lame fattie masters

[Andy Coggan]

Not long before I flatted during the TT at master nationals on Monday, I
found myself rolling up on a couple of riders who looked like they were
doing a 2-up TTT. I swear, the guy sitting on was no more than a wheel's
length directly behind the other rider, and stayed there for at least a
minute - it could have been for even longer, but that's about as long as I
had them in sight before a state police car passed me and then tucked in
behind them, causing the 2nd rider to drop back a little (but still not the
required distance). My question is, what would motivate some lame fattie
master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had any hope
of making the podium...

[Andy Coggan]

"warren" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Andy
> Coggan > wrote:
>
> > Not long before I flatted during the TT at master nationals on Monday, I
> > found myself rolling up on a couple of riders who looked like they were
> > doing a 2-up TTT. I swear, the guy sitting on was no more than a wheel's
> > length directly behind the other rider, and stayed there for at least a
> > minute - it could have been for even longer, but that's about as long as
I
> > had them in sight before a state police car passed me and then tucked in
> > behind them, causing the 2nd rider to drop back a little (but still not
the
> > required distance). My question is, what would motivate some lame fattie
> > master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had any
hope
> > of making the podium...
>
> When he brags to his other fattie friends they'll hear about his time
> and think he's cool, so there's no need to clutter up the story with
> the gory details.

Yeah, but in this case the guy's going to be "bragging" about a 60-61 min
40k!

> So Andy, have you calculated what your "virtual" time would have been
> without the flat? Good, okay, not-so good? What was your average
> watts/kg?

Yes, okay, about 4.5.

Andy Coggan

[warren]

In article t>, Andy
Coggan > wrote:

> "warren" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, Andy
> > Coggan > wrote:
> >
> > > Not long before I flatted during the TT at master nationals on Monday, I
> > > found myself rolling up on a couple of riders who looked like they were
> > > doing a 2-up TTT. I swear, the guy sitting on was no more than a wheel's
> > > length directly behind the other rider, and stayed there for at least a
> > > minute - it could have been for even longer, but that's about as long as
> I
> > > had them in sight before a state police car passed me and then tucked in
> > > behind them, causing the 2nd rider to drop back a little (but still not
> the
> > > required distance). My question is, what would motivate some lame fattie
> > > master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had any
> hope
> > > of making the podium...
> >
> > When he brags to his other fattie friends they'll hear about his time
> > and think he's cool, so there's no need to clutter up the story with
> > the gory details.
>
> Yeah, but in this case the guy's going to be "bragging" about a 60-61 min
> 40k!
>
> > So Andy, have you calculated what your "virtual" time would have been
> > without the flat? Good, okay, not-so good? What was your average
> > watts/kg?
>
> Yes, okay, about 4.5.

If I could do that I wouldn't have to draft during ITT's...

-WG

[Andy Coggan]

"matabala" > wrote in message
...

> "Andy Coggan" > wrote in message
> .net...
> > Not long before I flatted during the TT at master nationals on Monday, I
> > found myself rolling up on a couple of riders who looked like they were
> > doing a 2-up TTT. I swear, the guy sitting on was no more than a wheel's
> > length directly behind the other rider, and stayed there for at least a
> > minute - it could have been for even longer, but that's about as long as
I
> > had them in sight before a state police car passed me and then tucked in
> > behind them, causing the 2nd rider to drop back a little (but still not
> the
> > required distance). My question is, what would motivate some lame fattie
> > master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had any
> hope
> > of making the podium...

> To feel the wrath of a studly honed master-

Not wrath - puzzlement. What would possess some cat. 3 or 4 old fart to
travel >1000 miles to compete at masters nationals and then feel the need to
cheat? I just don't get it.

Andy Coggan

[Tim Lines]

Well, I was tired!

Andy Coggan wrote:

> Not long before I flatted during the TT at master nationals on Monday, I
> found myself rolling up on a couple of riders who looked like they were
> doing a 2-up TTT. I swear, the guy sitting on was no more than a wheel's
> length directly behind the other rider, and stayed there for at least a
> minute - it could have been for even longer, but that's about as long as I
> had them in sight before a state police car passed me and then tucked in
> behind them, causing the 2nd rider to drop back a little (but still not the
> required distance). My question is, what would motivate some lame fattie
> master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had any hope
> of making the podium...
>
>

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Andy Coggan" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> "matabala" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > "Andy Coggan" > wrote in message
> > .net...
> > > Not long before I flatted during the TT at master nationals on Monday,
I
> > > found myself rolling up on a couple of riders who looked like they
were
> > > doing a 2-up TTT. I swear, the guy sitting on was no more than a
wheel's
> > > length directly behind the other rider, and stayed there for at least
a
> > > minute - it could have been for even longer, but that's about as long
as
> I
> > > had them in sight before a state police car passed me and then tucked
in
> > > behind them, causing the 2nd rider to drop back a little (but still
not
> > the
> > > required distance). My question is, what would motivate some lame
fattie
> > > master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had
any
> > hope
> > > of making the podium...
>
> > To feel the wrath of a studly honed master-
>
> Not wrath - puzzlement. What would possess some cat. 3 or 4 old fart to
> travel >1000 miles to compete at masters nationals and then feel the need
to
> cheat? I just don't get it.
>
> Andy Coggan




Cooglian -

There is a distinct possibility that "matabala" is the drafting Masters
Fattie in question.

