Finished My first DC

[Ravi]

Hi Guys,
thanks to all you guys for the tips and suggestions for all my
queries over the past year or so... i was able to finish my first Double
Century. I did the Davis Double on May 21st
(http://www.davisbikeclub.org/ddc/2005/index.htm). The weather was
wonderful and the support was excellent.

My Ride Stats:
Distance : 200.4 miles
Total Time : 15:00 hrs (5am - 8pm)
Riding Time : 12:30 hrs
Av. Riding Speed : 15.8 mph
Av. Overall Speed: 13.3 mph

I am not good at writing ride stories, but i will attempt to post one
within a week.

Few things we could have *not* happened:
* Accident on Hwy 16. I am not fully sure about the details Hwy 16 is a
narrow shoulders in some parts and there is traffic near the Cache Creek
Casino. Just less than a mile past the casino, the traffic was blocked
and some cyclist was being airlifted. i hope & pray he/she is ok.
* I heard few other incidents about a rider going off road on the
downhill, but the rider was ok, but trashed his bike.

anyways, it was memorable ride for me.

cheers,
+ravi

[psycholist]

Congratulations, Ravi! That's fantastic.

How do you feel today?

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)
"Ravi" > wrote in message
news:1116877269.132783@sj-nntpcache-3...
> Hi Guys,
> thanks to all you guys for the tips and suggestions for all my queries
> over the past year or so... i was able to finish my first Double Century.
> I did the Davis Double on May 21st
> (http://www.davisbikeclub.org/ddc/2005/index.htm). The weather was
> wonderful and the support was excellent.
>
> My Ride Stats:
> Distance : 200.4 miles
> Total Time : 15:00 hrs (5am - 8pm)
> Riding Time : 12:30 hrs
> Av. Riding Speed : 15.8 mph
> Av. Overall Speed: 13.3 mph
>
> I am not good at writing ride stories, but i will attempt to post one
> within a week.
>
> Few things we could have *not* happened:
> * Accident on Hwy 16. I am not fully sure about the details Hwy 16 is a
> narrow shoulders in some parts and there is traffic near the Cache Creek
> Casino. Just less than a mile past the casino, the traffic was blocked and
> some cyclist was being airlifted. i hope & pray he/she is ok.
> * I heard few other incidents about a rider going off road on the
> downhill, but the rider was ok, but trashed his bike.
>
> anyways, it was memorable ride for me.
>
> cheers,
> +ravi

[Ravi]

psycholist wrote:
>
> Congratulations, Ravi! That's fantastic.
>
> How do you feel today?

I think i have recovered pretty decent. I went out on a 60min (recovery) spin ride y'day
(Sun) and no major pains or aches elsewhere. although the last few miles were slow, i had
sufficient energy at the finish. Cannot exactly say i finished strong bcoz, for the last 7
miles or so, i was at a below my average pace.

thanks,
ravi

> --
> Bob C.
>
> "Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
> T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)
> "Ravi" > wrote in message
> news:1116877269.132783@sj-nntpcache-3...
> > Hi Guys,
> > thanks to all you guys for the tips and suggestions for all my queries
> > over the past year or so... i was able to finish my first Double Century.
> > I did the Davis Double on May 21st
> > (http://www.davisbikeclub.org/ddc/2005/index.htm). The weather was
> > wonderful and the support was excellent.
> >
> > My Ride Stats:
> > Distance : 200.4 miles
> > Total Time : 15:00 hrs (5am - 8pm)
> > Riding Time : 12:30 hrs
> > Av. Riding Speed : 15.8 mph
> > Av. Overall Speed: 13.3 mph
> >
> > I am not good at writing ride stories, but i will attempt to post one
> > within a week.
> >
> > Few things we could have *not* happened:
> > * Accident on Hwy 16. I am not fully sure about the details Hwy 16 is a
> > narrow shoulders in some parts and there is traffic near the Cache Creek
> > Casino. Just less than a mile past the casino, the traffic was blocked and
> > some cyclist was being airlifted. i hope & pray he/she is ok.
> > * I heard few other incidents about a rider going off road on the
> > downhill, but the rider was ok, but trashed his bike.
> >
> > anyways, it was memorable ride for me.
> >
> > cheers,
> > +ravi

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Hi Guys,
> thanks to all you guys for the tips and suggestions for all my queries
> over the past year or so... i was able to finish my first Double Century.
> I did the Davis Double on May 21st

Congrats on your first DC! Something I've never done myself, having been
told (when I was racing) that it was "bad" for you... and in the context of
training, that's probably correct. What keeps me away now is the fear of
mile after mile after mile of riding into a headwind.

