Look Cleats Breaking ?

[Richard Thompson]

Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did
last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in
ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.
Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the
door. Has anyone had a
similar fall ? Richard

@ @

~~~

[Tom Kunich]

"Richard Thompson" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did
> last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in
> ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.
> Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the
> door. Has anyone had a
> similar fall ? Richard

No. Though I've seen a lot of Look cleats fail from wear and the owner not
replacing them when necessary.

I have to tell you, if you can go up hill standing at 30 mph you're in shape
for the pros.

[B. Lafferty]

"Richard Thompson" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did
> last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in
> ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.
> Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the
> door. Has anyone had a
> similar fall ? Richard
>
> @ @

I assume that you broke the cleat climbing and then had your foot disengage
on the descent. The only Look cleats that I've seen crack or break are
those that are worn and past due for replacement. Was it a genuine Look
cleat or an Exus knock off made with softer plastic?

[Callistus Valerius]

> Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did
> last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in
> ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.
> Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the
> door. Has anyone had a
> similar fall ? Richard

Not similar, but I did break a look cleat in half one time. Put some
new ones on, and didn't tighten the screws tight enough, so when I got to an
intersection, I couldn't get the cleat out the pedal, because the cleat
wasn't solid to the shoe. They loosened up on me. One of those
embarrassing moments as you flail away and go down with all these people
stopped at the intersection watching this idiot. But as I went down, I gave
my foot one big twist, and broke the cleat in half. So it can be done even
with new ones. The lesson I learned is after you put some new ones on.
Tighten them again, or make sure they're tight, after your first ride with
them.

After I got knocked out on a ride, I rode to the hospital, after I came
to, one handed, with a crushed helmet and a broken hand. I can't afford an
ambulance. It was only 8 miles, now if it would have been 30, I don't know
if I could have made it, I wasn't really thinking to well at that point.
But I was on familiar territory so that was lucky.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sun, 8 May 2005 18:33:13 -0400, (Richard
Thompson) wrote:
> Has anyone had a
>similar fall ?

Probably. There are tens of thousands of those cleats in use over the
years, so for sure some would get worn and break. Everything breaks
eventually.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

[amit]

B. Lafferty wrote:

>
> I assume that you broke the cleat climbing and then had your foot
disengage
> on the descent. The only Look cleats that I've seen crack or break
are
> those that are worn and past due for replacement. Was it a genuine
Look
> cleat or an Exus knock off made with softer plastic?

jackie childs,

his disfigured face is your next case.

[Peter Allen]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Richard Thompson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I
>> did last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in
>> ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with
>> me. Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show
>> me the door. Has anyone
>> had a similar fall ? Richard
>
> No. Though I've seen a lot of Look cleats fail from wear and the
> owner not replacing them when necessary.
>
> I have to tell you, if you can go up hill standing at 30 mph you're
> in shape for the pros.

Odds on by 'hill' he means fifty yards at maybe 5%. Which any joker can
sprint up at 30 mph.

Peter

[Steven Bornfeld]

Richard Thompson wrote:
> Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did
> last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in
> ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.
> Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the
> door. Has anyone had a
> similar fall ? Richard
>
> @ @
>
> ~~~
>

You sure you were unconscious 45 minutes and they discharged you?
Geez, managed care has gotten worse than I thought.

Steve

--
Cut the nonsense to reply

[Curtis L. Russell]

On Mon, 09 May 2005 13:10:53 GMT, Steven Bornfeld
> wrote:

>You sure you were unconscious 45 minutes and they discharged you?
>Geez, managed care has gotten worse than I thought.
>
>Steve

They gave him a card with a number to call if he passed out again.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article >,
says...
>
>
> Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did
>last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in
>ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.
>Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the
>door. Has anyone had a
>similar fall ?


30MPH uphill??? Wow! That's impressive. Was this a new cleat or old cleat?
Where did the cleat break? Any pictures of the borken cleat? If the front
tip broke off, chances are you didn't replace the cleat when you should have.
The front tip of the cleat wears on the foot you put down at stop lights.
If you walk in your cleats, they wear even faster. You need to keep an eye
on your cleats and change them when they start to get thin.
--------------
Alex

[Richard Thompson]

Well Thanks for the responces. As I expected ]some were cute, some
simply jealous. I said uphill , but had just stood up starting te hill,
the cleat broke in the middle, Scews still attached. Was using spare
shoes as cleats on pearl U`s were worn . And yes I can go up some hills
and hold 30 for a while, as I get older the while is shorter. Not copies
but look cleats . Thats why I was using spare shoes,, shops in Augusta
Ga stock Knock off cleats . I won`t buy them. It was a
freindy easy 100 mile unsupported ride with 3 of us, I had just passed
another rider who was still gong close to 30 mph . I`m taking his word
,after I hit the good looking head on asphalt memory took a break. Once
the hospital discovered I had no insurance ,they finnished a scan on my
head and neck X rays. Then showed me the door.

[Richard Thompson]

I suppose I could go back to using my trusty Cinneli pedals . They
were called suicide pedals for a reason. I won them in a 3 day stage
race back in the `70s. As I am 60 in august I may have ridden more miles
than any two of you posting here. I never said I would be doing 30 at
the top of the hill. THERE are HILLS in Georgia,, ask Lance. Yes I have
ridden up Brasstown Bald on a single bike and a tandem. ( Short
Wheelbase ,BOB JACKSON ) . I have taken pickup truck loads of sewup
tires to the dump I`ve worn out. I would still like
a few serious commennts about breaking Look cleats. I was racing way
before the class system started. Then 18- 40 was one class. OOPS 300-600
somtimes started a race. Tough luck if you bought a bike today and
lined up to race the national team tommorow. Children I
only wanted comments about broken cleats ,,thanks

@ @

~~~

[Richard Thompson]

Alex I usually do track stands at traffic lights.. Good point though.
Thanks : Richard

@ @

~~~

[Mike Murray]

I feel compelled to note, as an Emergency Physician, that if I saw someone
that had a longish loss of consciousness but had a normal neurologic exam, a
normal CT and a competent person to observe them at home in a reasonably
close location to a hospital I would generally send them home. It is
unusual for me to even know the insurance status of the patient, although I
could look. In my experience it is very unusual for EM physicians to make
any type of decision based on the patients insurance or payment status or
for that matter to even look at it. After all, it is not the physician's
money that is being spent; it is the patient's. In addition, doing more in
terms of studies or admission generally is not much more work and a whole
lot less liability risk which tends to push you that way rather than
worrying whether the patient is going to be just another one of the many
that will not pay their bill. Admission decisions are, of course, made by
the physicians and not by the admitting personnel, accounting,
administration, or anyone else that I would include under the term "the
hospital". The only time that payment status really ever comes into play,
for me at least, is when the patient wants to refuse an offered test or
method of treatment because they are concerned about the cost.

--
Mike Murray
"Richard Thompson" > wrote in message
...
> Well Thanks for the responces. As I expected ]some were cute, some
> simply jealous. I said uphill , but had just stood up starting te hill,
> the cleat broke in the middle, Scews still attached. Was using spare
> shoes as cleats on pearl U`s were worn . And yes I can go up some hills
> and hold 30 for a while, as I get older the while is shorter. Not copies
> but look cleats . Thats why I was using spare shoes,, shops in Augusta
> Ga stock Knock off cleats . I won`t buy them. It was a
> freindy easy 100 mile unsupported ride with 3 of us, I had just passed
> another rider who was still gong close to 30 mph . I`m taking his word
> ,after I hit the good looking head on asphalt memory took a break. Once
> the hospital discovered I had no insurance ,they finnished a scan on my
> head and neck X rays. Then showed me the door.
>

[Curtis L. Russell]

On Mon, 9 May 2005 21:23:34 -0400, (Richard
Thompson) wrote:

> I would still like
>a few serious commennts about breaking Look cleats. I was racing way
>before the class system started. Then 18- 40 was one class. OOPS 300-600
>somtimes started a race. Tough luck if you bought a bike today and
>lined up to race the national team tommorow.

You must have been racing young. I was racing in the ABLA in the early
70s and we were using A-B-C-D classes and there were juniors. There
weren't many master riders back then (at least in Texas and the
Monterey area of California) because the older guys seemed to be only
doing training rides and running the clubs and races.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

[Tom Kunich]

If you come on like a lawyer looking for testimony about breaking
cleats you can expect to get the sort of answer you got.

The older Look cleats have had their molds replaced many times over the
years I would expect and have gotten progressively smaller and hence
they rattle around in the pedal more than originally.

The latest Look replacement cleats with the white Teflon underside fits
and works a great deal better than those old style cleats that are
still available here and there.

I've worn out perhaps 40 sets of Look cleats my self and put them on
perhaps 50 bikes for various people.

Not one of them ever had a cleat failure as you describe but as John
Tomlinson observed with his usual good sense - with a million riders
out there on Look pedals any kind of failure possible is bound to
happen.

Another thought - some shoes have ledges and arcs where the cleats
attach. Overtightening the cleats on these sorts of things could damage
them though I have to admit that I've used pennies to space out cleats
on small shoe sizes, with arcs so tight that the cleats couldn't engage
the pedals, without any problems at all along these lines.

[Tom Kunich]

Mike, when I smashed my toe in a lawnmower accident and went to the EM
one of the first questions was "Do you have insurance". I was between
jobs and didn't and even in my pain I would hear the nurse calling
plastic surgeons on the phone and in the first sentence they would say,
"no insurance". No plastic surgeons were available and so an osteopath
cut it off.

Now I was in so much pain that I wasn't about to complain, but the fact
is that I'm pretty sure that the toe could have been saved and some
walking problems avoided if the question of insurance had never come
up.

The funny thing is that when I went to my next job after recovery they
had a health insurance guy there who described almost the identical
injury to another person - he bragged that his company could reduce
that $16,000 bill so that they only paid $1,900. The interesting part
was that my injuries cost me $18,000 in medical expenses which I paid
within 6 months.

I'm sure that there are doctors such as yourself who aren't worried
about being paid all that rapidly, but there most certainly are a large
number of doctors who are.

[Mike Murray]

There are some problems with this story:
-I am not sure when you had your accident but since the COBRA legislation it
is actually a violation of federal law to discuss finances prior to
initiating what is vaguely termed a "medical screening exam". Of course it
should be expected that hospitals will be collecting payment information but
there is a BIG disconnect between payment information and medical decision
making in general, unfortunately both to the benefit and the detriment of
the patient.
-It is also an EMTALA violation, which carries significant financial
penalties for both the hospital and the physicians, for an on call physician
to refuse to respond when called by the ED. There is no requirement,
however, that there be plastic surgeons or, for that matter, any other
specialty coverage at all hospitals.
-There is also a requirement for physician to physician contact. It is
unlikely that nurses would be placed in a position of searching for a
plastic surgeon to respond to a need for consultation as this clearly would
be the responsibility of the physician. Clerical people or even nurses may
be making phone calls however and that may cause some confusion. It is
frequent that people will assume that all the females in the hospital are
nurses and all the males are doctors. This does somewhat **** of virtually
everyone who is mislabeled, by the way.
-An osteopath, or DO, is a doctor just like an MD. They go to osteopathic
school and have equivalent training.

I think that often people assume that all the people they meet in a hospital
encounter are acting as agents of the physician. This is most definitely
not the case. In fact many times the physician is acting at odds to the
hospital and even more often the specific hospital employees. There are
lots of different schemes that are used but most generally EM physicians do
not collect directly from the patients they see. They may be employees of a
group, contract management company or the hospital. They may be paid
hourly, split fees with a group or some other scheme. Even in the
situations where they are paid directly related to what is, somewhat
euphemistically, called production there is so much separation between the
service delivered and the amount paid that it is difficult to really make
much of a connection. In many EDs a significantly large portion of the
patient population is uninsured so seeing another uninsured patient is very
unlikely to change how you would generally do things.

The situation is different in a private office of course. There is a more
direct connection between the finances and the services delivered in that
setting so consequently it would be easier to see economics making an effect
on decision making.

I am not surprised by the statement about the reduction in amount of the
bill, although the magnitude is a bit bigger than I would expect. It is
common that insurance companies will negotiate (or more accurately demand)
deep discounts. This, combined with the fact that governmental payers
(Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) pay set fees for services regardless of amount
billed and that there are a substantial number of patients that don't ever
pay, make it so that the fee for services (the "sticker" price) is
substantially higher than the actual market value. The hapless person that
pays cash for service ends up paying this "sticker" price, in effect
covering the underpayment by no pays, insured and governmental payers. I
have calculated that for our group if we were paid cash at the time of
service, like most businesses, we could charge roughly 20% (not 20% less ...
20%) of what we currently charge and still make the same amount of money.
It is a crazy business.

I also feel compelled to point out that being between jobs does not
necessarily keep you from purchasing insurance. You do not have to get your
insurance through an employer. Major medical insurance, which has a high
deductible but would cover a substantial portion of a large bill like Tom's,
can be purchased individually often for less money than many people spend on
beer and cigarettes. Pre-existing conditions may make individual medical
insurance difficult or impossible to purchase but there are often groups
purchase insurances that people can get outside of their employment. USA
Cycling has, at least in the past, offered this sort of program. For the
most part here in the US the crisis of people lacking medical insurance is
primarily an issue of people electing NOT to purchase rather than being
unable to purchase.

--
Mike Murray

"Tom Kunich" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Mike, when I smashed my toe in a lawnmower accident and went to the EM
> one of the first questions was "Do you have insurance". I was between
> jobs and didn't and even in my pain I would hear the nurse calling
> plastic surgeons on the phone and in the first sentence they would say,
> "no insurance". No plastic surgeons were available and so an osteopath
> cut it off.
>
> Now I was in so much pain that I wasn't about to complain, but the fact
> is that I'm pretty sure that the toe could have been saved and some
> walking problems avoided if the question of insurance had never come
> up.
>
> The funny thing is that when I went to my next job after recovery they
> had a health insurance guy there who described almost the identical
> injury to another person - he bragged that his company could reduce
> that $16,000 bill so that they only paid $1,900. The interesting part
> was that my injuries cost me $18,000 in medical expenses which I paid
> within 6 months.
>
> I'm sure that there are doctors such as yourself who aren't worried
> about being paid all that rapidly, but there most certainly are a large
> number of doctors who are.
>

[Richard Thompson]

Thanks Tom Kunich for a good answer. The look cleats that broke are
on Time shoes with no ridge. I have never seen cleats break this way ,
but it does cause a bad fall. I`m back to about 50 miles a day but
basicaly riding with one arm on hills because of shoulder pain. I guess
Tyler is a tougher man than me. At least faster.Guess my blood may test
funny also,with the crap one to me 18 years ago . One crazy doctor
wanted to do a heart transplant. I tossed him out of the room , then
went home and rode 150 miles to think the next day.

@ @

