Dahon Impulse D6 vs. Giant Halfway

[C.J.Patten]

Hey folks!

I've narrowed my choices down to two, aluminum-frame, 20" wheel folding
bikes.

They both ride nicely though I've only had about 15 minutes on each. I was
hard pressed to tell much of a difference between them.

I've copied prices and some tech specs below. If there's anything you see
that says "oh boy, watch out for that kid" I'd appreciate the heads up.
(I've left out items that are the same on both bikes; eg: they both come
with fenders, folding pedals etc.)

_________

$450CAD "Avenir" (Canadian rebranded "2004 Dahon Impulse D6" - Aluminum):
http://tinyurl.com/9r2e4
Add rear rack: +$30. So really the Avenir/D6 comes to...
$480CAD

$730CAD Giant Halfway: http://tinyurl.com/77d8l
Comes with a nice integrated rear rack (don't know how stable it'll be
without side braces though).

_________

Giant Halfway: Shimano Revo shifter, 7-speed, Shimano Sora derailleur.
13-28T freewheel, 48T crank

Avenir/D6: Tourney, SRAM 6-speed grip shift, Shimano Tourney derailleur .
14-28T freewheel, Suntour SR 52T crank

FYI: Dahon makes a steel-frame version of the Avenir for about 50% of the
cost. (!) My last bike was Cro-Mo and never let me down but I'm leaning
toward Aluminum. There doesn't seem to be a weight penalty... should I
reconsider the steel frame or is the aluminum likely more maintenance free
long-term?

Thanks folks.

Chris - Ottawa, Canada

[Joe Canuck]

C.J.Patten wrote:

> Hey folks!
>
> I've narrowed my choices down to two, aluminum-frame, 20" wheel folding
> bikes.
>
> They both ride nicely though I've only had about 15 minutes on each. I was
> hard pressed to tell much of a difference between them.
>
> I've copied prices and some tech specs below. If there's anything you see
> that says "oh boy, watch out for that kid" I'd appreciate the heads up.
> (I've left out items that are the same on both bikes; eg: they both come
> with fenders, folding pedals etc.)
>
> _________
>
> $450CAD "Avenir" (Canadian rebranded "2004 Dahon Impulse D6" - Aluminum):
> http://tinyurl.com/9r2e4
> Add rear rack: +$30. So really the Avenir/D6 comes to...
> $480CAD
>
> $730CAD Giant Halfway: http://tinyurl.com/77d8l
> Comes with a nice integrated rear rack (don't know how stable it'll be
> without side braces though).
>
> _________
>
> Giant Halfway: Shimano Revo shifter, 7-speed, Shimano Sora derailleur.
> 13-28T freewheel, 48T crank
>
> Avenir/D6: Tourney, SRAM 6-speed grip shift, Shimano Tourney derailleur .
> 14-28T freewheel, Suntour SR 52T crank
>
> FYI: Dahon makes a steel-frame version of the Avenir for about 50% of the
> cost. (!) My last bike was Cro-Mo and never let me down but I'm leaning
> toward Aluminum. There doesn't seem to be a weight penalty... should I
> reconsider the steel frame or is the aluminum likely more maintenance free
> long-term?
>
> Thanks folks.
>
> Chris - Ottawa, Canada
>
>

I have an aluminum frame mountain bike (Giant) that I use mainly for
urban riding.

To do over again, I would not purchase aluminum as it is a harsher ride
than steel... but thats just me and I enjoy comfort. :)

[C.J.Patten]

Wow. I had NO idea!

Since you ride in exactly the same city as I do, I'd say that's a common
frame of reference. (no pun intended)

Thanks Joe!

Chris




"Joe Canuck" > wrote in message
...
> C.J.Patten wrote:
>
>> Hey folks!
>>
>> I've narrowed my choices down to two, aluminum-frame, 20" wheel folding
>> bikes.
>>
>> They both ride nicely though I've only had about 15 minutes on each. I
>> was hard pressed to tell much of a difference between them.
>>
>> I've copied prices and some tech specs below. If there's anything you see
>> that says "oh boy, watch out for that kid" I'd appreciate the heads up.
>> (I've left out items that are the same on both bikes; eg: they both come
>> with fenders, folding pedals etc.)
>>
>> _________
>>
>> $450CAD "Avenir" (Canadian rebranded "2004 Dahon Impulse D6" - Aluminum):
>> http://tinyurl.com/9r2e4
>> Add rear rack: +$30. So really the Avenir/D6 comes to...
>> $480CAD
>>
>> $730CAD Giant Halfway: http://tinyurl.com/77d8l
>> Comes with a nice integrated rear rack (don't know how stable it'll be
>> without side braces though).
>>
>> _________
>>
>> Giant Halfway: Shimano Revo shifter, 7-speed, Shimano Sora derailleur.
>> 13-28T freewheel, 48T crank
>>
>> Avenir/D6: Tourney, SRAM 6-speed grip shift, Shimano Tourney derailleur .
>> 14-28T freewheel, Suntour SR 52T crank
>>
>> FYI: Dahon makes a steel-frame version of the Avenir for about 50% of the
>> cost. (!) My last bike was Cro-Mo and never let me down but I'm leaning
>> toward Aluminum. There doesn't seem to be a weight penalty... should I
>> reconsider the steel frame or is the aluminum likely more maintenance
>> free long-term?
>>
>> Thanks folks.
>>
>> Chris - Ottawa, Canada
>
> I have an aluminum frame mountain bike (Giant) that I use mainly for urban
> riding.
>
> To do over again, I would not purchase aluminum as it is a harsher ride
> than steel... but thats just me and I enjoy comfort. :)
>

