Re: Recommendations? - Training "Other Peoples" Dogs Not To Chase

[Matt O'Toole]

Steve Sr. wrote:

> One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
> (trailer) where two dogs reside. The first is an older yellow lab mix
> and the second is a much younger (and faster!) pit-bull.
>
> Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
> has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
> comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
> it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
> easily.
>
> The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
> get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
> left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
> could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!
>
> Unfortunately that lesson didn't take. Since then we thought that we
> had him trained by squirting water from our water bottles at him but
> lately even this has begun to loose its effectiveness.
>
> Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time

How do you know? Have you tried?

> so we are
> looking for other suggestions to train the dog not to chase bikes. I
> have thought about trying bitter apple in a squirt gun but have been
> unable to find an appropriate sized squirt gun anymore. I also wonder
> about aiming such a small stream of liquid at a moving target while on
> a moving bicycle.
>
> I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
> limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
> blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
> thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
> that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.
>
> A pellet gun would probably inflict enough pain on the dog that he
> wouldn't forget soon, but I don't have one and don't really want to
> buy one just for this purpose if I can avoid it.
>
> Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>
> BTW, this is in a lower income rural area.

How is this relevent? Rich people in metropolitan areas can have mean dogs too.
How is this different?

> I have thought about
> talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
> work more than once.

Actually it works better every time. Subsequent offenses are generally dealt
with more harshly.

Even though there is probably a leash law the
> sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!

The Sheriff likes *the law*, and you can assume will enforce it. Do yourself a
favor and look it up. Take it from there.

Matt O.

[D. Dub]

Or you could do the sensible thing and ride a different
route.....(rolls-eyes)



"Steve Sr." > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
> (trailer) where two dogs reside. The first is an older yellow lab mix
> and the second is a much younger (and faster!) pit-bull.
>
> Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
> has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
> comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
> it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
> easily.
>
> The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
> get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
> left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
> could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!
>
> Unfortunately that lesson didn't take. Since then we thought that we
> had him trained by squirting water from our water bottles at him but
> lately even this has begun to loose its effectiveness.
>
> Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
> looking for other suggestions to train the dog not to chase bikes. I
> have thought about trying bitter apple in a squirt gun but have been
> unable to find an appropriate sized squirt gun anymore. I also wonder
> about aiming such a small stream of liquid at a moving target while on
> a moving bicycle.
>
> I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
> limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
> blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
> thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
> that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.
>
> A pellet gun would probably inflict enough pain on the dog that he
> wouldn't forget soon, but I don't have one and don't really want to
> buy one just for this purpose if I can avoid it.
>
> Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>
> BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about
> talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
> work more than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the
> sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve

[Rich]

D. Dub wrote:

> Or you could do the sensible thing and ride a different
> route.....(rolls-eyes)

No way. You cannot let the dogs take over the road. Next thing they'll
be moving into your neighborhood and you'll be forced to move out.

Get a gun. Preferrably some type of machine gun. Dogs don't stand a
chance against a machine gun. And mount it to your handlebars like a
WWI figher aircraft. That'd be cool...and effective.

Rich

P.S. And join the NRA. TH=hey will help defend your right to bare arms
in the event you need to go to court.

[Neil Brooks]

Rich > wrote:

>D. Dub wrote:
>
>> Or you could do the sensible thing and ride a different
>> route.....(rolls-eyes)
>
>No way. You cannot let the dogs take over the road. Next thing they'll
>be moving into your neighborhood and you'll be forced to move out.

Interesting point.

>Get a gun. Preferrably some type of machine gun. Dogs don't stand a
>chance against a machine gun. And mount it to your handlebars like a
>WWI figher aircraft. That'd be cool...and effective.

You talking about a .50 cal? Something like this:

http://www.barrettrifles.com/images/front_rifles.jpg ??

That *would* be cool. I'm thinking a recumbent would be better
equipped to handle the recoil, though, no? A sidecar, incidentally,
could catch the shell casings. Environmentally correct.

>P.S. And join the NRA. TH=hey will help defend your right to bare arms
>in the event you need to go to court.

Bare arms on a bike only gets you sunburned . . . if you don't use
sunblock.

[Joe Canuck]

Steve Sr. wrote:

> Hello,
>
> One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
> (trailer) where two dogs reside. The first is an older yellow lab mix
> and the second is a much younger (and faster!) pit-bull.
>
> Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
> has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
> comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
> it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
> easily.
>
> The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
> get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
> left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
> could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!
>
> Unfortunately that lesson didn't take. Since then we thought that we
> had him trained by squirting water from our water bottles at him but
> lately even this has begun to loose its effectiveness.
>
> Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
> looking for other suggestions to train the dog not to chase bikes. I
> have thought about trying bitter apple in a squirt gun but have been
> unable to find an appropriate sized squirt gun anymore. I also wonder
> about aiming such a small stream of liquid at a moving target while on
> a moving bicycle.
>
> I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
> limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
> blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
> thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
> that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.
>
> A pellet gun would probably inflict enough pain on the dog that he
> wouldn't forget soon, but I don't have one and don't really want to
> buy one just for this purpose if I can avoid it.
>
> Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>
> BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about
> talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
> work more than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the
> sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve

The easiest solution is to pick another route and avoid the aggravation.

[bbaka]

Steve Sr. wrote:
> Hello,
>
> One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
> (trailer) where two dogs reside. The first is an older yellow lab mix
> and the second is a much younger (and faster!) pit-bull.
>
> Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
> has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
> comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
> it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
> easily.
>
> The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
> get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
> left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
> could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!

I have found it useful to turn around and chase the dog back into his
own yard, usually with their tail between their legs, but I have NOT
tried it on an aggressive Pit Bull.
>
> Unfortunately that lesson didn't take. Since then we thought that we
> had him trained by squirting water from our water bottles at him but
> lately even this has begun to loose its effectiveness.
>
> Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
> looking for other suggestions to train the dog not to chase bikes. I
> have thought about trying bitter apple in a squirt gun but have been
> unable to find an appropriate sized squirt gun anymore. I also wonder
> about aiming such a small stream of liquid at a moving target while on
> a moving bicycle.

If their are two of you I would suggest carrying a knife and confronting
the dog directly and not as a moving target. If you do get bit and have
to put the dog down the hard way, there are at least two of you and you
can sue the owner and make an example. I carry a knife, of sorts, in the
fact that I have my quick release seat post tapered like a giant
hypodermic needle, but if it got down to the dog or me, the seat would
get pulled and used as a weapon.
>
> I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
> limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
> blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
> thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
> that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.
>
> A pellet gun would probably inflict enough pain on the dog that he
> wouldn't forget soon, but I don't have one and don't really want to
> buy one just for this purpose if I can avoid it.

Either of the above methods would just ingrain in the dog that you are
an enemy and to be treated as such. The dog must either be made a
friend, if that is possible with an aggressive Pit Bull, or terrified to
see you coming.
>
> Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>
> BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about
> talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
> work more than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the
> sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!

Just take something to defend yourselves with and don't go by there
alone. Homicide of a dog in self defense is not a crime in any state
that I know of.
Good luck with all that.
Bill Baka
My opinions are definitely not in sync with the group on these matters.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
> has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
> comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
> it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
> easily.

I can't recommend this with all dogs, and it takes more than a certain
amount of... stupidity? to do this, but... what I've found to work is to
*not* ride away from the dog. When he comes out to chase, ride towards him,
not away, and dismount a safe distance from the dog. Place the bike between
yourself and the dog (you may be stupid to do this, but you still want to
live through the experience!) and stare it down.

The first time I did this was out on West Alpine, a very remote road near
the coast on the San Francisco Peninsula. There was this nasty dog (a large
unfriendly black lab) that would come out and chase down just about every
cyclist that went by. I finally got fed up with it and stared him down. It
took a few minutes (which can seem like a *very* long time) but eventually
the dog looked... well, depressed is the best way to put it. Tail went down,
he turned around and just kind of walked away. Never got chased by that dog
again.

But the thing you have to keep in mind is that dogs seem to have a way of
knowing who's fearful of them. Bad news if that's the case. There are
definitely dogs you SHOULD fear, but you always want to avoid showing it.
Otherwise you need to be someplace else.

> The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
> get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
> left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
> could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!

Sounds like a more dangerous dog. If the dog is willing to circle around
you, it's difficult to keep your bike between you and him. If you think the
dog would do that if you've stopped and tried to create a defensible
position with your bike, I'd look into a different route. I haven't
encountered dogs that circle around and attack from behind.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[frkrygow@yahoo.com]

Steve Sr. wrote:
>
> Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>

>From (regrettably) having lived in rural Georgia, I've had tons of
practice dealing with agressive dogs.

First, take this seriously. Realize that the danger is much worse than
just getting bitten. I've had friends go over the bars when a dog ran
under their front wheel. You can also be forced into a head-on
collision with a car.

The civilized thing to do is call the sheriff. It may work. It may
not. In Georgia, it didn't work. (The sheriff seriously suggested to
a friend of mine that he just shoot the dog that took him down.)

You could avoid that road. It's the pacifist approach, but I think
it's ultimately worthless. If I'd done that in Georgia, I wouldn't
have been able to ride around the block.

In my extensive experience, the only way to solve this is to be more
aggressive than the dog. Inflict pain. Make chasing bikes a negative
feedback experience. IOW, train the dog, as a kind service to the
owner.

Squirt guns don't work. They invariably leak, and their range is
pitiful.

Swinging pumps, etc, is dangerous for you. The dog gets too close,
it's too hard to hit the dog, and the pump can foul a wheel and throw
you down. Even if you're not injured by the fall, you may then be
injured by the dog.

"Halt" pepper spray is OK under certain conditions. It's all I
require, now that I'm in more enlightened territory. You can try that
first. But do be careful about wind direction, and do practice on
dandelions, fire plugs, etc. before you really need it. You must get
them directly in the nose and eyes for it to work - and rarely, a dog
seems nearly immune.

In Georgia, where getting chased once per mile was not unusual, I tried
all those, but finally took to carrying rocks, about 1.5" to 2" in
diameter. With minimal practice, I learned to throw while riding and
hit dogs that were as much as 20 feet away. Dogs are instinctively
wary of people throwing things. And the rocks allow deterrence from a
safe distance, which Halt pepper spray does not. I carried the Halt as
a backup, though.

And lest anyone whine about the animal cruelty, I was protecting my
wife and child who were riding with me. After my son was seriously
bitten, I stopped putting up with dog & owner stupidity.

Also, rather than avoid an aggressive dog, I would ride past it
frequently. I would turn around and ride at the dog. I would unwisely
chase dogs into their own yard. (Unwise because the laws probably
change when I enter their territory.) But I would be meaner than the
dog, and eventually establish that the yard was their territory; the
road was _my_ territory.

This worked. Some dogs still chased, but only at a distance.

Some owners yelled. (In rural Georgia, dogs rights were more important
than cyclist rights.) If that happens to you, I suggest yelling
"Lawsuit! Lawsuit!" and calling the sheriff again.

- Frank Krygowski

[Ron Hardin]

Carry milk-bones (or house brand equivalent)

It's harder to deal with two dogs because they excite each other on,
but dismount, offer milkbones to dog (he won't come all the way to you)
and toss one near him, closer to you each time. In a few opportunities
he'll take it from your hand. Some day touch him accidentally.

He discovers he's touched and not hurt, at which point he pretty much
gives up objections to you.

The result, on a regular route, is that the dog is sitting at the
end of the driveway waiting for you to roll up and stop at the
appointed time, offer milkbone and ride away.

You have a slightly harder problem because you've established yourself
as untrustworthy but it still can be done.

Pit bulls are not people-aggressive, by the way, in spite of what
you read in the papers starting around 1985. They like fighting dogs,
which is particularly terrier trait, no matter how big the terrier.
Dogs are always being sized up as to whether they'd be a worthy
opponent.

I met a large Pit Bull a couple of weeks ago, that had come running
out, so I stopped and he lept up to be greeted properly. A very large
Black man came running out to say that the dog was friendly, which,
curiously, is what I had assumed. The Pit Bull then jumped on him
to be greeted properly. That's typical of pit bulls. Nobody teaches
dogs manners these days, even though it's easy.

Anyway, a bicyclist is a deer, and thought to be chase-worthy by almost
every untutored dog. If you get off the bike, you're not a deer
any longer and you get people-treatment.

The attracting sound, by the way, is tire noise. If you listen very
carefully you can hear it yourself, but it's much louder to a dog.

--
Ron Hardin


On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

[Maggie]

Rich wrote:
> P.S. And join the NRA. TH=hey will help defend your right to bare
arms
> in the event you need to go to court.

Just what we need, another member of the NRA.