~~~

[Richard Thompson]

It might be interesting to get Mike Murry and my soninlaw in a
disscussion . Steve Rider my son in law is a nurologist, also a good
biker, who is fanatic about cyclecross. I
was a bit shocked after ct scan and Xrays at how quick the were through
with me. Damn I was barefooted wearing bloody bike clothes, 25 miles
from home. The loan of a phone did find a ride , but what if I had not .
A taxi ? and I live alone in the woods. OK there is a house in woods.
Son in law called the next morning to see if I woke. Guess Helmet did
its job. I always have said ,,CARRY ID. its suprising
how many bikers don`t . This time I was not riding alone. I often do 200
mile rides with a tent, then ride back the next morning. We all might
should tell some one where we are going to ride.

@ @

~~~

[amit]

Richard Thompson wrote:
> I suppose I could go back to using my trusty Cinneli pedals . They
> were called suicide pedals for a reason. I won them in a 3 day stage
> race back in the `70s.


according to the report this kid died when his pedal pulled out (albeit
it was a freak accident).

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/may05/may11news2

(2nd story : wisconsin rider dies)

Look pedals will put out if you pull up or back hard enough (you're
only likely to do this on a steep hill or for a sudden acceleration),
some other brands won't, simply because of the way the mechanism is
designed.

-Amit

[Howard Kveck]

In article . com>,
"Tom Kunich" > wrote:

> The older Look cleats have had their molds replaced many times over the
> years I would expect and have gotten progressively smaller and hence
> they rattle around in the pedal more than originally.

Hmm, I'm not sure how replacing the molds would make the cleats smaller,
unless they purposely designed the new molds to be smaller. They'd have the
dimensions of the originals on file (Iwould hope!), and it would be a
simple matter to duplicate those dimensions. Even the French know how to
use calipers, micrometers and CMMs. I wonder if the newer cleats are made
differently, have a different material composition that shrinks more than
the original stuff as it sets up, or if the pedals are no longer then same
size (due to wear, or being deformed).

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Mike Murray]

Sounds like you might have had the normal neuro exam and the normal CT but
you did not have the dependable observer to take you home. In that case, I
would think that they had not done things correctly. To jump to the idea
that the cause was insurance status is a bit of a leap. Doctors, like other
people, screw up on a fairly regular basis and sometimes it is difficult to
see why. My sister, who has had a prior blood clot in her leg, presented to
a ED with pain in that leg as well as chest pain and shortness of breath.
These are classic signs of blood clot in the lungs, a potentially life
threatening problem. She was, however, sent home after a very minimal
evaluation and scheduled for a test to look for a clot in her leg the
following day. Clearly this was wrong. It had nothing to do with insurance
or economic status as the physicians and hospital stood to make a fair
amount of money by doing the indicated testing that her insurance would have
paid for easily. In my experience economics are a fairly poor motivator of
individual decision making for physicians.

--
Mike Murray
"Richard Thompson" > wrote in message
...
> It might be interesting to get Mike Murry and my soninlaw in a
> disscussion . Steve Rider my son in law is a nurologist, also a good
> biker, who is fanatic about cyclecross. I
> was a bit shocked after ct scan and Xrays at how quick the were through
> with me. Damn I was barefooted wearing bloody bike clothes, 25 miles
> from home. The loan of a phone did find a ride , but what if I had not .
> A taxi ? and I live alone in the woods. OK there is a house in woods.
> Son in law called the next morning to see if I woke. Guess Helmet did
> its job. I always have said ,,CARRY ID. its suprising
> how many bikers don`t . This time I was not riding alone. I often do 200
> mile rides with a tent, then ride back the next morning. We all might
> should tell some one where we are going to ride.
>
> @ @
>
> ~~~
>

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 08 May 2005 23:36:48 GMT, "Tom Kunich" >
wrote:

>"Richard Thompson" > wrote in message
...
>> Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did
>> last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in
>> ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.
>> Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the
>> door. Has anyone had a
>> similar fall ? Richard
>
>No. Though I've seen a lot of Look cleats fail from wear and the owner not
>replacing them when necessary.
>
>I have to tell you, if you can go up hill standing at 30 mph you're in shape
>for the pros.
>

I just had mine replaced for that reason, wear and tear, just in time
for the new season. THe last pair I had did crack, but it was in an
accident. I didn't notice until I got home. However, since i was
injured and it was late in the season, that was kind of it for me.

REcently, a guy I know had his STEM crack- while he was DESCENDING a
hilly street. It didn't break, fortunately. ! He made it to his LBS
and it turns out the bolt had been too tight. Needless to say he was
just a tad rattled. He could have ended up looking like marinara
sauce!

[Richard Thompson]

Thanks Amit ,, I read the artical. Did not mention brand cleats
used, but seems similar to my fall as I was sorta attacking on a short
steep hill . Was told when cleat broke the loose foot hit pavement which
shows by scrapes on shoe. Then it seems I hit head and about everyother
part of me,,lol . But my cleat did not pull out, it broke in half. The
front and rear of cleat did not break off. Oh well many bought new
cleats since I fell or at least checked theirs.
Richard

[Richard Thompson]

At my request one local shop had new Look Cleats deliverd. They now
make a thinner cleat. Thinner cleats have nothing to do with older molds
being replaced. I agree the French can make accurate measuments. Simply
look at Look web site. The Look Knockoff cleats do not have wear
indicators or teflon as the newer Look Cleats do. I would not use the
Knockoffs. Gee only a $5 saving.

@ @

~~~

[Richard Thompson]

Mike I agree I might should have not been alone that first nite. Guess I
should either get married again or just rent out a few rooms. I did take
a good wack on my head, Hmmmm could be the toughest part of my body. At
least my daughter and son in law called the next morning.
Blood clots are noting to ignore.
Richard

[Richard Thompson]

Blanshay I have seen falls caused by handlebars snapping in final
sprints. nasty falls. Taylor Hogan had this happen in Tallahassy Fla
Lucky for him he hit the curb ,,then soft grass.

