spokes

[greggery peccary]

just wondering about "double butted" spokes versus regular size on a road
(communter) wheel that gets a lot of pounding on cracked streets, curbs and
root bumps. i dropped it off at the lbs after the fourth spoke broke after
about 6K miles (they only break when im running late). yes the wheel was
very true and tensions fairly even. thanks for your thoughts
-alan

[Arthur Harris]

"alan" wrote:
> just wondering about "double butted" spokes versus regular size on a road
> (communter) wheel that gets a lot of pounding on cracked streets, curbs
> and
> root bumps. i dropped it off at the lbs after the fourth spoke broke after
> about 6K miles (they only break when im running late). yes the wheel was
> very true and tensions fairly even. thanks for your thoughts

A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to
stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything else
being the same).

I suspect your spoke breakage is due to either a poor wheel build (e.g.,
lack of stress relieving) or poor quality spokes.

Art Harris

[Paul Turner]

Arthur Harris wrote:

> "alan" wrote:
>> just wondering about "double butted" spokes versus regular size on a
>> road (communter) wheel that gets a lot of pounding on cracked streets,
>> curbs and root bumps. i dropped it off at the lbs after the fourth
>> spoke
>> broke after about 6K miles (they only break when im running late). yes
>> the wheel was very true and tensions fairly even. thanks for your
>> thoughts
>
> A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to
> stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything
> else being the same).
>
> I suspect your spoke breakage is due to either a poor wheel build (e.g.,
> lack of stress relieving) or poor quality spokes.

Although what I've read (mostly in this group) makes me agree with Art,
you can have a perfectly fine wheel with unbutted spokes too. I used to
break spokes frequently. I had a good pair of wheels built a few years ago
and never had the slightest problem after that. I had to catch a loose
bungee cord in the spokes to jerk the rim out of true, and even then it
wasn't enough to make the brake pads rub. The spokes on these wheels are
straight gauge.

I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if
it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the
distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a
heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate
this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at
the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted
spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent
results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.

--
Paul Turner

[maxo]

On Sun, 08 May 2005 08:50:34 -0400, Arthur Harris wrote:

> A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to
> stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything
> else being the same).

some folks say they ride better too, but that coul be a bogus claim...

no real reason not to use them is the real point--they just cost a few
bucks more.

[greggery peccary]

"Paul Turner" > wrote in message
...
> Arthur Harris wrote:
>
>
> I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if
> it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the
> distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a
> heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate
> this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at
> the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted
> spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent
> results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.
>
> --
> Paul Turner
>

ya they always break at the elbow...kudos to supergo for doing the job in a
pinch!

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> ya they always break at the elbow...kudos to supergo for doing the job in
> a
> pinch!

Something to keep in mind- by the time you get a 3rd broken spoke, it's time
to rebuild the wheel. Whatever has caused your spoke failures is still
there, and you're way beyond being able to rationalize that they broke from
random failure. They will most likely keep breaking, which is not a whole
lot of fun out on a ride, whether it's a 36 or 24-spoke wheel.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"greggery peccary" <@.@> wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul Turner" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Arthur Harris wrote:
>>
>>
>> I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if
>> it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the
>> distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a
>> heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate
>> this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at
>> the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted
>> spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent
>> results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.
>>
>> --
>> Paul Turner
>>
>
> ya they always break at the elbow...kudos to supergo for doing the job in
> a
> pinch!
>
>

[[email protected]]

Paul Turner writes:

> I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low,
> even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low
> tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly
> (especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The
> spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted
> spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue
> eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this,
> I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight
> gauge spokes on well made wheels.

I disagree. The kind of spoke failure is caused described is caused
by high stress and this is only possible from high tension, load on
the wheel only slackening spokes. I would like to hear how loose
spokes lead to fatigue failures.

[[email protected]]

Paul Turner writes:

> I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low,
> even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low
> tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly
> (especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The
> spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted
> spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue
> eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this,
> I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight
> gauge spokes on well made wheels.