[PedalChick]

I heard the same thing about the 40-44 group - apparently there was a
smooth rotating paceline going on in that TT... when you look at the
results, there's probably a group of guys significantly faster than
everyone else, but 30 seconds apart, or thereabouts.
Lousy cheating *******s.

"Andy Coggan" > wrote in message >...
> Not long before I flatted during the TT at master nationals on Monday, I
> found myself rolling up on a couple of riders who looked like they were
> doing a 2-up TTT. I swear, the guy sitting on was no more than a wheel's
> length directly behind the other rider, and stayed there for at least a
> minute - it could have been for even longer, but that's about as long as I
> had them in sight before a state police car passed me and then tucked in
> behind them, causing the 2nd rider to drop back a little (but still not the
> required distance). My question is, what would motivate some lame fattie
> master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had any hope
> of making the podium...

[Bret Wade]

"Andy Coggan" > wrote in message >...
> Not long before I flatted during the TT at master nationals on Monday, I
> found myself rolling up on a couple of riders who looked like they were
> doing a 2-up TTT. I swear, the guy sitting on was no more than a wheel's
> length directly behind the other rider, and stayed there for at least a
> minute - it could have been for even longer, but that's about as long as I
> had them in sight before a state police car passed me and then tucked in
> behind them, causing the 2nd rider to drop back a little (but still not the
> required distance). My question is, what would motivate some lame fattie
> master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had any hope
> of making the podium...

I once saw a woman who is a many time world champion cheat in a small
local time trial in Colorado by drafting one of the cat 1 men. She did
this despite the fact that she was going to take 2 minutes out of her
closest competition anyway. I figured that there were several possible
explanations:

1. still a little unclear about the rules after two decades of elite
racing
2. winning by less than 2 minutes would have been embarrassing
3. needed practice cheating for when it might actually be useful
4. curious about whether the officials were brave enough to do
anything
5. for some, cheating is a compulsive behavior with no logical
explanation

Bret

[Andy Coggan]

"PedalChick" > wrote in message
om...
> I heard the same thing about the 40-44 group - apparently there was a
> smooth rotating paceline going on in that TT... when you look at the
> results, there's probably a group of guys significantly faster than
> everyone else, but 30 seconds apart, or thereabouts.

Well, if there was I didn't see it - just one guy who finished way down
despite doing a little (human) motorpacing. Doesn't mean it didn't happen,
though - I walked a mile or more after flatting before getting a ride from a
local (nice guy...said he'd lived on that road since 1929), and during that
time was passed by only one moto-official. Aside from road guards at one
T-intersection and people at the turnaround, that was the only official
presence I saw on the whole course.

Andy Coggan

[Ken Papai]

"matabala" > wrote in message
...
> Perhaps the same motivation (but not the same expectation) that would
> inspire a hard-body cat 1 or 2 (know very little about the category
system)
> to travel 3000 miles to prove his mettle? Ours is not to wonder why, and
> certainly not to cast unflattering epithets at folks for giving it there
> best.
> Cheating, that's a lot easier. It goes on, in one form or another, in
just
> about every bike race, regardless of categy, no?
>

Whoever -- quit Top Posting. Ick!


> "Andy Coggan" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> > "matabala" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > "Andy Coggan" > wrote in message
> > > .net...
> > > > Not long before I flatted during the TT at master nationals on
Monday,
> I
> > > > found myself rolling up on a couple of riders who looked like they
> were
> > > > doing a 2-up TTT. I swear, the guy

[Andrew]

"Andy Coggan" > wrote in message
> My question is, what would motivate some lame fattie
> master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had any hope
> of making the podium...

Were there prizes by age group? He/they may have been gunning for one
of those. A while back, three jackasses were drafting one another
during a lame local biathlon. I passed them and whilst doing so let
them know how I felt. Nothing like watching others cheat while you
work your ball sack off (is that one word of two?). They probably won
their age group. Had they beaten me, I'd have reported them. I should
have anyway.

It appears I'm still a bit miffed.

[Andy Coggan]

"Andrew" > wrote in message
om...
> "Andy Coggan" > wrote in message
> > My question is, what would motivate some lame fattie
> > master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had any
hope
> > of making the podium...
>
> Were there prizes by age group? He/they may have been gunning for one
> of those.

Of course (that's why it is called master nationals). But this guy finished
more than 10 min back of 1st place, and more than 6 min back of a podium
spot.