[p_b_floyd]

I noticed recently onthe uk.rec.cycling forum a thread with links to a
UK folding bike society. In turn that seemed to have lots on various
folders, including magazine and private reviews.

Good luck


--
p_b_floyd

[[email protected]]

C.J.Patten wrote:
> Wow. I had NO idea!
>
> Since you ride in exactly the same city as I do, I'd say that's a common
> frame of reference. (no pun intended)
>
> Thanks Joe!
>
> Chris

Chris, you need to take that with a HUGE grain of salt.

The idea that certain frame materials themselves are "harsh," that
others are "resilient," that others are "firm" or "supple" or
"responsive" or "silky" or "noodly" is essentially nonsense.

Depending on the design of the frame, any material can be used to make
a more or less rigid frame, a more or less stable frame, a quicker or
slower handling frame, etc. etc. This has been discussed ad infinitum
in rec.bicycles.tech (check the archives). While agreement isn't
universal (it is Usenet, after all) the usual way the sides stack up
is: about a dozen engineers, bike builders and bike shop owners on one
side, saying what I've just said; versus two or three people who get
all their technical education from Buycycling magazine.

Cases in point: Early aluminum racing frames (e.g. the Alan frames)
were so flexible that the chain would scrape both sides of the front
derailleur in a sprint. They still won races, but nobody _ever_ called
them "harsh." Later aluminum Kleins and Cannondales had super-stiff
bottom brackets. They won races too. Buycycling called them "harsh."
European magazines, reportedly, never did. Yet all three of these
bikes were aluminum.

Folder case in point: Read what you can about the Bickerton folding
bike, made in England in the 1970s. Supposedly, it flexed like a worn
out spring. Nobody ever dreamed of calling its ride "harsh." Again,
aluminum frame.

>From an engineering standpoint, there's no way any "harshness" is going
to be transmitted to your butt by a two-foot-long seatpost. That in
itself will be flexible enough to make it feel like you're floating.


- Frank Krygowski

[Tony Raven]

C.J.Patten wrote:
> Wow. I had NO idea!
>
> Since you ride in exactly the same city as I do, I'd say that's a common
> frame of reference. (no pun intended)
>


Don't worry yourself with Joe's comment. Its an old chestnut. The
frame material makes no difference to the harshness of the ride. The
tyres and tyre pressure, saddle and handlebar grips do.


--
Tony

"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, C.J.Patten
') wrote:

> Hey folks!
>
> I've narrowed my choices down to two, aluminum-frame, 20" wheel
> folding bikes.
>
> They both ride nicely though I've only had about 15 minutes on each. I
> was hard pressed to tell much of a difference between them.
>
> I've copied prices and some tech specs below. If there's anything you
> see that says "oh boy, watch out for that kid" I'd appreciate the
> heads up. (I've left out items that are the same on both bikes; eg:
> they both come with fenders, folding pedals etc.)

The Giant Halfway is a Mike Burrows design and has much nicer kit, but
I'm not sure whether that justifies the increase in price. It also has
a slightly wider gear range with lower bottom gears, if that's a
consideration.

> FYI: Dahon makes a steel-frame version of the Avenir for about 50% of
> the cost. (!) My last bike was Cro-Mo and never let me down but I'm
> leaning toward Aluminum. There doesn't seem to be a weight penalty...
> should I reconsider the steel frame or is the aluminum likely more
> maintenance free long-term?

_If_ there is no weight penalty, the steel bike may be a better buy. OK,
it will rust if you scratch the paint. But steel frames are springier,
unlikely to crack, often more comfortable to ride, repairable if
damaged, and with moderate maintenance (say one respray every twenty
years) will last indefinitely.

