Al wheels typically noisy?

[Michael]

Each of the bikes I owned during the past 50 years had steel wheels. Last year
a former colleague gifted me with a hardly ridden, 70's vintage, 10-speed road
bike. It has Al wheels. After countless hours of work it's now road worthy,
and so I took it for a spin yesterday.

Rolling over tiny rocks (broken up blacktop) makes a sharp popping noise,
accompanied by a pinging-ringing sound which I would guess is from the spokes.
My steel wheeled 10-speed makes no such noise. Are Al wheels typically so
resonant?

[Pat]

: Rolling over tiny rocks (broken up blacktop) makes a sharp popping noise,
: accompanied by a pinging-ringing sound which I would guess is from the
spokes.
: My steel wheeled 10-speed makes no such noise. Are Al wheels typically so
: resonant?

My bike was doing that last summer. I stopped and squeezed the spokes here
and there all around the wheel. Then, I got on and rode off with no pings.
No pings this year, either. So, it has something to do with the stress in
the spokes, I think .

Pat in TX

[[email protected]]

Michael wrote:
> Each of the bikes I owned during the past 50 years had steel wheels.
Last year
> a former colleague gifted me with a hardly ridden, 70's vintage,
10-speed road
> bike. It has Al wheels. After countless hours of work it's now road
worthy,
> and so I took it for a spin yesterday.
>
> Rolling over tiny rocks (broken up blacktop) makes a sharp popping
noise,
> accompanied by a pinging-ringing sound which I would guess is from
the spokes.
> My steel wheeled 10-speed makes no such noise. Are Al wheels
typically so
> resonant?

Sounds to me like you didn't "stress relieve" the spokes after truing
them.

When you've done a lot of truing on a wheel, the spokes will usually
have some torsion ("wind up") in them. When you ride the bike, the
stresses on the spokes allow them to shift, unwind, etc. It's audible.
It goes away very, very soon.

It happens a lot less if you "stress relieve" the spokes before riding.
You can search the archives on rec.bicycles.tech for endless
discussions on this technique.

- Frank Krygowski

[Michael]

Michael wrote:
>
> Each of the bikes I owned during the past 50 years had steel wheels. Last year
> a former colleague gifted me with a hardly ridden, 70's vintage, 10-speed road
> bike. It has Al wheels. After countless hours of work it's now road worthy,
> and so I took it for a spin yesterday.
>
> Rolling over tiny rocks (broken up blacktop) makes a sharp popping noise,
> accompanied by a pinging-ringing sound which I would guess is from the spokes.
> My steel wheeled 10-speed makes no such noise. Are Al wheels typically so
> resonant?


While wheels did require a lot of work, most of that was to remove *gooey* and
dry-rotted rubber that was stuck to the aluminum. Replaced bearings and
repacked hubs (grease was half dried up). I did not, however, do anything at
all to the spokes. Both rims seemed to be in excellent condition otherwise, no
dents or bends, run true. No soft spokes. So .... (if it works, don't ****
with it.)

The pinging-ringing sound I described ..... Seems like the mechanical shock
from each and every tiny "crunch" of stone-shifting-under-tire is transmitted
through tire to rim and thence to spokes. I'm talking *tiny* stones here, like
1-2 times the diameter of pencil lead. Like sand granules on steroids. The
typical gutter of an asphalt street is full of this stuff after winter. The
ping-ring isn't occasional, it's continuous whenever I roll through broken up
asphalt.

I took the steeels wheels out for a spin yesterday evening (warm; 72F out
there!) and rolled through so o' that junk, as a sanity check. No ping-ring.

[Pat]

:
: I took the steeels wheels out for a spin yesterday evening (warm; 72F out
: there!) and rolled through so o' that junk, as a sanity check. No
ping-ring.

You seem to want to blame the ping sounds on the alloy material in contrast
to the steel rims. That isn't it. Don't you think if alloy rims had this
problem inherently, you would be hearing a LOT about it in the bicycle
world? Do you really think if this problem were universal with the alloy
material that riders would continue to use alloy rims? The problem is
elsewhere.

Pat in TX

[Michael]

Pat wrote:
>
> :
> : I took the steeels wheels out for a spin yesterday evening (warm; 72F out
> : there!) and rolled through so o' that junk, as a sanity check. No
> ping-ring.
>
> You seem to want to blame the ping sounds on the alloy material in contrast
> to the steel rims. That isn't it. Don't you think if alloy rims had this
> problem inherently, you would be hearing a LOT about it in the bicycle
> world? Do you really think if this problem were universal with the alloy
> material that riders would continue to use alloy rims? The problem is
> elsewhere.
>
> Pat in TX


I do not know what's going on, and I am conjecturing. I have not heard a lot
about this phenomenon in the bicycle world - indeed, I haven't heard anything
about it - but then I am only one notch above rank amateur regarding things
two-wheel. This is why I asked. This wouldn't be the first time I asked about
something that I thought was illogical and was told "That's the way the world
is". Even if the ping-ring noise were a widely recognized "feechur" of alloy
wheels, I think it wouldn't deter most people from using alloy wheels, if for no
other reason than relatively little ride time is spent in grit.