Andy Coggan

[Ilan Vardi]

"Andy Coggan" > wrote in message >...
> Not long before I flatted during the TT at master nationals on Monday, I
> found myself rolling up on a couple of riders who looked like they were
> doing a 2-up TTT. I swear, the guy sitting on was no more than a wheel's
> length directly behind the other rider, and stayed there for at least a
> minute - it could have been for even longer, but that's about as long as I
> had them in sight before a state police car passed me and then tucked in
> behind them, causing the 2nd rider to drop back a little (but still not the
> required distance). My question is, what would motivate some lame fattie
> master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had any hope
> of making the podium...

Sign up on Yahoo Games and you will learn all about cheating. What I
find interesting are the rationalisations for cheating, like, "you're
not nice, etc." As for Masters racing, more intriguing is the drug
question, as there is probably not too much doubt that a large percentage
of the riders are high on all kinds of stuff, including the backmarkers.

As for you question regarding the fact that the guy had no hope
of making podium, it might be because master's racing is mostly
about being the best you can be, even if it means cheating... As I
said, people will come up with all kinds of rationalisations when under
stress.

-ilan

P.S. "lame fattie master" = redundant twice over.

[Corey Green]

"Andy Coggan" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> "matabala" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > "Andy Coggan" > wrote in message
> > .net...
> > > Not long before I flatted during the TT at master nationals on Monday,
I
> > > found myself rolling up on a couple of riders who looked like they
were
> > > doing a 2-up TTT. I swear, the guy sitting on was no more than a
wheel's
> > > length directly behind the other rider, and stayed there for at least
a
> > > minute - it could have been for even longer, but that's about as long
as
> I
> > > had them in sight before a state police car passed me and then tucked
in
> > > behind them, causing the 2nd rider to drop back a little (but still
not
> > the
> > > required distance). My question is, what would motivate some lame
fattie
> > > master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had
any
> > hope
> > > of making the podium...
>
> > To feel the wrath of a studly honed master-
>
> Not wrath - puzzlement. What would possess some cat. 3 or 4 old fart to
> travel >1000 miles to compete at masters nationals and then feel the need
to
> cheat? I just don't get it.
>
> Andy Coggan
>
I heard something about the aroma of Papa John's pizza and Krispy Kreme
donuts wafting from the jersey pockets. Probably a plant to distract the
other masters so the guys teammate could win the race. The guy probably
slowed down so he could try to find the food.

[TritonRider]

>From: (Ilan Vardi)

>-ilan
>
>P.S. "lame fattie master" = redundant twice over.
>

Yeah but at least Masters are less likely to do stupid ****. Being the Motor
Official for the 35+ field is usually a pleasure. They are fast, they generally
know how to race (If they don't the other riders explain it REAL quick), and
they don't tend to do stupid ****. Being in the middle of a tough 4/5 full
field is interesting to say the least. With the Masters if you see a problem
you can let them know you see it, and it goes away. With 4/5s you never know.
My theory is that everyone is there to race so I will ride up and yell a
warning or two, unless you do something off the scale, or dangerous to other
riders.
So far reaction has been good. The only person I requested DQ'd had been
warned several times about attacking over the yellow, then about 10Km from the
finish he pops out of the left side puts a shoulder into the guy to his left
pushing him almost off the left side of the road, then attacks in the left
lane, on a small two lane road.
He DQ'd himself.
Bill C

[TritonRider]

>From: "Carl Sundquist"

>I solved that problem once by reaching over and ripping the number off of
>riders that were passing me on the left side of the yellow line.

That's one way to make sure the officials know who they are. I even hate the
thought of being with a field in a car because you can't see what's going on
and get a real feel for the race. I don't mind scoring, or pit, or whatever in
one place but if I'm out with a field I want to be able to connect with the
race. There are a lot of really good officials who do a great job from a car. I
don't get the detail they do, but I can be right with "the race" and keep it
safe and let them race.
Bill C

[Bret Wade]

Ilan Vardi wrote:

> As for Masters racing, more intriguing is the drug
> question, as there is probably not too much doubt that a large percentage
> of the riders are high on all kinds of stuff, including the backmarkers.

What makes you think you know anything about this? I'm right in the
middle of it and I'm only certain about one guy, and that's based on
circumstantial and 2nd hand evidence. There are a handful of guys I
suspect, but I don't even have a good rumor to base that on. Are there
expatriate fattie masters meeting you for rides at Vincennes, feeding
you the inside scoop?

I'm not so naive as to think there is no drug use in masters racing, but
I believe the majority are clean. I've never seen any first hand
evidence of drug use.

> -ilan
>
> P.S. "lame fattie master" = redundant twice over.

What makes you think you know anything about this? Were you constantly
dropping the USPS Masters guys on the morning ride while you were at
Stanford? Did they suffer badly on your wheel until you popped them? If
not, what makes you think you know anything about this?

