Should I go clipless?

[dgk]

Another thread got me thinking about this again. I just have standard
pedals on my bike (commuter hybrid Trek 7100) but keep thinking about
going clipless. My feet never slip off the pedals so I guess that the
whole idea is just so that I can pull up as well as push down? That
involves a whole new set of muscles I would think.

Is this a good idea when much of my biking is in Manhattan? I suppose
I'll practice in a deserted parking lot for a while first.

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Wed, 25 May 2005 12:53:47 -0400, dgk
> wrote in message
>:

>Another thread got me thinking about this again. I just have standard
>pedals on my bike (commuter hybrid Trek 7100) but keep thinking about
>going clipless. My feet never slip off the pedals so I guess that the
>whole idea is just so that I can pull up as well as push down? That
>involves a whole new set of muscles I would think.

Yes you should - try it at least. Don't pull up, though, but it does
help you to a much smoother pedalling style because you can power
through more of the crank rotation, and it helps you maintain good
cadence without risk of slipping off.

Not everyone gets on with clipless, but most do.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Will]

I understand the notion. I went to clipless years ago and would feel
odd being "unattached" to the bike these days. I put old fashioned toe
clip pedals on in the winter so I can ride without freezing my feet but
they come off as soon as the temperature gets back into the 40's.

I think the question really is a stop and go issue. If you are stopping
in traffic frequently, the comfort and efficiency is diminished quite a
bit. Another thing to consider is theft. A clipless bike always looks
more expensive. In NYC that might be a bother. I lived there and used a
heat gun to remove decals, strategic duct taping, added klutzy, rusty
fenders to hide the wheels. In short, a stealth bike. Worked.

Will

[Roger Zoul]

dgk wrote:
:: Another thread got me thinking about this again. I just have standard
:: pedals on my bike (commuter hybrid Trek 7100) but keep thinking about
:: going clipless. My feet never slip off the pedals so I guess that the
:: whole idea is just so that I can pull up as well as push down? That
:: involves a whole new set of muscles I would think.

Yeah....more efficient transfer of power to pedals.

:: Is this a good idea when much of my biking is in Manhattan?

Seems scary to me....

I suppose
:: I'll practice in a deserted parking lot for a while first.

Yes. Good luck.

[wafflycat]

"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> Another thread got me thinking about this again. I just have standard
> pedals on my bike (commuter hybrid Trek 7100) but keep thinking about
> going clipless. My feet never slip off the pedals so I guess that the
> whole idea is just so that I can pull up as well as push down? That
> involves a whole new set of muscles I would think.
>
> Is this a good idea when much of my biking is in Manhattan? I suppose
> I'll practice in a deserted parking lot for a while first.

I've never regretted going clipless, even though I had the obligatory spill
by forgetting to unclip before stoppng ;-)

Once I got used to clipping in and out, which happened quicker than I
thought it would, it beame second nature. I have no problem clipping in and
out as necessary in traffic. The advantages? Well I too never used to slip
off pedals when I used ordinary platform pedals, but clipless gives the same
speed for less effort - as you are effectively pulling on the upstroke as
well as pushing on the down stroke - and my knees were much appreciative of
the change to clipless. Aching knees disappeared overnight for me.

I find clipless make it easier to cycle up any sort of incline - it's just
more efficient & effective pedalling.

I would not willingly go back to platform pedals.

I use Look pedals, by the way.

Cheers, helen s

[psycholist]

"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> Another thread got me thinking about this again. I just have standard
> pedals on my bike (commuter hybrid Trek 7100) but keep thinking about
> going clipless. My feet never slip off the pedals so I guess that the
> whole idea is just so that I can pull up as well as push down? That
> involves a whole new set of muscles I would think.
>
> Is this a good idea when much of my biking is in Manhattan? I suppose
> I'll practice in a deserted parking lot for a while first.

Just so you know ... it's not about pushing down and/or pulling up. It's
about spinning circles (or as close to it as possible). That's the most
efficient way to pedal. Remember the old locomotive engines that had a
large wheel turned by the steam engine and the large wheel was attached by
steel rods that drove smaller wheels out in front of it. Well, think of
your hip as the large driving wheel. A good, efficient spin comes from the
hip.

Pedaling through Manhattan. Hmmm. There are some strap devices that
mountain bikers who didn't want to be clipped in have used. You might
consider something like this that would attach to your existing pedal. That
way you could get a feel for being attached to the pedals without the larger
investment. I don't recall who made them, but they attached diagonally
across the pedal.
--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[Peter Cole]

dgk wrote:
> Another thread got me thinking about this again. I just have standard
> pedals on my bike (commuter hybrid Trek 7100) but keep thinking about
> going clipless. My feet never slip off the pedals so I guess that the
> whole idea is just so that I can pull up as well as push down? That
> involves a whole new set of muscles I would think.

Not the source of efficiency with clipless pedals, you don't want to
"pull up", it doesn't help anything, it just puts you at greater risk of
a pull out.