Join the MILLION MOM MARCH INSTEAD....and http://www2.stopthenra.com/

All good things
Maggie

Member of the Million Mom March

http://www.millionmommarch.org/

[Dan]

Steve Sr. wrote:
> Hello,
>
> One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
> (trailer) where two dogs reside. The first is an older yellow lab mix
> and the second is a much younger (and faster!) pit-bull.
>
> Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
> has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
> comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
> it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
> easily.
>
> The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
> get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
> left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
> could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!
>
> Unfortunately that lesson didn't take. Since then we thought that we
> had him trained by squirting water from our water bottles at him but
> lately even this has begun to loose its effectiveness.
>
> Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
> looking for other suggestions to train the dog not to chase bikes. I
> have thought about trying bitter apple in a squirt gun but have been
> unable to find an appropriate sized squirt gun anymore. I also wonder
> about aiming such a small stream of liquid at a moving target while on
> a moving bicycle.
>
> I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
> limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
> blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
> thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
> that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.
>
> A pellet gun would probably inflict enough pain on the dog that he
> wouldn't forget soon, but I don't have one and don't really want to
> buy one just for this purpose if I can avoid it.
>
> Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>
> BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about
> talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
> work more than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the
> sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve

Steve-I sympathize with your experience, unlike a few who seem to feel
it's somehow "your fault". As far as "attacking" the dog, strong pepper
spray would probably be best (do they still make "Mace"? A doggy TASER,
perhaps...?) . Seriously, like anything else, this stuff varies in
quality from example to example, my understanding is the most potent
varieties are to be found in gun or "security/police supply" stores. If
you use the spray, don't be surprised if the moron who owns the cur
doesn't chase you down and confront you with anything ranging from
indignant screams to trying to run you over with his clapped out pickup
truck. Save a few blasts for him as well. The fact that the slob
allows his dogs to go unrestrained (when he is no doubt aware they chase
passers-by, especially given that the lab has apparently been around
awhile) is prima facia evidence that he is an asshole; you can try
talking to him, but 1) it will probably either have only a momentary
impact or will be a total waste of time and 2) talking to him will
require you to GO INTO HIS YARD where (duhhhh... ) you will be even MORE
likely to be attacked. I would however make an attempt at talking to
whatever passes for local law enforcement, but my guess is rather than
being unsympathetic, they will likely not be too responsive due to
minimal staffing and having bigger fish in the pan. I will assume you
are smart enough to have already considered an alternate route, and for
whatever reason you and our friend would prefer to be able to use this
public street, which you have every right to traverse safely,
irresponsible local nitwits not withstanding.

BTW several people have suggested "staring the animal down". This may
intimidate some timid dogs, but experts ALL say it is highly risky, as
in many more aggressive dogs it will trigger an all out attack. We're
not talking about a grouchy schnauzer here; a pit bull can inflict
severe, life-altering if not fatal injuries.

Good luck, let us know what happens

Dan

[D. Dub]

"Ron Hardin" > wrote in message
...
>
> Pit bulls are not people-aggressive, by the way, in spite of what
> you read in the papers starting around 1985. They like fighting dogs,
> which is particularly terrier trait, no matter how big the terrier.
> Dogs are always being sized up as to whether they'd be a worthy
> opponent.
>
> I met a large Pit Bull a couple of weeks ago, that had come running
> out, so I stopped and he lept up to be greeted properly. A very large


ALL dogs have the propensity to be people aggressive....

I hate the BS argument that pitbulls were only bred to be dog aggressive and
not people aggressive.....they are dogs......they're not that
smart.......dogs aren't always smart enough to distinguish strange people
from other dogs.....they often mix up those boundaries between people and
dogs....which is why we often have to train them that we are the dominant
and lead dogs in their pack.

Besides, the big problem with pit-type/fighting dogs is the damage they can
do when they are aggressive!!!

[bryanska]

I'd also say talk to the sheriff. Let them visit the guy at least
twice. This way, you legally record your attempts to peacefully resolve
the situation. Follow-up with the law and see how the visits went.

Go through the law, transparently and peacefully. Make every attempt.
Videotape the dogs if possible.

This is where I'll be unpopular.

If the dogs still chase you after all this, be ready to take 'em out.
Is your state a concealed carry state? You'll need a thick round with
lots of stopping power. Muzzle velocity isn't important. If .38 or
..357, a full wadcutter should work. For .45, go with a Hydra-Shok or
other non-penetrating safety round. If you're using a smaller caliber,
consider Glaser Safety Slugs. Dismount, put the bike between you and
the dog if possible, and carefully shoot.

If a gun is out, try Liquid Bullet. It's a pepper spray product that
uses a patented thick stream of liquid capsaicin. It won't spray back
in your face. A slobbering pitbull has lots of exposes mucous
membranes, and this product should irritate them well, without
overspray to endanger others. The lab should give up easily.

Don't try to engage the pit with your hands. Even a baton like the ASP
is too close for comfort. Ditto a knife. Their jaws will lock until
their heart stops beating. If they've managed to bite you before you
can sink the blade, it's become a life-or-death matter for them. While
the lab will go off and lick its wounds, a pit will stay chomped until
its lights go out - and by that time, you could be fingerless or
missing a big, dead chunk of flesh.

[GaryG]

"bbaka" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Sr. wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
> > (trailer) where two dogs reside. The first is an older yellow lab mix
> > and the second is a much younger (and faster!) pit-bull.
> >
> > Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
> > has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
> > comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
> > it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
> > easily.
> >
> > The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
> > get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
> > left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
> > could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!
>
> I have found it useful to turn around and chase the dog back into his
> own yard, usually with their tail between their legs, but I have NOT
> tried it on an aggressive Pit Bull.

Dumb advice.

> >
> > Unfortunately that lesson didn't take. Since then we thought that we
> > had him trained by squirting water from our water bottles at him but
> > lately even this has begun to loose its effectiveness.
> >
> > Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
> > looking for other suggestions to train the dog not to chase bikes. I
> > have thought about trying bitter apple in a squirt gun but have been
> > unable to find an appropriate sized squirt gun anymore. I also wonder
> > about aiming such a small stream of liquid at a moving target while on
> > a moving bicycle.
>
> If their are two of you I would suggest carrying a knife and confronting
> the dog directly and not as a moving target. If you do get bit and have
> to put the dog down the hard way, there are at least two of you and you
> can sue the owner and make an example. I carry a knife, of sorts, in the
> fact that I have my quick release seat post tapered like a giant
> hypodermic needle, but if it got down to the dog or me, the seat would
> get pulled and used as a weapon.

Dear Bull**** Bill - you are full of **** and bad advice, as usual.

Try explaining to the law how it was you came to chase a dog back into it's
yard, and then ended up stabbing it to death with the knife you were
carrying.


> >
> > I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
> > limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
> > blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
> > thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
> > that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.
> >
> > A pellet gun would probably inflict enough pain on the dog that he
> > wouldn't forget soon, but I don't have one and don't really want to
> > buy one just for this purpose if I can avoid it.
>
> Either of the above methods would just ingrain in the dog that you are
> an enemy and to be treated as such. The dog must either be made a
> friend, if that is possible with an aggressive Pit Bull, or terrified to
> see you coming.
> >
> > Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
> >
> > BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about
> > talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
> > work more than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the
> > sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!
>
> Just take something to defend yourselves with and don't go by there
> alone. Homicide of a dog in self defense is not a crime in any state
> that I know of.
> Good luck with all that.
> Bill Baka
> My opinions are definitely not in sync with the group on these matters.

Your opinions are definitely not in "sync" with reality, either.

> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Steve

[GaryG]

"Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote in message
m...
> > Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
> > has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
> > comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
> > it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
> > easily.
>
> I can't recommend this with all dogs, and it takes more than a certain
> amount of... stupidity? to do this, but... what I've found to work is to
> *not* ride away from the dog. When he comes out to chase, ride towards
him,
> not away, and dismount a safe distance from the dog. Place the bike
between
> yourself and the dog (you may be stupid to do this, but you still want to
> live through the experience!) and stare it down.

I've used that technique successfully myself with a very agressive German
Shepard. He didn't back down, but the bike provided a very effective
shield.

However, this technique works only when there's just one dog. With more
than one dog, they'll be able to circle around and flank you before you can
respond.

GG

>
> The first time I did this was out on West Alpine, a very remote road near
> the coast on the San Francisco Peninsula. There was this nasty dog (a
large
> unfriendly black lab) that would come out and chase down just about every
> cyclist that went by. I finally got fed up with it and stared him down. It
> took a few minutes (which can seem like a *very* long time) but eventually
> the dog looked... well, depressed is the best way to put it. Tail went
down,
> he turned around and just kind of walked away. Never got chased by that
dog
> again.
>
> But the thing you have to keep in mind is that dogs seem to have a way of
> knowing who's fearful of them. Bad news if that's the case. There are
> definitely dogs you SHOULD fear, but you always want to avoid showing it.
> Otherwise you need to be someplace else.
>
> > The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
> > get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
> > left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
> > could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!
>
> Sounds like a more dangerous dog. If the dog is willing to circle around
> you, it's difficult to keep your bike between you and him. If you think
the
> dog would do that if you've stopped and tried to create a defensible
> position with your bike, I'd look into a different route. I haven't
> encountered dogs that circle around and attack from behind.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>

[GaryG]

"Steve Sr." > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
> (trailer) where two dogs reside. The first is an older yellow lab mix
> and the second is a much younger (and faster!) pit-bull.
>
> Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
> has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
> comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
> it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
> easily.
>
> The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
> get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
> left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
> could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!
>
> Unfortunately that lesson didn't take. Since then we thought that we
> had him trained by squirting water from our water bottles at him but
> lately even this has begun to loose its effectiveness.
>
> Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
> looking for other suggestions to train the dog not to chase bikes. I
> have thought about trying bitter apple in a squirt gun but have been
> unable to find an appropriate sized squirt gun anymore. I also wonder
> about aiming such a small stream of liquid at a moving target while on
> a moving bicycle.
>
> I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
> limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
> blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
> thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
> that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.

I've used cop-strength pepper spray on a number of occasions (not that
watered down "Halt" product). In all cases, it instantly stopped the dog,
without seeming to cause them undue pain. It's fairly easy to use while
you're still on the bike (just be careful with wind direction). Fits neatly
in the right jersey pocket, and also provides some degree of protection in
case of a confrontation with a cager.

You definitely need to contact the local sheriff or animal control office
too. The dogs need to have a "record" in case they ever take down a
cyclist, or bite someone.

For some really good info on dealing with dogs, the best site I've found is
here:
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/journal/?o=as&doc_id=194&v=2

For cop-strength pepper spray, this site seems pretty good (though I've not
ordered from them yet):
http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/sprays.htm

FWIW, I love dogs and have owned dogs all my life. But, if one is running
after me on the bike and won't back down to my verbal commands, it gets the
spray.

--
~_-*
....G/ \G
http://www.CycliStats.com
CycliStats - Software for Cyclists

>
> A pellet gun would probably inflict enough pain on the dog that he
> wouldn't forget soon, but I don't have one and don't really want to
> buy one just for this purpose if I can avoid it.
>
> Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>
> BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about
> talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
> work more than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the
> sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve

[bryanska]

Maybe the answer is to build a fairing around a recumbent bike, with
spring-loaded milkbone throwers?

[Joshua Putnam]

In article >, says...

> The Sheriff likes *the law*, and you can assume will enforce it. Do yourself a
> favor and look it up. Take it from there.

Guess it depends where you are and who the Sheriff is. In the early
80s we called the county about a vicious dog that repeatedly
threatened people on our property. We were inconveniently far from
animal control, I guess -- they asked us whether we or any neighbors
had a gun and would simply shoot the dog next time.

--
is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Updated Bicycle Touring Books List:
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html>

[Joshua Putnam]

I had this situation as a bicycle commuter, two large hunting dogs
running loose on the only route to my office.

I'd suggest the type of pepper spray that throws a wide, forceful
cone of spray, rather than a thin stream like Halt. Often sold for
personal defense or for bear repellant. The broad cone makes it easy
to spray a running dog while riding.

--
is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Updated Bicycle Touring Books List:
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html>

[Bill Sornson]

Maggie wrote:
> Rich wrote:

>> P.S. And join the NRA. TH=hey will help defend your right to bare
>> arms in the event you need to go to court.

> Just what we need, another member of the NRA.

> Maggie
>
> Member of the Million Mom March

Yeah, but do you ladies have BARE ARMS?

Bill "pssst, Maggie. He was joking" S.

[GaryG]

"Joshua Putnam" > wrote in message
...
> I had this situation as a bicycle commuter, two large hunting dogs
> running loose on the only route to my office.
>
> I'd suggest the type of pepper spray that throws a wide, forceful
> cone of spray, rather than a thin stream like Halt. Often sold for
> personal defense or for bear repellant. The broad cone makes it easy
> to spray a running dog while riding.

Assuming you're recommending a "fog" dispersal method as opposed to a
"stream" spray, I'm going to have to disagree.

The "stream" pattern offers greater range (12-15 feet vs. 8-10 feet for the
"fog" pattern). It also has less problems with "blowback" due to wind,
because the spray droplets are considerably larger.

