Doping -- Le Monde editorial

[AMG]

The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that the
TdF may not be free of doping, despite the extensive urine and blood testing
that is now performed under the direction of the UCI. While not an
accusation, the article notes that the average speed of stage winners this
year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year preceding
the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.

The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate conditions
were ideal this year, and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or (2)
New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into play.
The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not
disputed, since they are essentially a public record.

For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York
Times -- a fairly well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum newspaper
(rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports rag. I
don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to grind
with the TdF.

The article (in French) is available by going to www.lemonde.fr. In the box
at upper left entitled Rechercher, type in "dopage" (no quotes needed) and
click the arrow. On the list of articles that comes up, look for "Un Tour
trop vite?" Right now it seems to be the second article listed, and for the
moment, at least, it is available for free. I don't know of an English
version, but I know there are at least a few francophones out there who
might find this of interest...

------------

[Lindsay]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:00:22 +0200, "AMG" > wrote:

>For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York
>Times -- a fairly well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum newspaper
>(rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports rag. I
>don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to grind
>with the TdF.

I'm sorry but with the way Le Monde throws out the accusation of
doping so easily Le Monde is more on the lines of the NY Post, or at
least the Blair written articles of the NY Times.

Lindsay
----------------------------
"One of the annoying things about believing in free
will and individual responsibility is the difficulty
of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And
when you do find somebody, it's remarkable how often
his picture turns up on your driver's license."

P.J. O'Rourke

[Ed-D]

"AMG" > wrote in message
...
> The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that the
> TdF may not be free of doping, despite the extensive urine and blood testing
> that is now performed under the direction of the UCI. While not an
> accusation, the article notes that the average speed of stage winners this
> year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year preceding
> the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.
>
> The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate conditions
> were ideal this year, and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or (2)
> New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into play.
> The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not
> disputed, since they are essentially a public record.
>
> For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York
> Times -- a fairly well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum newspaper

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

> (rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports rag.

That is true.

> I
> don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to grind
> with the TdF.
>

I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous axes
to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main forces
behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

> The article (in French) is available by going to www.lemonde.fr. In the box
> at upper left entitled Rechercher, type in "dopage" (no quotes needed) and
> click the arrow. On the list of articles that comes up, look for "Un Tour
> trop vite?" Right now it seems to be the second article listed, and for the
> moment, at least, it is available for free. I don't know of an English
> version, but I know there are at least a few francophones out there who
> might find this of interest...
>
> ------------
>
>
>

[Michael]

"AMG" > wrote in message
...

>
> The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate conditions
> were ideal this year, and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or (2)
> New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into play.
> The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not
> disputed, since they are essentially a public record.

How about better equipment, better training regimens, and better
tactics?

No wonder the French can't win anymore.

M.

[Rico X. Partay]

"Ed-D" > wrote in message
...

> actually Le Monde is pretty left wing.
> So too is the NY Times.


The NY Times left wing? Bwahahaha! Left of Genghis Kahn, you
mean.

[Clovis Lark]

Ed-D > wrote:
> "AMG" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that the
>> TdF may not be free of doping, despite the extensive urine and blood testing
>> that is now performed under the direction of the UCI. While not an
>> accusation, the article notes that the average speed of stage winners this
>> year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year preceding
>> the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.
>>
>> The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate conditions
>> were ideal this year, and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or (2)
>> New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into play.
>> The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not
>> disputed, since they are essentially a public record.
>>
>> For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York
>> Times -- a fairly well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum newspaper

> actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

Actually, not.

>> (rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports rag.

> That is true.

>> I
>> don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to grind
>> with the TdF.
>>

> I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous axes
> to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
> Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main forces
> behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

What has this to do with the content of the article?

>> The article (in French) is available by going to www.lemonde.fr. In the box
>> at upper left entitled Rechercher, type in "dopage" (no quotes needed) and
>> click the arrow. On the list of articles that comes up, look for "Un Tour
>> trop vite?" Right now it seems to be the second article listed, and for the
>> moment, at least, it is available for free. I don't know of an English
>> version, but I know there are at least a few francophones out there who
>> might find this of interest...
>>
>> ------------
>>
>>
>>

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

"Clovis Lark" > wrote in message
...
> Ed-D
> > I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has
numerous axes
> > to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies,
and
> > Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the
main forces
> > behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.
>
> What has this to do with the content of the article?


The article was an editorial. As such it is almost expected to
reflect the biases of the writers or the paper as a whole.

JT

--
*******************************************
NB: reply-to address is munged

Visit http://www.jt10000.com
*******************************************

[Ilan Vardi]

Le Monde is the "intellectual" newspaper, in the sense that French society
is extremely polarised: people either read Le Monde or L'Equipe but
not both. As far as I can tell, the only interest Le Monde has in bike
racing is to continually insinuate that all bike racers are dopers,
including completely erroneous reasoning, such as finishing articles
with: "Armstrong's cancer, whose presence has still not been explained."
Or course, anyone with any knowledge of epidemeology knows that you
can't explain any one single cancer, except for a few exceptions like
the one you get from asbestos or plutonium.

As for the increased racing speed compared to previous years, it's
clear that, apart from good weather, the UCI rankings, internationalisation
of the race, and no more "patrons" are all responsable. In particular,
in the old Hinault day you went 30 kph at the start, or else Hinault
would seek you out and make sure you got dropped. Also, riders realise
that winning a stage will make their whole career, so you now see
the race starting from the gun, which almost never happened, even in
1999. The first mountain stage this year literally started this way,
with an attack as soon as the start was given, whereas in 1999, it
was a procession for the first climb, with Cipollini at the front
for the whole climb.
I bet that they didn't mention any of this in the article.

I've having to say all this stuff all the time recently, and I'm
getting pretty annoyed by it.

-ilan

[benjo maso]

"Ed-D" > wrote in message
...
> "AMG" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that
the
> > TdF may not be free of doping, despite the extensive urine and blood
testing
> > that is now performed under the direction of the UCI. While not an
> > accusation, the article notes that the average speed of stage winners
this
> > year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year
preceding
> > the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.
> >
> > The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate
conditions
> > were ideal this year, and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or
(2)
> > New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into
play.
> > The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not
> > disputed, since they are essentially a public record.
> >
> > For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York
> > Times -- a fairly well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum
newspaper
>
> actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.
>
> > (rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports rag.
>
> That is true.
>
> > I
> > don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to
grind
> > with the TdF.
> >
>
> I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous
axes
> to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
> Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main
forces
> behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.


Of course, Le Monde must be left-wing or anti-American or both, because it
cant be true what it's writing. Sure, there are doping products that cannot
be detected, but it's impossible to imagine that professional riders would
use it. They all dead against it (except Pantani and Rumsas of course). It's
just a coïncidence that two years ago the police discovered that 37 riders
were in possession of illicit drugs and that none of them had tested
positive. And what about that average speed? Must have been the heat. It's
true that before the Tour of 1999 Leblanc was expecting that now that the
riders were "clean" that the average speed would drop from 39,98 to 37, and
that it rose to 40,276 instead, but what knows Leblanc about racing?
Besides, although he is politically a right-winger, he's French, so he can't
be trusted anyway.

Benjo Maso

[Ed-D]

"Rico X. Partay" > wrote in message
et...
> "Ed-D" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > actually Le Monde is pretty left wing.
> > So too is the NY Times.
>
>
> The NY Times left wing? Bwahahaha! Left of Genghis Kahn, you
> mean.
>

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that the
Times is left-of-center.