In a major impact aluminium is likely to crack, in which case it's a
write-off - and, indeed, even if it bends it's almost certainly a
write-off. Furthermore, although aluminium does not rust, it will
corrode electrolytically wherever there are steel components connected
to the frame if it is not stored dry, and, over long periods of time,
these will destroy the frame too.

So long term the steel frame is a slightly better bet. Provided, of
course, there _is_ no weight penalty.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; my other religion is Emacs

[Joe Canuck]

wrote:
>
> C.J.Patten wrote:
>
>>Wow. I had NO idea!
>>
>>Since you ride in exactly the same city as I do, I'd say that's a common
>>frame of reference. (no pun intended)
>>
>>Thanks Joe!
>>
>>Chris
>
>
> Chris, you need to take that with a HUGE grain of salt.
>
> The idea that certain frame materials themselves are "harsh," that
> others are "resilient," that others are "firm" or "supple" or
> "responsive" or "silky" or "noodly" is essentially nonsense.
>
> Depending on the design of the frame, any material can be used to make
> a more or less rigid frame, a more or less stable frame, a quicker or
> slower handling frame, etc. etc. This has been discussed ad infinitum
> in rec.bicycles.tech (check the archives). While agreement isn't
> universal (it is Usenet, after all) the usual way the sides stack up
> is: about a dozen engineers, bike builders and bike shop owners on one
> side, saying what I've just said; versus two or three people who get
> all their technical education from Buycycling magazine.

I don't read any cycling magazines.

My comments were posted from personal experience.

Your mileage may vary.

[Joe Canuck]

Tony Raven wrote:

> C.J.Patten wrote:
>
>> Wow. I had NO idea!
>>
>> Since you ride in exactly the same city as I do, I'd say that's a
>> common frame of reference. (no pun intended)
>>
>
>
> Don't worry yourself with Joe's comment. Its an old chestnut. The
> frame material makes no difference to the harshness of the ride. The
> tyres and tyre pressure, saddle and handlebar grips do.
>
>

My comment was based on personal experience and was not "coloured" by
reading magazines... which I don't.

Buying a bike is a personal decision. I expect the OP to have done their
own research and not attach too much importance to personal experiences
supplied by others over the 'net.

The bottom line is... whatever it is they like, fits and feels good to
*them* is the right purchase for them... and that should *not* be
influenced by any comments on usenet.

[Dave Larrington]

wrote:

> Folder case in point: Read what you can about the Bickerton folding
> bike, made in England in the 1970s. Supposedly, it flexed like a worn
> out spring. Nobody ever dreamed of calling its ride "harsh." Again,
> aluminum frame.

No "supposedly" about it. They didn't call 'em "chocolate Bickies" for
nothing, y'know.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of
the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and
credulity encourages.

[C.J.Patten]

"Simon Brooke" > wrote in message
...
> in message >, C.J.Patten
> ') wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> The Giant Halfway is a Mike Burrows design and has much nicer kit, but
> I'm not sure whether that justifies the increase in price. It also has
> a slightly wider gear range with lower bottom gears, if that's a
> consideration.

Yes, in fairness, I test rode the Giant Halfway in slightly more hilly
conditions than the Dahon.
I was *just* at the edge of my capability to climb hills with the Giant -
likely I'd grow into it - but perhaps the D6 would be a poorer choice given
it may not have the gear range I need right now.


<snip>
>
> In a major impact aluminium is likely to crack, in which case it's a
> write-off - and, indeed, even if it bends it's almost certainly a
> write-off. Furthermore, although aluminium does not rust, it will
> corrode electrolytically wherever there are steel components connected
> to the frame if it is not stored dry, and, over long periods of time,
> these will destroy the frame too.

I'm confused. There are aluminum mountain bikes that don't seem to crack
apart - some without any kind of suspension.
By "impact" is this to say "hitting the frame with a hammer" (or throwing
rocks at it)?

This IS going to be a pathway bike but I'd like to know if I go aluminum I
don't have to worry about the frame spontaneously disintegrating through
regular use. (even if it's years and thousands of miles of regular use)
There seem to be a lot of Giant Halfway users out there with no reports of
(recent) self-destructions so I have to assume this is a reasonably designed
bike.

If it were able to take the beating, I'd probably put semi-knobbies on it
and take it on some dirt tracks - perhaps that's asking too much of this
bike though.

I'm strongly leaning toward the 'Halfway. I'm sure the Dahon would be a fine
bike but I'm looking for something I won't outgrow - or at least not feel
like I compromised. (realizing folders in general are a compromise)

The Giant seems to be the Cadillac of it's class though I don't know if the
idea that it's "halfway between a folder and a full size" is quite accurate.

Thanks VERY much for your input Simon!