Sounds like you zipped along at a pretty good clip. What will you do to top
it? :>)

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Ravi" > wrote in message
news:1116877269.132783@sj-nntpcache-3...
> Hi Guys,
> thanks to all you guys for the tips and suggestions for all my queries
> over the past year or so... i was able to finish my first Double Century.
> I did the Davis Double on May 21st
> (http://www.davisbikeclub.org/ddc/2005/index.htm). The weather was
> wonderful and the support was excellent.
>
> My Ride Stats:
> Distance : 200.4 miles
> Total Time : 15:00 hrs (5am - 8pm)
> Riding Time : 12:30 hrs
> Av. Riding Speed : 15.8 mph
> Av. Overall Speed: 13.3 mph
>
> I am not good at writing ride stories, but i will attempt to post one
> within a week.
>
> Few things we could have *not* happened:
> * Accident on Hwy 16. I am not fully sure about the details Hwy 16 is a
> narrow shoulders in some parts and there is traffic near the Cache Creek
> Casino. Just less than a mile past the casino, the traffic was blocked and
> some cyclist was being airlifted. i hope & pray he/she is ok.
> * I heard few other incidents about a rider going off road on the
> downhill, but the rider was ok, but trashed his bike.
>
> anyways, it was memorable ride for me.
>
> cheers,
> +ravi

[John Michaels]

I would suggest that Ravi look into the Triple Crown.
http://www.caltriplecrown.com/. Doubles are probably the fastest
growing segment in cycling. Numbers involved may not be hugh but rides
are selling out or large percentage gains are being recorded in number
of riders. These rides are excellent ways to see parts of this state in
very special way.

There are few more doubles in Northern California. Given the stats,
might recommend Mt. Tam and Knoxville. The Grand Tour is in a few weeks
in LA and is rated about as flat as Davis.

There are several Long Distance training series in the area with many of
the local clubs featuring their own. I participate in ACTC's LDTR and
we have had a great spring. I know at least 14 riders were signed up
for Davis and I think over 20 did the Solvang Double. On many Sundays
we have had 3 full groups of 20 or more riders pedaling across the Bay area.

I am sorry to hear that someone went down by Cache Creek. I know the
Davis Bike club has concerns about that area and mentions it in their
pre-ride letter. Having been that rider who got taken away in the fancy
wagon with the flashing red lights a few weeks ago during the DMD, I can
also feel the pain of the person, regardless of the reason.

Congrats on the double.

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>Hi Guys,
>> thanks to all you guys for the tips and suggestions for all my queries
>>over the past year or so... i was able to finish my first Double Century.
>>I did the Davis Double on May 21st
>
>
> Congrats on your first DC! Something I've never done myself, having been
> told (when I was racing) that it was "bad" for you... and in the context of
> training, that's probably correct. What keeps me away now is the fear of
> mile after mile after mile of riding into a headwind.
>
> Sounds like you zipped along at a pretty good clip. What will you do to top
> it? :>)
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> "Ravi" > wrote in message
> news:1116877269.132783@sj-nntpcache-3...
>
>>Hi Guys,
>> thanks to all you guys for the tips and suggestions for all my queries
>>over the past year or so... i was able to finish my first Double Century.
>>I did the Davis Double on May 21st
>>(http://www.davisbikeclub.org/ddc/2005/index.htm). The weather was
>>wonderful and the support was excellent.
>>
>>My Ride Stats:
>>Distance : 200.4 miles
>>Total Time : 15:00 hrs (5am - 8pm)
>>Riding Time : 12:30 hrs
>>Av. Riding Speed : 15.8 mph
>>Av. Overall Speed: 13.3 mph
>>
>>I am not good at writing ride stories, but i will attempt to post one
>>within a week.
>>
>>Few things we could have *not* happened:
>>* Accident on Hwy 16. I am not fully sure about the details Hwy 16 is a
>>narrow shoulders in some parts and there is traffic near the Cache Creek
>>Casino. Just less than a mile past the casino, the traffic was blocked and
>>some cyclist was being airlifted. i hope & pray he/she is ok.
>>* I heard few other incidents about a rider going off road on the
>>downhill, but the rider was ok, but trashed his bike.
>>
>>anyways, it was memorable ride for me.
>>
>>cheers,
>>+ravi
>
>
>

[Ravi]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> > Hi Guys,
> > thanks to all you guys for the tips and suggestions for all my queries
> > over the past year or so... i was able to finish my first Double Century.
> > I did the Davis Double on May 21st
>
> Congrats on your first DC! Something I've never done myself, having been
> told (when I was racing) that it was "bad" for you... and in the context of
> training, that's probably correct. What keeps me away now is the fear of
> mile after mile after mile of riding into a headwind.

especially on these flatter routes, there were lots of trains (pacelines) led by tandems.
Although the pacelines can protect you from headwinds, but can be dangerous. There was a
minor accident that i was involved:

On this particular ride, i was on a paceline. A rider (in the paceline), close to the
front of the pack was riding little to the right. The paceline itself was hovering around
the white line (separator between the road and shoulder). The shoulder become dirt -
meaning the rider on the right had to join back in the paceline. When doing so, the guy
behind him didn't call out 'slowing' - or the people ahead of him didn't call out 'gravel
right' - so people start braking. I realized it and slowed and called out, but the rider
on my wheel either was overlappping me or something i felt his wheel immediately on my
left feet. I held onto my handle bars steady and i didn't go down, but the rider on my
back went down and so did another on his back - two guys went down. They had some bruises
but otherwise *thankfully* were ok. I am not exactly sure whose mistake it was, but few
things could have been done to avoid such an accident:

* riders ahead of the pack calling out that there is gravel on the right...
* riders calling slowing
* and riders not overlapping wheel and give enough buffer zone for until
they are sure about the riding behaviour of the person in front...
* call slowing and swinged over to the left and slowed more gradually [this
i should have done :(]

This happened just after the Casino. And i stopped to help both of them dust off and get
back on the bikes. And after we started rolling, in another half a mile, were stopped for
that major accident.

i am beginning to understand more about the dangers of pacelines - not just for yourself,
but the entire pack itself.