[Ed-D]

"Clovis Lark" > wrote in message
...
> Ed-D > wrote:
> > "AMG" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that
the
> >> TdF may not be free of doping, despite the extensive urine and blood
testing
> >> that is now performed under the direction of the UCI. While not an
> >> accusation, the article notes that the average speed of stage winners
this
> >> year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year
preceding
> >> the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.
> >>
> >> The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate conditions
> >> were ideal this year, and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or
(2)
> >> New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into play.
> >> The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not
> >> disputed, since they are essentially a public record.
> >>
> >> For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York
> >> Times -- a fairly well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum
newspaper
>
> > actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.
>
> Actually, not.

well if you say so....

>
> >> (rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports rag.
>
> > That is true.
>
> >> I
> >> don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to
grind
> >> with the TdF.
> >>
>
> > I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous
axes
> > to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
> > Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main
forces
> > behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.
>
> What has this to do with the content of the article?
>

Besides the fact that it is hardly unusual for Le Monde to try to taint the
achievements of Americans everywhere? Well, nothing I guess....

> >> The article (in French) is available by going to www.lemonde.fr. In the
box
> >> at upper left entitled Rechercher, type in "dopage" (no quotes needed)
and
> >> click the arrow. On the list of articles that comes up, look for "Un Tour
> >> trop vite?" Right now it seems to be the second article listed, and for
the
> >> moment, at least, it is available for free. I don't know of an English
> >> version, but I know there are at least a few francophones out there who
> >> might find this of interest...
> >>
> >> ------------
> >>
> >>
> >>
>

[Ken Prager]

In article >,
"Ed-D" > wrote:

> "Rico X. Partay" > wrote in message
> et...
> > "Ed-D" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > actually Le Monde is pretty left wing.
> > > So too is the NY Times.
> >
> >
> > The NY Times left wing? Bwahahaha! Left of Genghis Kahn, you
> > mean.
> >
>
> Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that the
> Times is left-of-center.

Pretty much any organization the uses reason will end up being
left-of-center.

KP

--
Remove _me_ for e-mail address

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Ken Prager" > wrote in message
...
>
> Pretty much any organization the uses reason will end up being
> left-of-center.




You know what's funny?


NASCAR only turns left.





Dat durn Dail Urnhard shore was fast.

<place hand over heart>

<hang head>


Where one a dem durn syclists? I gots to run won a dem off da rode!

[trg]

Sponsors pay big bucks and want a stage win or their name mentions 100s of
times in a breakaway. I'd like to see a chart of when the number and
distance of breakaways in the last 30 years. The get away from kilometer 0.

Le Monde has several articles recently insinuating doping with absolutely no
links to back it up other than this idea that they're going so fast that
they must be doping (overlooking about 20 other cumulative effects that
could explain faster speeds.) It's quite tiresome.


"Ilan Vardi" > a écrit dans le message de
om...
> Le Monde is the "intellectual" newspaper, in the sense that French society
> is extremely polarised: people either read Le Monde or L'Equipe but
> not both. As far as I can tell, the only interest Le Monde has in bike
> racing is to continually insinuate that all bike racers are dopers,
> including completely erroneous reasoning, such as finishing articles
> with: "Armstrong's cancer, whose presence has still not been explained."
> Or course, anyone with any knowledge of epidemeology knows that you
> can't explain any one single cancer, except for a few exceptions like
> the one you get from asbestos or plutonium.
>
> As for the increased racing speed compared to previous years, it's
> clear that, apart from good weather, the UCI rankings,
internationalisation
> of the race, and no more "patrons" are all responsable. In particular,
> in the old Hinault day you went 30 kph at the start, or else Hinault
> would seek you out and make sure you got dropped. Also, riders realise
> that winning a stage will make their whole career, so you now see
> the race starting from the gun, which almost never happened, even in
> 1999. The first mountain stage this year literally started this way,
> with an attack as soon as the start was given, whereas in 1999, it
> was a procession for the first climb, with Cipollini at the front
> for the whole climb.
> I bet that they didn't mention any of this in the article.
>
> I've having to say all this stuff all the time recently, and I'm
> getting pretty annoyed by it.
>
> -ilan


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 25/07/2003

[Ken Prager]

In article >,
"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote:

> "Ken Prager" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Pretty much any organization the uses reason will end up being
> > left-of-center.
>
>
>
>
> You know what's funny?
>
>
> NASCAR only turns left.
>
>
>
>
>
> Dat durn Dail Urnhard shore was fast.
>
> <place hand over heart>
>
> <hang head>
>
>
> Where one a dem durn syclists? I gots to run won a dem off da rode!
>
>

I have a friend who is reasonably intelligent (he has an MD) but
strangely enough is a NASCAR fan. I asked him once what was up with
the "3" sticker and here was his reply...


> KP,
>
> Actually, the 3 sticker you have been seeing represents the car number of the
> late Dale Earnhardt. In NASCAR vernacular drivers and teams are often
> discussed by simply using the number of the car as a description for the
> driver, the racin' team and even for a lifestyle. For example, a conversation
> at the Talledega Alabama speedway might go something like this:
>
> "You know BillyBob that 3 car used to ride up under that wimp 24 car harder
> than granpa used to ride into your cracker ass in the trailer"
>
> Well known for his aggressive style of driving, Earnhardt was nicknamed the
> "Intimidator". It is not surprising that you have been nearly run down by
> fans with 3 car stickers. This type of Earnhardt fan is no doubt expressing
> loyalty to his fallen hero by displaying the aggressive style of driving
> which made Dale famous.
>
> A bike is meant to have horsepower and make a lot of noise, if it does not,
> then it is insulting to everthing that makes this country great (ie. Bud,
> Ford Chevy or Dodge, Harley Davidson, Smith and Wesson). Upon encountering
> anything that is "counterculture", like pedaling a bike, the 3 car fan should
> immediately "put the hammer down" and rid the country of another sissy
> californian like that wimp Gordon.
>
> I hope this has been helpful to explain some of these close encounters you
> have had.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> JS

--
Remove _me_ for e-mail address

[Ernst Blofeld]

Ilan Vardi wrote:

> As for the increased racing speed compared to previous years, it's
> clear that, apart from good weather, the UCI rankings, internationalisation
> of the race, and no more "patrons" are all responsable.

Yeah. I think there are more early breaks by obscure riders on the
flat stages in an effort to gain publicity and perhaps a stage win.
The publicity value of a stage win has gone up dramatically in recent
years, which makes more riders and managers willing to risk it. As
a result the leading teams are riding more tempo early in the
race to control gaps, and the pack really kicks into gear in the
last 50 km as several sprinter teams chase to catch breaks
before the finish and set up their guy.

It's not so much that the maximum performance has increased as
that the riders are working harder for more of the race.

[Ed-D]

"Ken Prager" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Ed-D" > wrote:
>
> > "Rico X. Partay" > wrote in message
> > et...
> > > "Ed-D" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > > actually Le Monde is pretty left wing.
> > > > So too is the NY Times.
> > >
> > >
> > > The NY Times left wing? Bwahahaha! Left of Genghis Kahn, you
> > > mean.
> > >
> >
> > Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that the
> > Times is left-of-center.
>
> Pretty much any organization the uses reason will end up being
> left-of-center.
>

Oh great. The insinuation being that only liberals use reason. I get it.