Chris

[Tony Raven]

Joe Canuck wrote:
>
> My comment was based on personal experience and was not "coloured" by
> reading magazines... which I don't.
>

But wrongly ascribed your experience to the frame material and not the
many other factors which would have influenced the harshness of the
ride. At best you could say your advice was misleading.


--
Tony

"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, C.J.Patten
') wrote:

> "Simon Brooke" > wrote in message
> ...
>> in message >, C.J.Patten
>> ') wrote:
>>
> <snip>
>>
>> The Giant Halfway is a Mike Burrows design and has much nicer kit,
>> but I'm not sure whether that justifies the increase in price. It
>> also has a slightly wider gear range with lower bottom gears, if
>> that's a consideration.
>
> Yes, in fairness, I test rode the Giant Halfway in slightly more hilly
> conditions than the Dahon.
> I was *just* at the edge of my capability to climb hills with the
> Giant - likely I'd grow into it - but perhaps the D6 would be a poorer
> choice given it may not have the gear range I need right now.
>
>
> <snip>
>>
>> In a major impact aluminium is likely to crack, in which case it's a
>> write-off - and, indeed, even if it bends it's almost certainly a
>> write-off. Furthermore, although aluminium does not rust, it will
>> corrode electrolytically wherever there are steel components
>> connected to the frame if it is not stored dry, and, over long
>> periods of time, these will destroy the frame too.
>
> I'm confused. There are aluminum mountain bikes that don't seem to
> crack apart - some without any kind of suspension.
> By "impact" is this to say "hitting the frame with a hammer" (or
> throwing rocks at it)?

As in colliding with a moving motor vehicle, for example. Nothing less.

> This IS going to be a pathway bike but I'd like to know if I go
> aluminum I don't have to worry about the frame spontaneously
> disintegrating through regular use. (even if it's years and thousands
> of miles of regular use) There seem to be a lot of Giant Halfway users
> out there with no reports of (recent) self-destructions so I have to
> assume this is a reasonably designed bike.

Cracking of aluminium framed bikes is greatly exaggerated. It has
happened, largely with racing bikes (both road racing and cross
country) but it isn't at all common. The point is, though, a steel
frame that's been in a bad crash is almost always repairable (although
it may be uneconomic to repair); an aluminium or carbon fibre frame
frame which has been in a bad crash is usually not repairable.

> I'm strongly leaning toward the 'Halfway. I'm sure the Dahon would be
> a fine bike but I'm looking for something I won't outgrow - or at
> least not feel like I compromised. (realizing folders in general are a
> compromise)

I'd go for the Hafway - as I say, it _is_ a Mike Burrows design.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

There are no messages. The above is just a random stream of
bytes. Any opinion or meaning you find in it is your own creation.

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Thu, 26 May 2005 17:55:06 +0100, Simon Brooke
> wrote:

>Cracking of aluminium framed bikes is greatly exaggerated.

Ahem!

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/The_Stinger_Stung

Twice!

OK, misleading vividness ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Tony Raven]

Simon Brooke wrote:

>
> Cracking of aluminium framed bikes is greatly exaggerated. It has
> happened, largely with racing bikes (both road racing and cross
> country) but it isn't at all common. The point is, though, a steel
> frame that's been in a bad crash is almost always repairable (although
> it may be uneconomic to repair); an aluminium or carbon fibre frame
> frame which has been in a bad crash is usually not repairable.
>

Indeed in the one comparative frame fatigue test that has been reported,
aluminium frames were the only ones to survive the test intact. The
same was not true of steel bikes all of which failed prematurely. Of
all the frame materials - steel, aluminium, carbon fibre and titanium -
steel showed the shortest fatigue life.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm


--
Tony

"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

[Tony Raven]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2005 17:55:06 +0100, Simon Brooke
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Cracking of aluminium framed bikes is greatly exaggerated.
>
>
> Ahem!
>
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/The_Stinger_Stung
>
> Twice!
>
> OK, misleading vividness ;-)
>

Frame material or frame design? A case of anecdote over evidence to
which I reply http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm

--
Tony

"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

[C.J.Patten]

"Simon Brooke" > wrote:
<snip snip>
>
> As in colliding with a moving motor vehicle, for example. Nothing less.
>
<snip>
>
> Cracking of aluminium framed bikes is greatly exaggerated. It has
> happened, largely with racing bikes (both road racing and cross
> country) but it isn't at all common. The point is, though, a steel
> frame that's been in a bad crash is almost always repairable (although
> it may be uneconomic to repair); an aluminium or carbon fibre frame
> frame which has been in a bad crash is usually not repairable.

Thanks Simon... I see what you mean about the impact damage.