@ @

~~~

[Tom Kunich]

It sounds as though you got a shoulder separation. The pain is likely
to stick around for some time if that's the case. Mine took about a
year to go away on the worst side. Six months or so for the other side.

[Tom Kunich]

Howard,

Because plastic shrinks the real cleat model which is used to produce
the mold is made a little larger. Over the years they lose the original
cleat model. Then, when renewing the mold they use a regular cleat as a
model. If you use a cleat instead of the model the end result is that
the new mold produces a cleat a little bit smaller. Then when the make
a new mold from the new smaller cleat it comes out a little smaller
again.

There isn't much difference, only a percent or so, but over time it
adds up and makes a smaller cleat. All you have to do is try using the
old style cleat in a good look pedal and you can tell immediately that
something is wrong. The latest cleats have obviously been made properly
sized and the difference is instantly noticeable.

[Carl Sundquist]

"Tom Kunich" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Howard,
>
> Because plastic shrinks the real cleat model which is used to produce
> the mold is made a little larger. Over the years they lose the original
> cleat model. Then, when renewing the mold they use a regular cleat as a
> model. If you use a cleat instead of the model the end result is that
> the new mold produces a cleat a little bit smaller. Then when the make
> a new mold from the new smaller cleat it comes out a little smaller
> again.
>

Why would they do that instead of using the original specs they used for the
initial molds?

[Howard Kveck]

In article . com>,
"Tom Kunich" > wrote:

> Howard,
>
> Because plastic shrinks the real cleat model which is used to produce
> the mold is made a little larger. Over the years they lose the original
> cleat model. Then, when renewing the mold they use a regular cleat as a
> model. If you use a cleat instead of the model the end result is that
> the new mold produces a cleat a little bit smaller. Then when the make
> a new mold from the new smaller cleat it comes out a little smaller
> again.

Well, for any kind of plastic item that is to be made in quantities
greater than a few (say, one or two pieces), no molds are made from an
existing item, like a cleat. The molds for a mass produced part are
machined from at least two pieces of aluminum or other metal (a top and
bottom for a very simple part), to many pieces for a complicated piece that
has overhangs, pockets or other features. The mold may be made completely
by milling machines, or roughed out by mills and semi-finished by EDM
(Electrical Discharge Machining, which uses a graphite or copper tungsten
die to erode the base metal into a complex shape). The last step is hand
polishing. The mold will have a port where the molten plastic enters, and a
vent to allow the air in it to escape. Often, there are also provisions for
ejector pins to knock the part out of the mold once the thermoplastic has
set enough (which is usually a few seconds for a piece the size of a
cleat). You can sometimes see where some of the segments of the mold are by
looking for parting lines on the finished piece, but when molds are new or
well maintained, the joints between segments are good enough that those
lines are pretty minimal.

So the mold for a plastic part like a cleat is made from a few pieces of
metal and is designed to open up to allow the part to come out after it's
been made. It isn't like a mold for, say, a fibreglass part, where you can
make the mold out of fibreglass on the original, to-be-copied part (like a
boat hull or motorcycle bodywork) and peel it off (providing you used
enough mold release). So if the Look cleats were a bit loose, it would
likely be due to molds that were out of spec, or variations in cleat
material that might shrink more than anticipated, or by design.

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Tom Kunich]

"Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
news:GK4he.41351$gc6.12126@okepread04...
>
> "Tom Kunich" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Howard,
>>
>> Because plastic shrinks the real cleat model which is used to produce
>> the mold is made a little larger. Over the years they lose the original
>> cleat model. Then, when renewing the mold they use a regular cleat as a
>> model. If you use a cleat instead of the model the end result is that
>> the new mold produces a cleat a little bit smaller. Then when the make
>> a new mold from the new smaller cleat it comes out a little smaller
>> again.
>>
>
> Why would they do that instead of using the original specs they used for
> the
> initial molds?

Because it might cost $5,000 for the model to make the mold or even more in
France. And the French, for those unaware of it, are some of the, uhhhh,
thriftiest people I've ever met. One French company I worked for I got to
work early in the morning and discovered the bosses wife washing out the
paper coffee filters for reuse!!!

[Tom Kunich]

"Howard Kveck" > wrote in message
...
>
> Well, for any kind of plastic item that is to be made in quantities
> greater than a few (say, one or two pieces), no molds are made from an
> existing item, like a cleat. The molds for a mass produced part are
> machined from at least two pieces of aluminum or other metal (a top and
> bottom for a very simple part), to many pieces for a complicated piece
> that
> has overhangs, pockets or other features.

For crying out loud Howard - just look at the damned cleat - it is a
straight draw mold. This is supposed to be a profitable item and so the
molds are as cheap as they can be made.

[Howard Kveck]

In article >,
"Tom Kunich" > wrote:

> "Howard Kveck" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Well, for any kind of plastic item that is to be made in quantities
> > greater than a few (say, one or two pieces), no molds are made from an
> > existing item, like a cleat. The molds for a mass produced part are
> > machined from at least two pieces of aluminum or other metal (a top and
> > bottom for a very simple part), to many pieces for a complicated piece
> > that
> > has overhangs, pockets or other features.
>
> For crying out loud Howard - just look at the damned cleat - it is a
> straight draw mold. This is supposed to be a profitable item and so the
> molds are as cheap as they can be made.

Indeed. But it's still going to be made the same way. They're going to
be inexpensive but still effective. The point I was making is that the
molds aren't made from an existing part, they're machined to dimensions on
a drawing or CAD file. I'm going to be making a mold for a project I have
soon, and take it to the plastic shop that used to be next door to my shop
for production.

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Donald Munro]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> Because it might cost $5,000 for the model to make the mold or even more in
> France. And the French, for those unaware of it, are some of the, uhhhh,
> thriftiest people I've ever met. One French company I worked for I got to
> work early in the morning and discovered the bosses wife washing out the
> paper coffee filters for reuse!!!

And the moral of the story is: Don't buy French condoms (AKA freedom
letters) ?

[Bill C]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Howard Kveck" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Well, for any kind of plastic item that is to be made in
quantities
> > greater than a few (say, one or two pieces), no molds are made from
an
> > existing item, like a cleat. The molds for a mass produced part are
> > machined from at least two pieces of aluminum or other metal (a top
and
> > bottom for a very simple part), to many pieces for a complicated
piece
> > that
> > has overhangs, pockets or other features.
>
> For crying out loud Howard - just look at the damned cleat - it is a
> straight draw mold. This is supposed to be a profitable item and so
the
> molds are as cheap as they can be made.

Hey Tom
When I worked at Kellogg Brush as a mechanic and machine set-up guy
they did things exactly the way Howard is describing with their molds
and those were for things like brush handles which sell a lot for less
than cleats. The only thing they did was to have a "library" of the
prototype molds along with all the documentation as a reference in case
they ever needed them. Since all the stuff they were making was pretty
small this was no big deal to do and they were pretty picky about
getting exactly what they wanted.
I didn't work down in molding much so I don't know a lot of the
details, but the system sounds exactly like what Howard is describing
from talking to the engineers and mechanics down there.
Bill C

[Robert Chung]

Mike Murray wrote:
> For the most part here in the US the
> crisis of people lacking medical insurance is primarily an issue of
> people electing NOT to purchase rather than being unable to purchase.

Were that so, there'd be no need to call it a crisis. BTW,
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/insured.png

[Tom Kunich]

"Robert Chung" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Murray wrote:
>> For the most part here in the US the
>> crisis of people lacking medical insurance is primarily an issue of
>> people electing NOT to purchase rather than being unable to purchase.
>
> Were that so, there'd be no need to call it a crisis. BTW,
> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/insured.png

Here's the problem Robert - insurance companies have a great deal. Most of
the insurance in this country is for the healthiest segment of the
population - those working. Companies purchase health insurance policies and
this allows insurance companies to overprice all of their other private
insurance with the positive logic that those who aren't insured by company
policies are those who can't work either from age or infirmity.

Moreover, the US Government has made it very easy for companies because they
can write off the insurance and workers aren't taxed on it.

This is a BIG WIN for those who are healthy and of working age and it's ****
poor for everyone else.

The problem is, how do you put in place incentives for the insurance
companies to broaden their membership policies.

For one thing I wouldn't allow companies to write off health insurance.
Secondly I wouldn't allow workers to obtain free medical policies without
paying income tax on the hidden income.

This would provide incentives for companies to simply pay workers a stipend
for insurance coverage and it would provide insurance companies the horrible
alternative of insuring 'neighborhood' groups like they do in Germany and
some other European countries. This would mean that they set their insurance
rates for a general population rather than the healthiest subset.

Insurance companies need economic pressure to provide more general coverage,
but of course it needs to be done within the framework of the Constitution.

[Tom Kunich]

"Bill C" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> "Howard Kveck" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > Well, for any kind of plastic item that is to be made in
> quantities
>> > greater than a few (say, one or two pieces), no molds are made from
> an
>> > existing item, like a cleat. The molds for a mass produced part are
>> > machined from at least two pieces of aluminum or other metal (a top
> and
>> > bottom for a very simple part), to many pieces for a complicated
> piece
>> > that
>> > has overhangs, pockets or other features.
>>
>> For crying out loud Howard - just look at the damned cleat - it is a
>> straight draw mold. This is supposed to be a profitable item and so
> the
>> molds are as cheap as they can be made.
>
> Hey Tom
> When I worked at Kellogg Brush as a mechanic and machine set-up guy
> they did things exactly the way Howard is describing with their molds
> and those were for things like brush handles which sell a lot for less
> than cleats. The only thing they did was to have a "library" of the
> prototype molds along with all the documentation as a reference in case
> they ever needed them. Since all the stuff they were making was pretty
> small this was no big deal to do and they were pretty picky about
> getting exactly what they wanted.
> I didn't work down in molding much so I don't know a lot of the
> details, but the system sounds exactly like what Howard is describing
> from talking to the engineers and mechanics down there.
> Bill C

The system is as Howard states except that when you don't have the file on
the cleat you make one up by drawing it using a production cleat to measure
from.

Here's a question - I have a couple of new old-style cleats. These rattle in
a new Look pedal but work OK in my old Shimano Look-type pedals.

I bought the latest Look Delta cleats with the teflon inner areas and they
click in solidly.

Obviously there's a size difference here.

Do you suppose that they made the new cleats larger? Or that the old style
were originally undersized? Or that there's something in the process that
changes over time?

[Tom Kunich]

"Robert Chung" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Murray wrote:
>> For the most part here in the US the
>> crisis of people lacking medical insurance is primarily an issue of
>> people electing NOT to purchase rather than being unable to purchase.
>
> Were that so, there'd be no need to call it a crisis. BTW,
> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/insured.png

BTW, what the hell do you think you're seeing with that graph?

[Bill C]

Obviously you got some that were out of spec. I have to wonder if
they weren't outsourced to someone who wasn't as concerned about QC, or
they tried a cheaper plastic. I'd be really surprised if the problem
was in the molds at the plant Look had been making them at. We're never
going to know exactly what caused it. I'm sure they figured it out
pretty quickly, but they obviously weren't far enough out of spec to
reprocess. It really wouldn't surprise me to find out that they were
outsourced.
Bill C

[Howard Kveck]

In article et>,
"Tom Kunich" > wrote:

> The system is as Howard states except that when you don't have the file on
> the cleat you make one up by drawing it using a production cleat to measure
> from.

Well, since the pedals (and, by extension, the accompanying cleat) are a
mainstay of Look's business, I'd be pretty stunned to find out they don't
have a drawing or CAD file on hand. Stranger things have happened, but