> KP
>
> --
> Remove _me_ for e-mail address

[Ed-D]

"Arthur Ogus" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Ed-D
> > wrote:
>
> > "Rico X. Partay" > wrote in message
> > et...
> > > "Ed-D" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > > actually Le Monde is pretty left wing.
> > > >
>
> > >
> >
> > Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that the
> > Times is left-of-center.
> >
>
> "Well-known" thanks to the relentness campaign of the right-wing.

uh, no actually that's not why. Paris has something like six or seven daily
newspapers, ranging from Le Figaro (which is considered conservative) to
l'Humanite (Communist). Le Monde is definitely on the left of that spectrum.

> Meaningless nonetheless.

[Tom Kunich]

"Ken Prager" > wrote in message
...
>
> Pretty much any organization the uses reason will end up being
> left-of-center.

Somebody here is pretty off-center. And stupid as well.

[Lindsay]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:18:25 -0700, Ken Prager >
wrote:

>> Well known for his aggressive style of driving, Earnhardt was nicknamed the
>> "Intimidator". It is not surprising that you have been nearly run down by
>> fans with 3 car stickers. This type of Earnhardt fan is no doubt expressing
>> loyalty to his fallen hero by displaying the aggressive style of driving
>> which made Dale famous.

Dale died pulling an idiot move trying to block someone who was in
third place to ensure they would not come in second. Dumbass Dale
owned the cars that were in 1st and 2nd place at the time.

Dumbass Dale died.

Lindsay
----------------------------
"One of the annoying things about believing in free
will and individual responsibility is the difficulty
of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And
when you do find somebody, it's remarkable how often
his picture turns up on your driver's license."

P.J. O'Rourke

[Ed-D]

"Arthur Ogus" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that
the
> > > > Times is left-of-center.
> > > >
> > >
> > > "Well-known" thanks to the relentness campaign of the right-wing.
> >
> > uh, no actually that's not why. Paris has something like six or seven
daily
> > newspapers, ranging from Le Figaro (which is considered conservative) to
> > l'Humanite (Communist). Le Monde is definitely on the left of that
spectrum.
> >
> > > Meaningless nonetheless.
>
> I was talking, as was the earlier poster, about the New York Times.
>

well if you really think the NY Times is only viewed as "left wing" because of
a "right wing conspiracy" I suggest you need to adjust your medication.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Lindsay" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:18:25 -0700, Ken Prager >
> wrote:
>
> >> Well known for his aggressive style of driving, Earnhardt was nicknamed
the
> >> "Intimidator". It is not surprising that you have been nearly run down
by
> >> fans with 3 car stickers. This type of Earnhardt fan is no doubt
expressing
> >> loyalty to his fallen hero by displaying the aggressive style of
driving
> >> which made Dale famous.
>
> Dale died pulling an idiot move trying to block someone who was in
> third place to ensure they would not come in second. Dumbass Dale
> owned the cars that were in 1st and 2nd place at the time.



Or trying to ensure they wouldn't come in third. 1st and 2nd were way ahead
(considering it was the last lap).


You're right though. Dumbass move.

[Tim Lines]

Ed-D wrote:


> Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that the
> Times is left-of-center.

Yah. I heard Rush Limbaugh say so just the other day.

[Robert Chung]

"Ed-D" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > What has this to do with the content of the article?
>
> Besides the fact that it is hardly unusual for Le Monde to try to taint
the
> achievements of Americans everywhere? Well, nothing I guess....

You think the basis for the article was anti-Americanism?? This shows that
you have neither the context nor the history to evaluate the article.
Perhaps this has escaped you but the French don't really consider the TdF to
be an American event.

The article would almost certainly have been written the same way no matter
who won. Le Monde made a huge deal about the Festina affair, and the Giro
doping raids, and the Rumsas affair, and even the pot belge case in
Perpignan (which was an inconsequential trial connected to French *amateur*
racing). For reasons that have nothing to do with anti-Americanism and
everything to do with the way cycling is perceived in France by the French,
and who promotes cycling in France to the French, Le Monde is
anti-*cycling.*

I know it's simpler to view everything that happens in the world as
pro-American or anti-American and it's simpler to view everything as
left-wing or right-wing but, in this instance, you've been led astray by not
doing your homework, dumbass.

[Robert Chung]

"Ilan Vardi" > wrote in message
om...
> Le Monde is the "intellectual" newspaper, in the sense that French society
> is extremely polarised: people either read Le Monde or L'Equipe but
> not both.

I read Le Monde and L'Equipe -- but then I sort of enjoy the buzz that
cognitive dissonance brings.

[Ilan Vardi]

"trg" > wrote in message >...
>
> Le Monde has several articles recently insinuating doping with absolutely no
> links to back it up other than this idea that they're going so fast that
> they must be doping (overlooking about 20 other cumulative effects that
> could explain faster speeds.) It's quite tiresome.

There is a similar phenomenon happening now in Track and Field in which
Paula Radcliffe is now being suspected of doping due to her world
records in the marathon, when she had previously been the most
outspoken person against doping. There is absolutely no evidence
against her, of course.

-ilan

[Jay Hill]

Ed-D wrote:
> Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge
that the
> Times is left-of-center.

Common knowledge among whom? Dittoheads? So you think every one of
the thousands of employees at the Times takes a little liberal truth
test and swears fealty to Jesse Jackson & Hillary Clinton?

[Steve Blankenship]

"Jay Hill" > wrote in message
. ..

> Common knowledge among whom? Dittoheads? So you think every one of
> the thousands of employees at the Times takes a little liberal truth
> test and swears fealty to Jesse Jackson & Hillary Clinton?
>

So you think "every one of the thousands of employees at the Times" has
anything whatsoever to say about editorial content? Consider the full
political spectrum of print media in the States and the editorial bent of
the NYT will indeed fall left of center. Arguing about to what extent is
really not proper fodder for this NG, and besides; so what? That just
degenerates into yet another variation of "I'm normal and you're not."
****, if we were normal, we'd all be doing something useful instead of
reading RBR. Like watching Regis and Whoever.

So - let's get back to proper RBR stuff like whether LA's a doper and
whether Bobke and Kirsten were hitting it in the TDF.

[Clovis Lark]

Lindsay > wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:18:25 -0700, Ken Prager >
> wrote:

>>> Well known for his aggressive style of driving, Earnhardt was nicknamed the
>>> "Intimidator". It is not surprising that you have been nearly run down by
>>> fans with 3 car stickers. This type of Earnhardt fan is no doubt expressing
>>> loyalty to his fallen hero by displaying the aggressive style of driving
>>> which made Dale famous.

> Dale died pulling an idiot move trying to block someone who was in
> third place to ensure they would not come in second. Dumbass Dale
> owned the cars that were in 1st and 2nd place at the time.

> Dumbass Dale died.

Please, here we need proper ettiquette. THe proper term is "Dumb Ass"...

> Lindsay
> ----------------------------
> "One of the annoying things about believing in free
> will and individual responsibility is the difficulty
> of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And
> when you do find somebody, it's remarkable how often
> his picture turns up on your driver's license."

> P.J. O'Rourke

[Clovis Lark]

John Forrest Tomlinson > wrote:
> "Clovis Lark" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Ed-D
>> > I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has
> numerous axes
>> > to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies,
> and
>> > Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the
> main forces
>> > behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.
>>
>> What has this to do with the content of the article?