<snip>
>
> I'd go for the Hafway - as I say, it _is_ a Mike Burrows design.

(frantically Googling "Mike Burrows"...;)

___________________________

Thanks Tony and Guy for the links.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/The_Stinger_Stung

I'm feeling more comfortable with aluminum now. I wasn't *un*comfortable
with it until I started reading about stress cracks etc. As with just about
anything, I think it's safe to say poor design is more of a concern than
material used.

Best regards,
Chris

[Steven M. Scharf]

"C.J.Patten" > wrote in message
...

> I've copied prices and some tech specs below. If there's anything you see
> that says "oh boy, watch out for that kid" I'd appreciate the heads up.
> (I've left out items that are the same on both bikes; eg: they both come
> with fenders, folding pedals etc.)

One thing about most folding bikes is that the folding pedals really suck.
On my Dahon Speed TR 2004, I changed the pedals to the MKS removeable pedals
from Harris Cyclery (and installed toe clips and straps). I also sent an
e-mail to the VP of Dahon with an evaluation of the Speed TR, and mentioned
the pedal issue. Low and behold, the 2005 Speed TR has the MKS pedals as
standard equipment (whether that was due to my comments, I don't know).

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/pedals.html#folding

I would definitely not pay a premium for aluminum frame over chro-moly, if
anything it's the other way around. I suppose that if the bicycle is kept on
a boat then maybe aluminum is better, but there are still steel components
that would rust.

Personally, I was not looking at any folder with the limited gearing range
of the models you are considering, but I live in an area with a lot of
hills.

[Steven M. Scharf]

"Tony Raven" > wrote in message
...

> Indeed in the one comparative frame fatigue test that has been reported,
> aluminium frames were the only ones to survive the test intact. The
> same was not true of steel bikes all of which failed prematurely. Of
> all the frame materials - steel, aluminium, carbon fibre and titanium -
> steel showed the shortest fatigue life.
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm

The EFBe frame tests have been thoroughly discredited many times.

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Thu, 26 May 2005 18:46:30 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
> wrote:

>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm
>The EFBe frame tests have been thoroughly discredited many times.

Well, Tony, Scharf states with absolute conviction that you are wrong.
There are few more reliable indicators that you are right on the
money! The Scharf Test rarely lets you down.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Joe Canuck]

Tony Raven wrote:

> Joe Canuck wrote:
>
>>
>> My comment was based on personal experience and was not "coloured" by
>> reading magazines... which I don't.
>>
>
> But wrongly ascribed your experience to the frame material and not the
> many other factors which would have influenced the harshness of the
> ride. At best you could say your advice was misleading.
>
>

It was not advice.

I was relating my personal experience.

We can debate that until the cows come home, however it will still be my
personal experience.

[C.J.Patten]

Well, just when I think I'm deciding between 2 bikes, a 3rd one gets
presented.

$350CAD Norco Origami: http://tinyurl.com/dt644

I find myself fighting the assumption because something isn't well known
it's somehow flawed as there's no information about the Norco.

<sigh>

I don't think I can take the risk on the Norco - I'll pick up the Giant
Halfway later this week. At least it's a known quantity.

Perhaps that assumption of flaws in lesser known products is just
self-preservation for the 21st century working man who can't afford a $350
mistake.

Thanks all - you guys have been helpful. Comments still appreciated.

Chris

_________

The first two bikes...

$730CAD Giant Halfway: http://tinyurl.com/77d8l
$450CAD "Avenir" (rebranded "2004 Dahon Impulse D6" - Aluminum):
http://tinyurl.com/9r2e4

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Thu, 26 May 2005 16:42:09 -0400, "C.J.Patten"
> wrote:

>$350CAD Norco Origami: http://tinyurl.com/dt644

Looks like a rebadged Dahon to me, but ICBW.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Tony Raven]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2005 18:46:30 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm
>>
>>The EFBe frame tests have been thoroughly discredited many times.
>
>
> Well, Tony, Scharf states with absolute conviction that you are wrong.
> There are few more reliable indicators that you are right on the
> money! The Scharf Test rarely lets you down.
>

Hmmm Scharf or Sheldon, Scharf or Sheldon, I wonder which I trust more?


--
Tony

"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

[C.J.Patten]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in message
...

>>$350CAD Norco Origami: http://tinyurl.com/dt644
>
> Looks like a rebadged Dahon to me, but ICBW.

Yeah, I thought so too at first but I went through the entire Dahon
website - 2004 and 2005, domestic and international - and while similar, it
doesn't match any specific Dahon model.