I disagree. The kind of spoke failure described is caused by high
stress which is only possible from high tension, load on the wheel
only slackening spokes. I would like to hear how loose spokes lead to
fatigue failures.

[greggery peccary]

> wrote in message
...
> Paul Turner writes:
>
> > I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low,
> > even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low
> > tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly
> > (especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The
> > spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted
> > spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue
> > eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this,
> > I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight
> > gauge spokes on well made wheels.
>
> I disagree. The kind of spoke failure is caused described is caused
> by high stress and this is only possible from high tension, load on
> the wheel only slackening spokes. I would like to hear how loose
> spokes lead to fatigue failures.
>
>

is there an echo in here?

[greggery peccary]

> wrote in message
...
> Paul Turner writes:
>
> > I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low,
> > even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low
> > tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly
> > (especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The
> > spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted
> > spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue
> > eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this,
> > I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight
> > gauge spokes on well made wheels.
>
> I disagree. The kind of spoke failure described is caused by high
> stress which is only possible from high tension, load on the wheel
> only slackening spokes. I would like to hear how loose spokes lead to
> fatigue failures.
>
>

is there an echo in here?

[Leo Lichtman]

"greggery peccary"wrote: is there an echo in here?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think it's more like a barber shop with mirrors on facing walls.

[greggery peccary]

"maxo" > wrote in message
. ..
> On Sun, 08 May 2005 08:50:34 -0400, Arthur Harris wrote:
>
> > A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to
> > stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything
> > else being the same).
>
> some folks say they ride better too, but that coul be a bogus claim...
>
> no real reason not to use them is the real point--they just cost a few
> bucks more.
>
>
>

got my wheel back. they built it with some good swiss spokes cos they had no
double butts. anxious to see how they do on the potholes and curbs.
whatever, im glad to be back on the road (and my old car got it's once a
month spin).

[David L. Johnson]

On Sun, 08 May 2005 18:16:57 -0700, wrote:

> got my wheel back. they built it with some good swiss spokes cos they had no
> double butts. anxious to see how they do on the potholes and curbs.
> whatever, im glad to be back on the road (and my old car got it's once a
> month spin).

Some shops only use straight-gauge spokes, possibly if they happen to have
a thread rolling machine, so they don't have to stock several lengths, but
can cut to size.

It is not a good idea to build with straight-gauge spokes. They will be
no stronger, and will not last as long as double-butted.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can
_`\(,_ | only be cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and
(_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis and Ferraris. --
Glenn Davies

[Art Harris]

David L. Johnson wrote:

> It is not a good idea to build with straight-gauge spokes.
> They will be no stronger, and will not last as long as double-butted.


I agree unbutted spokes will be no stronger, but what makes you think
they will fail sooner than butted spokes?

Art Harris

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 09 May 2005 05:16:56 -0700, Art Harris wrote:

> David L. Johnson wrote:
>
>> It is not a good idea to build with straight-gauge spokes.
>> They will be no stronger, and will not last as long as double-butted.
>
>
> I agree unbutted spokes will be no stronger, but what makes you think
> they will fail sooner than butted spokes?

Experience. Plus, the thin section of a butted spoke allows slightly more
stretch, which decreases the chance of the spoke going slack, which lowers
the chance for fatigue failures. One could argue that a straight-gauge
thinner spoke (say a 15 gauge compared with a 14/15) would have as much if
not slightly more stretch than the butted spoke, but the penalty there is
the weaker ends.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | What is objectionable, and what is dangerous about extremists is
_`\(,_ | not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant.
(_)/ (_) | --Robert F. Kennedy

[Art Harris]

David L. Johnson wrote:

> Art Harris wrote:

>> I agree unbutted spokes will be no stronger, but what makes you >>
think they will fail sooner than butted spokes?

> Experience. Plus, the thin section of a butted spoke allows
> slightly more stretch, which decreases the chance of the spoke going
> slack, which lowers the chance for fatigue failures.