At least Kurgan has some experience upon which to base his odd notions.

Bret

[warren]

In article t>, Bret
Wade > wrote:

> Ilan Vardi wrote:
>
> > As for Masters racing, more intriguing is the drug
> > question, as there is probably not too much doubt that a large percentage
> > of the riders are high on all kinds of stuff, including the backmarkers.
>
> What makes you think you know anything about this? I'm right in the
> middle of it and I'm only certain about one guy, and that's based on
> circumstantial and 2nd hand evidence. There are a handful of guys I
> suspect, but I don't even have a good rumor to base that on. Are there
> expatriate fattie masters meeting you for rides at Vincennes, feeding
> you the inside scoop?
>
> I'm not so naive as to think there is no drug use in masters racing, but
> I believe the majority are clean. I've never seen any first hand
> evidence of drug use.

I know 3 guys who are at the top of the sport in the 40-55 age groups
and none of them are using drugs to win unless you consider a single
RedBull drink as cheating. If you really get to know them, they simply
don't care enough about the wins to take drugs or cheat in some other
way. They race to win, but the wins aren't their primary motivation.
Among most of the guys I see in the top 15 in 35+ and 45+ races around
here their placings are no surprise. They've got good genetics, mostly
sound training, and they achieve similar success in their work.

>
> > -ilan
> >
> > P.S. "lame fattie master" = redundant twice over.
>
> What makes you think you know anything about this? Were you constantly
> dropping the USPS Masters guys on the morning ride while you were at
> Stanford? Did they suffer badly on your wheel until you popped them? If
> not, what makes you think you know anything about this?

Yeah, that Larry Nolan weighs 210 lbs! How can he be one of the best
45-year old racers in the country and weigh that much?

-WG

[Suz]

"Andy Coggan" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> "PedalChick" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I heard the same thing about the 40-44 group - apparently there was a
> > smooth rotating paceline going on in that TT... when you look at the
> > results, there's probably a group of guys significantly faster than
> > everyone else, but 30 seconds apart, or thereabouts.

Ya know, there are several guys who are close to 30 seconds apart! :-)

Aside from road guards at one
> T-intersection and people at the turnaround, that was the only official
> presence I saw on the whole course.
>

I think I saw 2 moto officials. I don't get the cheating thing either.
It's not like the stakes are SO high, even if you win, all you get is a
gold-colored medal and a jersey that will probably be on sale at Performance
next year. (Still, it's nice to have, even though it's too big... :-)

What did you guys think of the guy who brought his BIKE to the podium, and
then proceeded to hold up the ceremonies while he got several extra pictures
taken of him and his BIKE on the PODIUM. He didn't even win, I think he was
3rd. The winner had to step around the guy's BIKE to get to his spot on the
podium. What a hoser. Hope that wasn't any of you guys.

Suz

[Ilan Vardi]

Bret Wade > wrote in message t>...
> Ilan Vardi wrote:
>
> > As for Masters racing, more intriguing is the drug
> > question, as there is probably not too much doubt that a large percentage
> > of the riders are high on all kinds of stuff, including the backmarkers.
>
> What makes you think you know anything about this? I'm right in the
> middle of it and I'm only certain about one guy, and that's based on
> circumstantial and 2nd hand evidence. There are a handful of guys I
> suspect, but I don't even have a good rumor to base that on.

When I wrote "large percentage", I meant one or two guys. That seems
large enough, given the meaning of masters racing. How is that for
not admitting I was wrong?

> What makes you think you know anything about this? Were you constantly
> dropping the USPS Masters guys on the morning ride while you were at
> Stanford? Did they suffer badly on your wheel until you popped them? If
> not, what makes you think you know anything about this?

I rode against them at the track. Some were much faster than me, but some
them weighed over 200 lbs, not all of which was muscle.

-ilan

[Mark Fennell]

(Bret Wade) wrote in message >...
>
> I once saw a woman who is a many time world champion cheat in a small
> local time trial in Colorado by drafting one of the cat 1 men. She did
> this despite the fact that she was going to take 2 minutes out of her
> closest competition anyway. I figured that there were several possible
> explanations:
>
> 1. still a little unclear about the rules after two decades of elite
> racing
> 2. winning by less than 2 minutes would have been embarrassing
> 3. needed practice cheating for when it might actually be useful
> 4. curious about whether the officials were brave enough to do
> anything
> 5. for some, cheating is a compulsive behavior with no logical
> explanation
>
> Bret

I hate to use his name in a thread titled "lame fattie masters", but
I'm reminded of an incident a few years ago that my friend Lindsay
Blount had with Jeannie Longo. He was off the front in the Masters 40+
at the Visalia Road Race (R.I.P.) and he overtook the P12 women's
field. He went right through on the climb but Jeannie latched on and
got away from her field. Apparently she pulled really fast on the flat
part and the two of them got a big gap. Soon the moto official came up
and told them to separate. According to Lindsay, after talking it over
in broken English/French, they decided to continue on together anyway.
Lindsay was pretty sure he'd be DQ'ed but he thought the opportunity
to ride with Jeannie was worth it. One can only wonder why Jeannie
went along with it, considering she would have won a few hundred
dollars easily. (BTW, they did stay away.)