Guess it's another "no-name" type bike. (and at $350CAD for an aluminum
frame, I'm guessing this is a Chinese knock off)

OT: not to stir up a hornet's nest, but the "high-end" folders people keep
talking about (Birdy, Brompton, Frog??) *seem* to have one thing going for
them: folded size. Are they particularly good rides or is their popularity
due to their compactness? (let's assume non-suspension models)

Thanks again,
Chris

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, Tony Raven
') wrote:

> Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2005 18:46:30 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm
>>>
>>>The EFBe frame tests have been thoroughly discredited many times.
>>
>> Well, Tony, Scharf states with absolute conviction that you are
>> wrong. There are few more reliable indicators that you are right on
>> the
>> money! The Scharf Test rarely lets you down.
>
> Hmmm Scharf or Sheldon, Scharf or Sheldon, I wonder which I trust
> more?

Chips.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Want to know what SCO stands for?
;; http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030605

[Joe Canuck]

C.J.Patten wrote:
> Well, just when I think I'm deciding between 2 bikes, a 3rd one gets
> presented.
>
> $350CAD Norco Origami: http://tinyurl.com/dt644

You may be able to check it out in person at Kunstadt in Kanata.

Seems to me I remember Kunstadt keeping them in stock a couple of years
ago, not sure about the current situation.


>
> I find myself fighting the assumption because something isn't well known
> it's somehow flawed as there's no information about the Norco.
>
> <sigh>
>
> I don't think I can take the risk on the Norco - I'll pick up the Giant
> Halfway later this week. At least it's a known quantity.
>
> Perhaps that assumption of flaws in lesser known products is just
> self-preservation for the 21st century working man who can't afford a $350
> mistake.
>
> Thanks all - you guys have been helpful. Comments still appreciated.
>
> Chris
>
> _________
>
> The first two bikes...
>
> $730CAD Giant Halfway: http://tinyurl.com/77d8l
> $450CAD "Avenir" (rebranded "2004 Dahon Impulse D6" - Aluminum):
> http://tinyurl.com/9r2e4
>
>

[C.J.Patten]

Hey thanks. When I spoke to Peter Kunstadt the other day, they didn't keep
any folding bikes in stock except an old Peugeot (c.1980).

Was thinking of going to get the Giant tonight but I may have a date (not
with a bike ;)

I'll post back once I give the 'Halfway another test ride or if I get to try
any others. (heading out of town tomorrow - might have a chance to try some
other models while I'm away - Peterborough and London)

TTYS,
Chris in Ottawa


"Joe Canuck" > wrote in message
...
> C.J.Patten wrote:
>> Well, just when I think I'm deciding between 2 bikes, a 3rd one gets
>> presented.
>>
>> $350CAD Norco Origami: http://tinyurl.com/dt644
>
> You may be able to check it out in person at Kunstadt in Kanata.
>
> Seems to me I remember Kunstadt keeping them in stock a couple of years
> ago, not sure about the current situation.
>
>
>>
>> I find myself fighting the assumption because something isn't well known
>> it's somehow flawed as there's no information about the Norco.
>>
>> <sigh>
>>
>> I don't think I can take the risk on the Norco - I'll pick up the Giant
>> Halfway later this week. At least it's a known quantity.
>>
>> Perhaps that assumption of flaws in lesser known products is just
>> self-preservation for the 21st century working man who can't afford a
>> $350 mistake.
>>
>> Thanks all - you guys have been helpful. Comments still appreciated.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> _________
>>
>> The first two bikes...
>>
>> $730CAD Giant Halfway: http://tinyurl.com/77d8l
>> $450CAD "Avenir" (rebranded "2004 Dahon Impulse D6" - Aluminum):
>> http://tinyurl.com/9r2e4

[[email protected]]

C.J.Patten wrote:
>
>
> Was thinking of going to get the Giant tonight but I may have a date (not
> with a bike ;)
>
> I'll post back once I give the 'Halfway another test ride or if I get to try
> any others.

Well, tell us the results, and don't spare the details.

Oh, and let us know about the bike, too! ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:31:07 +0100, Tony Raven >
wrote:

>Hmmm Scharf or Sheldon, Scharf or Sheldon, I wonder which I trust more?

Tough call. Scharf is, after all, one of the world's leading
authorities on hubris.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Thu, 26 May 2005 18:04:31 -0400, "C.J.Patten"
> wrote:

>OT: not to stir up a hornet's nest, but the "high-end" folders people keep
>talking about (Birdy, Brompton, Frog??) *seem* to have one thing going for
>them: folded size. Are they particularly good rides or is their popularity
>due to their compactness? (let's assume non-suspension models)

Ah, well. Over on uk.rec.cycling I've been appending
"fold-unfold-fold-unfold" to every other post, since I've just taken
delivery of a new Brompton L6 :-)

The popularity of the Brom is largely down to compactness - although
it rides fine, and if it's all you have you'll be reasonably content,
if I were going out for a century ride and had to pick one of my
bikes, the Brom would not be it.