> The article was an editorial. As such it is almost expected to
> reflect the biases of the writers or the paper as a whole.

The comment above is noting that the paper has certain "issues", but has
no reference to the actual article. I wonder whether the poster even read
it. That's why I made my comment.

> JT

> --
> *******************************************
> NB: reply-to address is munged

> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> *******************************************

[Clovis Lark]

Robert Chung > wrote:

> "Ed-D" > wrote in message
> ...
>> >
>> > What has this to do with the content of the article?
>>
>> Besides the fact that it is hardly unusual for Le Monde to try to taint
> the
>> achievements of Americans everywhere? Well, nothing I guess....

> You think the basis for the article was anti-Americanism?? This shows that
> you have neither the context nor the history to evaluate the article.
> Perhaps this has escaped you but the French don't really consider the TdF to
> be an American event.

> The article would almost certainly have been written the same way no matter
> who won. Le Monde made a huge deal about the Festina affair, and the Giro
> doping raids, and the Rumsas affair, and even the pot belge case in
> Perpignan (which was an inconsequential trial connected to French *amateur*
> racing). For reasons that have nothing to do with anti-Americanism and
> everything to do with the way cycling is perceived in France by the French,
> and who promotes cycling in France to the French, Le Monde is
> anti-*cycling.*

> I know it's simpler to view everything that happens in the world as
> pro-American or anti-American and it's simpler to view everything as
> left-wing or right-wing but, in this instance, you've been led astray by not
> doing your homework, dumbass.

Perhaps he has a #3 decal on his bike?

[Van Hoorebeeck Bart]

Robert Chung schreef:

" you've been led astray by not doing your homework, dumbass.

I have been tempted to say Dumbass many times recently.

Eventually I will, to defend Kurgan and RBR Values.

[Daniel Connelly]

Ed-D wrote:

>> the article notes that the average speed of stage winners this
>>year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year preceding
>>the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.


2003 : 3427 km ( http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=stages )
1997 : 3942 km ( http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?id=results/history/tdfhistory )

[benjo maso]

"Daniel Connelly" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Ed-D wrote:
>
> >> the article notes that the average speed of stage winners this
> >>year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year
preceding
> >>the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.
>
>
> 2003 : 3427 km ( http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=stages )
> 1997 : 3942 km (
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?id=results/history/tdfhistory )
>

Average speed 1997: 39,273
2003: 40,956

A difference of almost 1,7 km/h. Only a little bit more than between 1997
and 1962 (4272 km, average speed 37,304).

Benjo Maso

[Jay Hill]

Steve Blankenship wrote:
> "Jay Hill" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>
>>Common knowledge among whom? Dittoheads? So you think every one of
>>the thousands of employees at the Times takes a little liberal truth
>>test and swears fealty to Jesse Jackson & Hillary Clinton?
>>
> So you think "every one of the thousands of employees at the Times" has
> anything whatsoever to say about editorial content?

No, I don't, which is my point. The yahoos, such as the one I
responded to, that mechanically say the Times is attacking good
conservative morals think all of the Times' writers, not just the
editorial writers, are on a liberal-driven agenda, which is
poppycock. Overall, the editorial writers aren't even unusually
immoderate, unless your perspective is that of a dittohead.

> political spectrum of print media in the States and the editorial bent of
> the NYT will indeed fall left of center.

Bull****. The Times is driven by money, not politics. If they were
unusually active in any political respect they wouldn't be as
consistently successful as they have been for the 150 years they've
been around.

[Steve Blankenship]

"Jay Hill" > wrote in message
. ..
> Steve Blankenship wrote:
> > "Jay Hill" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> >
> >
> >>Common knowledge among whom? Dittoheads? So you think every one of
> >>the thousands of employees at the Times takes a little liberal truth
> >>test and swears fealty to Jesse Jackson & Hillary Clinton?
> >>
> > So you think "every one of the thousands of employees at the Times" has
> > anything whatsoever to say about editorial content?
>
> No, I don't, which is my point. The yahoos, such as the one I
> responded to, that mechanically say the Times is attacking good
> conservative morals think all of the Times' writers, not just the
> editorial writers, are on a liberal-driven agenda, which is
> poppycock. Overall, the editorial writers aren't even unusually
> immoderate, unless your perspective is that of a dittohead.

Unless my newsreader's faulty, I don't recall the poster you responded to
making any such comments, only a much more narrow and general statement
about the NYT's relative politcal position. You obviously are bringing
something more to the table, as evidenced by your repeated references to
Limbaugh. As I said, it just degenerates into an argument based on who's
"perspective" is closer to the "center" (read true, right and virtuous), and
that's an endless argument. The center, after all, only exists as defined
by the extremes and has no more inherent claim to truth or correctness than
any other perspective.

> > political spectrum of print media in the States and the editorial bent
of
> > the NYT will indeed fall left of center.
>
> Bull****. The Times is driven by money, not politics. If they were
> unusually active in any political respect they wouldn't be as
> consistently successful as they have been for the 150 years they've
> been around.
>

I take it you disagree! Fine, but the idea that a significant portion of
the political left is not financially-motivated is ludicrous. You don't
need to be a full-on Marxist to be left of center, and no one's confusing
the NYT with for instance, The Nation. It's not black and white - there's a
broad spectrum on both sides of center, and for sure the NYT is closer to
the center than plenty of other publications - on both sides.

Anyway, since I did say I thought this OT thread wasn't proper fodder for
this NG, I'll stop my hypocrisy here and go back to arguing about how much
better a sprinter Ulrich is than that wuss Petacchi. Last word's yours if
you want it...

[Keith]

>> I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous axes
>> to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
>> Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main forces
>> behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.
>
>What has this to do with the content of the article?

Doping, maybe ?

[Keith]

>Le Monde is the "intellectual" newspaper, in the sense that French society
>is extremely polarised: people either read Le Monde or L'Equipe but
>not both.

Not true a lot of French intellectuals read L'Equipe too. Generally,
people read either Le Monde or Le Figaro.

>As far as I can tell, the only interest Le Monde has in bike
>racing is to continually insinuate that all bike racers are dopers,
>including completely erroneous reasoning, such as finishing articles
>with: "Armstrong's cancer, whose presence has still not been explained."
>Or course, anyone with any knowledge of epidemeology knows that you
>can't explain any one single cancer, except for a few exceptions like
>the one you get from asbestos or plutonium.

>As for the increased racing speed compared to previous years, it's
>clear that, apart from good weather, the UCI rankings, internationalisation
>of the race, and no more "patrons" are all responsable. In particular,
>in the old Hinault day you went 30 kph at the start, or else Hinault
>would seek you out and make sure you got dropped. Also, riders realise
>that winning a stage will make their whole career, so you now see
>the race starting from the gun, which almost never happened, even in
>1999. The first mountain stage this year literally started this way,
>with an attack as soon as the start was given, whereas in 1999, it
>was a procession for the first climb, with Cipollini at the front
>for the whole climb.

Very good points, I hadn't been looking at things this way

[Jonathan v.d. Sluis]

Ed-D > schreef in berichtnieuws
...
> ...I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous
axes
> to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
> Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main
forces
> behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong....

I really have a lot of trouble envisioning how accusing the peloton of the
TdF can be construed as anti-american in any way. After all, only 4 riders
out of a 147 who finished (and with that, actually contributed to the high
average speed) were from the USA. It's not a race organised nor dominated by
Americans. I don't read Le Monde, so i'll leave you to your imaginations of
whatever bias that newspaper might have, but such allegations of doping use
are not anti-american.