> Sounds like you zipped along at a pretty good clip. What will you do to top
> it? :>)

not sure. i have to decide. until now this was the goal. And thanks to you too MikeJ for
selling and fitting me on one your Trek 2100, which has been my trusty stead ( i call it
'silver bullet') for getting me thru the training and eventually onto my maiden DC.

thanks,
ravi

> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> "Ravi" > wrote in message
> news:1116877269.132783@sj-nntpcache-3...
> > Hi Guys,
> > thanks to all you guys for the tips and suggestions for all my queries
> > over the past year or so... i was able to finish my first Double Century.
> > I did the Davis Double on May 21st
> > (http://www.davisbikeclub.org/ddc/2005/index.htm). The weather was
> > wonderful and the support was excellent.
> >
> > My Ride Stats:
> > Distance : 200.4 miles
> > Total Time : 15:00 hrs (5am - 8pm)
> > Riding Time : 12:30 hrs
> > Av. Riding Speed : 15.8 mph
> > Av. Overall Speed: 13.3 mph
> >
> > I am not good at writing ride stories, but i will attempt to post one
> > within a week.
> >
> > Few things we could have *not* happened:
> > * Accident on Hwy 16. I am not fully sure about the details Hwy 16 is a
> > narrow shoulders in some parts and there is traffic near the Cache Creek
> > Casino. Just less than a mile past the casino, the traffic was blocked and
> > some cyclist was being airlifted. i hope & pray he/she is ok.
> > * I heard few other incidents about a rider going off road on the
> > downhill, but the rider was ok, but trashed his bike.
> >
> > anyways, it was memorable ride for me.
> >
> > cheers,
> > +ravi

[Ravi]

John Michaels wrote:
>
> I would suggest that Ravi look into the Triple Crown.
> http://www.caltriplecrown.com/. Doubles are probably the fastest
> growing segment in cycling. Numbers involved may not be hugh but rides
> are selling out or large percentage gains are being recorded in number
> of riders. These rides are excellent ways to see parts of this state in
> very special way.

Thanks John. I am considering that too, now that i have built up this base, i do not want
to loose it ;) so want to maintain it and do some more DCs. actually on this ride, i
talked to a lot of people, and one guy mentioned that he has done about 25 Double and he
is 50 yrs old. Wow i thought. And Davis DC, he is doing it for the 13th time, few other
guys are veteran DC riders. it was nice to be a rookie among such Pros :)

> There are few more doubles in Northern California. Given the stats,
> might recommend Mt. Tam and Knoxville. The Grand Tour is in a few weeks
> in LA and is rated about as flat as Davis.

Grand Tour is certainly in my radar.

> There are several Long Distance training series in the area with many of
> the local clubs featuring their own. I participate in ACTC's LDTR and
> we have had a great spring. I know at least 14 riders were signed up
> for Davis and I think over 20 did the Solvang Double. On many Sundays

in addition to those 14, i too joined them on morning of the event. I am joined ACTC
recently and have been on only one LDTR and i like the gang. In fact, i rode with one of
the LDTR ride leaders - Patrice for most of my ride in Davis. on the last segment, she set
the pace and i just followed her - until the last 10 miles, where i fell out to just soak
in the last miles ;)

thanks,
ravi

> we have had 3 full groups of 20 or more riders pedaling across the Bay area.
>
> I am sorry to hear that someone went down by Cache Creek. I know the
> Davis Bike club has concerns about that area and mentions it in their
> pre-ride letter. Having been that rider who got taken away in the fancy
> wagon with the flashing red lights a few weeks ago during the DMD, I can
> also feel the pain of the person, regardless of the reason.
>
> Congrats on the double.
>
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >>Hi Guys,
> >> thanks to all you guys for the tips and suggestions for all my queries
> >>over the past year or so... i was able to finish my first Double Century.
> >>I did the Davis Double on May 21st
> >
> >
> > Congrats on your first DC! Something I've never done myself, having been
> > told (when I was racing) that it was "bad" for you... and in the context of
> > training, that's probably correct. What keeps me away now is the fear of
> > mile after mile after mile of riding into a headwind.
> >
> > Sounds like you zipped along at a pretty good clip. What will you do to top
> > it? :>)
> >
> > --Mike Jacoubowsky
> > Chain Reaction Bicycles
> > www.ChainReaction.com
> > Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
> >
> > "Ravi" > wrote in message
> > news:1116877269.132783@sj-nntpcache-3...
> >
> >>Hi Guys,
> >> thanks to all you guys for the tips and suggestions for all my queries
> >>over the past year or so... i was able to finish my first Double Century.
> >>I did the Davis Double on May 21st
> >>(http://www.davisbikeclub.org/ddc/2005/index.htm). The weather was
> >>wonderful and the support was excellent.
> >>
> >>My Ride Stats:
> >>Distance : 200.4 miles
> >>Total Time : 15:00 hrs (5am - 8pm)
> >>Riding Time : 12:30 hrs
> >>Av. Riding Speed : 15.8 mph
> >>Av. Overall Speed: 13.3 mph
> >>
> >>I am not good at writing ride stories, but i will attempt to post one
> >>within a week.
> >>
> >>Few things we could have *not* happened:
> >>* Accident on Hwy 16. I am not fully sure about the details Hwy 16 is a
> >>narrow shoulders in some parts and there is traffic near the Cache Creek
> >>Casino. Just less than a mile past the casino, the traffic was blocked and
> >>some cyclist was being airlifted. i hope & pray he/she is ok.
> >>* I heard few other incidents about a rider going off road on the
> >>downhill, but the rider was ok, but trashed his bike.
> >>
> >>anyways, it was memorable ride for me.
> >>
> >>cheers,
> >>+ravi
> >
> >
> >