The Birdy Grey rides better, I'm told.

I have read reviews of the Halfway which claim that it is a genuinely
rideable bike; I think it's OK (for a wedgie) but I've not ridden any
distance on one. Although Mike Burrows didn't actually design it
AFAIK, it does have some Burrows influences.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Tony Raven]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>
>>Hmmm Scharf or Sheldon, Scharf or Sheldon, I wonder which I trust more?
>
>
> Tough call. Scharf is, after all, one of the world's leading
> authorities on hubris.
>
> Guy

What is this hubris you speak of and how can I get some for my hubs?

--
Tony ;-)

"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

[Peter Clinch]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

> The popularity of the Brom is largely down to compactness

But not just compactness: speed and ease of compactness are all part and
parcel of it. You can get Moultons into smaller spaces by taking them
to bits, but not in 15 seconds you can't.

> The Birdy Grey rides better, I'm told.

It might well ride better after you've changed the *thing* it comes
supplied with for a comfortable saddle. I commented on this to Darth
Ben after trying a BGr out at Kinetics and his reply was on the lines of
"R&M feel that a high end bike like this should have a sport saddle,
but I'd put something like a Brooks on it myself". Well, quite.

The Birdies share a common frame, so they tend to ride much the same
though a choice of bar stems is available (the "comfort" is standard on
the Green, but can be specified on any Birdy), and of course you can
change the saddles to suit. The standard Birdy stem gives the bike a
riding position that's rather more stretched out like a "proper" sports
bike. I've not tried the comfort stem.

The Birdy frame is quite a bit stiffer than a Brom, the wheels are a
little bigger and the front suspension makes an appreciable difference
to ride quality. The better gearing options make it a superior "do
anything" bike, though of course it does cost a lot more, even in the
basic Red flavour, and the Brom does what it excels at better than a
Birdy. You choose, you lose...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[Tony Raven]

Peter Clinch wrote:
> Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>
>> The popularity of the Brom is largely down to compactness
>
>
> But not just compactness: speed and ease of compactness are all part and
> parcel of it. You can get Moultons into smaller spaces by taking them
> to bits, but not in 15 seconds you can't.
>

The Brompton is also supremely nimble for getting through traffic in a
way that bigger wheeled bikes are not - partly due to the size of gap
you can turn a big wheel into. They also have the supremely useful
quickfold which I use all the time to park it temporarily.

--
Tony

"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

[C.J.Patten]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> C.J.Patten wrote:
>>
>> Was thinking of going to get the Giant tonight but I may have a date (not
>> with a bike ;)
>>
>> I'll post back once I give the 'Halfway another test ride or if I get to
>> try
>> any others.
>
> Well, tell us the results, and don't spare the details.
>
> Oh, and let us know about the bike, too! ;-)


LOL! Well, I'm having breakfast with her this morning. (called, not nudged
;)

I'm off to Peterborough and London later today so I'll have a look at
folding bikes down there while I'm at it. No sense in buying a bike that's
going to sit in my bedroom while I'm away - might as well do some bike
shopping while I'm out of town. ;)

Chris

[C.J.Patten]

Howdy folks!

On my trip to visit family I ended up buying a discontinued bike I hadn't
heard of.

I phoned about a dozen bike shops while in London - all the bikes on my
short list were there - Giant, Dahon, Norco.

One shop - only a few blocks from where I was staying - had a 2003, KHS
"Westwood".
I test rode it for about 20 minutes - over railroad tracks, sidewalks, pot
holes, grass & hilly terrain.

Here's the specs: http://tinyurl.com/99cm4

___________________________

Story is, the shop got it in 2003 & sold a lot of lower-end folders but this
one never went - "too high-end for their clients."

Ended up costing me about $150 less than a 2005 Giant Halfway.

16 gears and full suspension were big selling points.

It's a bit heavier than the other models I looked at but I can pare that
down with a lighter seat and a carbon post if I want to. I'll just ride it
for now and see how it goes. (I'm not in particularly hilly terrain)

The CroMo frame has a 25 year warranty (KHS aluminums only have 3 yr
warranties - don't know what to read into that...?)

___________________________


I hope the risk pays off - it's a seven hour drive to the shop.

I'll write more once I've got a few hundred kilometers on this bike!

Chris - normally in Ottawa, writing from London & Peterborough, Canada

p.s. what can I spray inside the frame to inhibit corrosion? Something
designed for this purpose...?