I've sprayed dogs while riding the bike about 6 times in the last 10 years,
all with a "stream" spray. It's not hard at all to aim the spray where it
does the most good (nose and eyes), and I only once had a tiny bit of
blowback on a windy day.

GG

>
> --
> is Joshua Putnam
> <http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
> Updated Bicycle Touring Books List:
> <http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html>

[SlowRider]

I use the same approach with other peoples' dogs that I use with my own
dogs: if they don't do something I like, I give them a sharp, loud,
authoritative rebuke ("AAY!" works beautifully, especially if you can
startle them with it).

But that's for your garden-variety pet dog off his leash, not a
snarling attack dog. In the latter case I would call animal control.
Ask them to remind the owners that if a dog bites a human, the dog gets
put to sleep (that's the law in most places AFAIK). Animal control may
also be able to give you better tips than you'll get elsewhere.

The next step after that would be the police. I believe a phrase they
recognize is "hazard to navigation": if the dogs chase bicycles, they
probably chase cars, too.

Good luck!


-JR

[bbaka]

GaryG wrote:
> "bbaka" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Steve Sr. wrote:
>>
>>>Hello,
>>>
>>>One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
>>>(trailer) where two dogs reside. The first is an older yellow lab mix
>>>and the second is a much younger (and faster!) pit-bull.
>>>
>>>Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
>>>has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
>>>comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
>>>it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
>>>easily.
>>>
>>>The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
>>>get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
>>>left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
>>>could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!
>>
>>I have found it useful to turn around and chase the dog back into his
>>own yard, usually with their tail between their legs, but I have NOT
>>tried it on an aggressive Pit Bull.
>
>
> Dumb advice.

It works, but as I mentioned I have no Pit Bulls to try it on. Some
become petting dogs after I ride by enough.
>
>
>>>Unfortunately that lesson didn't take. Since then we thought that we
>>>had him trained by squirting water from our water bottles at him but
>>>lately even this has begun to loose its effectiveness.
>>>
>>>Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
>>>looking for other suggestions to train the dog not to chase bikes. I
>>>have thought about trying bitter apple in a squirt gun but have been
>>>unable to find an appropriate sized squirt gun anymore. I also wonder
>>>about aiming such a small stream of liquid at a moving target while on
>>>a moving bicycle.
>>
>>If their are two of you I would suggest carrying a knife and confronting
>>the dog directly and not as a moving target. If you do get bit and have
>>to put the dog down the hard way, there are at least two of you and you
>>can sue the owner and make an example. I carry a knife, of sorts, in the
>>fact that I have my quick release seat post tapered like a giant
>>hypodermic needle, but if it got down to the dog or me, the seat would
>>get pulled and used as a weapon.
>
>
> Dear Bull**** Bill - you are full of **** and bad advice, as usual.
>
> Try explaining to the law how it was you came to chase a dog back into it's
> yard, and then ended up stabbing it to death with the knife you were
> carrying.

Dumb reply. I am talking about a dog that is determined to draw blood on
the spot. If the dog is determined to get into it with 2 people far from
his own property, then killing the dog may just save another unwary
person from physical harm. If the dog has sense enough to run back home
then I will continue my ride.
>
>
>
>>>I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
>>>limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
>>>blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
>>>thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
>>>that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.
>>>
>>>A pellet gun would probably inflict enough pain on the dog that he
>>>wouldn't forget soon, but I don't have one and don't really want to
>>>buy one just for this purpose if I can avoid it.
>>
>>Either of the above methods would just ingrain in the dog that you are
>>an enemy and to be treated as such. The dog must either be made a
>>friend, if that is possible with an aggressive Pit Bull, or terrified to
>>see you coming.
>>
>>>Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>>>
>>>BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about
>>>talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
>>>work more than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the
>>>sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!
>>
>>Just take something to defend yourselves with and don't go by there
>>alone. Homicide of a dog in self defense is not a crime in any state
>>that I know of.
>>Good luck with all that.
>>Bill Baka
>>My opinions are definitely not in sync with the group on these matters.
>
>
> Your opinions are definitely not in "sync" with reality, either.

You have obviously not been bitten and de-biked by a dog, I have. I
managed to swing the bike at the dog and make contact and the dog ran
back home. Speak up after YOU get bitten.
Bill Baka
>
>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Steve
>
>
>

[bbaka]

wrote:
> Steve Sr. wrote:
>
>>Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>>
>
>
>>From (regrettably) having lived in rural Georgia, I've had tons of
> practice dealing with agressive dogs.
>
> First, take this seriously. Realize that the danger is much worse than
> just getting bitten. I've had friends go over the bars when a dog ran
> under their front wheel. You can also be forced into a head-on
> collision with a car.
>
> The civilized thing to do is call the sheriff. It may work. It may
> not. In Georgia, it didn't work. (The sheriff seriously suggested to
> a friend of mine that he just shoot the dog that took him down.)

That would work for me. I've seen sheriffs like that and anything that
they can't see for themselves seems to be up to you to handle.
>
> You could avoid that road. It's the pacifist approach, but I think
> it's ultimately worthless. If I'd done that in Georgia, I wouldn't
> have been able to ride around the block.
>
> In my extensive experience, the only way to solve this is to be more
> aggressive than the dog. Inflict pain. Make chasing bikes a negative
> feedback experience. IOW, train the dog, as a kind service to the
> owner.
>
> Squirt guns don't work. They invariably leak, and their range is
> pitiful.
>
> Swinging pumps, etc, is dangerous for you. The dog gets too close,
> it's too hard to hit the dog, and the pump can foul a wheel and throw
> you down. Even if you're not injured by the fall, you may then be
> injured by the dog.
>
> "Halt" pepper spray is OK under certain conditions. It's all I
> require, now that I'm in more enlightened territory. You can try that
> first. But do be careful about wind direction, and do practice on
> dandelions, fire plugs, etc. before you really need it. You must get
> them directly in the nose and eyes for it to work - and rarely, a dog
> seems nearly immune.
>
> In Georgia, where getting chased once per mile was not unusual, I tried
> all those, but finally took to carrying rocks, about 1.5" to 2" in
> diameter. With minimal practice, I learned to throw while riding and
> hit dogs that were as much as 20 feet away. Dogs are instinctively
> wary of people throwing things. And the rocks allow deterrence from a
> safe distance, which Halt pepper spray does not. I carried the Halt as
> a backup, though.
>
> And lest anyone whine about the animal cruelty, I was protecting my
> wife and child who were riding with me. After my son was seriously
> bitten, I stopped putting up with dog & owner stupidity.

Which is why I carry a weapon of sorts, both a minimal camping pocket
knife and my quick release pointed seat post. Some dogs need to be put down.
>
> Also, rather than avoid an aggressive dog, I would ride past it
> frequently. I would turn around and ride at the dog. I would unwisely
> chase dogs into their own yard. (Unwise because the laws probably
> change when I enter their territory.) But I would be meaner than the
> dog, and eventually establish that the yard was their territory; the
> road was _my_ territory.
>
> This worked. Some dogs still chased, but only at a distance.
>
> Some owners yelled. (In rural Georgia, dogs rights were more important
> than cyclist rights.)

Now I know where I am never going to move.

If that happens to you, I suggest yelling
> "Lawsuit! Lawsuit!" and calling the sheriff again.

The guy might be the sheriffs' drinking buddy.
Bill Baka
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

[bbaka]

bryanska wrote:
> I'd also say talk to the sheriff. Let them visit the guy at least
> twice. This way, you legally record your attempts to peacefully resolve
> the situation. Follow-up with the law and see how the visits went.
>
> Go through the law, transparently and peacefully. Make every attempt.
> Videotape the dogs if possible.
>
> This is where I'll be unpopular.
>
> If the dogs still chase you after all this, be ready to take 'em out.
> Is your state a concealed carry state? You'll need a thick round with
> lots of stopping power. Muzzle velocity isn't important. If .38 or
> ..357, a full wadcutter should work. For .45, go with a Hydra-Shok or
> other non-penetrating safety round. If you're using a smaller caliber,
> consider Glaser Safety Slugs. Dismount, put the bike between you and
> the dog if possible, and carefully shoot.

This is actually where you are talking reality and not fiction. Some
dogs will fix it into their mind that you are fair game to bite and will
need to be taken out. About once a year I hear on the news where some
pedestrian or child is mauled or even killed by an unrestrained dog.
This being California, a gun is out, but I may be able to carry a fair
sized knife on my belt, but as you say, that is too close.
>
> If a gun is out, try Liquid Bullet. It's a pepper spray product that
> uses a patented thick stream of liquid capsaicin. It won't spray back
> in your face. A slobbering pitbull has lots of exposes mucous
> membranes, and this product should irritate them well, without
> overspray to endanger others. The lab should give up easily.
>
> Don't try to engage the pit with your hands. Even a baton like the ASP
> is too close for comfort. Ditto a knife. Their jaws will lock until
> their heart stops beating. If they've managed to bite you before you
> can sink the blade, it's become a life-or-death matter for them. While
> the lab will go off and lick its wounds, a pit will stay chomped until
> its lights go out - and by that time, you could be fingerless or
> missing a big, dead chunk of flesh.
>
I am thinking how weird it would look to carry a 36" baseball bat and if
it would be possible to hit a Pit Bull type dog in the head with a 'home
run' powered swing. All things being equal, I value myself and the
people who may be riding with me a hell of a lot more than the dog
owners right to have a vicious dog running loose.
Bill Baka

[bbaka]

SlowRider wrote:
> I use the same approach with other peoples' dogs that I use with my own
> dogs: if they don't do something I like, I give them a sharp, loud,
> authoritative rebuke ("AAY!" works beautifully, especially if you can
> startle them with it).
>
> But that's for your garden-variety pet dog off his leash, not a
> snarling attack dog. In the latter case I would call animal control.

After you get bit?

> Ask them to remind the owners that if a dog bites a human, the dog gets
> put to sleep (that's the law in most places AFAIK). Animal control may
> also be able to give you better tips than you'll get elsewhere.
>
> The next step after that would be the police. I believe a phrase they
> recognize is "hazard to navigation": if the dogs chase bicycles, they
> probably chase cars, too.

We have a leash law but the police never even attempt to enforce it.
They just drive by the dog and do nothing, and I never see an animal
control truck come out unless someones child gets bitten or something
along those lines.
Bill Baka
>
> Good luck!
>
>
> -JR
>

[GaryG]

"bbaka" > wrote in message
...
> GaryG wrote:
> > "bbaka" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Steve Sr. wrote:
> >>
> >>>Hello,
> >>>
> >>>One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
> >>>(trailer) where two dogs reside. The first is an older yellow lab mix
> >>>and the second is a much younger (and faster!) pit-bull.
> >>>
> >>>Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
> >>>has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
> >>>comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
> >>>it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
> >>>easily.
> >>>
> >>>The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
> >>>get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
> >>>left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
> >>>could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!
> >>
> >>I have found it useful to turn around and chase the dog back into his
> >>own yard, usually with their tail between their legs, but I have NOT
> >>tried it on an aggressive Pit Bull.
> >
> >
> > Dumb advice.
>
> It works, but as I mentioned I have no Pit Bulls to try it on. Some
> become petting dogs after I ride by enough.
> >
> >
> >>>Unfortunately that lesson didn't take. Since then we thought that we
> >>>had him trained by squirting water from our water bottles at him but
> >>>lately even this has begun to loose its effectiveness.
> >>>
> >>>Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
> >>>looking for other suggestions to train the dog not to chase bikes. I
> >>>have thought about trying bitter apple in a squirt gun but have been
> >>>unable to find an appropriate sized squirt gun anymore. I also wonder
> >>>about aiming such a small stream of liquid at a moving target while on
> >>>a moving bicycle.
> >>
> >>If their are two of you I would suggest carrying a knife and confronting
> >>the dog directly and not as a moving target. If you do get bit and have
> >>to put the dog down the hard way, there are at least two of you and you
> >>can sue the owner and make an example. I carry a knife, of sorts, in the
> >>fact that I have my quick release seat post tapered like a giant
> >>hypodermic needle, but if it got down to the dog or me, the seat would
> >>get pulled and used as a weapon.
> >
> >
> > Dear Bull**** Bill - you are full of **** and bad advice, as usual.
> >
> > Try explaining to the law how it was you came to chase a dog back into
it's
> > yard, and then ended up stabbing it to death with the knife you were
> > carrying.
>
> Dumb reply. I am talking about a dog that is determined to draw blood on
> the spot. If the dog is determined to get into it with 2 people far from
> his own property, then killing the dog may just save another unwary
> person from physical harm. If the dog has sense enough to run back home
> then I will continue my ride.
> >
> >
> >
> >>>I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
> >>>limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
> >>>blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
> >>>thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
> >>>that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.
> >>>
> >>>A pellet gun would probably inflict enough pain on the dog that he
> >>>wouldn't forget soon, but I don't have one and don't really want to
> >>>buy one just for this purpose if I can avoid it.
> >>
> >>Either of the above methods would just ingrain in the dog that you are
> >>an enemy and to be treated as such. The dog must either be made a
> >>friend, if that is possible with an aggressive Pit Bull, or terrified to
> >>see you coming.
> >>
> >>>Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
> >>>
> >>>BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about
> >>>talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
> >>>work more than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the
> >>>sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!
> >>
> >>Just take something to defend yourselves with and don't go by there
> >>alone. Homicide of a dog in self defense is not a crime in any state
> >>that I know of.
> >>Good luck with all that.
> >>Bill Baka
> >>My opinions are definitely not in sync with the group on these matters.
> >
> >
> > Your opinions are definitely not in "sync" with reality, either.
>
> You have obviously not been bitten and de-biked by a dog, I have. I
> managed to swing the bike at the dog and make contact and the dog ran
> back home. Speak up after YOU get bitten.
> Bill Baka

I got bit while riding many years ago when I was a "professional cyclist"
(actually, a paperboy). The lesson I learned is never to try and "ride by"
an agressive dog.