The beauty of clipless pedals is that you don't have to expend any
energy or concentration to keep your feet on, and aligned to, the
pedals. That's not a lot of effort for low speed cycling, so the benefit
really increases with intensity. If you pedal hard and fast you should
have some sort of foot retention, clipless is, for most people, easier
and more comfortable than clips and straps.


> Is this a good idea when much of my biking is in Manhattan? I suppose
> I'll practice in a deserted parking lot for a while first.

Practice is a good idea, and some types of pedals are better for stop &
go urban riding and the inevitable walking. SPD (Shimano or clone) is a
good start.

[bfd]

You can always go "clipless" the Rivendell-way:

http://www.rivbike.com/webalog/pedals_clips_straps/14020.html

[dgk]

On 25 May 2005 11:27:11 -0700, "bfd" > wrote:

>You can always go "clipless" the Rivendell-way:
>
>http://www.rivbike.com/webalog/pedals_clips_straps/14020.html

How do those work?

[dgk]

On 25 May 2005 10:25:49 -0700, "Will" >
wrote:

>
>I understand the notion. I went to clipless years ago and would feel
>odd being "unattached" to the bike these days. I put old fashioned toe
>clip pedals on in the winter so I can ride without freezing my feet but
>they come off as soon as the temperature gets back into the 40's.
>
>I think the question really is a stop and go issue. If you are stopping
>in traffic frequently, the comfort and efficiency is diminished quite a
>bit. Another thing to consider is theft. A clipless bike always looks
>more expensive. In NYC that might be a bother. I lived there and used a
>heat gun to remove decals, strategic duct taping, added klutzy, rusty
>fenders to hide the wheels. In short, a stealth bike. Worked.
>
>Will

Theft is a problem but I anchor the bike pretty well and almost always
in one place with guards nearby.

I have a bike that had the cages once. I couldn't get my foot out when
I had to and by the time I did get it out it was just in time to break
my ankle. Then again, it isn't likely that I'll be in a 6 inch mud
puddle on 3rd Avenue. The surgeon suggested that I find somewhere else
to bike that doesn't have big mud puddles. Smart man.

[Collin]

wafflycat wrote:
>
> "dgk" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Another thread got me thinking about this again. I just have standard
>> pedals on my bike (commuter hybrid Trek 7100) but keep thinking about
>> going clipless. My feet never slip off the pedals so I guess that the
>> whole idea is just so that I can pull up as well as push down? That
>> involves a whole new set of muscles I would think.
>>
>> Is this a good idea when much of my biking is in Manhattan? I suppose
>> I'll practice in a deserted parking lot for a while first.
>
>
> I've never regretted going clipless, even though I had the obligatory
> spill by forgetting to unclip before stoppng ;-)
>
> Once I got used to clipping in and out, which happened quicker than I
> thought it would, it beame second nature. I have no problem clipping in
> and out as necessary in traffic. The advantages? Well I too never used
> to slip off pedals when I used ordinary platform pedals, but clipless
> gives the same speed for less effort - as you are effectively pulling on
> the upstroke as well as pushing on the down stroke - and my knees were
> much appreciative of the change to clipless. Aching knees disappeared
> overnight for me.
>
> I find clipless make it easier to cycle up any sort of incline - it's
> just more efficient & effective pedalling.
I concur. In short, you can haul ass uphill and downhill ( I ride a
fixie) without worrying about your feet coming off.

And you WILL fall over the first time you try to clip out, so be sure to
do it in front of people you don't know to give them some comic relief.
But after a day or two of practice clipping out is easy.

>
> I would not willingly go back to platform pedals.
>
> I use Look pedals, by the way.
>
> Cheers, helen s
>

[Collin]

psycholist wrote:
> "dgk" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Another thread got me thinking about this again. I just have standard
>>pedals on my bike (commuter hybrid Trek 7100) but keep thinking about
>>going clipless. My feet never slip off the pedals so I guess that the
>>whole idea is just so that I can pull up as well as push down? That
>>involves a whole new set of muscles I would think.
>>
>>Is this a good idea when much of my biking is in Manhattan? I suppose
>>I'll practice in a deserted parking lot for a while first.
>
>
> Just so you know ... it's not about pushing down and/or pulling up. It's
> about spinning circles (or as close to it as possible). That's the most
> efficient way to pedal. Remember the old locomotive engines that had a
> large wheel turned by the steam engine and the large wheel was attached by
> steel rods that drove smaller wheels out in front of it. Well, think of
> your hip as the large driving wheel. A good, efficient spin comes from the
> hip.
>
> Pedaling through Manhattan. Hmmm. There are some strap devices that
> mountain bikers who didn't want to be clipped in have used. You might
> consider something like this that would attach to your existing pedal. That
> way you could get a feel for being attached to the pedals without the larger
> investment. I don't recall who made them, but they attached diagonally
> across the pedal.
PowerGrips http://www.powergrips.com Never tried em tho.

[Jeff Starr]

On Wed, 25 May 2005 22:09:15 -0500, Collin > wrote:


>And you WILL fall over the first time you try to clip out, so be sure to
>do it in front of people you don't know to give them some comic relief.
>But after a day or two of practice clipping out is easy.
>
Correction, you might fall. Not everybody falls, I never have, because
I forgot to unclip.
Pay attention and unclip early, while learning. Eventually it becomes
second nature.