still... Reverse engineering (aka "copying") is exactly how someone would
make unauthorized aftermarket ones. A smart engineer would know to increase
the size because the shrink rates of the plastic are known (or ought to be).

> Here's a question - I have a couple of new old-style cleats. These rattle in
> a new Look pedal but work OK in my old Shimano Look-type pedals.
>
> I bought the latest Look Delta cleats with the teflon inner areas and they
> click in solidly.
>
> Obviously there's a size difference here.
>
> Do you suppose that they made the new cleats larger? Or that the old style
> were originally undersized? Or that there's something in the process that
> changes over time?

Possibly (as Bill suggested) they were outsourced to a different vendor.
Or perhaps differences in material, heating rates prior to injection or
pressure of the injection (there are a few other variables, but those are
the main ones). The ones with the teflon inserts would be made from a very
different mold, however, as putting the two different materials in the same
finished piece is a two stage process.

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Robert Chung]

Tom Kunich wrote:

[Mostly cogent reply snipped]

Who the hell are you, and why are you posting with Tom Kunich's name?

[Robert Chung]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Robert Chung" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Mike Murray wrote:
>>> For the most part here in the US the
>>> crisis of people lacking medical insurance is primarily an issue of
>>> people electing NOT to purchase rather than being unable to purchase.
>>
>> Were that so, there'd be no need to call it a crisis. BTW,
>> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/insured.png
>
> BTW, what the hell do you think you're seeing with that graph?

Three things:

1. There's a lot of variability from state to state, so it doesn't make
much sense to talk about the situation "for the most part here in the US."
The situation in Minnesota is very different than the situations in Texas
or New Mexico.

2. Public "safety net" insurance (mostly, Medicare) doesn't quite make up
for private (mostly, employer-based) insurance across states. That's not a
normative statement: I'm not saying it should make up for it -- but this
is one of the few interstate comparisons of public vs. private insurance.

3. Makes you wonder about the nature of private employment in some of
those states, don't it?

[Mike Murray]

"Tom Kunich" > wrote:
"Most of the insurance in this country is for the healthiest segment of the
population - those working."

On the other hand there is a large segment of very health young people that
are not insured because they do not see that the value of insurance since
they are generally infrequent consumers of medical care. Since they don't
pay into the system the ones left in pay more. Insurance companies are not
economically motivated to sell people the small premium, high deductible
coverage that they really need to prevent bankruptcy from unexpected medical
losses. They would rather spend their efforts selling high premium
comprehensive group plans since the profit margin for the effort invested is
much higher. If you think about it the comprehensive medical insurance plan
that people often get from their employers are rather like if you purchase
car insurance which not only covered accidents but also regular maintenance,
tires, gas and even purchase of the automobile. Add that to the fact that
shopping for medical care based on cost is nearly impossible it is easy to
see why the system has spiraled out of control. If insurance covered all
your auto costs, including purchase, and you got your insurance from you
employer would you be driving the same car the same amount or would you be
more likely to buy a bigger, fancier car and drive it more frequently.

Tom is correct that the only way the system can really move towards more
efficiency and prices which actually represent market values is to make
coverage more universal and to have the individual consumer participate more
in cost decisions.

Mike Murray

[h squared]

Mike Murray wrote:


> On the other hand there is a large segment of very health young people that
> are not insured because they do not see that the value of insurance since
> they are generally infrequent consumers of medical care.

i thought of looking for insurance after reading your previous post. the
problem is, right now i'm able to save about $50 a month for medical
costs, and another $50 for other unforeseen bills (like, our roof right
now needs fixing as the gutters aren't correctly attached and so some of
the wood has rotted. earlier in the year i had to buy a clothes dryer).
so i could maybe, if it's available, buy insurance with the $50 that
i'm currently saving for medical costs. but then, how will i pay the
high deductible when i end up needing a service as i won't be able to
save up for medical costs if i also have to pay for insurance...

so i'm not looking for insurance right now, unless there's some solution
i'm not seeing.

heather

[Tom Kunich]

"Mike Murray" > wrote in message
...
> "Tom Kunich" > wrote:
> "Most of the insurance in this country is for the healthiest segment of
> the population - those working."
>
> On the other hand there is a large segment of very health young people
> that are not insured because they do not see that the value of insurance
> since they are generally infrequent consumers of medical care.

Absolutely, but that isn't he heart of the problem. The real problem is new
families who can't get insurance or those who have some relatively minor
health problems that disqualify them from medical insurance, such as
diabetis or high blood pressure that could cause problems 20 years down the
line but who cannot get and maintain insurance now.

My ex-brother-in-law was born without a pulmonary artery. He lived to 42
with that condition. He was lucky enough to get Kaiser at some time during
his early employment when they didn't ask embarassing questions and he then
held on to it forever after. Kaiser was doing absolutely everything to try
and shake him off but he held on tighter than a leech. Finally he had them
transplant a section of heart with a pulmonary artery on it and for the
first time in his life his blood oxygen was 98% instead of 72% or lower (I
didn't think anyone could live like that!) He's now in his 50's and still
has that Kaiser insurance and they're still crying every time his name comes
up.

He's a stupid jerk but I hope he lives to be 100.

> Insurance companies are not economically motivated to sell people the
> small premium, high deductible coverage that they really need to prevent
> bankruptcy from unexpected medical losses. They would rather spend their
> efforts selling high premium comprehensive group plans since the profit
> margin for the effort invested is much higher. If you think about it the
> comprehensive medical insurance plan that people often get from their
> employers are rather like if you purchase car insurance which not only
> covered accidents but also regular maintenance, tires, gas and even
> purchase of the automobile. Add that to the fact that shopping for
> medical care based on cost is nearly impossible it is easy to see why the
> system has spiraled out of control. If insurance covered all your auto
> costs, including purchase, and you got your insurance from you employer
> would you be driving the same car the same amount or would you be more
> likely to buy a bigger, fancier car and drive it more frequently.

BUT the insurance business is a GOOD business. It just has some screwy
priorities that it has to get straight (Capitalistic systems are basically
moral and ethical but they can be twisted as anything else.) Insurance
allows a whole group to prepare for the unexpected so that the load is
shared. A government can't do this with any efficiency because no one in a
government cares what anything costs.

> Tom is correct that the only way the system can really move towards more
> efficiency and prices which actually represent market values is to make
> coverage more universal and to have the individual consumer participate
> more in cost decisions.

We have to remember that when these people are uninsured, they fall back
onto the insurer of last resort - the taxpayer. It makes a great deal more
sense to have them IN the system than to be a ward OF the system.

[Tom Kunich]

"Robert Chung" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> "Robert Chung" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Mike Murray wrote:
>>>> For the most part here in the US the
>>>> crisis of people lacking medical insurance is primarily an issue of
>>>> people electing NOT to purchase rather than being unable to purchase.
>>>
>>> Were that so, there'd be no need to call it a crisis. BTW,
>>> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/insured.png
>>
>> BTW, what the hell do you think you're seeing with that graph?
>
> Three things:
>
> 1. There's a lot of variability from state to state, so it doesn't make
> much sense to talk about the situation "for the most part here in the US."
> The situation in Minnesota is very different than the situations in Texas
> or New Mexico.

I tried to find age related data for each of those states and it looks to me
like a lot of that sort of information is carefully hidden in the census
data.

My guess is that you'll find higher percentages of retired and young people
in those states with lower private insurance ownership.

That's what bothers me about this sort of data - you never get a clear
picture because someone is always trying to fulfill their agenda.

> 2. Public "safety net" insurance (mostly, Medicare) doesn't quite make up
> for private (mostly, employer-based) insurance across states. That's not a
> normative statement: I'm not saying it should make up for it -- but this
> is one of the few interstate comparisons of public vs. private insurance.
>
> 3. Makes you wonder about the nature of private employment in some of
> those states, don't it?

In states with VERY high illegal alien status and/or very low wages rates
the health insurance statistics are all screwed up.

[Tom Kunich]

"Howard Kveck" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>,
> "Tom Kunich" > wrote:
>
>> The system is as Howard states except that when you don't have the file
>> on
>> the cleat you make one up by drawing it using a production cleat to
>> measure
>> from.
>
> Well, since the pedals (and, by extension, the accompanying cleat) are a
> mainstay of Look's business, I'd be pretty stunned to find out they don't
> have a drawing or CAD file on hand.

But that doesn't mean that the mold maker has the NC machine that a CAD file
just plugs into. Remember that older industries still have the manual
numerical entry or even worse, one of those X-Y coordinate things that used
a paper tape. They're still very good machines but the data entry is a
question. Over the years since I've been using Look pedals the cleats have
gotten progressively looser and looser. Finally I stopped using the Look
pedals altogether and went to all of the swap meets and picked up as many
DuraAce and Ultrgra Look-type pedals I could so that their slightly tighter
fit would keep me in the pedals on climbs.

> Stranger things have happened, but
> still... Reverse engineering (aka "copying") is exactly how someone would
> make unauthorized aftermarket ones. A smart engineer would know to
> increase
> the size because the shrink rates of the plastic are known (or ought to
> be).

In a CAD program you can scale EVERYTHING with a single command. But first
you have to have the $45,000 program and someone that knows all the details
of how to use it.

I still prefer Look pedals to anything else and the latest cleats seem to
wear better than the older one's. I already have 2,000 miles on one set and
by now the older type would be breaking out at the rear clamp.

[Robert Chung]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Robert Chung" wrote:
>> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/insured.png
>>
>> 1. There's a lot of variability from state to state, so it doesn't make
>> much sense to talk about the situation "for the most part here in the
>> US." The situation in Minnesota is very different than the situations
>> in Texas or New Mexico.
>
> I tried to find age related data for each of those states and it looks
> to me like a lot of that sort of information is carefully hidden in the
> census data.
>
> My guess is that you'll find higher percentages of retired and young
> people in those states with lower private insurance ownership.

These are data for the non-elderly; the title of the graph tells you that.
I exclude the elderly since they're covered by Medicare. Medicaid
eligibility does indeed vary from state-to-state but in every state it
tries (sometimes more, sometimes less) to cover poor children, so the
percentages uninsured in that graph mostly tell you the story about
uninsured adults between 18 and 65.

> That's what bothers me about this sort of data - you never get a clear
> picture because someone is always trying to fulfill their agenda.

Sometimes it helps if you read the title of the graph and know something
about the nature of public health insurance. I made the graph not for the
ill-informed but for the semi-ill-informed: my students in a class on
health policy.

>> 2. Public "safety net" insurance (mostly, Medicare) doesn't quite make
>> up for private (mostly, employer-based) insurance across states.
>> That's not a normative statement: I'm not saying it should make up for
>> it -- but this is one of the few interstate comparisons of public vs.
>> private insurance.
>>
>> 3. Makes you wonder about the nature of private employment in some of
>> those states, don't it?
>
> In states with VERY high illegal alien status and/or very low wages
> rates the health insurance statistics are all screwed up.

Hmmm. They may indeed be screwed up, but these data are from the Current
Population Survey, not the Census or administrative data, so the direction
and magnitude of the screwiness isn't clear. To the extent that the CPS
misses illegal aliens or very low wage workers, they'd disappear from both
the numerator and the denominator.

So rather than correct for age structure, which you tried to do, or
illegal aliens, which you alluded to, a better thing might be to look at
characterisitics of the labor force. The US is odd among developed
countries in so heavily pegging insured status to a combination of