Mark

[Carl Sundquist]

Mark Fennell wrote:
> I hate to use his name in a thread titled "lame fattie masters", but I'm
> reminded of an incident a few years ago that my friend Lindsay Blount
> had with Jeannie Longo. He was off the front in the Masters 40+ at the
> Visalia Road Race (R.I.P.) and he overtook the P12 women's field. He
> went right through on the climb but Jeannie latched on and got away from
> her field. Apparently she pulled really fast on the flat part and the
> two of them got a big gap. Soon the moto official came up and told them
> to separate. According to Lindsay, after talking it over in broken
> English/French, they decided to continue on together anyway. Lindsay was
> pretty sure he'd be DQ'ed but he thought the opportunity to ride with
> Jeannie was worth it. One can only wonder why Jeannie went along with
> it, considering she would have won a few hundred dollars easily. (BTW,
> they did stay away.)



It's possible that the women's race was not challenging enough for her,
and like like your buddy, it was worth a possible DQ to get in the
effort she felt she needed for the day.



--
>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

[K. J. Papai]

(Ilan Vardi) wrote in message >...
> "Andy Coggan" > wrote in message >...
> > Not long before I flatted during the TT at master nationals on Monday, I
> > found myself rolling up on a couple of riders who looked like they were
> > doing a 2-up TTT. I swear, the guy sitting on was no more than a wheel's
> > length directly behind the other rider, and stayed there for at least a
> > minute - it could have been for even longer, but that's about as long as I
> > had them in sight before a state police car passed me and then tucked in
> > behind them, causing the 2nd rider to drop back a little (but still not the
> > required distance). My question is, what would motivate some lame fattie
> > master to attempt to cheat during an ITT? It's not like the guy had any hope
> > of making the podium...
>
> Sign up on Yahoo Games and you will learn all about cheating. What I
> find interesting are the rationalisations for cheating, like, "you're
> not nice, etc." As for Masters racing, more intriguing is the drug
> question, as there is probably not too much doubt that a large percentage
> of the riders are high on all kinds of stuff, including the backmarkers.
>
> As for you question regarding the fact that the guy had no hope
> of making podium, it might be because master's racing is mostly
> about being the best you can be, even if it means cheating... As I
> said, people will come up with all kinds of rationalisations when under
> stress.

You're pretty much full of **** on this one Ilan.
Talking out your ass without any way to back it up;
being completely removed (academic) from the subject.

-Ken


> -ilan
>
> P.S. "lame fattie master" = redundant twice over.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"warren" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yeah, that Larry Nolan weighs 210 lbs! How can he be one of the best
> 45-year old racers in the country and weigh that much?




That's easy. Because his weight is very close to the mean in that group.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Mark Fennell" > wrote in message
om...

> I hate to use his name in a thread titled "lame fattie masters", but
> I'm reminded of an incident a few years ago that my friend Lindsay
> Blount

Why? It's a good title.

>had with Jeannie Longo. He was off the front in the Masters 40+
> at the Visalia Road Race (R.I.P.) and he overtook the P12 women's
> field. He went right through on the climb but Jeannie latched on and
> got away from her field. Apparently she pulled really fast on the flat
> part and the two of them got a big gap. Soon the moto official came up
> and told them to separate. According to Lindsay, after talking it over
> in broken English/French, they decided to continue on together anyway.
> Lindsay was pretty sure he'd be DQ'ed but he thought the opportunity
> to ride with Jeannie was worth it. One can only wonder why Jeannie
> went along with it, considering she would have won a few hundred
> dollars easily.


Some things are better than money.


>(BTW, they did stay away.)



Like that.


As much as some Masters Fatties would like to imagine they are only one step
away from professional status with their winnings, what we really take with
us from cycling in the long run are the memories. Props to your friend
Lindsay.

[Scott Hendricks]

Bret Wade > wrote in message t>...
> Ilan Vardi wrote:
>
> > As for Masters racing, more intriguing is the drug
> > question, as there is probably not too much doubt that a large percentage
> > of the riders are high on all kinds of stuff, including the backmarkers.
>
> What makes you think you know anything about this? I'm right in the
> middle of it and I'm only certain about one guy, and that's based on
> circumstantial and 2nd hand evidence. There are a handful of guys I
> suspect, but I don't even have a good rumor to base that on. Are there
> expatriate fattie masters meeting you for rides at Vincennes, feeding
> you the inside scoop?
>
> I'm not so naive as to think there is no drug use in masters racing, but
> I believe the majority are clean. I've never seen any first hand
> evidence of drug use.
>
> > -ilan
> >
> > P.S. "lame fattie master" = redundant twice over.
>
> What makes you think you know anything about this? Were you constantly
> dropping the USPS Masters guys on the morning ride while you were at
> Stanford? Did they suffer badly on your wheel until you popped them? If
> not, what makes you think you know anything about this?
>
> At least Kurgan has some experience upon which to base his odd notions.
>
> Bret


does tequila count as a performance enhancer?