In many years, and many riding miles since then, I've never been bitten
despite being chased and attacked by a variety of dogs (pit bulls, German
Shepards, samoys, etc.).

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to avoid most dog attacks (especially
single dog attacks). Just a bit of common sense - something your "chase the
dog back into it's yard while carrying a big knife" advice is clearly
lacking.

GG

> >
> >
> >>>Thanks,
> >>>
> >>>Steve
> >
> >
> >

[bbaka]

GaryG wrote:
> "bbaka" > wrote in message
>>You have obviously not been bitten and de-biked by a dog, I have. I
>>managed to swing the bike at the dog and make contact and the dog ran
>>back home. Speak up after YOU get bitten.
>>Bill Baka
>
>
> I got bit while riding many years ago when I was a "professional cyclist"
> (actually, a paperboy). The lesson I learned is never to try and "ride by"
> an agressive dog.
>
> In many years, and many riding miles since then, I've never been bitten
> despite being chased and attacked by a variety of dogs (pit bulls, German
> Shepards, samoys, etc.).
>
> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to avoid most dog attacks (especially
> single dog attacks). Just a bit of common sense - something your "chase the
> dog back into it's yard while carrying a big knife" advice is clearly
> lacking.
>
> GG

I am not going to try chasing a large dog back into it's yard but I can
bluff many of them. It is fairly easy to see which dogs are just
breaking the boredom with a chase and which intend to actually bite. One
particularly aggressive dog chased me for about 2 blocks before
realizing how far from home he was and I out ran him. The big knife in
the form of a seat post is only if I run into an extremely aggressive
dog or more than two. So far I haven't had to use it and hope I never
will, but confronting the owner usually gets nothing, and if the owner
is a certain type of well known redneck you are likely to be involved in
a fist fight rather than a dog fight.
Reality sometimes bites.
Bill Baka
>
>
>>>
>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[Mark Mitchell]

> Steve Sr. wrote:

<a shaggy dog story)

(sorry, couldn't resist :)

>> Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>>
>> BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about talking
>> to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or work more
>> than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the sheriff
>> probably likes dogs more than bikers!

I think the first step would be to either have a face-to-face with the
dog's owner, politely explaining the issue. You might get lucky.
Probably not, though.

Failing that, or start here, you've got the owners' street address. Write
a (polite) letter. Keep a copy for yourself. You'll need it later if
your instinct is right about the owner's willingness to curb his dog.

Once you've made a good faith effort to work something out, it's time to
get officials involved. Make a good faith effort to get the local PD to
have a talk with the owner. Document all these communications, also.

If your instinct is correct that the PD isn't going to do anything, find
out who the police report to, and present all of your documentation when
you tell your story.

Continue this ever higher and higher, politely explaining the problem,
showing your documentation to anyone who'll look. Eventually, somebody is
going to get a call from his boss, "What the hell is going on down there?
You Will Fix This. Today. I don't want to hear from this *ssh*l* again."

If you work at it, you could make it happen in a matter of months.

Or, a more confrontational method; Bring an air horn along with you. When
the dog chases, blow the horn. When the owner or his neighbors complain,
tell them you're just trying to warn the dog to get out of your way,
because you don't want to harm the precious creature.

Pass on the annoyance.

Good luck,
Mark Mitchell

[Mark Mitchell]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 15:35:27 -0700, bbaka wrote:

> bryanska wrote:

<what happened to trimming posts, folks?>

>> Don't try to engage the pit with your hands. Even a baton like the ASP
>> is too close for comfort. Ditto a knife. Their jaws will lock until
>> their heart stops beating. If they've managed to bite you before you can
>> sink the blade, it's become a life-or-death matter for them. While the
>> lab will go off and lick its wounds, a pit will stay chomped until its
>> lights go out - and by that time, you could be fingerless or missing a
>> big, dead chunk of flesh.
>>
> I am thinking how weird it would look to carry a 36" baseball bat and if
> it would be possible to hit a Pit Bull type dog in the head with a 'home
> run' powered swing. All things being equal, I value myself and the people
> who may be riding with me a hell of a lot more than the dog owners right
> to have a vicious dog running loose. Bill Baka

My first thought here was that there's a couple pit bulls I've met (in a
friendly environment, thankfully) that'd hardly be fazed by a baseball bat.

I personally was with a friend of mine (walking), when a PB came at us
from the other side of a fence. My friend picked up a brick that was
right around there, threw it at the dog (yes, my friend was an a-hole).
The dog altered course, _caught_ the brick, dropped it, kept coming.

We left. Quickly.

Just a thought.

Mark

[Neil Brooks]

Steve Sr. > wrote:

>On Tue, 10 May 2005 21:11:11 -0400, Steve Sr. >
>wrote:
>
>>Hello,
>>
>>One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
>>(trailer) where two dogs reside. The first is an older yellow lab mix
>>and the second is a much younger (and faster!) pit-bull.
>>
>>Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
>>has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
>>comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
>>it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
>>easily.
>>
>>The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
>>get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
>>left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
>>could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!
>>
>>Unfortunately that lesson didn't take. Since then we thought that we
>>had him trained by squirting water from our water bottles at him but
>>lately even this has begun to loose its effectiveness.
>>
>>Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
>>looking for other suggestions to train the dog not to chase bikes. I
>>have thought about trying bitter apple in a squirt gun but have been
>>unable to find an appropriate sized squirt gun anymore. I also wonder
>>about aiming such a small stream of liquid at a moving target while on
>>a moving bicycle.
>>
>>I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
>>limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
>>blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
>>thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
>>that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.
>>
>>A pellet gun would probably inflict enough pain on the dog that he
>>wouldn't forget soon, but I don't have one and don't really want to
>>buy one just for this purpose if I can avoid it.
>>
>>Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>>
>>BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about
>>talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
>>work more than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the
>>sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Steve
>
>Thanks for everyone's ideas. I am not going to change my route to
>solve this problem. If I did I would never ride in any rural areas.
>The dog is the problem...Not my route!
>
>Unfortunately me and my co-worker ride at different paces so we each
>get the chance to get chased individually usually 5-15 minutes apart!
>
>I guess I didn't make my self clear the first time but the "owner" is
>"trailer trash" and the area is rural Harnett/Lee County, NC. Forget
>about getting help from law enforcement or suing the owner. I think I
>remember something about trying to get water from a stone. It just
>ain't going to happen.
>
>It looks like my options are somewhat limited. I may try some cop
>strength pepper spray if I can buy some locally which shouldn't be a
>problem in this area.
>
>I was also considering the Dog Dazor after finding it on the internet
>this afternoon. Unfortunately the review that Gary provided the link
>to was not near as glowing as some of the web sites that were selling
>the product! I may try to get one of these anyway and "improve" it as
>in Tim Taylor's - Home improvement. Afterall, I am an engineer and
>have the technology to do it. Anybody know where I can find
>information on the frequency hearing range of dogs?
>
>Whatever we decide we will probably go together when it comes time to
>"train" this dog with either chemicals or ultrasound.

So when the "trailer trash" finds out that you assaulted his dogs with
chemicals and sticks a shotgun up your @ss, should we be surprised?

Maybe you should change your attitude . . . if not your route. Your
attitude, your epithets and your stereotypical characterizations of
the player and the area involved tell a lot about you . . . and it's
not favorable.

My money's on the dog. YMMV.

Best,
Neil

[bbaka]

Steve Sr. wrote:
>
> Thanks for everyone's ideas. I am not going to change my route to
> solve this problem. If I did I would never ride in any rural areas.
> The dog is the problem...Not my route!
>
> Unfortunately me and my co-worker ride at different paces so we each
> get the chance to get chased individually usually 5-15 minutes apart!

Why don't you guys arrange to meet up just before the dog zone and then
you can both try to intimidate the dog. If the owner gets involved in
some way it is your word (2 people) against his (one person).
>
> I guess I didn't make my self clear the first time but the "owner" is
> "trailer trash" and the area is rural Harnett/Lee County, NC. Forget
> about getting help from law enforcement or suing the owner. I think I
> remember something about trying to get water from a stone. It just
> ain't going to happen.
>
> It looks like my options are somewhat limited. I may try some cop
> strength pepper spray if I can buy some locally which shouldn't be a
> problem in this area.

If you can buy a Taser and hit the dog with one good shock that should
discourage the dog for a good long time. I know I can buy one in
California so you should have no problem.
>
> I was also considering the Dog Dazor after finding it on the internet
> this afternoon. Unfortunately the review that Gary provided the link
> to was not near as glowing as some of the web sites that were selling
> the product! I may try to get one of these anyway and "improve" it as
> in Tim Taylor's - Home improvement. Afterall, I am an engineer and
> have the technology to do it. Anybody know where I can find
> information on the frequency hearing range of dogs?

If you are an engineer (analog or digital) you should be able to design
a good 130 dB blaster at about 20-22 kHz to nail the dog. If you are
like me though it may hurt your ears, too so you might want to try a
slightly higher frequency. I am not sure what 130 dB would do to a
persons ears at 20-22 kHz, and not eager to find out. You would not need
to get fancy, just blast a square wave into a good super tweeter and
damn the harmonics, they may add to the effect on the dog. Maybe you
could mount it to the back of your bike and have an 'anti-dog' button on
the handlebars. It sounds like a good challenge for an engineer,
assuming you mean electronics, as I am, and a hopeless sucker for tinkering.
Bill Baka
>
> Whatever we decide we will probably go together when it comes time to
> "train" this dog with either chemicals or ultrasound.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>

[bbaka]

Neil Brooks wrote:
> Steve Sr. > wrote:
>
>
>>On Tue, 10 May 2005 21:11:11 -0400, Steve Sr. >
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hello,
>>>
>>>One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
>>>(trailer) where two dogs reside. The first is an older yellow lab mix
>>>and the second is a much younger (and faster!) pit-bull.
>>>
>>>Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
>>>has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
>>>comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
>>>it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
>>>easily.
>>>
>>>The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
>>>get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
>>>left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
>>>could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!
>>>
>>>Unfortunately that lesson didn't take. Since then we thought that we
>>>had him trained by squirting water from our water bottles at him but
>>>lately even this has begun to loose its effectiveness.
>>>
>>>Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
>>>looking for other suggestions to train the dog not to chase bikes. I
>>>have thought about trying bitter apple in a squirt gun but have been
>>>unable to find an appropriate sized squirt gun anymore. I also wonder
>>>about aiming such a small stream of liquid at a moving target while on
>>>a moving bicycle.
>>>
>>>I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
>>>limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
>>>blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
>>>thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
>>>that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.
>>>
>>>A pellet gun would probably inflict enough pain on the dog that he
>>>wouldn't forget soon, but I don't have one and don't really want to
>>>buy one just for this purpose if I can avoid it.
>>>
>>>Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>>>
>>>BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about
>>>talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
>>>work more than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the
>>>sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Steve
>>
>>Thanks for everyone's ideas. I am not going to change my route to
>>solve this problem. If I did I would never ride in any rural areas.
>>The dog is the problem...Not my route!
>>
>>Unfortunately me and my co-worker ride at different paces so we each
>>get the chance to get chased individually usually 5-15 minutes apart!
>>
>>I guess I didn't make my self clear the first time but the "owner" is
>>"trailer trash" and the area is rural Harnett/Lee County, NC. Forget
>>about getting help from law enforcement or suing the owner. I think I
>>remember something about trying to get water from a stone. It just
>>ain't going to happen.
>>
>>It looks like my options are somewhat limited. I may try some cop
>>strength pepper spray if I can buy some locally which shouldn't be a
>>problem in this area.
>>
>>I was also considering the Dog Dazor after finding it on the internet
>>this afternoon. Unfortunately the review that Gary provided the link
>>to was not near as glowing as some of the web sites that were selling
>>the product! I may try to get one of these anyway and "improve" it as
>>in Tim Taylor's - Home improvement. Afterall, I am an engineer and
>>have the technology to do it. Anybody know where I can find
>>information on the frequency hearing range of dogs?
>>
>>Whatever we decide we will probably go together when it comes time to
>>"train" this dog with either chemicals or ultrasound.
>
>
> So when the "trailer trash" finds out that you assaulted his dogs with
> chemicals and sticks a shotgun up your @ss, should we be surprised?
>
> Maybe you should change your attitude . . . if not your route. Your
> attitude, your epithets and your stereotypical characterizations of
> the player and the area involved tell a lot about you . . . and it's
> not favorable.
>
> My money's on the dog. YMMV.
>
> Best,
> Neil

So Neil,
Now you are cheering the dog on?
He may not have an alternate route if it is in a country setting. What?
Just cut across farmer Jones' field and he won't care?
I don't think it works that way. I have certain routes I have to take
because I have a huge Air Force Base (Beale) in the way, and they
definitely won't let me just take a short cut through the base.
Bill Baka

[bbaka]

Mark Mitchell wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2005 15:35:27 -0700, bbaka wrote:
>
>>I am thinking how weird it would look to carry a 36" baseball bat and if
>>it would be possible to hit a Pit Bull type dog in the head with a 'home
>>run' powered swing. All things being equal, I value myself and the people
>>who may be riding with me a hell of a lot more than the dog owners right
>>to have a vicious dog running loose. Bill Baka
>
>
> My first thought here was that there's a couple pit bulls I've met (in a
> friendly environment, thankfully) that'd hardly be fazed by a baseball bat.
>
> I personally was with a friend of mine (walking), when a PB came at us
> from the other side of a fence. My friend picked up a brick that was
> right around there, threw it at the dog (yes, my friend was an a-hole).
> The dog altered course, _caught_ the brick, dropped it, kept coming.