Ofcourse, stating that the peloton uses doping implies that Armstrong has
also used it - especially since he's the one who set that new speed record
(even though it has to be pointed out that, for example, Ullrich's average
speed is not much different). He did so several times since Pantani, in
fact. If some kind of dope is in use, then I would not expect Armstrong to
be an exception. He needs to keep up, he has obligations, people around him
depend on his success, it can't be detected, and without it he would be at a
disadvantage. I'm not saying he's guilty, but if there is still a lot of
doping, then Armstrong probably uses it, just as one can assume Indurain
used EPO.

I'm inclined to believe that there still is doping in the peloton (so, if
you're wondering, yes I do think that Armstrong has used it). The high
average speed seems to confirm it, but also the fact that riders would
attack right at the beginning of 200+ km stages, after days of fast riding,
in hot weather. Perhaps it was a bit naive of tour organisers to think that
shorter stages would end the doping problem; all it seems to have done is
make riders go faster and attack earlier.

I don't think doping will leave the sport. My biggest regret about it is
that the public opinion is mostly concerned with catching individual riders
and then destroying their careers - Pantani being a case in point. The
consequences he suffered haven't really been fair if you think about how
many riders have used EPO. But otherwise, riders like Armstrong, Ullrich and
other GC riders can shoot what they want for all I care. I just hope they
have the sense to consult a doctor.

Jonathan.

[trg]

I think Le Monde pretty much represents the center these days. Le Canard
Enchainé, Libé, L'Humanité, are definitely to the left of Lemonde. Of course
that's center in terms of French politics. In US terms they're left.

"Ed-D" > a écrit dans le message de
...
> "Arthur Ogus" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, Ed-D
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > "Rico X. Partay" > wrote in message
> > > et...
> > > > "Ed-D" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > actually Le Monde is pretty left wing.
> > > > >
> >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that
the
> > > Times is left-of-center.
> > >
> >
> > "Well-known" thanks to the relentness campaign of the right-wing.
>
> uh, no actually that's not why. Paris has something like six or seven
daily
> newspapers, ranging from Le Figaro (which is considered conservative) to
> l'Humanite (Communist). Le Monde is definitely on the left of that
spectrum.
>
> > Meaningless nonetheless.
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 25/07/2003

[Ilan Vardi]

"Robert Chung" > wrote in message >...
>
> You think the basis for the article was anti-Americanism?? This shows that
> you have neither the context nor the history to evaluate the article.
> Perhaps this has escaped you but the French don't really consider the TdF to
> be an American event.
>
> The article would almost certainly have been written the same way no matter
> who won. Le Monde made a huge deal about the Festina affair, and the Giro
> doping raids, and the Rumsas affair, and even the pot belge case in
> Perpignan (which was an inconsequential trial connected to French *amateur*
> racing). For reasons that have nothing to do with anti-Americanism and
> everything to do with the way cycling is perceived in France by the French,
> and who promotes cycling in France to the French, Le Monde is
> anti-*cycling.*

A completely correct analysis, in my opinion.

Things may changing though. I was at the bookstore "L'Ecume des Pages"
which is adjacent to the Cafe de Flore where the pretentious royalty
of French Intellectualism used to congregate (Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir,
and now BHL = Bernard Henri Levy, unknown outside France, but
successor to Sartre, and "rock star" philosopher married to screen
diva Arielle Dombasle) and the salesman was
loudly going off about Beloki's crash and Armstrong's amazing save.

-ilan

[Ed-D]

"trg" > wrote in message
...
> I think Le Monde pretty much represents the center these days. Le Canard
> Enchainé, Libé, L'Humanité, are definitely to the left of Lemonde. Of course
> that's center in terms of French politics. In US terms they're left.
>

not only left, far left.

> "Ed-D" > a écrit dans le message de
> ...
> > "Arthur Ogus" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >, Ed-D
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Rico X. Partay" > wrote in message
> > > > et...
> > > > > "Ed-D" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > > actually Le Monde is pretty left wing.
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that
> the
> > > > Times is left-of-center.
> > > >
> > >
> > > "Well-known" thanks to the relentness campaign of the right-wing.
> >
> > uh, no actually that's not why. Paris has something like six or seven
> daily
> > newspapers, ranging from Le Figaro (which is considered conservative) to
> > l'Humanite (Communist). Le Monde is definitely on the left of that
> spectrum.
> >
> > > Meaningless nonetheless.
> >
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 25/07/2003
>
>

[Ed-D]

"Jay Hill" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ed-D wrote:
> > Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge
> that the
> > Times is left-of-center.
>
> Common knowledge among whom? Dittoheads?

No, among the non-incarcerated, non-institutionalized population of the
Western world. In other words, people very much unlike yourself.

> So you think every one of
> the thousands of employees at the Times takes a little liberal truth
> test and swears fealty to Jesse Jackson & Hillary Clinton?
>

That actually wouldn't surprise me one bit.

[Ed-D]

"Clovis Lark" > wrote in message
...
> Ed-D > wrote:
> > "Clovis Lark" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Ed-D > wrote:
> >> > "AMG" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> >> The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that
> > the
> >> >> TdF may not be free of doping, despite the extensive urine and blood
> > testing
> >> >> that is now performed under the direction of the UCI. While not an
> >> >> accusation, the article notes that the average speed of stage winners
> > this
> >> >> year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year
> > preceding
> >> >> the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.
> >> >>
> >> >> The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate
conditions
> >> >> were ideal this year, and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or
> > (2)
> >> >> New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into
play.
> >> >> The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not
> >> >> disputed, since they are essentially a public record.
> >> >>
> >> >> For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York
> >> >> Times -- a fairly well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum
> > newspaper
> >>
> >> > actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.
> >>
> >> Actually, not.
>
> > well if you say so....
>
> Remembering that it was the NYT that parratted everything that United
> Fruit and the Pentagon stated about Guatemala in the 1950's, remembering
> how the NYT fired Pulitzer Prize winner Sydney Schanberg for taking on the
> biggest landlords in NYC in his OpEd columns, I'd say they left wing is
> hardly a description for the Ochs/Sulzberger families' holding. Recently,
> they were extremely quiet about false claims concerning Iraq.
>

So basically what you have to support your case is a few examples from the
1950s (when most posters to this newsgroup, myself included, weren't even
born) and some heresay about "false claims concerning Iraq". I don't read the
Times much anymore, but if they weren't extremely vocal about the "false
claims concerning Iraq" it's only because they shot themselves in the foot
with their war-time predictions about "overextended supplylines" and
"quagmire". (In fairness they didn't come out as bad as the New Yorker at the
time, who took the opportunity to go on record with predicting "another
Vietnam", thus forever destroying any credibility they might have had on
global politics...although something tells me they had probably used the
Vietnam analogy with every single U.S. military operation since 1975)

> >>
> >> >> (rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports
rag.
> >>
> >> > That is true.
> >>
> >> >> I
> >> >> don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to
> > grind
> >> >> with the TdF.
> >> >>
> >>
> >> > I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous
> > axes
> >> > to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
> >> > Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main
> > forces
> >> > behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.
> >>
> >> What has this to do with the content of the article?
> >>
>
> > Besides the fact that it is hardly unusual for Le Monde to try to taint
the
> > achievements of Americans everywhere? Well, nothing I guess....
>
> I pointed out that it was clear this comment had no knowledge of the
> content of the Le Monde article. It is good to read articles before
> assassinating their messengers.
>

not in this instance. When you're dealing with an organization as nefarious as
Le Monde their reputation precedes them.

