperfectly
informed. But, hey, that's what sports fans do.

Besides, in this case one needn't base one's preception about the way
Lance gets along with guys who have left his team, including Floyd, on
a single gesture. There's a pattern, and the gesture was perfectly
consistent with that pattern. The hyper-competitive Lance forms and
holds grudges. So did Michael Jordan. Some people like that style;
some don't. Both are entitled to have opinions about it and voice
them.

[Tim Lines]

Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On Tue, 03 May 2005 18:06:45 -0700, Tim Lines >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Curtis, what's wrong with you? You're making sense and this is, you
>>know, rbr. Acknowledging your limitations in divining the thoughts and
>>intentions of others is realistic and commendable but ... WE JUST DON'T
>>GET IT! Quit wasting our time.
>
>
> I know why you really said that...
>

I guess this means you know me better than you know your own wife.

<sigh> ... this isn't going to turn into another one of those gay
threads, is it?

[Curtis L. Russell]

On Wed, 04 May 2005 16:53:54 -0700, Tim Lines >
wrote:

>
>I guess this means you know me better than you know your own wife.
>
><sigh> ... this isn't going to turn into another one of those gay
>threads, is it?

No, as the lack of understanding is part of the fun when it comes to
datig, marriage and all that. OTOH, you'd think that after 20 years
she could accept that eating cold pizza from the frig for breakfast is
a relatively normal thing.

Its not like I'm having a beer with it. Cold pizza and diet pepsi says
Saturday morning like few other things...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

[[email protected]]

Rik Van Diesel wrote:
> Lance is a dick. Landis is one nice guy.

Yes, as you know them both so well.

[[email protected]]

Wait. I guy points to another and then to the clock, and then states
shortly after the race that the only way he sprinted away was because
of he was unsure about time bonuses and thought it was going to be
close.

If anything this indicates that Lance likely didn't know if the time
gap was enough to put his boy into first place. You think as he is
sprinting up to the line he is doing the math? Just because we knewn
the exact time doesn't mean Lance did. Seems to me that everyone is
project their knowledge base onto a guy who was obviously not that
informed on the status of the GC as he crossed the line.

I would say it is at least probable that Lance was just saying hey the
reason I attacked you is because of the time because he didn't know
that his boy had won be nine seconds.

Even if he was taunting. Which speaks more to character? Reminding
someone who you gave a chance when known else would, when his career
was pretty much at it's lowest point only to have him leave your
orginization for more cash once he made it big, that your boy, your
team, has won. Or being the guy who ditches out on the team who picked
him up and made him a star. It seems clear from things Lance has said
that he felt pretty betrayed by Floyd defection. Don't tell me that
changing teams is just cycling. So is celebrating a GC win.

[Jonathan v.d. Sluis]

> schreef in bericht
oups.com...
....
> If anything this indicates that Lance likely didn't know if the time
> gap was enough to put his boy into first place. You think as he is
> sprinting up to the line he is doing the math? Just because we knewn
> the exact time doesn't mean Lance did.

It's reasonable to assume he did. Not that it really changes the discussion;
I can think of a lot of ways the 'taunting' gesture might be interpreted
friendly. Still think Armstrong is an ass, though.