My experience is different. I've built and ridden wheels using variuos
combinations of DT spokes from all straight gauge, to all butted, to a
mix (R/L). I have NEVER broken a straight gauge spoke, while I have
broken a couple of butted spokes (one was the infamous long elbow DT
version).

Furthermore, the broken spokes were all on the right side (which are
far less prone to going slack than those on the left). If your theory
is correct (i.e., fatigue failures increase when spokes go slack), most
broken spokes would occur on the left side. In reality, most failures
occur on the right side.

I'm not saying straight gauge spokes are stronger, or build a better
wheel. I am saying they're no more prone to breakage than a butted
spoke.

Art Harris

[Booker C. Bense]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article >,
Arthur Harris > wrote:
>"alan" wrote:
>> just wondering about "double butted" spokes versus regular size on a road
>> (communter) wheel that gets a lot of pounding on cracked streets, curbs
>> and
>> root bumps. i dropped it off at the lbs after the fourth spoke broke after
>> about 6K miles (they only break when im running late). yes the wheel was
>> very true and tensions fairly even. thanks for your thoughts
>
>A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to
>stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything else
>being the same).
>
>I suspect your spoke breakage is due to either a poor wheel build (e.g.,
>lack of stress relieving) or poor quality spokes.
>

_ If you keep breaking spokes, you should check that the rim is
still round. While you can use spoke tension to compensate for
a slightly bent rim, it leads to uneven stress in the spokes
which causes breakage. That'a a lot of spokes to break in that
many miles.

_ Booker C. Bense

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[Jim Smith]

"Art Harris" > writes:

> David L. Johnson wrote:
>
>> Art Harris wrote:
>
>>> I agree unbutted spokes will be no stronger, but what makes you >>
> think they will fail sooner than butted spokes?
>
>> Experience. Plus, the thin section of a butted spoke allows
>> slightly more stretch, which decreases the chance of the spoke going
>> slack, which lowers the chance for fatigue failures.
>
> My experience is different. I've built and ridden wheels using variuos
> combinations of DT spokes from all straight gauge, to all butted, to a
> mix (R/L). I have NEVER broken a straight gauge spoke, while I have
> broken a couple of butted spokes (one was the infamous long elbow DT
> version).
>
> Furthermore, the broken spokes were all on the right side (which are
> far less prone to going slack than those on the left). If your theory
> is correct (i.e., fatigue failures increase when spokes go slack), most
> broken spokes would occur on the left side. In reality, most failures
> occur on the right side.
>
> I'm not saying straight gauge spokes are stronger, or build a better
> wheel. I am saying they're no more prone to breakage than a butted
> spoke.

I recently heard the same thing from a wheelbuilder at a well known
shop out here. He told me his experience has been that straight or
butted makes no differance. He is aware of the theory behind the
claim for db being stronger, but claims that in practice they are the
same.

Maybe spokes are just generally so good these days that it doesn't
matter.

[greggery peccary]

"Booker C. Bense"
tanford.edu> wrote in
message ...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In article >,
> Arthur Harris > wrote:
> >"alan" wrote:
> >> just wondering about "double butted" spokes versus regular size on a
road
> >> (communter) wheel that gets a lot of pounding on cracked streets, curbs
> >> and
> >> root bumps. i dropped it off at the lbs after the fourth spoke broke
after
> >> about 6K miles (they only break when im running late). yes the wheel
was
> >> very true and tensions fairly even. thanks for your thoughts
> >
> >A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to
> >stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything
else
> >being the same).
> >
> >I suspect your spoke breakage is due to either a poor wheel build (e.g.,
> >lack of stress relieving) or poor quality spokes.
> >
>
> _ If you keep breaking spokes, you should check that the rim is
> still round. While you can use spoke tension to compensate for
> a slightly bent rim, it leads to uneven stress in the spokes
> which causes breakage. That'a a lot of spokes to break in that
> many miles.
>
> _ Booker C. Bense
>

wheel checked out by myself and two bike shops. although there is a very
slght hop the concensus is that i had a wheel with a bad batch of spokes.
(mavic wheel on 2003 novara)