[Larry Schuldt]

Congratulations, Ravi! I've only done one and regret not having done
more. Keep it up!

larry

[Peter Cole]

Ravi wrote:
>
> i am beginning to understand more about the dangers of pacelines - not just for yourself,
> but the entire pack itself.

I've done many long rides in the double and beyond category. I think
that pace lines, while popular, are extremely dangerous in those
circumstances. I never pace line on those rides, even though I do pace
line rides at least weekly all year. Fatigue, conditions (dark, rain,
etc.) and most of all unfamiliar roads and unfamiliar riders make pace
lines a really bad idea. At the typical speeds of most distance riders,
the pace line benefit isn't much anyway. Pace lines are really for those
elites who can average 20mph on a double and who have plenty of pace
line experience.

[Peter Cole]

Ravi wrote:
>
> Thanks John. I am considering that too, now that i have built up this base, i do not want
> to loose it ;) so want to maintain it and do some more DCs. actually on this ride, i
> talked to a lot of people, and one guy mentioned that he has done about 25 Double and he
> is 50 yrs old. Wow i thought. And Davis DC, he is doing it for the 13th time, few other
> guys are veteran DC riders. it was nice to be a rookie among such Pros :)

Distance riding events are very popular among mature riders. These rides
are as much about mental toughness as physical, and although peak power
declines a little with age, endurance doesn't. On many of these rides,
I'd guess the average age to be around 40, with the 50+ group well
represented and some 60+. There was a guy who completed the
Boston-Montreal-Boston (750 miles, 30K' climbing, 90 hr cutoff) not long
ago, and he was reportedly 75.

[Maggie]

Ravi wrote:
> Hi Guys,
> thanks to all you guys for the tips and suggestions for all my
> queries over the past year or so... i was able to finish my first
Double
> Century. I did the Davis Double on May 21st
> (http://www.davisbikeclub.org/ddc/2005/index.htm). The weather was
> wonderful and the support was excellent.
>
> My Ride Stats:
> Distance : 200.4 miles
> Total Time : 15:00 hrs (5am - 8pm)
> Riding Time : 12:30 hrs
> Av. Riding Speed : 15.8 mph
> Av. Overall Speed: 13.3 mph
>


ALL I CAN SAY IS WOW!!!!!!!

200 miles. I went 25 and thought I was a big shot.

Maggie

[gds]

Peter Cole wrote:

At the typical speeds of most distance riders,
> the pace line benefit isn't much anyway. Pace lines are really for
those
> elites who can average 20mph on a double and who have plenty of pace
> line experience.

That is an interesting perspective.
I have no argument that pacelines full of redlined, inexperienced group
riders are dangerous. But one way of getting your average speed up is
having a group or paceline to help you up your speed for at least part
of the ride.

For long ides I am comfortable on my own at ~16 mph. But with the same
perceived effort I can ride in a group at 19-20 mph. If I have trained
properly for the ride I am not going to start tiring unitl well into
the 2nd half of the ride--so why not take advantage of any
paceline/group that will raise my average over the first 60-70% of the
ride by 3-4 mph?

[Ravi]

Maggie wrote:
>
>
> 200 miles. I went 25 and thought I was a big shot.

you are a BIG SHOT !! couple of yrs ago, 25 was my longest i had
ridden... with proper training and appropriate equipment, any distance
is rideable.

on this ride, i was talking to this guy, he is doing 5 double centuries
in 4 months to celebrate his 50th birthday. When i asked him how many
DCs he has done totally, he thought for a long time and said may be 20
or 25 - he has done so many that he has lost track of the count !! Also
came across some PBP (Paris-Brest-Paris) - thats 1200km - 750miles. But
then that is a different league from us...

for the amt of training you have put in your new max distance of 25 is
great, if you are interested in doing more distances, train for it and
you definitely can do it - just like you just did.