Life is Good!
Jeff

[RobD]

Go for it , but master a track stand first.
That way you have options if you hve to stop at a puddle or lights.
also only fit on for a few days, say the right pedal and toe down with the
left while you practice
real time clipping and unclippping of the right foot in trafic/ trail.
rob d



"dgk" > wrote in message
...
> Another thread got me thinking about this again. I just have standard
> pedals on my bike (commuter hybrid Trek 7100) but keep thinking about
> going clipless. My feet never slip off the pedals so I guess that the
> whole idea is just so that I can pull up as well as push down? That
> involves a whole new set of muscles I would think.
>
> Is this a good idea when much of my biking is in Manhattan? I suppose
> I'll practice in a deserted parking lot for a while first.

[wafflycat]

"Jeff Starr" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 25 May 2005 22:09:15 -0500, Collin > wrote:
>
>
>>And you WILL fall over the first time you try to clip out, so be sure to
>>do it in front of people you don't know to give them some comic relief.
>>But after a day or two of practice clipping out is easy.
>>
> Correction, you might fall. Not everybody falls, I never have, because
> I forgot to unclip.

Smart ass ;-)

> Pay attention and unclip early, while learning. Eventually it becomes
> second nature.
>

For a while, when I first went into clipless, I was followed by the sound of
husband & offspring yelling "Unclip!" every time I got near any situation
unclipping was likely to be required. Bit like a leper yelling "Unclean!"
;-)

Cheers, helen s


>
> Life is Good!
> Jeff

[wafflycat]

"RobD" > wrote in message
...
> Go for it , but master a track stand first.
> That way you have options if you hve to stop at a puddle or lights.
> also only fit on for a few days, say the right pedal and toe down with
> the
> left while you practice
> real time clipping and unclippping of the right foot in trafic/ trail.
> rob d
>
>

Have to say I cannot track stand and have never needed the ability to do so
in long, almost daily use of clipless pedals. Once I got the initial fall
(in private by home) out of the way, where I discovered the advantage of
having a large, well-padded rear end. Glad I did it then and not now, as my
rear is considerably smaller & less less padded ;-)

Cheers, helen s

[Peter Cole]

psycholist wrote:
> Just so you know ... it's not about pushing down and/or pulling up. It's
> about spinning circles (or as close to it as possible). That's the most
> efficient way to pedal. Remember the old locomotive engines that had a
> large wheel turned by the steam engine and the large wheel was attached by
> steel rods that drove smaller wheels out in front of it. Well, think of
> your hip as the large driving wheel. A good, efficient spin comes from the
> hip.

This seems a logical theory but it isn't supported by science.



> Pedaling through Manhattan. Hmmm. There are some strap devices that
> mountain bikers who didn't want to be clipped in have used. You might
> consider something like this that would attach to your existing pedal. That
> way you could get a feel for being attached to the pedals without the larger
> investment. I don't recall who made them, but they attached diagonally
> across the pedal.

Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.

[psycholist]

"Peter Cole" > wrote in message
...
> psycholist wrote:
>> Just so you know ... it's not about pushing down and/or pulling up. It's
>> about spinning circles (or as close to it as possible). That's the most
>> efficient way to pedal. Remember the old locomotive engines that had a
>> large wheel turned by the steam engine and the large wheel was attached
>> by steel rods that drove smaller wheels out in front of it. Well, think
>> of your hip as the large driving wheel. A good, efficient spin comes
>> from the hip.
>
> This seems a logical theory but it isn't supported by science.

It's not a theory. It's an analogy.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[Peter Cole]

psycholist wrote:
> "Peter Cole" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>psycholist wrote:
>>
>>>Just so you know ... it's not about pushing down and/or pulling up. It's
>>>about spinning circles (or as close to it as possible). That's the most
>>>efficient way to pedal. Remember the old locomotive engines that had a
>>>large wheel turned by the steam engine and the large wheel was attached
>>>by steel rods that drove smaller wheels out in front of it. Well, think
>>>of your hip as the large driving wheel. A good, efficient spin comes
>>>from the hip.
>>
>>This seems a logical theory but it isn't supported by science.
>
>
> It's not a theory. It's an analogy.
>

I was referring to "pedaling in circles", not locomotives. I didn't
follow the analogy, either.

[wle]

if your gears are not low enough for some hills,
you will find that pulling up definitely
makes you able to go up hills that you just can;t go up just by
pushing down.

and if you like to pedal at low rpms, contrary to current spinning
religion,
you can pull and it helps.

wle.

[Bill Sornson]

Peter Cole wrote:
> psycholist wrote:
>> "Peter Cole" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> psycholist wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just so you know ... it's not about pushing down and/or pulling
>>>> up. It's about spinning circles (or as close to it as possible).
>>>> That's the most efficient way to pedal. Remember the old
>>>> locomotive engines that had a large wheel turned by the steam
>>>> engine and the large wheel was attached by steel rods that drove
>>>> smaller wheels out in front of it. Well, think of your hip as the
>>>> large driving wheel. A good, efficient spin comes from the hip.
>>>
>>> This seems a logical theory but it isn't supported by science.
>>
>>
>> It's not a theory. It's an analogy.
>>
>
> I was referring to "pedaling in circles", not locomotives. I didn't
> follow the analogy, either.