> >> >> The article (in French) is available by going to www.lemonde.fr. In
the
> > box
> >> >> at upper left entitled Rechercher, type in "dopage" (no quotes needed)
> > and
> >> >> click the arrow. On the list of articles that comes up, look for "Un
Tour
> >> >> trop vite?" Right now it seems to be the second article listed, and
for
> > the
> >> >> moment, at least, it is available for free. I don't know of an English
> >> >> version, but I know there are at least a few francophones out there
who
> >> >> might find this of interest...
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
>

[Ed-D]

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" > wrote in message
...
> Ed-D > schreef in berichtnieuws
> ...
> > ...I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous
> axes
> > to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
> > Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main
> forces
> > behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong....
>
> I really have a lot of trouble envisioning how accusing the peloton of the
> TdF can be construed as anti-american in any way.

Simple: If that's what the peloton is doing, what does it say about the guy
who is faster than the entire peloton?

> After all, only 4 riders
> out of a 147 who finished (and with that, actually contributed to the high
> average speed) were from the USA. It's not a race organised nor dominated by
> Americans.

Right. It's not like an American has won the last five tours or anything.

> I don't read Le Monde, so i'll leave you to your imaginations of
> whatever bias that newspaper might have, but such allegations of doping use
> are not anti-american.

In this case they are.

>
> Ofcourse, stating that the peloton uses doping implies that Armstrong has
> also used it - especially since he's the one who set that new speed record

duuuuuuuh....yeah

> (even though it has to be pointed out that, for example, Ullrich's average
> speed is not much different). He did so several times since Pantani, in
> fact. If some kind of dope is in use, then I would not expect Armstrong to
> be an exception.

Ah see? Here we go. This is exactly the kind of thinking the article is
trying to encourage.

> He needs to keep up, he has obligations, people around him
> depend on his success, it can't be detected, and without it he would be at a
> disadvantage. I'm not saying he's guilty, but if there is still a lot of
> doping, then Armstrong probably uses it, just as one can assume Indurain
> used EPO.
>
> I'm inclined to believe that there still is doping in the peloton (so, if
> you're wondering, yes I do think that Armstrong has used it).

Do you really think somebody who has survived cancer would take that risk?

> The high
> average speed seems to confirm it, but also the fact that riders would
> attack right at the beginning of 200+ km stages, after days of fast riding,
> in hot weather. Perhaps it was a bit naive of tour organisers to think that
> shorter stages would end the doping problem; all it seems to have done is
> make riders go faster and attack earlier.
>
> I don't think doping will leave the sport. My biggest regret about it is
> that the public opinion is mostly concerned with catching individual riders
> and then destroying their careers - Pantani being a case in point. The
> consequences he suffered haven't really been fair if you think about how
> many riders have used EPO. But otherwise, riders like Armstrong, Ullrich and
> other GC riders can shoot what they want for all I care. I just hope they
> have the sense to consult a doctor.
>
> Jonathan.
>
>

[Clovis Lark]

Ed-D > wrote:

> "Clovis Lark" > wrote in message
> ...
>> John Forrest Tomlinson > wrote:
>> > "Clovis Lark" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >> Ed-D
>> >> > I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has
>> > numerous axes
>> >> > to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies,
>> > and
>> >> > Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the
>> > main forces
>> >> > behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.
>> >>
>> >> What has this to do with the content of the article?
>>
>>
>> > The article was an editorial. As such it is almost expected to
>> > reflect the biases of the writers or the paper as a whole.
>>
>> The comment above is noting that the paper has certain "issues", but has
>> no reference to the actual article. I wonder whether the poster even read
>> it. That's why I made my comment.
>>

> The poster (myself) didn't read the article. He didn't need to. He knows from
> reading past propaganda from Le Monde what to expect from them.

why did your clairvoyance stop with Le Monde? You should have also been
able to scope out this thread and not even bothered reading or posting...

>> > JT
>>
>> > --
>> > *******************************************
>> > NB: reply-to address is munged
>>
>> > Visit http://www.jt10000.com
>> > *******************************************
>>
>>

[Clovis Lark]

Ed-D > wrote:
> "Clovis Lark" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Ed-D > wrote:
>> > "Clovis Lark" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >> Ed-D > wrote:
>> >> > "AMG" > wrote in message
>> >> > ...
>> >> >> The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that
>> > the
>> >> >> TdF may not be free of doping, despite the extensive urine and blood
>> > testing
>> >> >> that is now performed under the direction of the UCI. While not an
>> >> >> accusation, the article notes that the average speed of stage winners
>> > this
>> >> >> year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year
>> > preceding
>> >> >> the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate
> conditions
>> >> >> were ideal this year, and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or
>> > (2)
>> >> >> New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into
> play.
>> >> >> The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not
>> >> >> disputed, since they are essentially a public record.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York
>> >> >> Times -- a fairly well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum
>> > newspaper
>> >>
>> >> > actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.
>> >>
>> >> Actually, not.
>>
>> > well if you say so....
>>
>> Remembering that it was the NYT that parratted everything that United
>> Fruit and the Pentagon stated about Guatemala in the 1950's, remembering
>> how the NYT fired Pulitzer Prize winner Sydney Schanberg for taking on the
>> biggest landlords in NYC in his OpEd columns, I'd say they left wing is
>> hardly a description for the Ochs/Sulzberger families' holding. Recently,
>> they were extremely quiet about false claims concerning Iraq.
>>

> So basically what you have to support your case is a few examples from the
> 1950s (when most posters to this newsgroup, myself included, weren't even
> born) and some heresay about "false claims concerning Iraq". I don't read the

Admitting your age, little boy, was foolish... Demonstrating it is simply
foolhardy...

> Times much anymore, but if they weren't extremely vocal about the "false
> claims concerning Iraq" it's only because they shot themselves in the foot
> with their war-time predictions about "overextended supplylines" and
> "quagmire". (In fairness they didn't come out as bad as the New Yorker at the
> time, who took the opportunity to go on record with predicting "another
> Vietnam", thus forever destroying any credibility they might have had on
> global politics...although something tells me they had probably used the
> Vietnam analogy with every single U.S. military operation since 1975)

What might that something be? Your clairvoyance? Remember, you do't need
to read anything to actually know what its content might be...

>> >>
>> >> >> (rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports
> rag.
>> >>
>> >> > That is true.
>> >>
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to
>> > grind
>> >> >> with the TdF.
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >> > I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous
>> > axes
>> >> > to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and
>> >> > Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main
>> > forces
>> >> > behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.
>> >>
>> >> What has this to do with the content of the article?
>> >>
>>
>> > Besides the fact that it is hardly unusual for Le Monde to try to taint
> the
>> > achievements of Americans everywhere? Well, nothing I guess....
>>
>> I pointed out that it was clear this comment had no knowledge of the
>> content of the Le Monde article. It is good to read articles before
>> assassinating their messengers.
>>

> not in this instance. When you're dealing with an organization as nefarious as
> Le Monde their reputation precedes them.

Do you work for homeland security?