cheers,
+ravi

> Maggie
>

[Booker C. Bense]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article om>,
gds > wrote:
>
>Peter Cole wrote:
>
> At the typical speeds of most distance riders,
>> the pace line benefit isn't much anyway. Pace lines are really for
>those
>> elites who can average 20mph on a double and who have plenty of pace
>> line experience.
>
>That is an interesting perspective.
>I have no argument that pacelines full of redlined, inexperienced group
> riders are dangerous. But one way of getting your average speed up is
>having a group or paceline to help you up your speed for at least part
>of the ride.
>
>For long ides I am comfortable on my own at ~16 mph. But with the same
>perceived effort I can ride in a group at 19-20 mph. If I have trained
>properly for the ride I am not going to start tiring unitl well into
>the 2nd half of the ride--so why not take advantage of any
>paceline/group that will raise my average over the first 60-70% of the
>ride by 3-4 mph?
>

_ How many times have you crashed in a paceline? If you ride in a
group you will eventually crash, most likely with only minor road
rash, but you will crash. The other thing about group crashes is
that the person that screws up almost never goes down, so you pay
the price for other people's mistakes. I think a lot of the
choice here is how comfortable you are with this fact.

_ The danger is more than just tired wobbly riders, it's riders not
knowing the unwritten rules. If you're riding close enough to
get an effective draft, you have very little visiblity of what's
up the road. Effectively, you're relying on the eyes and
alertness of everyone in front of you. This is not that big a
deal if everybody knows the rules, but with random link ups in
a large event you have no idea. Probably the biggest problem
is people swerving for road hazards without warning and this
can happen anytime in the ride.

_ Riding with a paceline of unknown riders is a calculated risk
and thus everybody will have a different answer depending on
their evaluation of the risk.

_ Booker C. Bense


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[Maggie]

Ravi wrote:
> for the amt of training you have put in your new max distance of 25 is
> great, if you are interested in doing more distances, train for it and
> you definitely can do it - just like you just did.
>
> cheers,
> +ravi

You're a sweetheart. Thanks for the encouragement. It is posts like
this that helped me do the 25 miles.

Maggie

I get by with a little help from my friends...

(not the drugs they say John Lennon was referring to, but people
friends.)

[Peter Cole]

gds wrote:

> For long ides I am comfortable on my own at ~16 mph. But with the same
> perceived effort I can ride in a group at 19-20 mph. If I have trained
> properly for the ride I am not going to start tiring unitl well into
> the 2nd half of the ride--so why not take advantage of any
> paceline/group that will raise my average over the first 60-70% of the
> ride by 3-4 mph?

If you can complete 60-70% of a double at 19-20 mph, then you are one of
the elites who would benefit.

Personally, even if I could make that pace for that distance I wouldn't
because I can't bear the thought of having someone's butt occupy my
field of view for that long.

BTW, the numbers you give are overly optimistic. 19->16 mph is a
difference of almost 40% in power. At those speeds, drafting is only
going to get you half of that. I've never done a very long ride in a
pace line, but I've done many in the 30-40 mile range. My best times for
either mode are virtually identical.

Maintaining the <18" wheel separation to get a decent draft is mentally
very taxing to do for several hours. It's also dangerous as hell. I
don't recommend it unless you ride strictly for time.

[gds]

Booker C. Bense wrote:
> > >
>
> _ How many times have you crashed in a paceline?

Never in a paceline. And I'm 60 yo with over 40 years of riding in
pacelines.



If you ride in a
> group you will eventually crash,

Yes probably true. And I have crashed in packs as opposed to pacelines.



> _ The danger is more than just tired wobbly riders, it's riders not
> knowing the unwritten rules. If you're riding close enough to
> get an effective draft, you have very little visiblity of what's
> up the road. Effectively, you're relying on the eyes and
> alertness of everyone in front of you.

All true. But don't you think that expereinced riders figure this out
very quickly and can opt out of the group or pace line if they feel it
is unsafe.We are not discussing races here.

> _ Riding with a paceline of unknown riders is a calculated risk
> and thus everybody will have a different answer depending on
> their evaluation of the risk.


Also true! And that was my point. I've done lots of organized rides and
have always maanged to find compatible groups/pacelines for at least
part of the ride. To me it made it more enjoyable. And if I don't like
the way folks in the group are riding I just go ahead or drop back
depending on the circumstances.

>From my perspective there is a lot less danger in joining a paceline on
a distiance ride like we are discussing than being in a big pack in a
Cat 4 or 5 crit.
>
> _ Booker C. Bense
>
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[gds]

Peter Cole wrote:
>>
> BTW, the numbers you give are overly optimistic. 19->16 mph is a
> difference of almost 40% in power. At those speeds, drafting is only
> going to get you half of that. I've never done a very long ride in a
> pace line, but I've done many in the 30-40 mile range. My best times for
> either mode are virtually identical.
>

I am very poor at understanding the physics of riding. So, I can't even
begin to discuss your 40% power number. But experientially I always
find that a group raises my speed by 3 or 4 mph on an average or flat
course. It may well be that only half that amount comes from any
physical advantage from drafting and the other half comes from the
psychology of working with the group as opposed to slogging long miles
on ones own. I don't discount the importance of the 2nd reason as I
think there is always a large psychological component to performing at
or near one's limit.