Except for those intermittent "Chooo, choooo!" whistles, Bob's a fun riding
partner.

HTH, BS

[Zoot Katz]

Thu, 26 May 2005 07:25:54 -0400, >,
Peter Cole > wrote:

>
>Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
>dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.

How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?

The release action is the same twisting motion as clipless pedals. So,
even switching back and forth between PowerGrips and clipless isn't as
potentially dangerous as switching between clips & straps and
clipless.

I got into trouble with PowerGrips while I was using clips & straps on
all the other bikes. I was still trying to twist out when I hit the
ground badly straining my leg. After that I had to switch back to
clips & straps because I couldn't twist my leg for at least a month.
For that, I wouldn't fault the PowerGrips as being dangerous.
--
zk

[Booker C. Bense]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article >,
dgk > wrote:
>On 25 May 2005 10:25:49 -0700, "Will" >
>wrote:
>
>>
>>I understand the notion. I went to clipless years ago and would feel
>>odd being "unattached" to the bike these days. I put old fashioned toe
>>clip pedals on in the winter so I can ride without freezing my feet but
>>they come off as soon as the temperature gets back into the 40's.
>>
>>I think the question really is a stop and go issue. If you are stopping
>>in traffic frequently, the comfort and efficiency is diminished quite a
>>bit.

>
>I have a bike that had the cages once. I couldn't get my foot out when
>I had to and by the time I did get it out it was just in time to break
>my ankle.

_ There is a learning curve, but once you get to the point where
getting out of the pedals becomes an unconcious reaction,
frequent stopping and starting is not an issue. Pedals with
a bit more platform help with this as well. In an emergency
clipless are much better than cages, if you've practiced to
the point where it's automatic.

_ I think lightly treaded MTB shoes and SPD type pedals are the
way to go. I like the various Crank Brothers pedals a lot, and
Shimano makes some relatively cheap MTB shoes ( M-20 and M-30 )
that are great for commuting.

_ Booker C. Bense

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[Peter Cole]

Zoot Katz wrote:
> Thu, 26 May 2005 07:25:54 -0400, >,
> Peter Cole > wrote:
>
>
>>Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
>>dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.
>
>
> How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?
>
> The release action is the same twisting motion as clipless pedals. So,
> even switching back and forth between PowerGrips and clipless isn't as
> potentially dangerous as switching between clips & straps and
> clipless.

Yes, except twisting heel to the outside tightens Powergrips, unlike
clipless which release either way. I'm very wary of pedals that can trap
your foot in a twisting fall, a friend just had a plate and several
screws installed, his leg will never be the same.

[Booker C. Bense]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article >,
Zoot Katz > wrote:
>Thu, 26 May 2005 07:25:54 -0400, >,
>Peter Cole > wrote:
>
>>
>>Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
>>dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.
>
>How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?

_ Peter says that every time they come up. I really don't
understand why either. I think they fall somewhere in between
clips and straps and clipless pedals. Getting out can be more
complicated than clipless due interactions between pedal and
shoe tred, however it's much simpler than clips and straps.

>
>The release action is the same twisting motion as clipless pedals. So,
>even switching back and forth between PowerGrips and clipless isn't as
>potentially dangerous as switching between clips & straps and
>clipless.

_ Well, you can release by twisting in the other direction, like
with clipless, but I'm not sure how much that matters.

>
>I got into trouble with PowerGrips while I was using clips & straps on
>all the other bikes. I was still trying to twist out when I hit the
>ground badly straining my leg. After that I had to switch back to
>clips & straps because I couldn't twist my leg for at least a month.
>For that, I wouldn't fault the PowerGrips as being dangerous.

_ In my experience, they work pretty well and are very easy to
get in / out of if you're used to clipless already. The do take
a bit of adjusting every time you change shoes.

_ Booker C. Bense

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[Booker C. Bense]

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In article >,
Peter Cole > wrote:
>Zoot Katz wrote:
>> Thu, 26 May 2005 07:25:54 -0400, >,
>> Peter Cole > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
>>>dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.
>>
>>
>> How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?
>>
>> The release action is the same twisting motion as clipless pedals. So,
>> even switching back and forth between PowerGrips and clipless isn't as
>> potentially dangerous as switching between clips & straps and
>> clipless.
>
>Yes, except twisting heel to the outside tightens Powergrips, unlike
>clipless which release either way. I'm very wary of pedals that can trap
>your foot in a twisting fall, a friend just had a plate and several
>screws installed, his leg will never be the same.

_ Don't you mean inside? If twisting outwards tightens the
Powergrips, you have them installed incorrectly.