[Precious Pup]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>
> "warren" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Yeah, that Larry Nolan weighs 210 lbs! How can he be one of the best
> > 45-year old racers in the country and weigh that much?
>
> That's easy. Because his weight is very close to the mean in that group.

Perhaps his weight is indeed "high" -- I suppose I'll take Warren's word for it. But he isn't the
prototypical fat guy you are thinking of. The dude is very muscular and powerfully built. You don't win
Nevada City if you have a poor power-to-weight ratio; no, not even in the 45+ group.


Nevada City Classic
Nevada City, CA, 6/15/2003

Master 45+, Field 22
1 Lawrence Nolan US Postal Service Masters Cycling Team
2 Wayne Stetina US Postal Service Masters Cycling Team
3 Paul Wolfe
4 Glen Winkel US Postal Service Masters Cycling Team
5 Brian McGuire
6 Mark Caldwell
7 Roger Marquis
8 Kent Bostick
9 Stan Urban
10 David Covington crc/travelocity

[Andrew Martin]

"Suz" > wrote in message >...
> "Andy Coggan" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> > "PedalChick" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > I heard the same thing about the 40-44 group - apparently there was a
> > > smooth rotating paceline going on in that TT... when you look at the
> > > results, there's probably a group of guys significantly faster than
> > > everyone else, but 30 seconds apart, or thereabouts.
>
> Ya know, there are several guys who are close to 30 seconds apart! :-)
>
> Aside from road guards at one
> > T-intersection and people at the turnaround, that was the only official
> > presence I saw on the whole course.
> >
>
> I think I saw 2 moto officials. I don't get the cheating thing either.
> It's not like the stakes are SO high, even if you win, all you get is a
> gold-colored medal and a jersey that will probably be on sale at Performance
> next year. (Still, it's nice to have, even though it's too big... :-)
>
> What did you guys think of the guy who brought his BIKE to the podium, and
> then proceeded to hold up the ceremonies while he got several extra pictures
> taken of him and his BIKE on the PODIUM. He didn't even win, I think he was
> 3rd. The winner had to step around the guy's BIKE to get to his spot on the
> podium. What a hoser. Hope that wasn't any of you guys.
>
> Suz

Suz - where's the pic of YOU with the jersey on? The only pics I see
on NWRaceReport are of you getting ready to start, then some old guy
getting a jersey who I don't even know. Get Eric on it.

-a

[Bart]

"K. J. Papai" > wrote

> You're pretty much full of **** on this one Ilan.
> Talking out your ass without any way to back it up;
> being completely removed (academic) from the subject.
>

Dumbass -


The Tour is over.
Get back to your closets before I lose my patience.

Thanks,

Ronde Gringioni

[Ilan Vardi]

Davey Crockett > wrote in message >...
>
> Some wannabee, no-hoper, neverwozzer ****** that thinks Bobet
> was on Coppi's squad, and tries to con the RBR crowd into
> thinking he knows it all, wouldn't know Sh!t about Sh!t.

> --
> le vent a Dos

Speaking of which, what does "le vent a Dos" mean?

-ilan

[Bret Wade]

(Ilan Vardi) wrote in message >...
> Bret Wade > wrote in message t>...
> > Ilan Vardi wrote:
> >
> > > As for Masters racing, more intriguing is the drug
> > > question, as there is probably not too much doubt that a large percentage
> > > of the riders are high on all kinds of stuff, including the backmarkers.
> >
> > What makes you think you know anything about this? I'm right in the
> > middle of it and I'm only certain about one guy, and that's based on
> > circumstantial and 2nd hand evidence. There are a handful of guys I
> > suspect, but I don't even have a good rumor to base that on.
>
> When I wrote "large percentage", I meant one or two guys. That seems
> large enough, given the meaning of masters racing. How is that for
> not admitting I was wrong?

I'll take that as a retraction. And as an admission that your
mathematical abilities have been greatly exagerated? :-)

>
> > What makes you think you know anything about this? Were you constantly
> > dropping the USPS Masters guys on the morning ride while you were at
> > Stanford? Did they suffer badly on your wheel until you popped them? If
> > not, what makes you think you know anything about this?
>
> I rode against them at the track. Some were much faster than me, but some
> them weighed over 200 lbs, not all of which was muscle.

Some masters are fat. A large percentage are not. Those who can't
control their weight leave the sport. I know two former cat 1s who no
longer race because of obesity. I think that both wish they still
could. One of them won the elite race at Durango Silverton once upon a
time.