employment status and the characteristics of the employer rather than the
characteristics of the employed.

[Robert Chung]

Mike Murray wrote:
> Insurance companies are not economically motivated to sell people the
> small premium, high deductible coverage that they really need to
> prevent bankruptcy from unexpected medical losses.

They'd be killed by adverse selection. It could make sense for the Federal
government to do such a thing if the coverage were universal, and if there
were any sense in the Federal government.

> Tom is correct that the only way the system can really move towards more
> efficiency and prices which actually represent market values is to make
> coverage more universal and to have the individual consumer participate
> more in cost decisions.

I don't think the current system works like an efficient market at all, so
prices aren't good at sending the right signals.

[Robert Chung]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> A government can't do this with any efficiency
> because no one in a government cares what anything costs.

Well, it's possible that rather than "a" government, you meant "our"
government, whose Executive branch, Senate, and House are all controlled
by Republicans.

Remember this graphic?
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/pct-gdp.png

This accompanying graphic (updated to 2004 data)
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/healthexp.png
shows that the US isn't out-of-whack in the proportion of GDP spent by
government on health. The thing that makes the US an outlier is the amount
spent by private sources on health. Among the "westernized" countries on
that graphic, only in the US is a larger proportion of total health
expenditures spent by private rather than public sources.

A system with massive government intervention (like in much of Western
Europe) may be inefficient and ****ed up, but that doesn't mean that a
system with somewhat less government intervention can't also be
inefficient and potentially even more ****ed up.

[Steven L. Sheffield]

On 05/17/2005 10:06 PM, in article
et, "Tom Kunich"
> wrote:

> Over the years since I've been using Look pedals the cleats have
> gotten progressively looser and looser. Finally I stopped using the Look
> pedals altogether and went to all of the swap meets and picked up as many
> DuraAce and Ultrgra Look-type pedals I could so that their slightly tighter
> fit would keep me in the pedals on climbs.


A) Floating cleats (red Look or grey Campagnolo) vs. fixed cleats (black
Look)?

B) Spring-tension loosening up?


> I still prefer Look pedals to anything else and the latest cleats seem to
> wear better than the older one's. I already have 2,000 miles on one set and
> by now the older type would be breaking out at the rear clamp.


I've been riding Look pedals and Look (red/black) or Campagnolo (grey)
cleats for close to 15 years now, and I haven't noticed any change in how
tightly the various style cleats engage the pedals EXCEPT when the spring
tension has started to loosen up.

I also get better than 3000 miles in a set of cleats, unless I've been
walking around in them ... I replace my cleats when the nose gets to be
about 30% of its original thickness, instead of waiting until the nose
becomes razor-thin. I have NEVER broken out the back of a cleat.

So what are you doing to ****-up your cleats that they wear out so quickly?

Does anyone have any experience with the new Look KEO pedals/cleats? I
understand the new KEO cleats are NOT compatibile with older Look pedals.



--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash

[Mike Murray]

The real question here is how will you pay the $15-20,000 bill for
appendicitis should you get that. If you pay $50/month towards that bill it
will take you 25 plus years to cover that. 7-8% of the population will get
appendicitis at some point during their life and there really is nothing
that we know of that you can do to avoid it. Add in the risk of the many
other potential medical problems that you can have and the risk of a medical
loss causing bankruptcy becomes a lot more real.

Now if you instead put the $50/month towards a high deductible insurance you
would no longer have to worry about bankruptcy related to a sudden medical
cost.

--
Mike Murray
"h squared" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Murray wrote:
>
>
>> On the other hand there is a large segment of very health young people
>> that are not insured because they do not see that the value of insurance
>> since they are generally infrequent consumers of medical care.
>
> i thought of looking for insurance after reading your previous post. the
> problem is, right now i'm able to save about $50 a month for medical
> costs, and another $50 for other unforeseen bills (like, our roof right
> now needs fixing as the gutters aren't correctly attached and so some of
> the wood has rotted. earlier in the year i had to buy a clothes dryer). so
> i could maybe, if it's available, buy insurance with the $50 that i'm
> currently saving for medical costs. but then, how will i pay the high
> deductible when i end up needing a service as i won't be able to save up
> for medical costs if i also have to pay for insurance...
>
> so i'm not looking for insurance right now, unless there's some solution
> i'm not seeing.
>
> heather
>
>

[Mike Murray]

Tom is correct about the uninsurable, although one can argue about whether
the uninsurable specifically are a bigger problem than the uninsured in
general. In my experience there are LOTS of people that could buy insurance
but who choose not to. Eventually they develop medical problems that make
it impossible to get insurance since we all will eventually get those
problems eventually. Some people have those problems from the start, like
Tom's ex-brother-in-law with pulmonary atresia, but most acquire the
problems later in life after a point when they could have purchased
insurance.

The other point is that the uninsured not only fall back on the state to
cover their medical cost they also drive up the cost of care for the people
that do pay. The real key is that with the current system the poor don't
pay, the governmental payers pay discounted amounts, the insured pay
discounted amounts and the people paying out of their pockets pay an
inflated amount. This whole system makes it so that the "sticker price" is
roughly 3-5 times the actual market value. If the system had everyone
paying, everyone participating in the shared cost and usual free market
controls on prices we would all be a lot better off.

--
Mike Murray

"Tom Kunich" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> "Mike Murray" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Tom Kunich" > wrote:
>> "Most of the insurance in this country is for the healthiest segment of
>> the population - those working."
>>
>> On the other hand there is a large segment of very health young people
>> that are not insured because they do not see that the value of insurance
>> since they are generally infrequent consumers of medical care.
>
> Absolutely, but that isn't he heart of the problem. The real problem is
> new families who can't get insurance or those who have some relatively
> minor health problems that disqualify them from medical insurance, such as
> diabetis or high blood pressure that could cause problems 20 years down
> the line but who cannot get and maintain insurance now.
>
> My ex-brother-in-law was born without a pulmonary artery. He lived to 42
> with that condition. He was lucky enough to get Kaiser at some time during
> his early employment when they didn't ask embarassing questions and he
> then held on to it forever after. Kaiser was doing absolutely everything
> to try and shake him off but he held on tighter than a leech. Finally he
> had them transplant a section of heart with a pulmonary artery on it and
> for the first time in his life his blood oxygen was 98% instead of 72% or
> lower (I didn't think anyone could live like that!) He's now in his 50's
> and still has that Kaiser insurance and they're still crying every time
> his name comes up.
>
> He's a stupid jerk but I hope he lives to be 100.
>
>> Insurance companies are not economically motivated to sell people the
>> small premium, high deductible coverage that they really need to prevent
>> bankruptcy from unexpected medical losses. They would rather spend their
>> efforts selling high premium comprehensive group plans since the profit
>> margin for the effort invested is much higher. If you think about it the
>> comprehensive medical insurance plan that people often get from their
>> employers are rather like if you purchase car insurance which not only
>> covered accidents but also regular maintenance, tires, gas and even
>> purchase of the automobile. Add that to the fact that shopping for
>> medical care based on cost is nearly impossible it is easy to see why the
>> system has spiraled out of control. If insurance covered all your auto
>> costs, including purchase, and you got your insurance from you employer
>> would you be driving the same car the same amount or would you be more
>> likely to buy a bigger, fancier car and drive it more frequently.
>
> BUT the insurance business is a GOOD business. It just has some screwy
> priorities that it has to get straight (Capitalistic systems are basically
> moral and ethical but they can be twisted as anything else.) Insurance
> allows a whole group to prepare for the unexpected so that the load is
> shared. A government can't do this with any efficiency because no one in a
> government cares what anything costs.
>
>> Tom is correct that the only way the system can really move towards more
>> efficiency and prices which actually represent market values is to make
>> coverage more universal and to have the individual consumer participate
>> more in cost decisions.
>
> We have to remember that when these people are uninsured, they fall back
> onto the insurer of last resort - the taxpayer. It makes a great deal more
> sense to have them IN the system than to be a ward OF the system.
>
>

[Mike Murray]

I couldn't agree with this more.

--
Mike Murray
"Robert Chung" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Murray wrote:
>> Insurance companies are not economically motivated to sell people the
>> small premium, high deductible coverage that they really need to
>> prevent bankruptcy from unexpected medical losses.
>
> They'd be killed by adverse selection. It could make sense for the Federal
> government to do such a thing if the coverage were universal, and if there
> were any sense in the Federal government.
>
>> Tom is correct that the only way the system can really move towards more
>> efficiency and prices which actually represent market values is to make
>> coverage more universal and to have the individual consumer participate
>> more in cost decisions.
>
> I don't think the current system works like an efficient market at all, so
> prices aren't good at sending the right signals.
>
>

[h squared]

Mike Murray wrote:

> The real question here is how will you pay the $15-20,000 bill for
> appendicitis should you get that. If you pay $50/month towards that bill it
> will take you 25 plus years to cover that. 7-8% of the population will get
> appendicitis at some point during their life and there really is nothing
> that we know of that you can do to avoid it. Add in the risk of the many
> other potential medical problems that you can have and the risk of a medical
> loss causing bankruptcy becomes a lot more real.
>
> Now if you instead put the $50/month towards a high deductible insurance you
> would no longer have to worry about bankruptcy related to a sudden medical
> cost.
>

well, i did tell my boyfriend that i don't ever want to be admitted to
the hospital, and if i have to be admitted in order to have surgery, i
want him to come and take me out of there as soon as i'm awake.

if i follow your advice, then i won't ever be able to get my teeth
filled if i get a cavity (because i will have no money to pay for it,
the dentist is cash on delivery you know, etc). and i did once go 5
years without seeing a dentist because i had no money to do so. isn't
getting your immediate medical needs met more important than avoiding
bankruptcy? i never borrow money, bankruptcy wouldn't be the end of the
world (afaik..)

is there insurance that only costs $50 a month? (you seemed to know
about it so i'm asking if you know a good one, just in case). if i did
make this strange sacrifice, i would want something that didn't have a
limit on what it would pay. i've heard stories of people who had to file
bankruptcy because their insurance would only pay for a certain amount
and they had to exceed it :(

heather

[gds]

h squared wrote:

> bankruptcy? i never borrow money, bankruptcy wouldn't be the end of
the
> world (afaik..)
>

It may be closer to that end than you think. Bankrupty stays on your
credit history for quite a while and even if you don't borrow money it
could effect your ability to rent and/or get a new job.

While bankrptcy is a reasonable (and perhaps the only) option in some
situations it is not a free good and that decsion should not be taken
lightly.

That said, many credit givers will be more understanding of problems
paying off medical bills and view that as a bit different from just
running up creedit charges at Macy's.

But if you can afford it insurance is certainly helpfull.

[h squared]

gds wrote:

> While bankrptcy is a reasonable (and perhaps the only) option in some
> situations it is not a free good and that decsion should not be taken
> lightly.

well, it's definitely not something i strive for ;)

> That said, many credit givers will be more understanding of problems
> paying off medical bills and view that as a bit different from just
> running up creedit charges at Macy's.
>
> But if you can afford it insurance is certainly helpfull.

check!

h

[Tom Kunich]

"h squared" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Murray wrote:
>
>> The real question here is how will you pay the $15-20,000 bill for
>> appendicitis should you get that. If you pay $50/month towards that bill
>> it will take you 25 plus years to cover that. 7-8% of the population will
>> get appendicitis at some point during their life and there really is
>> nothing that we know of that you can do to avoid it. Add in the risk of
>> the many other potential medical problems that you can have and the risk
>> of a medical loss causing bankruptcy becomes a lot more real.
>>