_ Booker C. Bense


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[Zoot Katz]

Thu, 26 May 2005 13:25:18 -0400, >,
Peter Cole > wrote:

>Zoot Katz wrote:
>> Peter Cole > wrote:
>>
>>>Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
>>>dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.
>>
>> How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?
>>
>> The release action is the same twisting motion as clipless pedals. So,
>> even switching back and forth between PowerGrips and clipless isn't as
>> potentially dangerous as switching between clips & straps and
>> clipless.
>
>Yes, except twisting heel to the outside tightens Powergrips, unlike
>clipless which release either way.

Vice-versa. Outside releases.

Discovering that my clipless pedals released by twisting either way
was a fortuitously timed pleasant surprise. . . Maybe, since my leg
broke while fully disengaged from the pedal.

> I'm very wary of pedals that can trap
>your foot in a twisting fall, a friend just had a plate and several
>screws installed, his leg will never be the same.

I'm already thinking that one of the screws in my leg is going to have
to be removed. Now that I'm putting partial weight on that leg I can
feel the screws and one of them feels wrong.
--
zk

[bfd]

The "rivendell-way" is to use these pedals without any type of
retention. Grant Petersen argues that restraining the foot is
"overblown" and not necessary as it may actually be detrimental as you
don't get to use all of your muscles when say, climbing. He believes
that he is just as fast climbing without retention as with. If you
must be restrainted, he recommends normal toe clips and straps or use
"power grips":

http://www.rivbike.com/webalog/pedals_clips_straps/14046.html

Grant and the rivendell-way is definitely retro. For commuting and
street use, I use the MKS pedals without any restraints. It works well.
However, for longer distances, centuries and any type of long climbs,
give me my clipless pedals (Speedplays!)

[Peter Cole]

Zoot Katz wrote:
> Thu, 26 May 2005 13:25:18 -0400, >,
> Peter Cole > wrote:
>
>
>>Zoot Katz wrote:
>>
>>>Peter Cole > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
>>>>dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.
>>>
>>>How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?
>>>
>>>The release action is the same twisting motion as clipless pedals. So,
>>>even switching back and forth between PowerGrips and clipless isn't as
>>>potentially dangerous as switching between clips & straps and
>>>clipless.
>>
>>Yes, except twisting heel to the outside tightens Powergrips, unlike
>>clipless which release either way.
>
>
> Vice-versa. Outside releases.
>
> Discovering that my clipless pedals released by twisting either way
> was a fortuitously timed pleasant surprise. . . Maybe, since my leg
> broke while fully disengaged from the pedal.
>
>
>>I'm very wary of pedals that can trap
>>your foot in a twisting fall, a friend just had a plate and several
>>screws installed, his leg will never be the same.
>
>
> I'm already thinking that one of the screws in my leg is going to have
> to be removed. Now that I'm putting partial weight on that leg I can
> feel the screws and one of them feels wrong.

I hope you rehab better than my friend. He had significant nerve damage
and is a long way from full strength in that leg after many months of PT.

[Peter Cole]

Booker C. Bense wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In article >,
> Zoot Katz > wrote:
>
>>Thu, 26 May 2005 07:25:54 -0400, >,
>>Peter Cole > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Those are PowerGrips. I used them for a while. I think they are very
>>>dangerous. I wouldn't recommend them.
>>
>>How so? What would make them more dangerous than clipless pedals?
>
>
> _ Peter says that every time they come up. I really don't
> understand why either.

I do a lot of off-road riding. I've taken dozens of hard falls in every
conceivable way: over the bars, backwards, high side, front washout,
etc. I've broken ribs twice, had many bad contusions, but I've never
trapped a foot. I'm really conservative about that. I don't like using
any foot attachment method that won't release reliably. With good
products available so cheaply I don't see any reason to take chances,
either. People who ride exclusively on the road probably don't fall
enough to appreciate the dangers. I would never use straps or Powergrips
again for off-road riding, so I can't see the justification for using
them on the road, either.

[Zoot Katz]

Thu, 26 May 2005 17:30:14 +0000 (UTC),
>, Booker C. Bense
tanford.edu> wrote
re: PowerGrips

>_ In my experience, they work pretty well and are very easy to
>get in / out of if you're used to clipless already. The do take
>a bit of adjusting every time you change shoes.

I had them on the joe-bike I was riding most frequently and fell one
day that I'd switched back to a bike with toe clips. After that I put
the toe clips back on because my leg couldn't rotate. When I replaced
the toe-clips on the other bikes with clipless, I put the PowerGrips
back on joe-bike.
--
zk

[Zoot Katz]

Thu, 26 May 2005 14:55:04 -0400, >,
Peter Cole > wrote:

>> I'm already thinking that one of the screws in my leg is going to have
>> to be removed. Now that I'm putting partial weight on that leg I can
>> feel the screws and one of them feels wrong.
>
>I hope you rehab better than my friend. He had significant nerve damage
>and is a long way from full strength in that leg after many months of PT.

Thanks. As you may know, uncompensated injuries heal faster. I don't
have a lawyer telling me I'm crippled so I expect to progress rapidly.