Interesting. Most dogs will run when you start throwing things at them
but will think it is a game if you throw things in a way that they think
is playing catch. But, a brick???? I find it easier to check out the new
dogs on my regular routes and try to become friends, especially if they
are puppies. My neighbor across the street got a Pit Bull as a puppy and
I go over there every day to play with it over the fence and get some
play bites and a thorough face licking, but it now knows me as one of
its friends. Seriously, it caught a brick??? Did it have a big red 'S'
on it's chest.
That must have been some dog.
Bill Baka
>
> We left. Quickly.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Mark
>

[Maggie]

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Maggie wrote:
> > Rich wrote:
>
> >> P.S. And join the NRA. TH=hey will help defend your right to bare
> >> arms in the event you need to go to court.
>
> > Just what we need, another member of the NRA.
>
> > Maggie
> >
> > Member of the Million Mom March
>
> Yeah, but do you ladies have BARE ARMS?
>
> Bill "pssst, Maggie. He was joking" S.


Psssst Bill.....My brain goes into overdrive when I read the initials
NRA.......And yes the million Moms have "bare arms".

Strong BARE ARMS to cradle babies and children instead of guns.

Maggie.

[Roger Zoul]

Mark Mitchell > wrote:
:>
:> I personally was with a friend of mine (walking), when a PB came at
:> us from the other side of a fence. My friend picked up a brick that
:> was right around there, threw it at the dog (yes, my friend was an
:> a-hole). The dog altered course, _caught_ the brick, dropped it,
:> kept coming.

Damn....

[Neil Brooks]

bbaka > wrote:

>So Neil,
>Now you are cheering the dog on?
>He may not have an alternate route if it is in a country setting. What?
>Just cut across farmer Jones' field and he won't care?
>I don't think it works that way. I have certain routes I have to take
>because I have a huge Air Force Base (Beale) in the way, and they
>definitely won't let me just take a short cut through the base.
>Bill Baka

If you reread my post, I'm on the dog's side because this guy strikes
me as a bigot. I don't like bigots. The following comments add
nothing to the substance of the story, except to tell us a bit about
his character.

>>>One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
>>>(trailer) where two dogs reside.

>>>Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are

>>>BTW, this is in a lower income rural area.

>>I guess I didn't make my self clear the first time but the "owner" is
>>"trailer trash" and the area is rural Harnett/Lee County, NC. Forget
>>about getting help from law enforcement or suing the owner. I think I
>>remember something about trying to get water from a stone. It just
>>ain't going to happen.

I also think he's having just a little too much fun figuring out ways
to "defend against" (read: attack) the dog, rather than talking to
either the owner or law enforcement first. His comments seem to
support that, too.

To the OP: here. Read this:

http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/traffic/dogs.htm

After that, you might want to do a little soul-searching to find out
if these outmoded values are really helping you, generally.

Good luck (on all fronts)!

Neil

[Pat Lamb]

Steve Sr. wrote:
>
> Thanks for everyone's ideas. I am not going to change my route to
> solve this problem. If I did I would never ride in any rural areas.
> The dog is the problem...Not my route!
>
> Unfortunately me and my co-worker ride at different paces so we each
> get the chance to get chased individually usually 5-15 minutes apart!
>
> I guess I didn't make my self clear the first time but the "owner" is
> "trailer trash" and the area is rural Harnett/Lee County, NC. Forget
> about getting help from law enforcement or suing the owner. I think I
> remember something about trying to get water from a stone. It just
> ain't going to happen.

Mark has a good recommendation, a few posts down, to ride past this dog
with your cow-orker so you have a witness. (How are you riding WITH him
when you're 15 minutes apart?) I think it'd be worth one call to the
sheriff. You're probably right about his response, but let him tell you
he won't help. Keep a record. (Speakerphone with the coworker, perhaps?)

IIRC, NC has a law allowing you to kill any dog chasing livestock. You
might want to ask the sheriff if that applies to dogs chasing people, as
well.

If you want to try the pepper spray, go for it. If you've got a rack,
strap on a baseball bat for backup. If that doesn't work, go for the
big guns -- or at least as big as will fit in your jersey pocket.

Make sure the dog is in the road or otherwise off the owner's property
when you shoot it.

As for the "be nice to the doggie" and "you're a redneck" posts, well,
can you tell we're mostly a bunch of city slickers here?

Pat

[GaryG]

"bbaka" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Sr. wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for everyone's ideas. I am not going to change my route to
> > solve this problem. If I did I would never ride in any rural areas.
> > The dog is the problem...Not my route!
> >
> > Unfortunately me and my co-worker ride at different paces so we each
> > get the chance to get chased individually usually 5-15 minutes apart!
>
> Why don't you guys arrange to meet up just before the dog zone and then
> you can both try to intimidate the dog. If the owner gets involved in
> some way it is your word (2 people) against his (one person).
> >
> > I guess I didn't make my self clear the first time but the "owner" is
> > "trailer trash" and the area is rural Harnett/Lee County, NC. Forget
> > about getting help from law enforcement or suing the owner. I think I
> > remember something about trying to get water from a stone. It just
> > ain't going to happen.
> >
> > It looks like my options are somewhat limited. I may try some cop
> > strength pepper spray if I can buy some locally which shouldn't be a
> > problem in this area.
>
> If you can buy a Taser and hit the dog with one good shock that should
> discourage the dog for a good long time. I know I can buy one in
> California so you should have no problem.
> >
> > I was also considering the Dog Dazor after finding it on the internet
> > this afternoon. Unfortunately the review that Gary provided the link
> > to was not near as glowing as some of the web sites that were selling
> > the product! I may try to get one of these anyway and "improve" it as
> > in Tim Taylor's - Home improvement. Afterall, I am an engineer and
> > have the technology to do it. Anybody know where I can find
> > information on the frequency hearing range of dogs?
>
> If you are an engineer (analog or digital) you should be able to design
> a good 130 dB blaster at about 20-22 kHz to nail the dog. If you are
> like me though it may hurt your ears, too so you might want to try a
> slightly higher frequency. I am not sure what 130 dB would do to a
> persons ears at 20-22 kHz, and not eager to find out. You would not need
> to get fancy, just blast a square wave into a good super tweeter and
> damn the harmonics, they may add to the effect on the dog. Maybe you
> could mount it to the back of your bike and have an 'anti-dog' button on
> the handlebars. It sounds like a good challenge for an engineer,
> assuming you mean electronics, as I am, and a hopeless sucker for
tinkering.
> Bill Baka

I think you're onto something here, Bill. Why don't you use your
engineering "skills" to design the ultimate anti-dog device. You could
power it with nicads mounted in a water bottle cage, for maximum power.
With a proper application of sound energy, you could probably deafen the dog
(imagine the look on the owner's face when their dog comes home with blood
streaming out of its ears!).

And, I've got the perfect name for it too:

The Bill Baka Bike-mounted Bull**** Blaster

You'll be rich! Best of luck.

GG

> >
> > Whatever we decide we will probably go together when it comes time to
> > "train" this dog with either chemicals or ultrasound.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Steve
> >

[bbaka]

Neil Brooks wrote:
> bbaka > wrote:
>
>
>>So Neil,
>>Now you are cheering the dog on?
>>He may not have an alternate route if it is in a country setting. What?
>>Just cut across farmer Jones' field and he won't care?
>>I don't think it works that way. I have certain routes I have to take
>>because I have a huge Air Force Base (Beale) in the way, and they
>>definitely won't let me just take a short cut through the base.
>>Bill Baka
>
>
> If you reread my post, I'm on the dog's side because this guy strikes
> me as a bigot. I don't like bigots. The following comments add
> nothing to the substance of the story, except to tell us a bit about
> his character.

OK, he may be a bigot, but he should also be able to ride without a dog
attacking him every time.
>
>
>>>>One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
>>>>(trailer) where two dogs reside.
>
>
>>>>Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
>
>
>>>>BTW, this is in a lower income rural area.
>
>
>>>I guess I didn't make my self clear the first time but the "owner" is
>>>"trailer trash" and the area is rural Harnett/Lee County, NC. Forget
>>>about getting help from law enforcement or suing the owner. I think I
>>>remember something about trying to get water from a stone. It just
>>>ain't going to happen.

NC is not the most advanced state in the union either, especially in the
rural areas.
>
>
> I also think he's having just a little too much fun figuring out ways
> to "defend against" (read: attack) the dog, rather than talking to
> either the owner or law enforcement first. His comments seem to
> support that, too.

My father retired in rural Arkansas and knew all the sheriffs personally
since his next door neighbor was a deputy. They leaned in the direction
of don't bother them unless it is major. He was drinking buddies with
them and all the moonshine they collected for evidence (yeah, right).
Some states have counties that just work differently.
>
> To the OP: here. Read this:
>
> http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/traffic/dogs.htm
>
> After that, you might want to do a little soul-searching to find out
> if these outmoded values are really helping you, generally.

As I have mentioned, with most non Pit Bulls I turn around and chase
them back home along with some stern warning noises. This is for their
own good so they won't be road kill running out to chase me just as a
truck or car comes by. Some I will stop and make nice with and have a
doggie friend next time around.
Peace first, fight last.
Bill Baka
>
> Good luck (on all fronts)!
>
> Neil

[bbaka]

Pat Lamb wrote:
> Steve Sr. wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks for everyone's ideas. I am not going to change my route to
>> solve this problem. If I did I would never ride in any rural areas.
>> The dog is the problem...Not my route!
>>
>> Unfortunately me and my co-worker ride at different paces so we each
>> get the chance to get chased individually usually 5-15 minutes apart!
>>
>> I guess I didn't make my self clear the first time but the "owner" is
>> "trailer trash" and the area is rural Harnett/Lee County, NC. Forget
>> about getting help from law enforcement or suing the owner. I think I
>> remember something about trying to get water from a stone. It just
>> ain't going to happen.
>
>
> Mark has a good recommendation, a few posts down, to ride past this dog
> with your cow-orker so you have a witness. (How are you riding WITH him
> when you're 15 minutes apart?) I think it'd be worth one call to the
> sheriff. You're probably right about his response, but let him tell you
> he won't help. Keep a record. (Speakerphone with the coworker, perhaps?)
>
> IIRC, NC has a law allowing you to kill any dog chasing livestock. You
> might want to ask the sheriff if that applies to dogs chasing people, as
> well.

I would count my own safety as a little higher than livestock, and same
for the kids that sometimes ride with me. We did have a dog incident
last year and I had to tell the kids to haul ass while I dealt with the
dog. It was not friendly but I was able to chase it back to its own
property so we could get back to our ride.
>
> If you want to try the pepper spray, go for it. If you've got a rack,
> strap on a baseball bat for backup. If that doesn't work, go for the
> big guns -- or at least as big as will fit in your jersey pocket.
>
> Make sure the dog is in the road or otherwise off the owner's property
> when you shoot it.
>
> As for the "be nice to the doggie" and "you're a redneck" posts, well,
> can you tell we're mostly a bunch of city slickers here?