For example, while fairly fast on the flats I am a (very) mediocre
climber. However, when on a group ride on a long climb our club does I
can climb a full mph faster with the group (8+ mph vs 7+)than I can
(do!) alone. That is ~15% improvement and at those speeds none of that
improvement comes from drafting so I attribute it all to psychology.
But it is very real and it works over a couple of hours of climbing
so... .

[John Michaels]

Hey guys, can we put a little prespective on this. First time I have
been called elite. Not sure I would agree but it is not my point.

The post is about Davis. Davis is the biggest double as far as number
of riders go in the US. For most of us, it is the first double we do.
What happens in Davis is therefore a bit unique. You have far more
pacelines with inexperienced riders. Many times, you can all of sudden
find yourself pulling 3 or 4 riders that you didn't know were there. It
is the only ride where I recommend you literally call out your every
move just because you don't know who is behind you.

My point is that it is hard to compare Davis with other doubles like the
Terrible Two or DMD. Death Valley is great example of how it really
works. I did the last 100 with a tandem guy who was great. We had
paceline of up to 5 or 6 riders at times. These rides are completely
different. You have very experienced riders and pacelines are a good
thing. Riders talk and you generally know they are there. You do work
together. Most of the time it is for short periods as people work at
different paces. It is not like Davis in the least. Completely
different experience. Many doubles like the Terrible Two only lend
themselves to pacelines for short periods anyway. Hard to paceline when
you are climbing out of Fort Ross.

Peter Cole wrote:

> Ravi wrote:
>
>>
>> i am beginning to understand more about the dangers of pacelines - not
>> just for yourself,
>> but the entire pack itself.
>
>
> I've done many long rides in the double and beyond category. I think
> that pace lines, while popular, are extremely dangerous in those
> circumstances. I never pace line on those rides, even though I do pace
> line rides at least weekly all year. Fatigue, conditions (dark, rain,
> etc.) and most of all unfamiliar roads and unfamiliar riders make pace
> lines a really bad idea. At the typical speeds of most distance riders,
> the pace line benefit isn't much anyway. Pace lines are really for those
> elites who can average 20mph on a double and who have plenty of pace
> line experience.

[[email protected]]

Peter Cole wrote:
> gds wrote:
>
> > For long ides I am comfortable on my own at ~16 mph. But with the same
> > perceived effort I can ride in a group at 19-20 mph. If I have trained
> > properly for the ride I am not going to start tiring unitl well into
> > the 2nd half of the ride--so why not take advantage of any
> > paceline/group that will raise my average over the first 60-70% of the
> > ride by 3-4 mph?
>
> If you can complete 60-70% of a double at 19-20 mph, then you are one of
> the elites who would benefit.
>
> Personally, even if I could make that pace for that distance I wouldn't
> because I can't bear the thought of having someone's butt occupy my
> field of view for that long.

I did my only double when I was about 50. It was a small club ride,
with all but three of us dropping out before the end. My time was
about the same as Ravi's.

I rode almost the entire ride as a three-man team, with the other two
being guys I knew and trusted completely. In that situation, we
rotated the lead very requently.

I'm sure it didn't help as much as a longer pace line, but the view was
much better at least one third of the time!

And I _do_ think it was safer. I agree that I'm _very_ nervous riding
close to unknown riders. (Or even some known ones.)

- Frank Krygowski

[jj]

On 24 May 2005 20:44:23 -0700, wrote:
>
>Peter Cole wrote:
>> gds wrote:
>>
>> > For long ides I am comfortable on my own at ~16 mph. But with the same
>> > perceived effort I can ride in a group at 19-20 mph. If I have trained
>> > properly for the ride I am not going to start tiring unitl well into
>> > the 2nd half of the ride--so why not take advantage of any
>> > paceline/group that will raise my average over the first 60-70% of the
>> > ride by 3-4 mph?
>>
>> If you can complete 60-70% of a double at 19-20 mph, then you are one of
>> the elites who would benefit.
>>
>> Personally, even if I could make that pace for that distance I wouldn't
>> because I can't bear the thought of having someone's butt occupy my
>> field of view for that long.
>
>I did my only double when I was about 50. It was a small club ride,
>with all but three of us dropping out before the end. My time was
>about the same as Ravi's.
>
>I rode almost the entire ride as a three-man team, with the other two
>being guys I knew and trusted completely. In that situation, we
>rotated the lead very requently.
>
>I'm sure it didn't help as much as a longer pace line, but the view was
>much better at least one third of the time!
>
>And I _do_ think it was safer. I agree that I'm _very_ nervous riding
>close to unknown riders. (Or even some known ones.)
>
>- Frank Krygowski

That would seem to require quite amazing concentration (if I'm reading this
correctly). How do you work up to that? Right now after nearly two years of
riding nearly every day, the longest I can concentrate like that, i.e.,
holding it in the LT zone, is about 12 minutes.

jj

[Mark Hickey]

> wrote:

>On 24 May 2005 20:44:23 -0700, wrote:

>>I rode almost the entire ride as a three-man team, with the other two
>>being guys I knew and trusted completely. In that situation, we
>>rotated the lead very requently.
>>
>>I'm sure it didn't help as much as a longer pace line, but the view was
>>much better at least one third of the time!
>>
>>And I _do_ think it was safer. I agree that I'm _very_ nervous riding
>>close to unknown riders. (Or even some known ones.)
>
>That would seem to require quite amazing concentration (if I'm reading this
>correctly). How do you work up to that? Right now after nearly two years of
>riding nearly every day, the longest I can concentrate like that, i.e.,
>holding it in the LT zone, is about 12 minutes.