[Pat]

: I do not know what's going on, and I am conjecturing. I have not heard a
lot
: about this phenomenon in the bicycle world - indeed, I haven't heard
anything
: about it - but then I am only one notch above rank amateur regarding
things
: two-wheel. This is why I asked. This wouldn't be the first time I asked
about
: something that I thought was illogical and was told "That's the way the
world
: is". Even if the ping-ring noise were a widely recognized "feechur" of
alloy
: wheels, I think it wouldn't deter most people from using alloy wheels, if
for no
: other reason than relatively little ride time is spent in grit.

You are talking to somebody who goes nuts with a click occurring somewhere
on the bike. There's no way I would put up with a constant ping sound. I
don't know what you call "grit", but here in Texas we ride frequently on
roads where the highway people put down tar and then cover it with small
rock chips. The idea is that the vehicles will press the rocks into the
surface and create a tough road. It is obnoxious to ride on (and tends to
loosen the fillings in your teeth). So, yes, I do think if thousands of
people had a ping ping sound everytime they rode their bikes, they'd go
ballistic---or at the least stop using the wheels. It hasn't happened.

Pat in TX

[Michael]

Pat wrote:
>
> : I do not know what's going on, and I am conjecturing. I have not heard a
> lot
> : about this phenomenon in the bicycle world - indeed, I haven't heard
> anything
> : about it - but then I am only one notch above rank amateur regarding
> things
> : two-wheel. This is why I asked. This wouldn't be the first time I asked
> about
> : something that I thought was illogical and was told "That's the way the
> world
> : is". Even if the ping-ring noise were a widely recognized "feechur" of
> alloy
> : wheels, I think it wouldn't deter most people from using alloy wheels, if
> for no
> : other reason than relatively little ride time is spent in grit.
>
> You are talking to somebody who goes nuts with a click occurring somewhere
> on the bike. There's no way I would put up with a constant ping sound. I
> don't know what you call "grit", but here in Texas we ride frequently on
> roads where the highway people put down tar and then cover it with small
> rock chips. The idea is that the vehicles will press the rocks into the
> surface and create a tough road. It is obnoxious to ride on (and tends to
> loosen the fillings in your teeth). So, yes, I do think if thousands of
> people had a ping ping sound everytime they rode their bikes, they'd go
> ballistic---or at the least stop using the wheels. It hasn't happened.
>
> Pat in TX


I understand completely; I notice "improper" sounds that my bike makes and am
super sensitive about improper sounds my car makes. I've been known to pull to
the side of interstate highways and poke around under the hood for longer
periods than passengers thought was interesting.

After additional thought on the ping-ring thingie I decided that I should
include the spokes - material; diameter; length; tension - in the equation.
While I definitely lean toward the it-ain't-a-stress-relief-the-spokes-situation
side, more to the point I believe the spokes on those alloy rims somehow aren't
damped as much as the spokes on the steel wheels.

Whatever, I'm not going to pursue getting rid of the ping-ring noise because #1
it doesn't happen often nor for very long and #2 life is too short ... there's
this problem I've got with the saddle tending to slide backward ...

[bbaka]

Michael wrote:
> Pat wrote:
>
>>: I do not know what's going on, and I am conjecturing. I have not heard a
>>lot
>>: about this phenomenon in the bicycle world - indeed, I haven't heard
>>anything
>>: about it - but then I am only one notch above rank amateur regarding
>>things
>>: two-wheel. This is why I asked. This wouldn't be the first time I asked
>>about
>>: something that I thought was illogical and was told "That's the way the
>>world
>>: is". Even if the ping-ring noise were a widely recognized "feechur" of
>>alloy
>>: wheels, I think it wouldn't deter most people from using alloy wheels, if
>>for no
>>: other reason than relatively little ride time is spent in grit.
>>
>>You are talking to somebody who goes nuts with a click occurring somewhere
>>on the bike. There's no way I would put up with a constant ping sound. I
>>don't know what you call "grit", but here in Texas we ride frequently on
>>roads where the highway people put down tar and then cover it with small
>>rock chips. The idea is that the vehicles will press the rocks into the
>>surface and create a tough road. It is obnoxious to ride on (and tends to
>>loosen the fillings in your teeth). So, yes, I do think if thousands of
>>people had a ping ping sound everytime they rode their bikes, they'd go
>>ballistic---or at the least stop using the wheels. It hasn't happened.
>>
>>Pat in TX
>
>
>
> I understand completely; I notice "improper" sounds that my bike makes and am
> super sensitive about improper sounds my car makes. I've been known to pull to
> the side of interstate highways and poke around under the hood for longer
> periods than passengers thought was interesting.
>
> After additional thought on the ping-ring thingie I decided that I should
> include the spokes - material; diameter; length; tension - in the equation.
> While I definitely lean toward the it-ain't-a-stress-relief-the-spokes-situation
> side, more to the point I believe the spokes on those alloy rims somehow aren't
> damped as much as the spokes on the steel wheels.
>
> Whatever, I'm not going to pursue getting rid of the ping-ring noise because #1
> it doesn't happen often nor for very long and #2 life is too short ... there's
> this problem I've got with the saddle tending to slide backward ...