It does show because you mention taking alternate routes when there are
often none available in the country areas.
Bill Baka
>
> Pat

[bbaka]

GaryG wrote:
> "bbaka" > wrote in message
> ...
>>If you are an engineer (analog or digital) you should be able to design
>>a good 130 dB blaster at about 20-22 kHz to nail the dog. If you are
>>like me though it may hurt your ears, too so you might want to try a
>>slightly higher frequency. I am not sure what 130 dB would do to a
>>persons ears at 20-22 kHz, and not eager to find out. You would not need
>>to get fancy, just blast a square wave into a good super tweeter and
>>damn the harmonics, they may add to the effect on the dog. Maybe you
>>could mount it to the back of your bike and have an 'anti-dog' button on
>>the handlebars. It sounds like a good challenge for an engineer,
>>assuming you mean electronics, as I am, and a hopeless sucker for
>
> tinkering.
>
>>Bill Baka
>
>
> I think you're onto something here, Bill. Why don't you use your
> engineering "skills" to design the ultimate anti-dog device. You could
> power it with nicads mounted in a water bottle cage, for maximum power.
> With a proper application of sound energy, you could probably deafen the dog
> (imagine the look on the owner's face when their dog comes home with blood
> streaming out of its ears!).

First off, NiCads are way out of date. NiMh is the new cheap
rechargeable, and Lithium-ion if you have the money. The second problem
is with the availability of actual tinkering parts since they would have
to be Radio Shack quality (read rejects from real companies). And no, I
don't want that much energy, 150 dB or more, since I might damage
people's ears too.
>
> And, I've got the perfect name for it too:
>
> The Bill Baka Bike-mounted Bull**** Blaster

If I put in a frequency switch can I try it out on you at say maybe 5 kHz?
Bill Baka
>
> You'll be rich! Best of luck.
>
> GG
>
>
>>>Whatever we decide we will probably go together when it comes time to
>>>"train" this dog with either chemicals or ultrasound.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Steve
>>>
>
>
>

[frkrygow@yahoo.com]

Neil Brooks wrote:
>
>
> If you reread my post, I'm on the dog's side because this guy strikes
> me as a bigot. I don't like bigots. The following comments add
> nothing to the substance of the story, except to tell us a bit about
> his character.
>
> >>>One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a
house
> >>>(trailer) where two dogs reside.
>
> >>>Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
>
> >>>BTW, this is in a lower income rural area.
>
> >>I guess I didn't make my self clear the first time but the "owner"
is
> >>"trailer trash" and the area is rural Harnett/Lee County, NC.
Forget
> >>about getting help from law enforcement or suing the owner. I think
I
> >>remember something about trying to get water from a stone. It just
> >>ain't going to happen.
>
> I also think he's having just a little too much fun figuring out ways
> to "defend against" (read: attack) the dog, rather than talking to
> either the owner or law enforcement first. His comments seem to
> support that, too.

I disagree entirely. It seems likely to me that you're not familiar
with the type.

When we lived and rode in the rural south, it wasn't hard to tell which
houses (or trailers) would have undisciplined dogs. When we came up to
a yard on a country road that had dead rusting vehicles, piles of
broken machinery, a leaning pre-fab garden shed, a house needing paint,
and a big pickup with large exhaust pipes, we knew to watch for dogs.
We knew this by experience.

We now live up north. Dogs are much better controlled, and dog
problems are much more rare. But the last serious bite suffered by a
bike club member was related to just such a residence.

I say "related to" because the law _was_ called in that instance; and
predictably, the people living there said "That's not our dog. And we
haven't seen him around since a few days ago." The cops told the
victim they wouldn't be able to prove anything. BTW, the dog vanished
- I suspect it was shot and buried by those owners, who probably feared
a lawsuit.

Down south, we were chased _very_ frequently. I took to throwing rocks
at dogs to keep them away from my wife and son. I had several owners
who shouted fiercely because I dared defend my family. I had dogs
sicced on me as I rode. My wife had a dog bite her bike's panniers and
try to pull her down. This stuff is real, and the people that allow or
perpetrate it _are_ trash.

Perhaps you object to the term "trailer trash." Well, during the years
most of those incidents happened, we were living in a mobile home. If
anything, you'd expect me to be sympathetic to others in mobile homes.

But it's not the type of home construction. It's the type of person
living in it, and you _can_ tell something by the appearance of the
place, in my experience.

- Frank Krygowski

[Neil Brooks]

wrote:

>
>Neil Brooks wrote:
>>
>>
>> If you reread my post, I'm on the dog's side because this guy strikes
>> me as a bigot. I don't like bigots. The following comments add
>> nothing to the substance of the story, except to tell us a bit about
>> his character.
>>
>> >>>One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a
>house
>> >>>(trailer) where two dogs reside.
>>
>> >>>Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
>>
>> >>>BTW, this is in a lower income rural area.
>>
>> >>I guess I didn't make my self clear the first time but the "owner"
>is
>> >>"trailer trash" and the area is rural Harnett/Lee County, NC.
>Forget
>> >>about getting help from law enforcement or suing the owner. I think
>I
>> >>remember something about trying to get water from a stone. It just
>> >>ain't going to happen.
>>
>> I also think he's having just a little too much fun figuring out ways
>> to "defend against" (read: attack) the dog, rather than talking to
>> either the owner or law enforcement first. His comments seem to
>> support that, too.
>
>I disagree entirely. It seems likely to me that you're not familiar
>with the type.
>
>When we lived and rode in the rural south, it wasn't hard to tell which
>houses (or trailers) would have undisciplined dogs. When we came up to
>a yard on a country road that had dead rusting vehicles, piles of
>broken machinery, a leaning pre-fab garden shed, a house needing paint,
>and a big pickup with large exhaust pipes, we knew to watch for dogs.
>We knew this by experience.
>
>We now live up north. Dogs are much better controlled, and dog
>problems are much more rare. But the last serious bite suffered by a
>bike club member was related to just such a residence.
>
>I say "related to" because the law _was_ called in that instance; and
>predictably, the people living there said "That's not our dog. And we
>haven't seen him around since a few days ago." The cops told the
>victim they wouldn't be able to prove anything. BTW, the dog vanished
>- I suspect it was shot and buried by those owners, who probably feared
>a lawsuit.
>
>Down south, we were chased _very_ frequently. I took to throwing rocks
>at dogs to keep them away from my wife and son. I had several owners
>who shouted fiercely because I dared defend my family. I had dogs
>sicced on me as I rode. My wife had a dog bite her bike's panniers and
>try to pull her down. This stuff is real, and the people that allow or
>perpetrate it _are_ trash.
>
>Perhaps you object to the term "trailer trash." Well, during the years
>most of those incidents happened, we were living in a mobile home. If
>anything, you'd expect me to be sympathetic to others in mobile homes.
>
>But it's not the type of home construction. It's the type of person
>living in it, and you _can_ tell something by the appearance of the
>place, in my experience.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

It's about the dog, Frank -- whether that dog is owned by Jacqueline
Kennedy Onassis or by Cletus, the Slack-Jawed Yokel (TM).

A discussion centered around *how likely* you are to be chased by a
dog, based on the demographics of the area, might have value, at some
point. This isn't that discussion. He *is* being chased by a dog(s).
At that point, owner relevance is diminished dramatically.

Summarily dismissing even the *possibility* of pursuing the owner or
law enforcement doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Try
(appropriately, and in good faith), and then tell us what happened.

Either way, there are 'best practices' for handling the dog -- either
with the dog, directly, with the owner, or with law enforcement. The
OP now has access to those.

Neil
From the trailer park (literally)

[Jeff Starr]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 22:11:14 -0700, bbaka > wrote:


>> So when the "trailer trash" finds out that you assaulted his dogs with
>> chemicals and sticks a shotgun up your @ss, should we be surprised?
>>
>> Maybe you should change your attitude . . . if not your route. Your
>> attitude, your epithets and your stereotypical characterizations of
>> the player and the area involved tell a lot about you . . . and it's
>> not favorable.
>>
>> My money's on the dog. YMMV.
>>
>> Best,
>> Neil
>
>So Neil,
>Now you are cheering the dog on?
>He may not have an alternate route if it is in a country setting. What?
>Just cut across farmer Jones' field and he won't care?
>I don't think it works that way. I have certain routes I have to take
>because I have a huge Air Force Base (Beale) in the way, and they
>definitely won't let me just take a short cut through the base.
>Bill Baka

little bill,
Neil was getting on the guy for insulting "trailer trash", you of all
the people on this NG, should be sensitive to that.


Life is Good!
Jeff

[SlowRider]

bbaka wrote:
> > But that's for your garden-variety pet dog off his leash, not a
> > snarling attack dog. In the latter case I would call animal
control.
>
> After you get bit?

If you are bitten, it's time to call the police and have the animal put
down. (Actually the police will probably bring in animal control.) If
you know in advance that the animal is there and is dangerous, then
pursue the appropriate authorities (animal control or police) until the
area is safe to navigate.

> We have a leash law but the police never even attempt to enforce it.
> They just drive by the dog and do nothing, and I never see an animal
> control truck come out unless someones child gets bitten or something

> along those lines.

Perhaps the reason animal control doesn't come out is because nobody
calls them until a child is hurt. I've called them several times in
relatively benign situations (raccoon trapped under the deck, lost dogs
without their tags, etc.), and they've always been willing to help.


-JR

[Pat Lamb]

SlowRider wrote:
> bbaka wrote:
>
>>We have a leash law but the police never even attempt to enforce it.
>>They just drive by the dog and do nothing, and I never see an animal
>>control truck come out unless someones child gets bitten or something
>>along those lines.
>
>
> Perhaps the reason animal control doesn't come out is because nobody
> calls them until a child is hurt. I've called them several times in
> relatively benign situations (raccoon trapped under the deck, lost dogs
> without their tags, etc.), and they've always been willing to help.

Forgot which county the OP was from -- do they even HAVE animal control
there?

Pat

[D. Dub]

"Neil Brooks" > wrote in message >

So when the "trailer trash" finds out that you assaulted his dogs with
> chemicals and sticks a shotgun up your @ss, should we be surprised?
>
> Maybe you should change your attitude . . . if not your route. Your
> attitude, your epithets and your stereotypical characterizations of
> the player and the area involved tell a lot about you . . . and it's
> not favorable.
>
> My money's on the dog. YMMV.
>
> Best,
> Neil


That is funneeee....and in humour we often find truth!!!

[frkrygow@yahoo.com]

Neil Brooks wrote:
> wrote:
>
> >
> >But it's not the type of home construction. It's the type of person
> >living in it, and you _can_ tell something by the appearance of the
> >place, in my experience.
> >

>
> It's about the dog, Frank -- whether that dog is owned by Jacqueline
> Kennedy Onassis or by Cletus, the Slack-Jawed Yokel (TM).
>
> A discussion centered around *how likely* you are to be chased by a
> dog, based on the demographics of the area, might have value, at some
> point. This isn't that discussion. He *is* being chased by a
dog(s).
> At that point, owner relevance is diminished dramatically.
>
> Summarily dismissing even the *possibility* of pursuing the owner or
> law enforcement doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Try
> (appropriately, and in good faith), and then tell us what happened.

But you have no idea what went into the OP's summary dismissal.

Again, one cycling friend of mine was knocked off his bike twice within
three years by dogs. After one of those attacks, he phoned the
sheriff. The sheriff said (this is, I believe, the exact quote): "If
I were you, I'd just get a gun and shoot that dog." But aside from
that advice, the sheriff wouldn't get involved.

I don't know where you live, Neil, but in my experience, there are big
differences in culture within America. The OP is in an area I'm
familiar with. If he says calling the law would be useless, I can
believe him.

I had some astounding experiences with "The Law," as a law-abiding
citizen being harrassed by perpetrators of various degrees, and as an
observer of what happened to my friends. "Settle it yourself" was not
an uncommon sentiment. Likewise "If he didn't shoot at you it's not
worth our trouble." And there was one big example of "I'm friends with
his mother so I'm throwing this one out of court."

It's about the dog, but it's also about the owner, and it's also about
the local culture.

- Frank Krygowski

[Trailgalore]

"bbaka" > wrote in message
...
> GaryG wrote:
> > "bbaka" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>>Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?

TAZER! (Or one of those silent dog whistles )

[Neil Brooks]

wrote:

>
>Neil Brooks wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >But it's not the type of home construction. It's the type of person
>> >living in it, and you _can_ tell something by the appearance of the
>> >place, in my experience.
>> >
>
>>
>> It's about the dog, Frank -- whether that dog is owned by Jacqueline
>> Kennedy Onassis or by Cletus, the Slack-Jawed Yokel (TM).
>>
>> A discussion centered around *how likely* you are to be chased by a
>> dog, based on the demographics of the area, might have value, at some
>> point. This isn't that discussion. He *is* being chased by a
>dog(s).
>> At that point, owner relevance is diminished dramatically.
>>
>> Summarily dismissing even the *possibility* of pursuing the owner or
>> law enforcement doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Try
>> (appropriately, and in good faith), and then tell us what happened.
>
>But you have no idea what went into the OP's summary dismissal.
>
>Again, one cycling friend of mine was knocked off his bike twice within
>three years by dogs. After one of those attacks, he phoned the
>sheriff. The sheriff said (this is, I believe, the exact quote): "If
>I were you, I'd just get a gun and shoot that dog." But aside from
>that advice, the sheriff wouldn't get involved.
>
>I don't know where you live, Neil, but in my experience, there are big
>differences in culture within America. The OP is in an area I'm
>familiar with. If he says calling the law would be useless, I can
>believe him.
>
>I had some astounding experiences with "The Law," as a law-abiding
>citizen being harrassed by perpetrators of various degrees, and as an
>observer of what happened to my friends. "Settle it yourself" was not
>an uncommon sentiment. Likewise "If he didn't shoot at you it's not
>worth our trouble." And there was one big example of "I'm friends with
>his mother so I'm throwing this one out of court."
>
>It's about the dog, but it's also about the owner, and it's also about
>the local culture.