[Jon Senior]

C.J.Patten wrote:
> p.s. what can I spray inside the frame to inhibit corrosion? Something
> designed for this purpose...?

http://www.framebuilding.com/Framesaver.htm

Bottom of the page. Ceeway will ship abroad, but given this is a US
product, you may find it cheaper to buy when you return home.

Congrats on the bike. May you enjoy many happy hours of
fold-unfold-fold-unfold. Perhaps you might even ride it at some point. ;-)

Jon

[C.J.Patten]

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk> wrote in message
...
> C.J.Patten wrote:
>> p.s. what can I spray inside the frame to inhibit corrosion? Something
>> designed for this purpose...?
>
> http://www.framebuilding.com/Framesaver.htm
>
> Bottom of the page. Ceeway will ship abroad, but given this is a US
> product, you may find it cheaper to buy when you return home.
>
> Congrats on the bike. May you enjoy many happy hours of
> fold-unfold-fold-unfold. Perhaps you might even ride it at some point. ;-)


LOL! Thanks Jon!

My bike is sitting serenely in the middle of my basement flat, folded in
half.

I figured out what the odd, trapezoid bracket protruding on the bottom is:
it's a stand for when it's folded!!! It stands up on it's own! 8D

I'm dying to get out on it but it's going to rain today so I'm taking the
car to find some Frame Saver... there are enough bike shops around,
someone's gotta have it!!!

TTYS!
Chris

[Zoot Katz]

Mon, 30 May 2005 09:54:42 -0400, >,
"C.J.Patten" > wrote:

>
>I'm dying to get out on it but it's going to rain today so I'm taking the
>car to find some Frame Saver... there are enough bike shops around,
>someone's gotta have it!!!

If you're unable to find it, boiled linseed oil will do the job.
--
zk

[C.J.Patten]

>Zoot Katz" > wrote in message
...
>
> If you're unable to find <Frame Saver> , boiled linseed oil will do the
> job.


Thanks Zoot! I called several dozen bike shops. It seems NOBODY within a 100
miles of home has "Frame Saver."
I ended up getting the boiled linseed oil. :)

I hear thunder claps outside so now seems like a good time to get it coated.
Heard it takes a while to dry. Multiple coats a good idea for tube
interiors? (for finishing furniture it sure is ;)

TTYS!
Chris

[Zoot Katz]

Mon, 30 May 2005 14:51:43 -0400, >,
"C.J.Patten" > wrote:

>
>I hear thunder claps outside so now seems like a good time to get it coated.
>Heard it takes a while to dry. Multiple coats a good idea for tube
>interiors? (for finishing furniture it sure is ;)

Steel isn't as absorbent as wood so I don't know that multiple coats
would help.

Getting it on all the surfaces is the tricky part but I doubt the
proprietary products aren't any better at that.

A paint additive called "Penetrol" dries more quickly but is also hard
to find.
--
zk

[Joe Canuck]

C.J.Patten wrote:

> "Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk> wrote in message
> ...
>
>>C.J.Patten wrote:
>>
>>>p.s. what can I spray inside the frame to inhibit corrosion? Something
>>>designed for this purpose...?
>>
>>http://www.framebuilding.com/Framesaver.htm
>>
>>Bottom of the page. Ceeway will ship abroad, but given this is a US
>>product, you may find it cheaper to buy when you return home.
>>
>>Congrats on the bike. May you enjoy many happy hours of
>>fold-unfold-fold-unfold. Perhaps you might even ride it at some point. ;-)
>
>
>
> LOL! Thanks Jon!
>
> My bike is sitting serenely in the middle of my basement flat, folded in
> half.
>
> I figured out what the odd, trapezoid bracket protruding on the bottom is:
> it's a stand for when it's folded!!! It stands up on it's own! 8D
>
> I'm dying to get out on it but it's going to rain today so I'm taking the
> car to find some Frame Saver... there are enough bike shops around,
> someone's gotta have it!!!
>
> TTYS!
> Chris
>
>

Congrats on the bike, may you enjoy many hours of enjoyable riding and
service from it.

WD-40 might work as well. After it dries it leaves an oily residue. Also
available in bulk instead of spray.

[David Nutter]

On 2005-05-30, C.J.Patten > wrote:
>>Zoot Katz" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> If you're unable to find <Frame Saver> , boiled linseed oil will do the
>> job.
>
>
> Thanks Zoot! I called several dozen bike shops. It seems NOBODY within a 100
> miles of home has "Frame Saver."
> I ended up getting the boiled linseed oil. :)

Waxoyl (an ancient rust preventative for car bodywork and subframes) might
be a little easier. I believe you can get it in an aerosol can these days.

Nasty gloopy, smeary stuff though. Keep it inside the tubes.

Regards,

-david