I'm afraid the sprained ankle is going to be slower healing than the
broken bone though. At least that won't keep me off the bike. I'm sure
I'll be riding before I done limping.
--
zk

[Leo Lichtman]

My experience with Power Grips: The tightness which feels okay at the
beginning of a ride may interfere with circulation an hour later. The
tightness changes with the position of your heels, so, as the ride
progresses, you may find yourself riding with your feet pointed toe-in.

[Mike Kruger]

"Bill Sornson" > wrote in
message ...
> Peter Cole wrote:
> > psycholist wrote:
> >> "Peter Cole" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> psycholist wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Just so you know ... it's not about pushing down and/or
pulling
> >>>> up. It's about spinning circles (or as close to it as
possible).
> >>>> That's the most efficient way to pedal. Remember the
old
> >>>> locomotive engines that had a large wheel turned by the
steam
> >>>> engine and the large wheel was attached by steel rods
that drove
> >>>> smaller wheels out in front of it. Well, think of your
hip as the
> >>>> large driving wheel. A good, efficient spin comes from
the hip.
> >>>
> >>> This seems a logical theory but it isn't supported by
science.
> >>
> >>
> >> It's not a theory. It's an analogy.
> >>
> >
> > I was referring to "pedaling in circles", not locomotives.
I didn't
> > follow the analogy, either.
>
>
> Except for those intermittent "Chooo, choooo!" whistles,
Bob's a fun riding
> partner.
>
I bet he's one of those guys who's always on "training" rides.

[[email protected]]

Peter Cole wrote:
>
> I do a lot of off-road riding. I've taken dozens of hard falls in every
> conceivable way: over the bars, backwards, high side, front washout,
> etc. I've broken ribs twice, had many bad contusions....


People who ride exclusively on the road probably don't fall
> enough to appreciate the dangers. I would never use straps or Powergrips
> again for off-road riding, so I can't see the justification for using
> them on the road, either.

:-) Part of the justification for using them on the road may be that
on the road, people don't fall very often!

- Frank Krygowski

[[email protected]]

dgk wrote:
> Another thread got me thinking about this again. I just have standard
> pedals on my bike (commuter hybrid Trek 7100) but keep thinking about
> going clipless. My feet never slip off the pedals so I guess that the
> whole idea is just so that I can pull up as well as push down? That
> involves a whole new set of muscles I would think.

I mostly use toe clips and straps. With those, I can pull up a bit
when desired, but it makes sense only for the first few strokes of a
sprint-from-standing-start situation. People who have measured pedal
forces have found that riders who swear they pull up are not doing so;
they just reduce the downward-at-the-rear force a bit.

Most people like clipless a lot when they convert. Many people feel it
makes them faster. I don't know if this has been proven, though.

Downsides? No more cycling in tennies, dress shoes, or whatever you
have on when you'd like to quickly jump on the bike. You'll ride only
in one pair of shoes, unless you get one of those kludge systems to
temporarily re-convert to toe-clips.

You _will_ fall. Maybe one person in a hundred avoids it.

And watch for knee problems. Some people have had their knees injured
by cleats that weren't adjusted just so. With bare pedals or toe clips
(assuming no cleats) this is much less likely.


> Is this a good idea when much of my biking is in Manhattan? I suppose
> I'll practice in a deserted parking lot for a while first.

Hmm. You might want to ride Manhattan's most quiet, peaceful,
traffic-free streets for a while! ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

[Bill]

wrote:

>
>
> Peter Cole wrote:
>>
>> I do a lot of off-road riding. I've taken dozens of hard falls in every
>> conceivable way: over the bars, backwards, high side, front washout,
>> etc. I've broken ribs twice, had many bad contusions....
>
>
> People who ride exclusively on the road probably don't fall
>> enough to appreciate the dangers. I would never use straps or Powergrips
>> again for off-road riding, so I can't see the justification for using
>> them on the road, either.
>
> :-) Part of the justification for using them on the road may be that
> on the road, people don't fall very often!
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Yes, but then you are kind of stuck on the road, and all that pavement has
to get boring at some point. It makes cycling kind of a dress up game that
you have to get ready for and not just do spontaneously.
Bill Baka

[Jeff Starr]

On Thu, 26 May 2005 20:54:12 -0700, Bill > wrote:


>>
>> :-) Part of the justification for using them on the road may be that
>> on the road, people don't fall very often!
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>Yes, but then you are kind of stuck on the road, and all that pavement has
>to get boring at some point. It makes cycling kind of a dress up game that
>you have to get ready for and not just do spontaneously.
>Bill Baka

Well, loading 4 gallons of water on your bike isn't something you just
do spontaneously either.

This must be our daily reminder of what a moron you are. Mission
accomplished!