Valid points, all, Frank. Did three years in SW Florida. It's still
a bit of a backwater in parts. I ran up against the cultural barrier
in many cases. I guess I took it upon myself to see if I could change
the system by working within it gently and tactfully. Think Colin
Powell rather than John Bolton ;-) (btw: I love Voinovich today!)

The sheriff reports to somebody. Animal Control probably exists
within the county. These methods may not work, but should be tried
before the Glock comes out of the holster.

Reasonable force is justified. I've heard people say that you should
ride with a pump (which I do). If a dog chases you with malicious
intent (judgment call, to be sure), a Zefal to the schnozz may leave a
lasting impression . . . and let the dog live to roam another day.

The Dazer (http://www.dazer.com/dog-deterrent.jsp) seems like a good
*next* step if contacting the appropriate authorities leads nowhere.

As I learned in Florida: much exists within Southern culture that is
wonderful, charming, engaging, and comfortable. But some long-held
traditions, thought patterns, values, and beliefs never ceased to
throw me for a loop.

Neil

[Buck]

Steve Sr. wrote:
> I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
> limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
> blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
> thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
> that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.
>
> Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>
> BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about
> talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
> work more than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the
> sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!

Since moving to rural Arkansas, I have had to deal with a number of
dogs. The most effective training tool I have found is pepper spray. It
usually takes three or four times, but they do learn eventually.

This also works to train "owners" of dogs. No, don't pepper spray the
owner unless absolutely necessary. But once they learn that they will
have to clean up their dog every time it chases you, they learn to keep
the animal on a leash or in a fenced yard.

If this is outside of a city limits, you may find that there are no
leash laws or even laws to deal with menacing animals. The recommended
method is to shoot the dog.

Good luck!
-Buck

[Geezer Boy]

As someone pointed out, squirt guns leak. Pellet or BB pistol (CO2) is
a good option, but extreme. And somewhat heavy.

For several years I have used a Bausch & Lomb Eyewash bottle. (Good
product, BTW, for general dry eyes and cleansing, cheap too.) Has a
snap-off cap. Holds 4 ounces. *Does not leak under any conditions.*
Fill with ammonia. Much stronger than Halt, which is my preference and
first line of defense. The bottle is only somewhat larger than a Halt
canister. One hand does it; snaps cap off and squirts a fat stream at
close range. Ammonia anywhere in a dog's face is extremely painful.

Those dog apologists who have never been bitten or tossed of their
bike by a free- roaming dog might find it useful to have some
experience in these matters before theorizing. That's my theory.

In NY State, biters have to be quarantined at owner's expense for ten
days, to make sure rabies doesn't manifest.

Many dog owners seem oblivious to their obnoxious "kids." Dogs
allowed to jump up on visitors, dogs allowed to poke and sniff
crotches of visitors (the ladies love this, I'm sure), with owners
mildly rebuking the dog, the dog paying no attention. In these
instances, it's obvious who is on which end of the psychological
leash.

Well-behaved and controlled dogs are another matter entirely.

[garmonboezia]

"Maggie" > wrote in
news:1115891348.347113.54620
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Maggie wrote:
>> > Rich wrote:
>>
>> >> P.S. And join the NRA. TH=hey will help defend
your
>> >> right to bare arms in the event you need to go to
>> >> court.
>>
>> > Just what we need, another member of the NRA.
>>
>> > Maggie
>> >
>> > Member of the Million Mom March
>>
>> Yeah, but do you ladies have BARE ARMS?
>>
>> Bill "pssst, Maggie. He was joking" S.
>
>
> Psssst Bill.....My brain goes into overdrive when I
read
> the initials NRA.......And yes the million Moms have
"bare
> arms".
>
> Strong BARE ARMS to cradle babies and children
instead of
> guns.
>
> Maggie.
>
>

Protect your right to arm bears.

Mike

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

[bbaka]

Jeff Starr wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2005 22:11:14 -0700, bbaka > wrote:
>
>
>
>>>So when the "trailer trash" finds out that you assaulted his dogs with
>>>chemicals and sticks a shotgun up your @ss, should we be surprised?
>>>
>>>Maybe you should change your attitude . . . if not your route. Your
>>>attitude, your epithets and your stereotypical characterizations of
>>>the player and the area involved tell a lot about you . . . and it's
>>>not favorable.
>>>
>>>My money's on the dog. YMMV.
>>>
>>>Best,
>>>Neil
>>
>>So Neil,
>>Now you are cheering the dog on?
>>He may not have an alternate route if it is in a country setting. What?
>>Just cut across farmer Jones' field and he won't care?
>>I don't think it works that way. I have certain routes I have to take
>>because I have a huge Air Force Base (Beale) in the way, and they
>>definitely won't let me just take a short cut through the base.
>>Bill Baka
>
>
> little bill,
> Neil was getting on the guy for insulting "trailer trash", you of all
> the people on this NG, should be sensitive to that.
>
>
> Life is Good!
> Jeff

I never, ever lived in a trailer. Sorry, wrong Bill this time. I have
known some trailer trash and that is a good thing to have in the past,
not present.
Bill Baka

[GaryG]

"Neil Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Neil Brooks wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >But it's not the type of home construction. It's the type of person
> >> >living in it, and you _can_ tell something by the appearance of the
> >> >place, in my experience.
> >> >
> >
> >>
> >> It's about the dog, Frank -- whether that dog is owned by Jacqueline
> >> Kennedy Onassis or by Cletus, the Slack-Jawed Yokel (TM).
> >>
> >> A discussion centered around *how likely* you are to be chased by a
> >> dog, based on the demographics of the area, might have value, at some
> >> point. This isn't that discussion. He *is* being chased by a
> >dog(s).
> >> At that point, owner relevance is diminished dramatically.
> >>
> >> Summarily dismissing even the *possibility* of pursuing the owner or
> >> law enforcement doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Try
> >> (appropriately, and in good faith), and then tell us what happened.
> >
> >But you have no idea what went into the OP's summary dismissal.
> >
> >Again, one cycling friend of mine was knocked off his bike twice within
> >three years by dogs. After one of those attacks, he phoned the
> >sheriff. The sheriff said (this is, I believe, the exact quote): "If
> >I were you, I'd just get a gun and shoot that dog." But aside from
> >that advice, the sheriff wouldn't get involved.
> >
> >I don't know where you live, Neil, but in my experience, there are big
> >differences in culture within America. The OP is in an area I'm
> >familiar with. If he says calling the law would be useless, I can
> >believe him.
> >
> >I had some astounding experiences with "The Law," as a law-abiding
> >citizen being harrassed by perpetrators of various degrees, and as an
> >observer of what happened to my friends. "Settle it yourself" was not
> >an uncommon sentiment. Likewise "If he didn't shoot at you it's not
> >worth our trouble." And there was one big example of "I'm friends with
> >his mother so I'm throwing this one out of court."
> >
> >It's about the dog, but it's also about the owner, and it's also about
> >the local culture.
>
> Valid points, all, Frank. Did three years in SW Florida. It's still
> a bit of a backwater in parts. I ran up against the cultural barrier
> in many cases. I guess I took it upon myself to see if I could change
> the system by working within it gently and tactfully. Think Colin
> Powell rather than John Bolton ;-) (btw: I love Voinovich today!)
>
> The sheriff reports to somebody. Animal Control probably exists
> within the county. These methods may not work, but should be tried
> before the Glock comes out of the holster.
>
> Reasonable force is justified. I've heard people say that you should
> ride with a pump (which I do). If a dog chases you with malicious
> intent (judgment call, to be sure), a Zefal to the schnozz may leave a
> lasting impression . . . and let the dog live to roam another day.
>
> The Dazer (http://www.dazer.com/dog-deterrent.jsp) seems like a good
> *next* step if contacting the appropriate authorities leads nowhere.

FWIW, most "ultrasonic pest deterrents" are bogus, and the Dazer is no
exception. Pepper spray (full strength, not the watered down "Halt"
product) is a much more effective non-lethal deterrent.

See: http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/journal/?o=as&doc_id=194&v=2 for a lot
of good info on dealing with dogs, and an in-depth discussion of the Dazer.

GG

>
> As I learned in Florida: much exists within Southern culture that is
> wonderful, charming, engaging, and comfortable. But some long-held
> traditions, thought patterns, values, and beliefs never ceased to
> throw me for a loop.
>
> Neil

[GaryG]

"Geezer Boy" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> As someone pointed out, squirt guns leak. Pellet or BB pistol (CO2) is
> a good option, but extreme. And somewhat heavy.
>
> For several years I have used a Bausch & Lomb Eyewash bottle. (Good
> product, BTW, for general dry eyes and cleansing, cheap too.) Has a
> snap-off cap. Holds 4 ounces. *Does not leak under any conditions.*
> Fill with ammonia. Much stronger than Halt, which is my preference and
> first line of defense. The bottle is only somewhat larger than a Halt
> canister. One hand does it; snaps cap off and squirts a fat stream at
> close range. Ammonia anywhere in a dog's face is extremely painful.

Halt is watered down pepper spray.

Have you tried the full strength pepper spray? It fits in a jersey pocket,
and has a 10-12 foot range, and can be used against two-legged attackers as
well.

I'd be worred about causing permanent injury to the dog with ammonia.

GG

>
> Those dog apologists who have never been bitten or tossed of their
> bike by a free- roaming dog might find it useful to have some
> experience in these matters before theorizing. That's my theory.
>
> In NY State, biters have to be quarantined at owner's expense for ten
> days, to make sure rabies doesn't manifest.
>
> Many dog owners seem oblivious to their obnoxious "kids." Dogs
> allowed to jump up on visitors, dogs allowed to poke and sniff
> crotches of visitors (the ladies love this, I'm sure), with owners
> mildly rebuking the dog, the dog paying no attention. In these
> instances, it's obvious who is on which end of the psychological
> leash.
>
> Well-behaved and controlled dogs are another matter entirely.
>
>

[Claire Petersky]

"botfood" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> - DO yell real loud and point right at the dog as the dog approachs.
> something like "no", or "call your dog", "sit", "stay"...

The line I learned from this newsgroup is to yell, "GET OFF THE COUCH!" (or
"...SOFA!" depending on your local dialect.) The dog thinks, "Couch? What
couch? I'm not on a couch!" and this cogitation is enough to slow the dog
enough for you to take off, out of its range. Of course, this works only
with the type that's just interested in chasing bikes, as opposed to the
type that is into fierce territorial defense.

As I wrote to this newsgroup, not that people actually read my blog-like
ramblings about various rides, I recently encountered dogs while riding in
the southwest end of our state. I find that in the greater Puget Sound
region, even in rural areas, leash laws are sufficiently enforced that you
don't have to deal with dogs that often. It's when you stray into more
sparsely populated parts of the state that you have to deal with them. With
one pooch, yelling that the dog was a BAD DOG for running after me seemed to
chasten it into slowing down and for me to make my escape. There was one
fiercesome dog, though, that would have had no problem biting me if it had
been able. Fortunately, I was on a downslope, and it couldn't run at 24+ mph
to catch me.


--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky

Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

[Michael]

bbaka wrote:
>
> Steve Sr. wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for everyone's ideas. I am not going to change my route to
> > solve this problem. If I did I would never ride in any rural areas.
> > The dog is the problem...Not my route!
> >
> > Unfortunately me and my co-worker ride at different paces so we each
> > get the chance to get chased individually usually 5-15 minutes apart!
>
> Why don't you guys arrange to meet up just before the dog zone and then
> you can both try to intimidate the dog. If the owner gets involved in
> some way it is your word (2 people) against his (one person).
> >
> > I guess I didn't make my self clear the first time but the "owner" is
> > "trailer trash" and the area is rural Harnett/Lee County, NC. Forget
> > about getting help from law enforcement or suing the owner. I think I
> > remember something about trying to get water from a stone. It just
> > ain't going to happen.
> >
> > It looks like my options are somewhat limited. I may try some cop
> > strength pepper spray if I can buy some locally which shouldn't be a
> > problem in this area.
>
> If you can buy a Taser and hit the dog with one good shock that should
> discourage the dog for a good long time. I know I can buy one in
> California so you should have no problem.
> >
> > I was also considering the Dog Dazor after finding it on the internet
> > this afternoon. Unfortunately the review that Gary provided the link
> > to was not near as glowing as some of the web sites that were selling
> > the product! I may try to get one of these anyway and "improve" it as
> > in Tim Taylor's - Home improvement. Afterall, I am an engineer and
> > have the technology to do it. Anybody know where I can find
> > information on the frequency hearing range of dogs?
>
> If you are an engineer (analog or digital) you should be able to design
> a good 130 dB blaster at about 20-22 kHz to nail the dog. If you are
> like me though it may hurt your ears, too so you might want to try a
> slightly higher frequency. I am not sure what 130 dB would do to a
> persons ears at 20-22 kHz, and not eager to find out. You would not need
> to get fancy, just blast a square wave into a good super tweeter and
> damn the harmonics, they may add to the effect on the dog. Maybe you
> could mount it to the back of your bike and have an 'anti-dog' button on
> the handlebars. It sounds like a good challenge for an engineer,
> assuming you mean electronics, as I am, and a hopeless sucker for tinkering.
> Bill Baka
> >
> > Whatever we decide we will probably go together when it comes time to
> > "train" this dog with either chemicals or ultrasound.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Steve


Anti-bark devices have been available for some time. All of the ones I've seen
operated on low voltage - on either a wall wart or batteries themselves - so
they could be adapted to mobile operation with minimal fuss.