>> >> >> The article (in French) is available by going to www.lemonde.fr. In
> the
>> > box
>> >> >> at upper left entitled Rechercher, type in "dopage" (no quotes needed)
>> > and
>> >> >> click the arrow. On the list of articles that comes up, look for "Un
> Tour
>> >> >> trop vite?" Right now it seems to be the second article listed, and
> for
>> > the
>> >> >> moment, at least, it is available for free. I don't know of an English
>> >> >> version, but I know there are at least a few francophones out there
> who
>> >> >> might find this of interest...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ------------
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>>

[Jonathan v.d. Sluis]

Ed-D > schreef in berichtnieuws
...
> > I really have a lot of trouble envisioning how accusing the peloton of
the
> > TdF can be construed as anti-american in any way.
>
> Simple: If that's what the peloton is doing, what does it say about the
guy
> who is faster than the entire peloton?

He is not personally responsible for the high average speed. Ullrich is just
a minute slower over thousands of kms; is the article anti-german as well?
If you would want to point out who is actually responsible, I'd say it would
be the attackers and the riders leading the peloton. These two decide how
fast a single stage will go. It doesn't matter that much for Armstrong: he
can draft behind a teammate most of the time. A few kms/h is much easier
that way.

>
> > After all, only 4 riders
> > out of a 147 who finished (and with that, actually contributed to the
high
> > average speed) were from the USA. It's not a race organised nor
dominated by
> > Americans.
>
> Right. It's not like an American has won the last five tours or anything.

That is not the same as the domination of a nationality. If you'd walk
around at some place where the tour goes, you'd see how this race is not
dominated by any nationality, not even by the French.

....
> Do you really think somebody who has survived cancer would take that risk?

Yes. And I wonder how big the risk really is, if applied with sense.

Jonathan.

[never_doped]

Translation of the article:




The fifth consecutive success of the American Launches Armstrong will
remain like most difficult to obtain, most dubious, most intelligently
also built, as well Texan dominated its adversaries top of its
experiment more as of its pure class. The memorialists will also retain
that the Turn 2003 was among more haletants and most spectacular of the
history: dehydrations due to the heat wave, falls of all the principal
leaders, veins and bad lucks for Armstrong Lance, fair play of its
principal adversary, Jan Ullrich, and suspense guaranteed until the end,
the day before the arrival in Paris.

Undeniable sporting success, the Turn 2003 will have delighted the
witnesses, always so many on the edges of the roads, the diffusers,
which beat records of audience, and the partners, which are pleased to
see the Outer Loop taking an international character, with the image of
a World cup of football or of a great tennis tournament.

Spectacular, the race will have also been it by the rate/rhythm to which
it was carried out during three weeks. The Turn 2003 is fastest of the
history. Never the time average of the test - calculated according to
the average carried out by each winner of stage - had not been also
high: 40,94 km/h. Launch Armstrong and its following rolled more quickly
in 2003 than in 1999, more quickly than in 1997, the year preceding the
"Festina scandal" , which had revealed the extent of the recourse to
doping in the group, and in particular the use of érythropoïétine (EPO),
a hormone which facilitates the transport of oxygen in blood.

Vis-a-vis this report, two possibilities. One, optimistic: the runners
of Turn 2003 often profited from ideal climatic conditions and the
wind in the back - it is the assumption retained by the officers of
the company of the Turn of France. The other, pessimistic: they found
parades to circumvent controls antidopage, a reflex as old as the
sport cyclist. The recourse to the blood transfusions could be one of
these parades. The use of manifestly undetectable products during
controls, the such growth hormones, could provide another solution to
the cheaters.

The results of the controls diligentés by the international Union
cyclist (UCI), jealously preserved by-towards it, have all be negative.
The ministry for the sports and the Council of prevention and fight
against doping (CPLD) also carried out urinary controls, of which a part
related to the search for EPO. Only one runner, whose name and team were
not communicated, while waiting for the results of the
counter-evaluation, presented a hématocrite (rate of red globules)
abnormally high. Only one case of doping supposed, the first since 2001,
it is little.

But the organizers of the Turn of France would be wrong to hide behind
their optimism of frontage to believe that this single case testifies to
the cleansing of the medicamentous practices of the group.



--
>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

[Clovis Lark]

never_doped > wrote:
> Translation of the article:

An odd use of the word "translation". But as I surmised, the article is
hardly anti-american. It seems more a warning to the organizers that
since doping is as old as competitive cycling, to assume that all is well
is simply naive and counterproductive.


> The fifth consecutive success of the American Launches Armstrong will
> remain like most difficult to obtain, most dubious, most intelligently
> also built, as well Texan dominated its adversaries top of its
> experiment more as of its pure class. The memorialists will also retain
> that the Turn 2003 was among more haletants and most spectacular of the
> history: dehydrations due to the heat wave, falls of all the principal
> leaders, veins and bad lucks for Armstrong Lance, fair play of its
> principal adversary, Jan Ullrich, and suspense guaranteed until the end,
> the day before the arrival in Paris.

> Undeniable sporting success, the Turn 2003 will have delighted the
> witnesses, always so many on the edges of the roads, the diffusers,
> which beat records of audience, and the partners, which are pleased to
> see the Outer Loop taking an international character, with the image of
> a World cup of football or of a great tennis tournament.

> Spectacular, the race will have also been it by the rate/rhythm to which
> it was carried out during three weeks. The Turn 2003 is fastest of the
> history. Never the time average of the test - calculated according to
> the average carried out by each winner of stage - had not been also
> high: 40,94 km/h. Launch Armstrong and its following rolled more quickly
> in 2003 than in 1999, more quickly than in 1997, the year preceding the
> "Festina scandal" , which had revealed the extent of the recourse to
> doping in the group, and in particular the use of érythropoïétine (EPO),
> a hormone which facilitates the transport of oxygen in blood.

> Vis-a-vis this report, two possibilities. One, optimistic: the runners
> of Turn 2003 often profited from ideal climatic conditions and the
> wind in the back - it is the assumption retained by the officers of
> the company of the Turn of France. The other, pessimistic: they found
> parades to circumvent controls antidopage, a reflex as old as the
> sport cyclist. The recourse to the blood transfusions could be one of
> these parades. The use of manifestly undetectable products during
> controls, the such growth hormones, could provide another solution to
> the cheaters.

> The results of the controls diligentés by the international Union
> cyclist (UCI), jealously preserved by-towards it, have all be negative.
> The ministry for the sports and the Council of prevention and fight
> against doping (CPLD) also carried out urinary controls, of which a part
> related to the search for EPO. Only one runner, whose name and team were
> not communicated, while waiting for the results of the
> counter-evaluation, presented a hématocrite (rate of red globules)
> abnormally high. Only one case of doping supposed, the first since 2001,
> it is little.

> But the organizers of the Turn of France would be wrong to hide behind
> their optimism of frontage to believe that this single case testifies to
> the cleansing of the medicamentous practices of the group.



> --
>>--------------------------<
> Posted via cyclingforums.com
> http://www.cyclingforums.com

[Robert Chung]

"benjo maso" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Daniel Connelly" > wrote
> >
> > Ed-D wrote:
> >
> > >the article notes that the average speed of stage winners this
> > >year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year
> > >preceding the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.
> >
> > 2003 : 3427 km
> > 1997 : 3942 km
>
> Average speed 1997: 39,273
> 2003: 40,956
>
> A difference of almost 1,7 km/h. Only a little bit more than between 1997
> and 1962 (4272 km, average speed 37,304).