Just spend some time trying to isolate it. Is it in sync with the crank,
or the wheels. Does it come on only under pressure or all the time. I
had one of those random squeaks and it took me forever to figure out it
was the left pedal, and only under pressure at a certain rotation. There
must have been one galled bearing that only took its turn once in every
20 pedal strokes or so. Changed it for now with a kids bike pedal and it
is quit again.
Some noises are really sneaky.
Bill Baka

[Michael]

bbaka wrote:
>
> Michael wrote:
> > Pat wrote:
> >
> >>: I do not know what's going on, and I am conjecturing. I have not heard a
> >>lot
> >>: about this phenomenon in the bicycle world - indeed, I haven't heard
> >>anything
> >>: about it - but then I am only one notch above rank amateur regarding
> >>things
> >>: two-wheel. This is why I asked. This wouldn't be the first time I asked
> >>about
> >>: something that I thought was illogical and was told "That's the way the
> >>world
> >>: is". Even if the ping-ring noise were a widely recognized "feechur" of
> >>alloy
> >>: wheels, I think it wouldn't deter most people from using alloy wheels, if
> >>for no
> >>: other reason than relatively little ride time is spent in grit.
> >>
> >>You are talking to somebody who goes nuts with a click occurring somewhere
> >>on the bike. There's no way I would put up with a constant ping sound. I
> >>don't know what you call "grit", but here in Texas we ride frequently on
> >>roads where the highway people put down tar and then cover it with small
> >>rock chips. The idea is that the vehicles will press the rocks into the
> >>surface and create a tough road. It is obnoxious to ride on (and tends to
> >>loosen the fillings in your teeth). So, yes, I do think if thousands of
> >>people had a ping ping sound everytime they rode their bikes, they'd go
> >>ballistic---or at the least stop using the wheels. It hasn't happened.
> >>
> >>Pat in TX
> >
> >
> >
> > I understand completely; I notice "improper" sounds that my bike makes and am
> > super sensitive about improper sounds my car makes. I've been known to pull to
> > the side of interstate highways and poke around under the hood for longer
> > periods than passengers thought was interesting.
> >
> > After additional thought on the ping-ring thingie I decided that I should
> > include the spokes - material; diameter; length; tension - in the equation.
> > While I definitely lean toward the it-ain't-a-stress-relief-the-spokes-situation
> > side, more to the point I believe the spokes on those alloy rims somehow aren't
> > damped as much as the spokes on the steel wheels.
> >
> > Whatever, I'm not going to pursue getting rid of the ping-ring noise because #1
> > it doesn't happen often nor for very long and #2 life is too short ... there's
> > this problem I've got with the saddle tending to slide backward ...
>
> Just spend some time trying to isolate it. Is it in sync with the crank,
> or the wheels. Does it come on only under pressure or all the time. I
> had one of those random squeaks and it took me forever to figure out it
> was the left pedal, and only under pressure at a certain rotation. There
> must have been one galled bearing that only took its turn once in every
> 20 pedal strokes or so. Changed it for now with a kids bike pedal and it
> is quit again.
> Some noises are really sneaky.
> Bill Baka

I hear ya re: "sneaky". Last winter I was bothered by an intermittent squeek.
Came and went during a given ride but some rides were totally squeekless. One
night I happened to notice pressure against the inside of one foot, at the
ball, each time that foot reached "bottom". My rubber boot was rubbing against
the crank!

But back to the ping-ring sound... There's a smooth (well, *even* surface),
asphalt alley right beside my house, and it still has a generous layer of grit
on it from winter, so I did spend some time experimenting. I waited until there
was no traffic on the nearby street (it would mask the noise of interest) and
rolled slowly ... 2-3 MPH. The resul precipitated the idea of dangling a
microphone at axle level and recording the noise for the listening enjoyment of
RBM readers. I didn't do it but the idea is tempting!

The ping-ring noise definitely results from rolling over grit. From a standing
start, I pushed off and let gravity move me down the almost-level alley. On
clear asphalt there is no ping-ring. When tires hit grit (rocks from broken
asphalt... say, roughly 1-2 x pencil lead diameter), the ping-ring starts, and
it continues uninterrupted until I hit smooth pavement again. Also, a larger
piece of grit that gets pinched by one side of the tire tread and thrown aside
causes a distinctly louder PING and I feel the ejection at the same instant that
I hear the sound. These spokes really resonate!

Could be exacerbated by rim material/geometry. At cruising speed, on a smooth,
quiet street I clearly hear the whisper of working wheel bearings. Bearings are
new; races are pristine (as I said before, bike is 70's vintage Japanese Schwinn
but was barely used); lube is generously applied lithium grease. Bike frame is
ChroMo. I don't think the frame material has anything to do with this bike's
being ... um ... noisier than my steel wheel+frame bike because both the
ping-ring sounds and bearing whisper definitely are loudest near the wheels.