Bret

>
> -ilan

[Didier A. Depireux]

Ilan Vardi > wrote:
> Davey Crockett > wrote in message >...
>> le vent a Dos

> Speaking of which, what does "le vent a Dos" mean?

Tail wind.

Didier

--
Didier A Depireux
685 W.Baltimore Str http://neurobiology.umaryland.edu/depireux.htm
Anatomy and Neurobiology Phone: 410-706-1272 (off)
University of Maryland -1273 (lab)
Baltimore MD 21201 USA Fax: 1-410-706-2512

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Bret Wade" > wrote in message
om...
> (Ilan Vardi) wrote in message
>...
> > Bret Wade > wrote in message
t>...
> > > Ilan Vardi wrote:
> > >
> > > > As for Masters racing, more intriguing is the drug
> > > > question, as there is probably not too much doubt that a large
percentage
> > > > of the riders are high on all kinds of stuff, including the
backmarkers.
> > >
> > > What makes you think you know anything about this? I'm right in the
> > > middle of it and I'm only certain about one guy, and that's based on
> > > circumstantial and 2nd hand evidence. There are a handful of guys I
> > > suspect, but I don't even have a good rumor to base that on.
> >
> > When I wrote "large percentage", I meant one or two guys. That seems
> > large enough, given the meaning of masters racing. How is that for
> > not admitting I was wrong?
>
> I'll take that as a retraction. And as an admission that your
> mathematical abilities have been greatly exagerated? :-)
>
> >
> > > What makes you think you know anything about this? Were you constantly
> > > dropping the USPS Masters guys on the morning ride while you were at
> > > Stanford? Did they suffer badly on your wheel until you popped them?
If
> > > not, what makes you think you know anything about this?
> >
> > I rode against them at the track. Some were much faster than me, but
some
> > them weighed over 200 lbs, not all of which was muscle.
>
> Some masters are fat. A large percentage are not.


A large percentage allow the one pound/year rule get them.

The best ones don't. Look at Chris Walker.

[warren]

In article >, Kurgan
Gringioni > wrote:

> A large percentage allow the one pound/year rule get them.
>

What "large percentage" would you say there is in this photo?
http://www.usvh.com/Davis.html

-WG

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"warren" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Kurgan
> Gringioni > wrote:
>
> > A large percentage allow the one pound/year rule get them.
> >
>
> What "large percentage" would you say there is in this photo?
> http://www.usvh.com/Davis.html




Goddamm, what a bunch of one pound/year Fatties (except for 309).


Dudes are all stiff as **** too - look at how upright they are (except for
the obscured rider). 308 and 309 have their arms straight.

[warren]

In article >, Kurgan
Gringioni > wrote:

> "warren" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, Kurgan
> > Gringioni > wrote:
> >
> > > A large percentage allow the one pound/year rule get them.
> > >
> >
> > What "large percentage" would you say there is in this photo?
> > http://www.usvh.com/Davis.html
>
>
>
>
> Goddamm, what a bunch of one pound/year Fatties (except for 309).
>
>
> Dudes are all stiff as **** too - look at how upright they are (except for
> the obscured rider). 308 and 309 have their arms straight.

It's the approach to a dangerous corner on the course right after
another tight corner and the speed there is only about 22mph (coasting
mostly).

-WG

[warren]

In article >, Kurgan
Gringioni > wrote:

> "warren" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, Kurgan
> > Gringioni > wrote:
> >
> > > A large percentage allow the one pound/year rule get them.
> > >
> >
> > What "large percentage" would you say there is in this photo?
> > http://www.usvh.com/Davis.html
>
>
>
>
> Goddamm, what a bunch of one pound/year Fatties (except for 309).

Refresh my memory. IYO, what is the baseline year and what was the
acceptable % bodyfat at that time?

-WG

[Bret Wade]

Scott Hendricks wrote:
> Bret Wade > wrote in message t>...
>
>>Ilan Vardi wrote:
>>
>>
>>>As for Masters racing, more intriguing is the drug
>>>question, as there is probably not too much doubt that a large percentage
>>>of the riders are high on all kinds of stuff, including the backmarkers.
>>
>>What makes you think you know anything about this? I'm right in the
>>middle of it and I'm only certain about one guy, and that's based on
>>circumstantial and 2nd hand evidence. There are a handful of guys I
>>suspect, but I don't even have a good rumor to base that on. Are there
>>expatriate fattie masters meeting you for rides at Vincennes, feeding
>>you the inside scoop?
>>
>>I'm not so naive as to think there is no drug use in masters racing, but
>>I believe the majority are clean. I've never seen any first hand
>>evidence of drug use.
>>
>>
>>>-ilan
>>>
>>>P.S. "lame fattie master" = redundant twice over.
>>
>>What makes you think you know anything about this? Were you constantly
>>dropping the USPS Masters guys on the morning ride while you were at
>>Stanford? Did they suffer badly on your wheel until you popped them? If
>>not, what makes you think you know anything about this?
>>
>>At least Kurgan has some experience upon which to base his odd notions.
>>
>>Bret
>
>
>
> does tequila count as a performance enhancer?