How effective are they/ I don't know; never played with one. Several years ago
I was on the verge of going into the market with intent to buy because my
upstairs neighbor's two pitbull-mix animals (permanently fenced in out back and
left unattended every day) were driving me nuts with their knee-jerk,
territorial/social barking. Their fenced area was smack up against the window
of my garage, so it would have been convenient to mount the anti-bark device
there. I was sorely tempted. Luckily the dogs' owner moved out before I could
execute.

[D. Dub]

Good god!!! Why are cyclists such pansies?!?!

It's a f'n dog....it's not a cougar nor a bear or something really
"dangerous"...you guys are talking about weapons and pepper spray and
such?!?!? (rolls-eyes)

It's pretty rare to find a truly people aggressive dog.....they like to
chase bikes because it's fun....or b/c they think they re protecting their
territory.

I've had lots of dogs bark at me and/or chase me....I bark back at them :)
...or yell at them to fuk off.

sheeeeesh..... time to get a grip.

[botfood]

- DO report the dogs to sheriff and or animal control so that there is
a documented record of problems.

- DO send the owner a letter making a kind request, inform them that
the dogs have been reported, and if there is an accident or a biting
they will be liable.

- DO yell real loud and point right at the dog as the dog approachs.
something like "no", or "call your dog", "sit", "stay"...

- DO try a water bottle with a little red pepper in it, let it sit
overnight. dogs hate the smell, and if you soak their fur they'll
decide bikes dont taste good. pepper spray is no good from a bike as
the stream is too small and short range.

- DONT kick at a dog, if they catch your foot, they'll pull you off the
bike.

- DONT whack them with a pump, you'll break you pump.

[Bill Sornson]

D. Dub wrote:
> Good god!!! Why are cyclists such pansies?!?!
>
> It's a f'n dog....it's not a cougar nor a bear or something really
> "dangerous"...you guys are talking about weapons and pepper spray and
> such?!?!? (rolls-eyes)

How many cycling routes feature cougars or bears?

> It's pretty rare to find a truly people aggressive dog.....they like
> to chase bikes because it's fun....or b/c they think they re
> protecting their territory.
>
> I've had lots of dogs bark at me and/or chase me....I bark back at
> them :) ..or yell at them to fuk off.

Do they trot off chewing your mangled Achilles tendon? Adorable!

> sheeeeesh..... time to get a grip.

Sure is; why don't you try it?

[frkrygow@yahoo.com]

Geezer Boy wrote:
>
>
> Well-behaved and controlled dogs are another matter entirely.

To quote Stewart Brand, of the Whole Earth Catalog:

"A well trained dog is a joy and a delight. An untrained dog is a
damned nuisance. Most dogs are untrained."

- Frank Krygowski

[Maggie]

Bill Sornson wrote:
>
> How many cycling routes feature cougars or bears?

The one I was on in Nevada. Where a Coyote ate my nieces cat.

Also some of the routes in Pennslyvania where my brother lives. The
first time I rode with him, he told me to watch out for bear, snakes,
deer and a variety of other creatures. Seeing a dog would have been
nice.

Then at my aunts ranch in Wyoming....there are animals I can't even
identify. She has a horse ranch. The horses have to be protected from
the animals that want to kill them.

How the hell do people live out west. I will visit, but give me Joisey
any day.

Maggie (Not a country girl)

[Neil Brooks]

"Maggie" > wrote:

>How the hell do people live out west. I will visit, but give me Joisey
>any day.

Come on. You guys have at least as many ways to die as we do . . .
it's just that ours come from four-legged animals while yours come
from those with two ;-)

[Maggie]

Neil Brooks wrote:
> Come on. You guys have at least as many ways to die as we do . . .
> it's just that ours come from four-legged animals while yours come
> from those with two ;-)


Point taken. ;-)

Mags

[Dan]

wrote:
> To quote Stewart Brand, of the Whole Earth Catalog:
>
> "A well trained dog is a joy and a delight. An untrained dog is a
> damned nuisance. Most dogs are untrained."
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Just like most kids.

Hell, people in general... ;-)

Dan

[Maggie]

Jeff Starr wrote:
> Neil was getting on the guy for insulting "trailer trash", you of all
> the people on this NG, should be sensitive to that.
>
>
> Life is Good!
> Jeff

What the heck is the definition of "trailer trash"? Since I don't know
anyone who lives in a trailer in my area of Jersey....I can't
understand the connection. I know a few people who live in their cars.
But no one who lives in a trailer. A trailer would be a step up. ;-)

Maybe its like those families of ten who live in "pay by the day"
motels. Is it? Or the ones who ride the subway all night.

Maggie

[garmonboezia]

Pat Lamb > wrote in
:

> Forgot which county the OP was from -- do they even
> HAVE animal control there?
>
> Pat
>

OP is in Harnett/Lee County in NC, just south of
Raleigh/Chapel Hill.

In Western North Carolina, where I grew up, there were
dog packs made up of some reprobate dogs and some dogs
truly feral. Random encounters with a pack was not a
big deal as confrontation tactics (ie, "I'm a bigger
and meaner dog than you all.") usually worked. These
packs have all but disappeared here brcause of animal
control.

There are a LOT more pit bulls and a few of those are
abandoned and go feral.

I encounted a pit bull pup up by Needmore, (near
Nantahala Gorge,) on NC28. I had stopped to eat and
rest and was surprised by him. He got my banana (which
he was welcome to,)and wanted the gatorade. :-P I
think he was mostly looking to get adopted but would
have taken any opportunity that presented. I tried the
dismount and block technique as I walked to the next
descent. If he had been full grown and healthy I don't
think the bike barrier would have given him much
trouble. He would've been too strong and fast.

So, I don't have much confidence in those scenarios
which recommend dismounted combat with full-on war
dogs. If you're on the bike and can sprint that's the
best play I think. Just like in American Flyers with
the "training partner".

I agree with the OP's lack of confidence in LEA in the
rural South. Go through the steps so you can say you
did, but don't hold your breath.

Mike


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[Ken]

"Steve Sr." > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> One of the routes that a co-worker and I regularly ride has a house
> (trailer) where two dogs reside. The first is an older yellow lab mix
> and the second is a much younger (and faster!) pit-bull.
>
> Both of these dogs act like they are out for blood although neither
> has caught me or my co-worker yet. But they have come too close for my
> comfort. The road at this point in the ride is slightly uphill making
> it hard to out run them although on a good day the lab gives up fairly
> easily.
>
> The pit bull is a different story. He tries to circle around you and
> get in your way to slow you down. One day he got close enough to my
> left heel that I unclipped and kicked him in the head as hard as I
> could. Boy did he act surprised that his "prey" fought back!
>
> Unfortunately that lesson didn't take. Since then we thought that we
> had him trained by squirting water from our water bottles at him but
> lately even this has begun to loose its effectiveness.
>
> Obviously persuing the owner would be a waste of time so we are
> looking for other suggestions to train the dog not to chase bikes. I
> have thought about trying bitter apple in a squirt gun but have been
> unable to find an appropriate sized squirt gun anymore. I also wonder
> about aiming such a small stream of liquid at a moving target while on
> a moving bicycle.
>
> I am begining to think about pepper spray but it has similar
> limitations in aiming and other consequences if the wind happens to
> blow the wrong way. Another possibility would be a handful of rocks
> thrown simultaneously. I would definitely hit the target but doubt
> that I would cause enough damage to work more than once.
>
> A pellet gun would probably inflict enough pain on the dog that he
> wouldn't forget soon, but I don't have one and don't really want to
> buy one just for this purpose if I can avoid it.
>
> Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?
>
> BTW, this is in a lower income rural area. I have thought about
> talking to the local sheriff but don't think it would do much good or
> work more than once. Even though there is probably a leash law the
> sheriff probably likes dogs more than bikers!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve

Well when I was a younger kid, I used to have the same problem but with an
old Irish Setter, I used to carry a little water pistol filled with vinegar
and water. I remember it worked like a charm.

Ken

[bbaka]

Ken wrote:
> Well when I was a younger kid, I used to have the same problem but with an
> old Irish Setter, I used to carry a little water pistol filled with vinegar
> and water. I remember it worked like a charm.
>
> Ken
>
Maybe, just to be legal you should get one of those CO2 cartridge power
pistols and hit the dog with as many rounds as you can get out of the
cartridge.
Bill Baka

[Thepatriot1775@aol.com]

Steve Sr. wrote:

> Can anybody offer any other suggestions for dealing with the dog?

Yell "NO" at the exact same time you squirt your squirt gun at the
dog. After a while, the dog will associate the word "NO" with getting
squirted or getting kicked and will stop by just hearing the word "NO".
By the way dogs hate being yelled at.
One other good tip about dogs, if you do have to stop your bike
while confronting a dog always keep the bike between you and the dog.

Hope this helps
Me

[bbaka]

Steve Sr. wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2005 22:07:17 -0700, bbaka > wrote:
>
>
>
>>>I was also considering the Dog Dazor after finding it on the internet
>>>this afternoon. Unfortunately the review that Gary provided the link
>>>to was not near as glowing as some of the web sites that were selling
>>>the product! I may try to get one of these anyway and "improve" it as
>>>in Tim Taylor's - Home improvement. Afterall, I am an engineer and
>>>have the technology to do it. Anybody know where I can find
>>>information on the frequency hearing range of dogs?
>>
>>If you are an engineer (analog or digital) you should be able to design
>>a good 130 dB blaster at about 20-22 kHz to nail the dog. If you are
>>like me though it may hurt your ears, too so you might want to try a
>>slightly higher frequency. I am not sure what 130 dB would do to a
>>persons ears at 20-22 kHz, and not eager to find out. You would not need
>>to get fancy, just blast a square wave into a good super tweeter and
>>damn the harmonics, they may add to the effect on the dog. Maybe you
>>could mount it to the back of your bike and have an 'anti-dog' button on
>>the handlebars. It sounds like a good challenge for an engineer,
>>assuming you mean electronics, as I am, and a hopeless sucker for tinkering.
>>Bill Baka
>
>
> Bill,
>
> I think that the issue with these devices would be finding an output
> transducer with high enough efficiency and wide enough bandwidth to
> make a practical battery powered device.
>
> Most transducers that I have seen are are good at one or the other but
> not both of these parameters. There are highly efficient transducers
> made for remote control and burglar alarm applications that are 4KHz
> bandwidth at 40Khz with 105dB output. This frequency is probably too
> high for most dogs to hear plus the narrow frequency allows standing
> waves (peaks and nulls) to form.

You are correct in that, I think. The lowest frequency transducers I
have dealt with were at 150 kHz for fish finders. I don't think much
exists between human hearing and the 150 kHz stuff. Maybe somebody can
prove me wrong, I hope, since I am interested in building a passive dog
eliminator too.
>
> Most audio transducers don't have a response much above 20KHz and
> their efficiency is pretty low. Some I checked were as low as 70 dB/W
> ammnd most electrodynamic tweeters are in the upper 80s to low 90s
> dB/W. It doesn't take much math to determine the number of watts
> required. As I recall a doubling of power only gets you another 3dB in
> output.

I just read an electronics article that said every 10 dB was a 10 times
power change and credited the human ear with about a trillion to one
hearing range. (Up to 20 kHz). I don't know what dogs upper limit is.
>
> I also think it would be a good idea to sweep the frequency rapidly. I
> am guessing that 22-26 or 30 Khz would be a good range. This way you
> are more likely to hit a frequency that the dog can hear and it avoids
> the nulls associated with standing waves.

As with my ears, there are just some pitches that drive me crazy, not
painful, but just plain annoying.

>
> Anybody know where I can find a good ultrasonic driver with these
> characteristics?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve

Good luck with that one. Maybe you could manufacture it and sell it at
bike shops???(;>)
Bill Baka