Life is Good!
Jeff

[Bill Sornson]

Mike Kruger wrote:
> "Bill Sornson" > wrote in
> message ...
>> Peter Cole wrote:
>>> psycholist wrote:
>>>> "Peter Cole" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> psycholist wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just so you know ... it's not about pushing down and/or pulling
>>>>>> up. It's about spinning circles (or as close to it as possible).
>>>>>> That's the most efficient way to pedal. Remember the old
>>>>>> locomotive engines that had a large wheel turned by the steam
>>>>>> engine and the large wheel was attached by steel rods that drove
>>>>>> smaller wheels out in front of it. Well, think of your hip as
>>>>>> the large driving wheel. A good, efficient spin comes from the
>>>>>> hip.
>>>>>
>>>>> This seems a logical theory but it isn't supported by science.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not a theory. It's an analogy.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I was referring to "pedaling in circles", not locomotives. I didn't
>>> follow the analogy, either.
>>
>>
>> Except for those intermittent "Chooo, choooo!" whistles, Bob's a fun
>> riding partner.
>>
> I bet he's one of those guys who's always on "training" rides.

You're really off track with... aw, forget it.

(Someone kick 'im in the caboose before we're all...steamed.)

[Bill Sornson]

Bill wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Peter Cole wrote:
>>>
>>> I do a lot of off-road riding. I've taken dozens of hard falls in
>>> every conceivable way: over the bars, backwards, high side, front
>>> washout, etc. I've broken ribs twice, had many bad contusions....
>>
>>
>> People who ride exclusively on the road probably don't fall
>>> enough to appreciate the dangers. I would never use straps or
>>> Powergrips again for off-road riding, so I can't see the
>>> justification for using them on the road, either.
>>
>> :-) Part of the justification for using them on the road may be that
>> on the road, people don't fall very often!
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Yes, but then you are kind of stuck on the road, and all that
> pavement has to get boring at some point. It makes cycling kind of a
> dress up game that you have to get ready for and not just do
> spontaneously.

Just so you know, Bill, almost all off-road cyclists (mountain bikers) use
either clipless pedals or some sort of strap/cage attachment device. Power
straps ARE (were) dangerous for newbies, but still better than plain
platform pedals. The need for "bursts" of power is often greater on trails
than it is on roads.

Bill "got the scars to back it up" S.

[Michael Warner]

On Wed, 25 May 2005 18:44:29 +0100, wafflycat wrote:

> I've never regretted going clipless, even though I had the obligatory spill
> by forgetting to unclip before stoppng ;-)

That never happened to me. I must be doing it wrong :-)

Perhaps the funniest thing that ever happened to me while riding was
when a friend rode up to where I was waiting at the end of a long ride.
She opened her mouth to speak and, having simply forgotten to unclip
due to exhaustion, promptly fell over with a look of surprise to go with
the open mouth :-)

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

[Michael Warner]

On Thu, 26 May 2005 20:54:12 -0700, Bill wrote:

> Yes, but then you are kind of stuck on the road, and all that pavement has
> to get boring at some point. It makes cycling kind of a dress up game that
> you have to get ready for and not just do spontaneously.

If you live in the city it's not exactly spontaneous (or free) to load your
mountain bike into the car and drive to a trail, is it? And you still
presumably change clothes, although not into that "girly man" lycra gear
that you seem so fixated on.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

[wafflycat]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> And watch for knee problems. Some people have had their knees injured
> by cleats that weren't adjusted just so. With bare pedals or toe clips
> (assuming no cleats) this is much less likely.
>

My experience was definitely the other way round. On standard platform
pedals my knees *always* ached. Changing to clipless was instant change to
non-aching knees.

Cheers, helen s

[Bill Baka]

Jeff Starr wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2005 20:54:12 -0700, Bill > wrote:
>
>
>
>>>:-) Part of the justification for using them on the road may be that
>>>on the road, people don't fall very often!
>>>
>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>
>>Yes, but then you are kind of stuck on the road, and all that pavement has
>>to get boring at some point. It makes cycling kind of a dress up game that
>>you have to get ready for and not just do spontaneously.
>>Bill Baka
>
>
> Well, loading 4 gallons of water on your bike isn't something you just
> do spontaneously either.
>
> This must be our daily reminder of what a moron you are. Mission
> accomplished!
>
>
> Life is Good!
> Jeff

No,
It just proves what an arrogant asshole roadie you are. I go out for
pure exercise and enjoyment and it seems all you want to do, or know how
to do, is try to look like another Lance Armstrong wannabee.
I feel sorry for people as dumb as you, Bush excepted.
Bill Baka

[Bill Baka]

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Peter Cole wrote:
>>>
>>>>I do a lot of off-road riding. I've taken dozens of hard falls in
>>>>every conceivable way: over the bars, backwards, high side, front
>>>>washout, etc. I've broken ribs twice, had many bad contusions....
>>>
>>>
>>>People who ride exclusively on the road probably don't fall
>>>
>>>>enough to appreciate the dangers. I would never use straps or
>>>>Powergrips again for off-road riding, so I can't see the
>>>>justification for using them on the road, either.
>>>
>>>:-) Part of the justification for using them on the road may be that
>>>on the road, people don't fall very often!
>>>
>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>
>>Yes, but then you are kind of stuck on the road, and all that
>>pavement has to get boring at some point. It makes cycling kind of a
>>dress up game that you have to get ready for and not just do
>>spontaneously.
>
>
> Just so you know, Bill, almost all off-road cyclists (mountain bikers) use
> either clipless pedals or some sort of strap/cage attachment device. Power
> straps ARE (were) dangerous for newbies, but still better than plain
> platform pedals. The need for "bursts" of power is often greater on trails
> than it is on roads.
>
> Bill "got the scars to back it up" S.
>
>
Unless you mean a lot of bruises and scrapes I don't have the scars to
prove how much I fell off. I do try to keep rubber side down. I admit
there are trails that require bursts of power, but some of those are at
over 25% and covered with rocks so riding is not an option, no matter
how good you think you are. I have been on trails I wouldn't try to ride
with even a little 100cc motorcycle.
Bill Baka