>> Now if you instead put the $50/month towards a high deductible insurance
>> you would no longer have to worry about bankruptcy related to a sudden
>> medical cost.
>>
>
> well, i did tell my boyfriend that i don't ever want to be admitted to the
> hospital, and if i have to be admitted in order to have surgery, i want
> him to come and take me out of there as soon as i'm awake.
>
> if i follow your advice, then i won't ever be able to get my teeth filled
> if i get a cavity (because i will have no money to pay for it, the dentist
> is cash on delivery you know, etc). and i did once go 5 years without
> seeing a dentist because i had no money to do so. isn't getting your
> immediate medical needs met more important than avoiding bankruptcy? i
> never borrow money, bankruptcy wouldn't be the end of the world (afaik..)

Geez Heather, why don't you either get a better paying job (In Seattle?
SURE!) or get a boyfriend that can actually make a living?

[Tom Kunich]

"Robert Chung" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> A government can't do this with any efficiency
>> because no one in a government cares what anything costs.
>
> Well, it's possible that rather than "a" government, you meant "our"
> government, whose Executive branch, Senate, and House are all controlled
> by Republicans.

Robert, then by all means if you need a major operation for a serious
illness get treated in Denmark or Poland.

[Tom Kunich]

"Steven L. Sheffield" > wrote in message
...
> On 05/17/2005 10:06 PM, in article
> et, "Tom Kunich"
> > wrote:
>
>> Over the years since I've been using Look pedals the cleats have
>> gotten progressively looser and looser. Finally I stopped using the Look
>> pedals altogether and went to all of the swap meets and picked up as many
>> DuraAce and Ultrgra Look-type pedals I could so that their slightly
>> tighter
>> fit would keep me in the pedals on climbs.
>
>
> A) Floating cleats (red Look or grey Campagnolo) vs. fixed cleats (black
> Look)?
>
> B) Spring-tension loosening up?

Latest style cleats clip in to my Look brand pedals and hold tightly and
release cleanly. Therefore it ain't a pedal problem but a cleat problem.
Obviously they finally realized it since Look sales were falling though the
floor and they've corrected it.

Now the Look pedals feel as good as they ever did and they hold well on
climbs again. Now if they wear better they will be the perfect pedal.

>> I still prefer Look pedals to anything else and the latest cleats seem to
>> wear better than the older one's. I already have 2,000 miles on one set
>> and
>> by now the older type would be breaking out at the rear clamp.
>
> I've been riding Look pedals and Look (red/black) or Campagnolo (grey)
> cleats for close to 15 years now, and I haven't noticed any change in how
> tightly the various style cleats engage the pedals EXCEPT when the spring
> tension has started to loosen up.

Bet you've been using the Campy cleats lately. I went to those for awhile
and they worked well but of course Campy changed their pedal mechanism and
started using different cleats.

> I also get better than 3000 miles in a set of cleats, unless I've been
> walking around in them

Again I'd bet that you timed your Campy cleats which were MUCH better than
the Look reds. I generally get about 1400-1500 miles on the old style red
Look cleats. Twice that with the Campy grey.

> ... I replace my cleats when the nose gets to be
> about 30% of its original thickness, instead of waiting until the nose
> becomes razor-thin. I have NEVER broken out the back of a cleat.

When you come to a stop you put your foot down toe first. I put mine down
heel first.

> So what are you doing to ****-up your cleats that they wear out so
> quickly?

200 lbs and a lot of stop lights.

[Howard Kveck]

In article et>,
"Tom Kunich" > wrote:

> But that doesn't mean that the mold maker has the NC machine that a CAD file
> just plugs into. Remember that older industries still have the manual
> numerical entry or even worse, one of those X-Y coordinate things that used
> a paper tape. They're still very good machines but the data entry is a
> question.

Well, I'm speculating here, but I feel pretty certain when I say that
almost all mold makers either have or have access to a reasonable CNC mill,
unless they know they'll be only making very simple molds. Those older
machines have been moved back to doing jobs that they're better suited for
(simpler stuff), or sold to third-world shops. Newer machines have gotten
fairly inexpensive and have good controls that'll do simultaneous three (or
more) axis cuts without batting an eye (so to speak). And that kind of
movement is one of the reasons why it's gotten easier to make parts (and
molds) with very complex shapes quickly and relatively easily.

I've worked in shops where older machines have been retrofitted with new
controls and servos, too. I haven't seen a tape reader machine in at least
12 years, though I know of shops with them.

A CAD file is imported into a CAM (computer aided machining) application
(or is created right in the CAD/CAM app), and then the programmer uses that
to make tool paths and create code that the CNC control understands.

> In a CAD program you can scale EVERYTHING with a single command. But first
> you have to have the $45,000 program and someone that knows all the details
> of how to use it.

A lot of CNC machine controls have scaling in them. CAD/CAM programs
*can* be that (and more) expensive, but there are many that are very
functional for far less, like in the $3-4k range. Some of the most commonly
used ones (like Mastercam or Gibbs) can be had for less than $10k. And they
aren't all that hard to use if you spend the time to figure it out. The
devil's in the details, of course...

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Robert Chung]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Robert Chung" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> A government can't do this with any efficiency
>>> because no one in a government cares what anything costs.
>>
>> Well, it's possible that rather than "a" government, you meant "our"
>> government, whose Executive branch, Senate, and House are all
>> controlled by Republicans.
>
> Robert, then by all means if you need a major operation for a serious
> illness get treated in Denmark or Poland.

Oh, Tom. How long have you been under the misperception that the only
three governments in the world are the US, Denmark, and Poland?

[Robert Chung]

Tom Kunich wrote:
>> Robert, then by all means if you need a major operation for a serious
>> illness get treated in Denmark or Poland.

BTW, it's possible to get good (or poor) quality care in Denmark or
Poland, just as it is possible to get good (or poor) quality care in the
US. No matter what level of quality of care you get, it's likely to be
less costly in Denmark or Poland.

[h squared]

Tom Kunich wrote:

> Geez Heather, why don't you either get a better paying job (In Seattle?
> SURE!)

the job i have is the best job i've ever had (pay wise at least), but
thank you for the compliment!

> or get a boyfriend that can actually make a living?

here's a little off topic story for you:
when i was 15, i didn't know what to be when i "grew up". but then one
day i had an epiphany and i was very happy. i told my parents i had
decided on a career path, so they asked what it was going to be, and i
said i wanted to be one of those people who come and clear out your
pipes when they get blocked. i thought they would be happy for me, but
my mother got all mad and told me i was selfish or some thing. so
instead i went to college and got a math degree. so now i deliver food.
(and my job is important in the respect that everybody needs to eat and
someone needs to distribute the food, so i do feel some pride in it.)

my boyfriend has a similar story, except he wanted to be a tugboat
captain (they make gooood money). but his parents disagreed, so he went
to school and got a degree in anthropology. luckily, the government has
a program for people with that degree to rehabilitate them- they make
them work at the irs to give them real world skills...

anyhoo, i've been thinking of applying at an actual grocery store,
because they sometimes are large chains and can offer benefits,.

heather

[Bob Schwartz]

Robert Chung > wrote:
> Remember this graphic?
> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/pct-gdp.png

> This accompanying graphic (updated to 2004 data)
> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/healthexp.png
> shows that the US isn't out-of-whack in the proportion of GDP spent by
> government on health. The thing that makes the US an outlier is the amount
> spent by private sources on health. Among the "westernized" countries on
> that graphic, only in the US is a larger proportion of total health
> expenditures spent by private rather than public sources.

> A system with massive government intervention (like in much of Western
> Europe) may be inefficient and ****ed up, but that doesn't mean that a
> system with somewhat less government intervention can't also be
> inefficient and potentially even more ****ed up.

Does that include things like lasik and cosmetic surgery?

I'm just wondering the extent to which that is explained by inefficiency
and how much is explained by disposable income being spent on medical
procedures. Things that would have no impact on life expectancy.

In the US there is an entire industry built around looking better, guys
like this:

http://www.rsplastic.com

As a nation's wealth increases, does the data point move towards that
of the US.

Bob Schwartz

[Robert Chung]

Bob Schwartz wrote:
>
> I'm just wondering the extent to which that is explained by inefficiency
> and how much is explained by disposable income being spent on medical
> procedures. Things that would have no impact on life expectancy.
>
> In the US there is an entire industry built around looking better, guys
> like this:
>
> http://www.rsplastic.com
>
> As a nation's wealth increases, does the data point move towards that
> of the US.

We spend about 14% of our GDP on health care, while no one else pays even
10%. Even though I lived in Santa Monica, I don't think that implants and
lasik account for that much.

But it's also true that not all of the difference is inefficiency. We buy
different things with our health care money than other countries do. I'm
just pointing out that when Tom said that governments are inefficient,
that was a red herring.

[Tom Kunich]

"h squared" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> Geez Heather, why don't you either get a better paying job (In Seattle?
>> SURE!)
>
> the job i have is the best job i've ever had (pay wise at least), but
> thank you for the compliment!
>
>> or get a boyfriend that can actually make a living?
>
> here's a little off topic story for you:
> when i was 15, i didn't know what to be when i "grew up". but then one day
> i had an epiphany and i was very happy. i told my parents i had decided on
> a career path, so they asked what it was going to be, and i said i wanted
> to be one of those people who come and clear out your pipes when they get
> blocked. i thought they would be happy for me, but my mother got all mad
> and told me i was selfish or some thing. so instead i went to college and
> got a math degree. so now i deliver food. (and my job is important in the
> respect that everybody needs to eat and someone needs to distribute the
> food, so i do feel some pride in it.)
>
> my boyfriend has a similar story, except he wanted to be a tugboat captain
> (they make gooood money). but his parents disagreed, so he went to school
> and got a degree in anthropology. luckily, the government has a program
> for people with that degree to rehabilitate them- they make them work at
> the irs to give them real world skills...
>
> anyhoo, i've been thinking of applying at an actual grocery store, because
> they sometimes are large chains and can offer benefits,.
>
> heather

I'm familiar with the job situation in Washington state, but wow, you could
probably make more as a Walmart greeter in California. I've got a spare
room...... :-P

[Carl Sundquist]

"Tom Kunich" > wrote in message
>
> Here's the problem Robert - insurance companies have a great deal. Most of
> the insurance in this country is for the healthiest segment of the
> population - those working. Companies purchase health insurance policies
and
> this allows insurance companies to overprice all of their other private
> insurance with the positive logic that those who aren't insured by company
> policies are those who can't work either from age or infirmity.
>
> Moreover, the US Government has made it very easy for companies because
they
> can write off the insurance and workers aren't taxed on it.
>
> This is a BIG WIN for those who are healthy and of working age and it's
****
> poor for everyone else.
>
> The problem is, how do you put in place incentives for the insurance
> companies to broaden their membership policies.
>
> For one thing I wouldn't allow companies to write off health insurance.
> Secondly I wouldn't allow workers to obtain free medical policies without
> paying income tax on the hidden income.
>
> This would provide incentives for companies to simply pay workers a
stipend
> for insurance coverage and it would provide insurance companies the
horrible
> alternative of insuring 'neighborhood' groups like they do in Germany and
> some other European countries. This would mean that they set their
insurance
> rates for a general population rather than the healthiest subset.
>

The problem with this model is that you couldn't force people to use the
stipend on health insurance. A certain segment of retirees in the US has no
other income besides social security or asset reserves. If they didn't have
social security to fall back on, they would have absolutely nothing.
Similarly, some people on food stamps go out and buy Ding Dongs and pork
rinds. If employers provided stipends, a similar percentage of workers would
spend the money on other things besides health insurance. If a plan of this
nature were to take place, you'd have to issue vouchers.

[Tom Kunich]

"Carl Sundquist" > wrote in message
news:kqdje.41734$gc6.477@okepread04...
>
> The problem with this model is that you couldn't force people to use the
> stipend on health insurance.

But then donkeys couldn't complain that people don't have health insurance.
Though 20:1 Robert still would.

> A certain segment of retirees in the US has no