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/rechung/temp/tdf.png

[AMG]

> > > >the article notes that the average speed of stage winners this
> > > >year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year
> > > >preceding the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.
> > >
> > > 2003 : 3427 km
> > > 1997 : 3942 km
> >
> > Average speed 1997: 39,273
> > 2003: 40,956
> >
> > A difference of almost 1,7 km/h. Only a little bit more than between
1997
> > and 1962 (4272 km, average speed 37,304).
>
> http://mywebpage.netscape.com/rechung/temp/tdf.png
>

Very informative plot, A couple of points:

1. I think Le Monde (the newspaper, not the rider) was discussing the
average speed of all the stage winners, rather than simply the single GC
winner. This would spread the measurement over many riders, rather than just
focusing on a single one. Unfortunately, the article didn't mention whether
this average was distance-weighted, but this might not make a great deal of
difference.

2a. It would be nice to see two plots: the stage-winner average speed vs.
Tour length and (2) stage-winner average speed vs. year, which might address
the allegations more directly.

2b. In fact (and this would be the best solution) you could "correct" the
average speed for tour length, and then plot this corrected speed vs. year.
Then you would be looking at how the average speed of stage winners has
changed over the years, but taking into account the varying Tour lengths. If
the observed increase in average speed (which, as you point out, is pretty
small to begin with) were entirely due to the decrease in Tour length, this
plot would be flat, i.e., without any trend, and would effectively refute
the Le Monde allegation.

It might be tricky if you found, say, a rather small trend towards
increasing speeds with time. You would have to decide (a) if this trend was
statistically significant/or (b) if it might be due to yet other factors,
such as reduction in bike weight over the years.

Good material for a statistics term paper (and no, I'm not a student!)

-------------------

[Robert Chung]

"AMG" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> >
> > http://mywebpage.netscape.com/rechung/temp/tdf.png
> >
>
> Very informative plot, A couple of points:
>
> 1. I think Le Monde (the newspaper, not the rider) was discussing the
> average speed of all the stage winners, rather than simply the single GC
> winner.

They were, but I don't have that info for all of the Tours. For the Tours
for which I *do* have that info, the "moyenne vitesse de la course" is
consistently about 0.2 kph higher than the "moyenne vitesse du vainqeur."
That's small enough not to make much difference, at least with respect to
the Le Monde editorial.

> 2b. In fact (and this would be the best solution) you could "correct" the
> average speed for tour length, and then plot this corrected speed vs.
year.
> Then you would be looking at how the average speed of stage winners has
> changed over the years, but taking into account the varying Tour lengths.
If
> the observed increase in average speed (which, as you point out, is pretty
> small to begin with) were entirely due to the decrease in Tour length,
this
> plot would be flat, i.e., without any trend, and would effectively refute
> the Le Monde allegation.

Well, what you're talking about is something related to a residual plot. I
was trying to stay away from that stuff because most people wouldn't
understand what that is, but I've put one up at
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/rechung/temp/tdf2.png

This is based on a linear model of speed based only on a single predictor,
i.e., distance. I'm not really keen on linear models but they're often handy
for doing cursory stuff like this. BTW, I've added a little line to the
original plot that shows the linear regression line.

I posted the plot without any interpretation because I'm sort of interested
in what people see in it. Think of it as sort of a Rorschach inkblot test.
However, since you've been kind enough to look at it, I'll tell you what I
see: one single variable (distance) seems to be a moderately good predictor
of average speed. Without knowing anything else about the race (the weather,
the amount of climbing, the tactical or strategic situation) except total
distance, the fit is moderately good. The 2003 race was the fastest on
record, but it was also one of the shortest. The 2003 race has a positive
residual (i.e., it was faster than would be predicted by distance alone) but
not remakably so. The most aberrant races were the 1947 and 1989 races,
which were much slower than one would have expected from a model of speed
based on distance alone. In addition, the recent races are almost a third
shorter than the races of 50 years ago which, in this simplified view of the
world, happens to explain a fair amount about the increasing speeds.

In case you think I've done something wrong, I've posted the data underlying
these graphs at
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/rechung/temp/tdf.csv
in comma-separated-value text format.

[Robert Chung]

"Robert Chung" > wrote in message
...
> The most aberrant races were the 1947 and 1989 races,

Sorry. Of the 57 races since WWII, the most aberrant races (in terms of the
size of their residuals) were the 1947 and 1973 races.

[chris]

Yeah, Rush Limbaugh...he's a reliable source. I love republicans;
always crying liberalism in the media. Too bad they control most
major media sources, which is why you hear so little about anything
illegal regarding republicans, and everything sexual about Clinton.

Now let's take this discussion off RBR.
Jay Hill > wrote in message >...
> Ed-D wrote:
> > Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge
> that the
> > Times is left-of-center.
>
> Common knowledge among whom? Dittoheads? So you think every one of
> the thousands of employees at the Times takes a little liberal truth
> test and swears fealty to Jesse Jackson & Hillary Clinton?

Would not the total elevation gain over the entire Tour, or at least
over the major mountain stages, play a big role in average speed? Or
is it the case that that has remained fairly constant from year-to-year,
or at least its ratio to total tour distance?

Best, Peter

[AMG]

>> This is based on a linear model of speed based only on a single
predictor,
>> i.e., distance. I'm not really keen on linear models but they're often
handy
>> for doing cursory stuff like this. BTW, I've added a little line to the
>> original plot that shows the linear regression line.
>>

> Would not the total elevation gain over the entire Tour, or at least
> over the major mountain stages, play a big role in average speed? Or
> is it the case that that has remained fairly constant from year-to-year,
> or at least its ratio to total tour distance?

I agree completely. The Le Monde editorial implicitly assumes that all Tours
are equal, in the sense that if a particular year's Tour is 20% longer than
the average, it will have 20% more mountain than the average, "mountain"
including all the elements that cause riders to slow down. So a detailed
knowledge of every year's course -- as well as a lot of time -- would be
necessary for a thorough analysis.

Re the actual data (average speed of the GC winners, 1947-2003), a little
calculation indicates that for each additional 100 kilometers of Tour
length, the speed decreases by 0.41 km/h. This is an average figure over the
above period. There are plenty of deviations from the average, and
variations in the mountain fraction could be one reason for these
deviations.

Overall, average speed was in the low 30s from 1947 until about 1955, when
it increased to the mid 30s. It started climbing unevenly around 1975 and
then more steadily after about 1985. Nearly constant from 1995-1997 at
around 39 km/h, it climbed, with a couple of small wiggles, to its all-time
high in 2003, BUT:

If the speed is corrected to take account of the effect of Tour length, a
different picture emerges. The period 1955-1965 now appears as a broad
plateau, after which the speed declines during 1965-1975 and increases, with
some large fluctuations, from 1980 to about 1991. After this it is more or
less stable all the way through 2003, which is no longer the fastest Tour on
record. The two fastest tours would now be 1992 and 1998, and the LA years,
1999-2003, show a steady decline except for 2003, which is now the second
fastest LA tour, after 1999.

A real Tour historian (or a pharmacist) might be able to explain some of the
wiggles on the plots, and this would be useful. But it is interesting that
the rocket-like trend in GC winner's speed shown by the "raw" data is not
really present when the speed is adjusted to take account of tour length.
And Robert's plot makes the length-speed relationship pretty clear.

I would be happy to post the plots of speed and length-adjusted speed but I
don't have a web page to do it to at the moment, so if someone else wants to
do it I'll be pleased to send a file (it was done in Excel). Food for
thought...

AMG
---------