[Bill Baka]

Michael Warner wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2005 20:54:12 -0700, Bill wrote:
>
>
>>Yes, but then you are kind of stuck on the road, and all that pavement has
>>to get boring at some point. It makes cycling kind of a dress up game that
>>you have to get ready for and not just do spontaneously.
>
>
> If you live in the city it's not exactly spontaneous (or free) to load your
> mountain bike into the car and drive to a trail, is it? And you still
> presumably change clothes, although not into that "girly man" lycra gear
> that you seem so fixated on.
>
No, Actually these days I am wearing sweat bottoms and a plain white tee
shirt. 90+ degrees is too hot for the long leg levis. In the summer I
don't go hiking through the brush that much since all the stickers are
very mature and many will draw blood, even through levis. I just ride
mostly in the summer. MTB with 1.75" street tires. I may try my 700cc
Schwinn later, but not until I have proven it around town, and it is a
standard pedal bike now.
Bill Baka

At 56 (age again) I am not training for the TdF, much less any thing
else, and since I no longer live in Silicon Valley I have no need to
look like a yuppie geek.
Bill Baka

[[email protected]]

wafflycat wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> >
> > And watch for knee problems. Some people have had their knees injured
> > by cleats that weren't adjusted just so. With bare pedals or toe clips
> > (assuming no cleats) this is much less likely.
> >
>
> My experience was definitely the other way round. On standard platform
> pedals my knees *always* ached. Changing to clipless was instant change to
> non-aching knees.

?? Really? I wonder how that works.

I've heard of many people who experienced knee pain on first trying
clipless. In fact, that's also true for old-style cleats. People have
long traded advice on how to find the exact best position before
permanently fastening them to the shoes, to prevent that problem.

And I did the cleat adjusting for one person. In her case, she
definitely wanted the cleats furhter back than I thought proper,
despite everything I said. After a few hundred miles, she was
complaining about sore knees.

I'd think that with flat pedals, you'd automatically position your foot
on the pedals to avoid the slightest twinge! Furthermore, I'd think it
would be impossible to apply torsional strain. It's certainly possible
with clipless.

I'd be curious about the details of your case.

- Frank Krygowski

[wafflycat]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> wafflycat wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> >
>> > And watch for knee problems. Some people have had their knees injured
>> > by cleats that weren't adjusted just so. With bare pedals or toe clips
>> > (assuming no cleats) this is much less likely.
>> >
>>
>> My experience was definitely the other way round. On standard platform
>> pedals my knees *always* ached. Changing to clipless was instant change
>> to
>> non-aching knees.
>
> ?? Really? I wonder how that works.
>

Yes, really.
Don't know, don't care how it works.
Possibly because clipless is more efficient pedalling action & I ended up
pushing less on the downstroke of the pedalling action.
It happened and my knees thank the day I changed to clipless.

Cheers, helen s

[jj]

On Sat, 28 May 2005 12:49:03 +0100, "wafflycat"
<waffles*A*T*v21net*D*O*T*co*D*O*T*uk> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>>
>> wafflycat wrote:
>>> > wrote in message
>>> oups.com...
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > And watch for knee problems. Some people have had their knees injured
>>> > by cleats that weren't adjusted just so. With bare pedals or toe clips
>>> > (assuming no cleats) this is much less likely.
>>> >
>>>
>>> My experience was definitely the other way round. On standard platform
>>> pedals my knees *always* ached. Changing to clipless was instant change
>>> to
>>> non-aching knees.
>>
>> ?? Really? I wonder how that works.
>>
>
>Yes, really.
>Don't know, don't care how it works.
>Possibly because clipless is more efficient pedalling action & I ended up
>pushing less on the downstroke of the pedalling action.
>It happened and my knees thank the day I changed to clipless.
>
>Cheers, helen s

Having been off the bike for a couple weeks due to having the flu, on my
ride yesterday, the front of my lower right leg just wouldn't relax - it
felt like I was being forced to hold my toes up - the muscle is the
tibialis anterior - medial to the shin bone. It wasn't spasmed - just felt
tight, pumped.

Anyway it was definitely a bit inhibiting and I realized that when one is
riding well the legs definitely must be relaxed - there is no sensation of
pushing or pulling. Of course there are times when you stomp the pedals and
times when you're surging up a hill or attacking on the flats, but this
unwanted tightness really made me realize how important it was to be able
to relax the legs.

FWIW...

jj