> other income besides social security or asset reserves. If they didn't
> have
> social security to fall back on, they would have absolutely nothing.

Err, yeah, but who's talking about SS?

> Similarly, some people on food stamps go out and buy Ding Dongs and pork
> rinds. If employers provided stipends, a similar percentage of workers
> would
> spend the money on other things besides health insurance. If a plan of
> this
> nature were to take place, you'd have to issue vouchers.

No, because the employer ISN'T supplying health insurance. He's getting out
of the loop so that insurers can't tell who are the workers and who aren't.
And that's because "workers" = MOST HEALTHY SEGMENT.

[Robert Chung]

h squared wrote:
> so instead i went to college and got a math degree. so now i
> deliver food.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/3e37ef4bd5676eba

> my boyfriend has a similar story, except he wanted to be a tugboat
> captain

Me too. The influence of
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039922419X/qid=1116578251/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-7175373-7840111?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

though on re-reading I note that the only thing that "came out of his
whistle was a gay, small -toot-toot-toot."

[Robert Chung]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "h squared" wrote:
>>
>> anyhoo, i've been thinking of applying at an actual grocery store,
>> because they sometimes are large chains and can offer benefits,.
>
> I'm familiar with the job situation in Washington state, but wow, you
> could probably make more as a Walmart greeter in California.

Wal-Mart and healthcare benefits:
http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/facts/#healthcare

[Carl Sundquist]

"Tom Kunich" > wrote in message
> >
> > The problem with this model is that you couldn't force people to use the
> > stipend on health insurance.
>
> But then donkeys couldn't complain that people don't have health
insurance.
> Though 20:1 Robert still would.
>
> > A certain segment of retirees in the US has no
> > other income besides social security or asset reserves. If they didn't
> > have
> > social security to fall back on, they would have absolutely nothing.
>
> Err, yeah, but who's talking about SS?
>
> > Similarly, some people on food stamps go out and buy Ding Dongs and pork
> > rinds. If employers provided stipends, a similar percentage of workers
> > would
> > spend the money on other things besides health insurance. If a plan of
> > this
> > nature were to take place, you'd have to issue vouchers.
>
> No, because the employer ISN'T supplying health insurance. He's getting
out
> of the loop so that insurers can't tell who are the workers and who
aren't.
> And that's because "workers" = MOST HEALTHY SEGMENT.
>

What you propose would make health insurance costs more affordable. I'm not
sure how much of a change it would have in the % of people covered.

[h squared]

Robert Chung wrote:

> Me too. The influence of
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039922419X/qid=1116578251/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-7175373-7840111?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
>
> though on re-reading I note that the only thing that "came out of his
> whistle was a gay, small -toot-toot-toot."

lol,
"The story is about a frivolous young tugboat that would rather play than
work. This damages his own and his family's reputation. By the time he
is ready to turn over a new leaf, none will take him seriously. He does
get his big chance, however, and redeems himself while saving the day
when nobody else can."

i never read your book, but i read this one many times (as have plenty
of other people, i'm sure)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0307020460/ref=pd_sim_b_3/102-8997155-6221748?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
"Scuffy is a toy tugboat (hence the title) who dreams of something more
than "sailing" in his little bathtub. When he is taken outside and
accidentally swept away in a river, his harrowing adventure makes him
realize that he should never have taken his old life for granted."

wow, i feel morally irresponsible just reading the summaries of those
two stories. must go off to work now, and not damage my family's
reputation ;)

heather

[Robert Chung]

h squared wrote:
> "Scuffy is a toy tugboat (hence the title) who dreams of something more
> than "sailing" in his little bathtub. When he is taken outside and
> accidentally swept away in a river, his harrowing adventure makes him
> realize that he should never have taken his old life for granted."

Hmmm. The moral of that story is vaguely like that of "La petite chevre de
M. Seguin." The little goat longs for the alpine meadows high above the
farm, where the sun is bright and the grass is tasty, so M. Seguin is
forced to tie her up. She tries numerous times to escape and M. Seguin
constructs more elaborate ways to keep her. Finally, the ingenious little
goat succeeds in slipping the knot. All day she frolics in the meadows.
Then she gets eaten by a wolf.

[Robert Chung]

Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> What you propose would make health insurance costs more affordable. I'm
> not sure how much of a change it would have in the % of people covered.

I'm not sure what he proposes would make health insurance more affordable.

[Robert Chung]

> Hmmm. The moral of that story is vaguely like that of "La petite chevre
> de M. Seguin." The little goat longs for the alpine meadows high above
> the farm, where the sun is bright and the grass is tasty, so M. Seguin
> is forced to tie her up. She tries numerous times to escape and M.
> Seguin constructs more elaborate ways to keep her. Finally, the
> ingenious little goat succeeds in slipping the knot. All day she
> frolics in the meadows. Then she gets eaten by a wolf.

I've just been informed that my synopsis may not have conveyed the entire
sense of the fable. All day she frolics in the meadows. Then, when night
falls, she is terrorized by a fierce wolf. She defends herself bravely,
using all the determination and ingenuity she exhibited earlier in her
escape attempts. Then, after a long night and in sight of dawn, she gets
eaten by the wolf.

This is a story for pre-schoolers.

[Stewart Fleming]

Robert Chung wrote:

> I've just been informed that my synopsis may not have conveyed the entire
> sense of the fable. All day she frolics in the meadows. Then, when night
> falls, she is terrorized by a fierce wolf. She defends herself bravely,
> using all the determination and ingenuity she exhibited earlier in her
> escape attempts. Then, after a long night and in sight of dawn, she gets
> eaten by the wolf.
>
> This is a story for pre-schoolers.

Can you compare and contrast this story with that, say, of "My Pet
Goat", as read to schoolchildren in the US by one M. G. W. Bush?

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Fri, 20 May 2005 18:52:44 +0200, "Robert Chung"
> wrote:

>> Hmmm. The moral of that story is vaguely like that of "La petite chevre
>> de M. Seguin." The little goat longs for the alpine meadows high above
>> the farm, where the sun is bright and the grass is tasty, so M. Seguin
>> is forced to tie her up. She tries numerous times to escape and M.
>> Seguin constructs more elaborate ways to keep her. Finally, the
>> ingenious little goat succeeds in slipping the knot. All day she
>> frolics in the meadows. Then she gets eaten by a wolf.
>
>I've just been informed that my synopsis may not have conveyed the entire
>sense of the fable. All day she frolics in the meadows. Then, when night
>falls, she is terrorized by a fierce wolf. She defends herself bravely,
>using all the determination and ingenuity she exhibited earlier in her
>escape attempts. Then, after a long night and in sight of dawn, she gets
>eaten by the wolf.
>
>This is a story for pre-schoolers.
>
What about "La Boum"?

JT



****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

[Tim Lines]

h squared wrote:
> so
> instead i went to college and got a math degree.

From UW, by chance? That's where I got mine.

[Tom Kunich]

By the way Heather, as proof that sometimes things work out well for you - I
wanted to be a mechanic. Instead I'm an electronics engineer that makes
about twice what a full time dealership mechanic makes.

We had a tugboat captain and a couple of his crew as members of the yacht
club I belong to. One night he had to dodge some nut in a small boat, the
tow overran the boat, capsized it and everyone was lost.

Anthropology is a bitch to get into, but when you find your place in life it
ain't a bad one at all. Give him all of my best wishes for him and you.

Tom


"h squared" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> Geez Heather, why don't you either get a better paying job (In Seattle?
>> SURE!)
>
> the job i have is the best job i've ever had (pay wise at least), but
> thank you for the compliment!
>
>> or get a boyfriend that can actually make a living?
>
> here's a little off topic story for you:
> when i was 15, i didn't know what to be when i "grew up". but then one day
> i had an epiphany and i was very happy. i told my parents i had decided on
> a career path, so they asked what it was going to be, and i said i wanted
> to be one of those people who come and clear out your pipes when they get
> blocked. i thought they would be happy for me, but my mother got all mad
> and told me i was selfish or some thing. so instead i went to college and
> got a math degree. so now i deliver food. (and my job is important in the
> respect that everybody needs to eat and someone needs to distribute the
> food, so i do feel some pride in it.)
>
> my boyfriend has a similar story, except he wanted to be a tugboat captain
> (they make gooood money). but his parents disagreed, so he went to school
> and got a degree in anthropology. luckily, the government has a program
> for people with that degree to rehabilitate them- they make them work at
> the irs to give them real world skills...
>
> anyhoo, i've been thinking of applying at an actual grocery store, because
> they sometimes are large chains and can offer benefits,.
>
> heather
>
>

[Tom Kunich]

"Robert Chung" > wrote in message
...
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>
>> What you propose would make health insurance costs more affordable. I'm
>> not sure how much of a change it would have in the % of people covered.
>
> I'm not sure what he proposes would make health insurance more affordable.

What I'm proposing would probably keep health care costs about the same but
I believe would force insurance companies to offer insurance to everyone at
about the same rates rather than the present system of less expensive to
workers through their work and REALLY expensive for equal insurance coverage
to private insured.

The reason that it wouldn't go up is because the health care benefit is now
taxed and so workers aren't going to be happy paying full price what they
get for 30% off now. In order to keep their income base insurance companies
will have to charge what the traffic is willing to pay.

Of course it might cut into the income of American doctors a bit.

[Robert Chung]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> The reason that it wouldn't go up is because the health care benefit is
> now taxed and so workers aren't going to be happy paying full price
> what they get for 30% off now.

So you're saying your solution involves raising taxes on workers?

[h squared]

Tim Lines wrote:

> From UW, by chance? That's where I got mine.

i went to western. when i was in high school my favorite teacher ever
told me that he thought western seemed like a good school for me, so
that's the only place i applied ;)

but i thought you had a degree in economics, or do you have several? (so
now it's- running a marathon, the fed, inline skating, only bathing
occasionally, lattes&boobs, and math degrees- we have in common, if you
were keeping track)

heather

[h squared]

Tom Kunich wrote:

> By the way Heather, as proof that sometimes things work out well for you - I
> wanted to be a mechanic. Instead I'm an electronics engineer that makes
> about twice what a full time dealership mechanic makes.
>
> We had a tugboat captain and a couple of his crew as members of the yacht
> club I belong to. One night he had to dodge some nut in a small boat, the
> tow overran the boat, capsized it and everyone was lost.
>
> Anthropology is a bitch to get into, but when you find your place in life it
> ain't a bad one at all. Give him all of my best wishes for him and you.
>
> Tom

you're nice, and i don't want you to worry! i feel like i have it quite
good, compared to both the past and the people i see around me every
day. i do think it's funny that parents can be so adamant that their
children succeed that they end up pushing them off the track. my brother
who is 8 years younger than me didn't have any pressure to become some
kind of professional. he dropped out of high school and my dad got him a
job for awhile at "the factory" quite literally. then he got married and
he and his wife went off to college on their own motivation. she's
becoming a vet and he's starting law school. soon he will be living the
life of luxury, just like lafferty...but if he starts posting obsessive
LANCE musings on rbr i promise to smack him in the head for y'all.

heather

[h squared]

Robert Chung wrote:


> This is a story for pre-schoolers.

yikes! i'm assuming it's a french thing. i hope your wife told you this
story and not your children.
h

[Howard Kveck]

In article >,
h squared > wrote:

> Robert Chung wrote:
>
>
> > This is a story for pre-schoolers.
>
> yikes! i'm assuming it's a french thing. i hope your wife told you this
> story and not your children.
> h

It doesn't seem all that far off what the Brothers Grimm wrote.

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Tim Lines]

h squared wrote:
> Tim Lines wrote:
>
>> From UW, by chance? That's where I got mine.
>
>
> i went to western. when i was in high school my favorite teacher ever
> told me that he thought western seemed like a good school for me, so
> that's the only place i applied ;)
>
> but i thought you had a degree in economics, or do you have several? (so
> now it's- running a marathon, the fed, inline skating, only bathing
> occasionally, lattes&boobs, and math degrees- we have in common, if you
> were keeping track)

'79-'81 I was at West Virginia University majoring in Economics with a
minor in partying my brains out. Times being what they were and