You have to ride in a pack to learn how to ride in a pack. It's got
to become second nature - if you're "concentrating" on the wheel ahead
of you, you're not there yet. After you've logged enough miles (and
that would be a LOT of miles) in a pack, you'll notice you no longer
have to think so much about your spacing and the pack dynamics - it
will become second nature. You won't spend your rides staring at the
wheel ahead of you, but will be able to spend more time taking in
what's happening in the whole pack, and in the evnironment you're
riding through. That will make you a much safter rider.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

[[email protected]]

jj wrote:
>
>
> That would seem to require quite amazing concentration (if I'm reading this
> correctly). How do you work up to that? Right now after nearly two years of
> riding nearly every day, the longest I can concentrate like that, i.e.,
> holding it in the LT zone, is about 12 minutes.

It helps to have teammates who are VERY steady riders, VERY consistent
in their pace and direction.

I've been riding enthusiastically since 1973. I began learning steady
pacing by helping my wife (and others) through century rides. She'd
let me know if I wasn't steady. But over more than 20 years of riding,
I had lots of practice, both pulling and being pulled.

On that particular ride, I was very motivated, very concentrated. It
wasn't a relaxing ride at all. It was a goal I wanted to achieve.

And again, I'll emphasize: my two buddies were (and are) extremely good
riders. One of them did quite well at Paris-Brest-Paris.

- Frank Krygowski

[Booker C. Bense]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article . com>,
gds > wrote:
>
>
>Booker C. Bense wrote:
>> > >
>>
>> _ How many times have you crashed in a paceline?
>
>Never in a paceline. And I'm 60 yo with over 40 years of riding in
>pacelines.
>
>If you ride in a
>> group you will eventually crash,
>
>Yes probably true. And I have crashed in packs as opposed to pacelines.
>

_ My experience hasn't been so good. I have crashed in
pacelines.

>
>> _ The danger is more than just tired wobbly riders, it's riders not
>> knowing the unwritten rules. If you're riding close enough to
>> get an effective draft, you have very little visiblity of what's
>> up the road. Effectively, you're relying on the eyes and
>> alertness of everyone in front of you.
>
>All true. But don't you think that expereinced riders figure this out
>very quickly and can opt out of the group or pace line if they feel it
>is unsafe.We are not discussing races here.

_ Many people forget that, the impression I got from the first
post was that an inexperienced ( wrt paceline riding ) rider was
asking "why not?".

>
>> _ Riding with a paceline of unknown riders is a calculated risk
>> and thus everybody will have a different answer depending on
>> their evaluation of the risk.
>
>
>Also true! And that was my point. I've done lots of organized rides and
>have always maanged to find compatible groups/pacelines for at least
>part of the ride. To me it made it more enjoyable. And if I don't like
>the way folks in the group are riding I just go ahead or drop back
>depending on the circumstances.
>
>>From my perspective there is a lot less danger in joining a paceline on
>a distiance ride like we are discussing than being in a big pack in a
>Cat 4 or 5 crit.
>>

_ I wouldn't argue with either of those points, but I can also
see the point of avoiding pacelines if you're on the slow side.

_ Booker C. Bense

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[SlowRider]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> Congrats on your first DC! Something I've never done myself, having been
> told (when I was racing) that it was "bad" for you... and in the context of
> training, that's probably correct. What keeps me away now is the fear of
> mile after mile after mile of riding into a headwind.

Why is a DC supposed to be bad for you? Is that for racers only, or is
there something for us mortals to think about, too?


-JR

[PanFan]

John Michaels > wrote in news:jgRke.20971$J12.8844
@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com:

> You have far more
> pacelines with inexperienced riders. Many times, you can all of sudden
> find yourself pulling 3 or 4 riders that you didn't know were there. It
> is the only ride where I recommend you literally call out your every
> move just because you don't know who is behind you.

I was there. I don't think it was 'inexperienced riders.' I mean, how many
newbies are gonna take on a 200 miler for their first ride?

Instead, I think most riders have paceline experience but dispense with the
formalities for this ride. Pacelines form everywhere anytime at the DDC,
especially in the morning on the flats, and "Mind if I follow your wheel?"
and "on your wheel" becomes trivial. If you're out there, you're either in
one or attracting one.

[OnTwoWheels]

"PanFan" > wrote in message
...
> John Michaels > wrote in news:jgRke.20971$J12.8844
> @newssvr14.news.prodigy.com:
>
> > You have far more
> > pacelines with inexperienced riders. Many times, you can all of sudden
> > find yourself pulling 3 or 4 riders that you didn't know were there. It
> > is the only ride where I recommend you literally call out your every
> > move just because you don't know who is behind you.
>
> I was there. I don't think it was 'inexperienced riders.' I mean, how many
> newbies are gonna take on a 200 miler for their first ride?
>
> Instead, I think most riders have paceline experience but dispense with
the
> formalities for this ride. Pacelines form everywhere anytime at the DDC,
> especially in the morning on the flats, and "Mind if I follow your wheel?"
> and "on your wheel" becomes trivial. If you're out there, you're either in
> one or attracting one.

I was there too. It was an awesome ride. There is nothing better than the
rythym of a smooth paceline with everyone working together. In the very
early a.m. it was definately a little sketchy. I experienced several
incidents, but I needed the warm up, and sitting in at 20mph was effortless
and cozy between 5 and 6 am. Then comes a screaming tandem train and time
to go for a ride. That ride lasted till 105 miles usually at 24+mph.

With a couple tandems that could climb, it didn't take too long till there
were just a few singles and everyone left was smooth and safe. After 105
miles I found my self with 4 other singles and that's when it became really
groovy. All of us taking our turns, working hard, solid 22mph pace, all the
way to the end.

I felt a deep bond with perfect strangers. It was basically a non-verbal
relationship and at the end I had to leave quickly. While the normal
aspects of a social relationship were non-existant I felt a deeper
connection with these people than I often do with people I interact with
regularly and verbally. Days afterward and I'm still feeling and
visualizing the experience like a movie that stays with you.

The inner expression is profound and the outward level is pretty gratifiying
as well. It was nice to finish 200 miles in 10 hours and 50 minutes, from
start to finish, including rest stops, overshooting one of the turns and
having a flat tire. Only possible for me because of pacelines.

You do have to be careful, but pacelines on long mass rides can be groovy.

[Leshek]

"Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote in message
. ..
> What keeps me away now is the fear of
> mile after mile after mile of riding into a headwind.

No fear man! Come one of the organized 100 milers or doubles and ride a
paceline... do the work if you can, we will be greatfull (if you don't drop
the rest) or just hang in there... you will be welcome either way...

Leshek

[danM]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> What keeps me away now is the fear of
> mile after mile after mile of riding into a headwind.
>

Besids the ubiquitous pacelines, there's also the Aerobar option (which
doesn't mix well with pacelines, but I found them to be invaluable when
I did the Davis double a couple of years ago). You get at least a
little bit out of the wind, and it's another postion to ride in, which
I found to be all-important after the 150 mile mark.

Nothing was nicer than the tandem I got to sit behind for the middle 30
miles or so, though. Avg speed of 28 mph on the flatter sections, just
resting (or at least, I was just resting -- they were cooking) :-)

Dan

[Bill Lloyd]

A tandem rolling at 22 mph with 17 dweebs with mirrors clinging on the
back is not a paceline. It's just 17 dweebs sucking wheel.

A paceline is where many or most people actually roll through.
Poaching the back of a group and then proclaiming "I was in a
paceline!" is a bunch of crap.

On 2005-05-24 19:18:55 -0700, John Michaels > said:

> Hey guys, can we put a little prespective on this. First time I have
> been called elite. Not sure I would agree but it is not my point.
>
> The post is about Davis. Davis is the biggest double as far as number
> of riders go in the US. For most of us, it is the first double we do.
> What happens in Davis is therefore a bit unique. You have far more
> pacelines with inexperienced riders. Many times, you can all of sudden
> find yourself pulling 3 or 4 riders that you didn't know were there.
> It is the only ride where I recommend you literally call out your every
> move just because you don't know who is behind you.
>
> My point is that it is hard to compare Davis with other doubles like
> the Terrible Two or DMD. Death Valley is great example of how it really
> works. I did the last 100 with a tandem guy who was great. We had
> paceline of up to 5 or 6 riders at times. These rides are completely
> different. You have very experienced riders and pacelines are a good
> thing. Riders talk and you generally know they are there. You do work
> together. Most of the time it is for short periods as people work at
> different paces. It is not like Davis in the least. Completely
> different experience. Many doubles like the Terrible Two only lend
> themselves to pacelines for short periods anyway. Hard to paceline
> when you are climbing out of Fort Ross.
>
> Peter Cole wrote:
>
>> Ravi wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> i am beginning to understand more about the dangers of pacelines - not
>>> just for yourself,
>>> but the entire pack itself.
>>
>>
>> I've done many long rides in the double and beyond category. I think
>> that pace lines, while popular, are extremely dangerous in those
>> circumstances. I never pace line on those rides, even though I do pace
>> line rides at least weekly all year. Fatigue, conditions (dark, rain,
>> etc.) and most of all unfamiliar roads and unfamiliar riders make pace
>> lines a really bad idea. At the typical speeds of most distance riders,
>> the pace line benefit isn't much anyway. Pace lines are really for
>> those elites who can average 20mph on a double and who have plenty of
>> pace line experience.