Morgantown WV being what it is, jobs were impossible to find. Openings
at McDonalds generated huge lines. So I ran out of money and joined the
AF. I got out in 1992 and moved up here, working for what used to be
Control Data Corp. And that company, despite the fact that they were
bleeding money, was willing to pay all the bills for me to go to school.
My boss was willing to let me jerk my schedule around too (come in at
5, unlock the computer lab, start everything up, run to school at 9,
etc.) so I started going to school full time while working full time
too. I was going to get a Computer Science degree. Somewhere in the
middle of that, my daughter (3rd child) was born. When she got to be 6
months old or so, I'd get home at 8 in the evening and I'd sit down to
do my homework. Everyday, my daughter would get all excited to see me,
roll and crawl my direction, pull herself up and want to play with me.
Big smile on her face, squealing. Also, she'd toss my homework around.
Couldn't get mad at her. Wasn't gonna stop her. So I quit being so
anal about getting all my homework done, gave up on getting a Computer
Science degree and found the quickest way out the doors of UW. The way
my credits fell, that turned out to be a math degree. Which is OK. I
already had job skills. I just needed a degree to satisfy the HR
department at CDC that I was qualified to do the work I was already
doing. Where ever I've gone since then, I've found that HR departments
react slightly differently to people with college degrees than people
without.

So that's the long explanation. Not quite as much fun as lattes&boobs.

[Robert Chung]

Howard Kveck wrote:
> It doesn't seem all that far off what the Brothers Grimm wrote.

http://herve.flores.online.fr/V-illus/liens/chevre.html

[h squared]

Howard Kveck wrote:


> It doesn't seem all that far off what the Brothers Grimm wrote.

i agree that fairy tales often are quite horrible. the difference to me
being most of them have the protagonist struggle using their talents,
etc, to come out on top in the end.

i have in a book the version (which happens to be french, hmmm) of
little red riding hood where this doesn't happen- the wolf simply eats
the grandma and l.r.r.h. but when the grimm brothers "covered" this
story, they gave it a happier ending-

"Some school boards in the U.S. have been pressured to blacklist this
fairy tale because of its "overtly" sexual content. Yet the Grimms
consciously made their tale more innocent and less erotic than earlier
versions. They also restored a "happy ending," which true folktales
always have. An earlier, more literary French version left Little Red in
the Wolf's stomach - the better to scare you with its moral!

Contrary to popular ideas, the Grimm Brothers did not simply write down
the exact words of an oral storyteller. They conflated their tale from
three sources: a French tale, "Le petit chaperon rouge," published by
Charles Perrault in 1697; the single oral version they could find,
collected from a well-educated French Huguenot woman named Jeanette
Hassenpflug, who probably also knew Perrault's tale; and a play, "Leben
und Tod des kleinen Rotkäppchens: eine Tragödie," written in 1800 by the
German Romantic writer Ludwig Tieck. Tieck invented the hunter who
rescues Rotkäppchen and her grandmother from the Wolf. "
http://mld.ursinus.edu/Maerchen/rrhintro.html

heather
"Never again will you stray from the path by yourself and go into the
forest when your mother has forbidden it"

[Robert Chung]

h squared wrote:
> i have in a book the version (which happens to be french, hmmm) of
> little red riding hood where this doesn't happen- the wolf simply eats
> the grandma and l.r.r.h.

http://chaperon.rouge.online.fr/perraultfr.htm

> "Some school boards in the U.S. have been pressured to blacklist this
> fairy tale because of its "overtly" sexual content. Yet the Grimms
> consciously made their tale more innocent and less erotic than earlier
> versions.

Peau d'Ane is pretty weird, involving incest and a donkey that ****s gold.
It's another Perrault tale. The Grimms retold it is as Allerleirauh.
Catherine Deneuve played Peau d'Ane in the filmed version.

[Robert Chung]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>
>> This is a story for pre-schoolers.
>>
> What about "La Boum"?

That's a story for dirty old men.

[Howard Kveck]

In article >,
h squared > wrote:

> Howard Kveck wrote:
>
>
> > It doesn't seem all that far off what the Brothers Grimm wrote.
>
> i agree that fairy tales often are quite horrible. the difference to me
> being most of them have the protagonist struggle using their talents,
> etc, to come out on top in the end.
>
> i have in a book the version (which happens to be french, hmmm) of
> little red riding hood where this doesn't happen- the wolf simply eats
> the grandma and l.r.r.h. but when the grimm brothers "covered" this
> story, they gave it a happier ending-

Then there's: http://tinyurl.com/96ov2

> "Some school boards in the U.S. have been pressured to blacklist this
> fairy tale because of its "overtly" sexual content. Yet the Grimms
> consciously made their tale more innocent and less erotic than earlier
> versions. They also restored a "happy ending," which true folktales
> always have. An earlier, more literary French version left Little Red in
> the Wolf's stomach - the better to scare you with its moral!
>
> Contrary to popular ideas, the Grimm Brothers did not simply write down
> the exact words of an oral storyteller. They conflated their tale from
> three sources: a French tale, "Le petit chaperon rouge," published by
> Charles Perrault in 1697; the single oral version they could find,
> collected from a well-educated French Huguenot woman named Jeanette
> Hassenpflug, who probably also knew Perrault's tale; and a play, "Leben
> und Tod des kleinen Rotkäppchens: eine Tragödie," written in 1800 by the
> German Romantic writer Ludwig Tieck. Tieck invented the hunter who
> rescues Rotkäppchen and her grandmother from the Wolf. "
> http://mld.ursinus.edu/Maerchen/rrhintro.html

From that:

"The Grimms also offered an alternative ending ("Es wird auch
erzahlt..." ), which depicts the grandmother - not as a helpless victim -
but as a capable, clever woman who saves herself and her granddaughter from
the Wolf without any help from men.

"This second ending resembles, at least in spirit, the original Italian
oral version, in which a woman (in this case Little Red) shows mastery, not
helplessness and naiveté, when she encounters "the wild" (see Italo
Calvino's "The False Grandmother" ["la finta nonna"] - see also "Il lupo e
le tre ragazze" or "The Wolf and the Three Girls"). Some scholars
hypothesize that over the centuries the "Little Red Riding Hood" tale was
altered by men to play down and perhaps suppress women's capabilities and
independence."

I guess that stuff is on the special features section of the DVD...

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Tom Kunich]

"h squared" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> By the way Heather, as proof that sometimes things work out well for
>> you - I wanted to be a mechanic. Instead I'm an electronics engineer that
>> makes about twice what a full time dealership mechanic makes.
>>
>> We had a tugboat captain and a couple of his crew as members of the yacht
>> club I belong to. One night he had to dodge some nut in a small boat, the
>> tow overran the boat, capsized it and everyone was lost.
>>
>> Anthropology is a bitch to get into, but when you find your place in life
>> it ain't a bad one at all. Give him all of my best wishes for him and
>> you.
>
> you're nice, and i don't want you to worry! i feel like i have it quite
> good, compared to both the past and the people i see around me every day.
> i do think it's funny that parents can be so adamant that their children
> succeed that they end up pushing them off the track. my brother who is 8
> years younger than me didn't have any pressure to become some kind of
> professional. he dropped out of high school and my dad got him a job for
> awhile at "the factory" quite literally. then he got married and he and
> his wife went off to college on their own motivation. she's becoming a vet
> and he's starting law school. soon he will be living the life of luxury,
> just like lafferty...but if he starts posting obsessive LANCE musings on
> rbr i promise to smack him in the head for y'all.

If he's living the life of luxury it isn't going to be like Brian.......

The truth is that I dropped out of high school as well. Acheived and
engineering position on my own and now I'm pretty surprised at how little
I'm out of work compared to early in my career. Electronics is one of those
businesses that can be a million jobs in a lifetime. I'm working at, I
think, my 40th job since getting out of the Air Force in '67 but for the
last 20 years I've seldomed worked anywhere for less than 2 year stints.

This isn't your father's universe where people went to work at Boeing and
worked there for their entire lives.

[Tom Kunich]

"Robert Chung" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> The reason that it wouldn't go up is because the health care benefit is
>> now taxed and so workers aren't going to be happy paying full price
>> what they get for 30% off now.
>
> So you're saying your solution involves raising taxes on workers?

Absolutely! Medical insurance is presently an untaxed income. That gives
workers an unfair advantage in the insurance game. You HAVE to put everyone
on an equal footing.

[Bob Schwartz]

Tim Lines > wrote:
> h squared wrote:
>> so
>> instead i went to college and got a math degree.

> From UW, by chance? That's where I got mine.

What a coincidence. Who do you deliver food for?

Bob Schwartz

[h squared]

Bob Schwartz wrote:
> Tim Lines > wrote:
>
>>h squared wrote:
>>
>>>so
>>>instead i went to college and got a math degree.
>
>
>>From UW, by chance? That's where I got mine.
>
>
> What a coincidence. Who do you deliver food for?

every subject eventually leads back to food for you, doesn't it?

heather

[Kurgan Gringioni]

h squared wrote:
> Tim Lines wrote:
>
> > From UW, by chance? That's where I got mine.
>
> i went to western. when i was in high school my favorite teacher ever

> told me that he thought western seemed like a good school for me, so
> that's the only place i applied ;)
>
> but i thought you had a degree in economics, or do you have several?
(so
> now it's- running a marathon, the fed, inline skating, only bathing
> occasionally, lattes&boobs, and math degrees- we have in common, if
you
> were keeping track)



Dumbass -

I thought you weren't interested in boobs.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[h squared]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

> Dumbass -
>
> I thought you weren't interested in boobs.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.

just me being silly. you must have been out a few weeks ago when the
subject came up, so here's the reference-
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/39a51f5b48240059?hl=en

heather

[Donald Munro]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> What about "La Boum"?

Robert Chung wrote:
> That's a story for dirty old men.

Now if you said dirty fat old men, you could have told it to rbr.

[Michael Press]

In article
>,
Howard Kveck > wrote:

> In article >,
> h squared > wrote:
>
> > Howard Kveck wrote:
> >
> >
> > > It doesn't seem all that far off what the Brothers Grimm wrote.
> >
> > i agree that fairy tales often are quite horrible. the difference to me
> > being most of them have the protagonist struggle using their talents,
> > etc, to come out on top in the end.
> >
> > i have in a book the version (which happens to be french, hmmm) of
> > little red riding hood where this doesn't happen- the wolf simply eats
> > the grandma and l.r.r.h. but when the grimm brothers "covered" this
> > story, they gave it a happier ending-
>
> Then there's: http://tinyurl.com/96ov2
>
> > "Some school boards in the U.S. have been pressured to blacklist this
> > fairy tale because of its "overtly" sexual content. Yet the Grimms
> > consciously made their tale more innocent and less erotic than earlier
> > versions. They also restored a "happy ending," which true folktales
> > always have. An earlier, more literary French version left Little Red in
> > the Wolf's stomach - the better to scare you with its moral!
> >
> > Contrary to popular ideas, the Grimm Brothers did not simply write down
> > the exact words of an oral storyteller. They conflated their tale from
> > three sources: a French tale, "Le petit chaperon rouge," published by
> > Charles Perrault in 1697; the single oral version they could find,
> > collected from a well-educated French Huguenot woman named Jeanette
> > Hassenpflug, who probably also knew Perrault's tale; and a play, "Leben
> > und Tod des kleinen Rotkäppchens: eine Tragödie," written in 1800 by the
> > German Romantic writer Ludwig Tieck. Tieck invented the hunter who
> > rescues Rotkäppchen and her grandmother from the Wolf. "
> > http://mld.ursinus.edu/Maerchen/rrhintro.html
>
> From that:
>
> "The Grimms also offered an alternative ending ("Es wird auch
> erzahlt..." ), which depicts the grandmother - not as a helpless victim -
> but as a capable, clever woman who saves herself and her granddaughter from
> the Wolf without any help from men.
>
> "This second ending resembles, at least in spirit, the original Italian
> oral version, in which a woman (in this case Little Red) shows mastery, not
> helplessness and naiveté, when she encounters "the wild" (see Italo
> Calvino's "The False Grandmother" ["la finta nonna"] - see also "Il lupo e
> le tre ragazze" or "The Wolf and the Three Girls"). Some scholars
> hypothesize that over the centuries the "Little Red Riding Hood" tale was
> altered by men to play down and perhaps suppress women's capabilities and
> independence."
<...>
Hello. "Freeway" [1996], movie. Stunning take on the LRRH legend.
No excuses. No moralizing. Characters etched on my brain.

--
Michael Press

[Howard Kveck]

In article >,
Michael Press > wrote:

> In article
> >,
> Howard Kveck > wrote:

> > Then there's: http://tinyurl.com/96ov2

> Hello. "Freeway" [1996], movie. Stunning take on the LRRH legend.
> No excuses. No moralizing. Characters etched on my brain.

Yep. See the above link...

"You shoulda let me out of the car when I asked you to, Bob. You see
what happens when ya got bad manners?"

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?