Based on the way I'm riding this week it doesn't seem to be so far. I'll
try increasing the dosage and get back to you.

Bret

[Dashi Toshii]

"Bret Wade" > wrote in message
om...
> (Ilan Vardi) wrote in message
>...
> > Bret Wade > wrote in message
t>...

> Some masters are fat. A large percentage are not. Those who can't
> control their weight leave the sport. I know two former cat 1s who no
> longer race because of obesity. I think that both wish they still
> could. One of them won the elite race at Durango Silverton once upon a
> time.

So they're fat and wish that they could still race.

WTF?

Lose the weight dummies!

Dashii

[Ilan Vardi]

"Didier A. Depireux" > wrote in message >...
> Ilan Vardi > wrote:
> > Davey Crockett > wrote in message >...
> >> le vent a Dos
>
> > Speaking of which, what does "le vent a Dos" mean?
>
> Tail wind.
>
> Didier

I don't think so.

-ilan

[Ken Papai]

"Bart" <bart.-ops.be...
>
> "K. J. Papai" <ken.com> wrote
>
> > You're pretty much full of **** on this one Ilan.
> > Talking out your ass without any way to back it up;
> > being completely removed (academic) from the subject.
> >
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> The Tour is over.
> Get back to your closets before I lose my patience.

Closets? WTF??
That makes Zero Sense Bart.

[Robert Chung]

Bret Wade wrote:
> I'll take that as a retraction. And as an admission that your
> mathematical abilities have been greatly exagerated? :-)

I think it would be moderately difficult to exaggerate either his
mathematical or his satirical abilities.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Bret Wade" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Dashi Toshii wrote:
>
> > "Bret Wade" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> (Ilan Vardi) wrote in message
> >
> > >...
> >
> >>>Bret Wade > wrote in message
> >
> > t>...
> >
> >
> >>Some masters are fat. A large percentage are not. Those who can't
> >>control their weight leave the sport. I know two former cat 1s who no
> >>longer race because of obesity. I think that both wish they still
> >>could. One of them won the elite race at Durango Silverton once upon a
> >>time.
> >
> >
> > So they're fat and wish that they could still race.
> >
> > WTF?
> >
> > Lose the weight dummies!
> >
> > Dashii
>
> Sound advice. But the point was that they're not entirely in control of
> their lives.



Dudes sound like perfect candidates for Masters Fattiedom.

[Bruce Gilbert]

"warren" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Kurgan
> Gringioni > wrote:
>
> > "warren" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >, Kurgan
> > > Gringioni > wrote:
> > >
> > > > A large percentage allow the one pound/year rule get them.
> > > >
> > >
> > > What "large percentage" would you say there is in this photo?
> > > http://www.usvh.com/Davis.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Goddamm, what a bunch of one pound/year Fatties (except for 309).
> >
> >
> > Dudes are all stiff as **** too - look at how upright they are (except
for
> > the obscured rider). 308 and 309 have their arms straight.
>
> It's the approach to a dangerous corner on the course right after
> another tight corner and the speed there is only about 22mph (coasting
> mostly).
>
> -WG

For next year's Masters races, I'm going to sell the full race kits. They
will include handlebar streamers, Spokey-dokes, Beano and Metamucil and
leg-band name tags.

Biemme had the best idea a couple of years ago. They made a pair of bib
shorts with a great horizontal fly. I have some. Being an aging master
racer, I have to pee every ten miles anyway. It's just like the old graffiti
line: Puritans with short muskets, step up closer to the firing line...
Everything is solvable with technology.

Forgot my name again!
X

[Bruce Gilbert]

"Kurgan Gringioni" > wrote in
message t...
>
> "Bret Wade" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > Dashi Toshii wrote:
> >
> > > "Bret Wade" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > >
> > (Ilan Vardi) wrote in message
> > >
> > > >...
> > >
> > >>>Bret Wade > wrote in message
> > >
> > > t>...
> > >
> > >
> > >>Some masters are fat. A large percentage are not. Those who can't
> > >>control their weight leave the sport. I know two former cat 1s who no
> > >>longer race because of obesity. I think that both wish they still
> > >>could. One of them won the elite race at Durango Silverton once upon a
> > >>time.
> > >
> > >
> > > So they're fat and wish that they could still race.
> > >
> > > WTF?
> > >
> > > Lose the weight dummies!
> > >
> > > Dashii
> >
> > Sound advice. But the point was that they're not entirely in control of
> > their lives.
>
>
>
> Dudes sound like perfect candidates for Masters Fattiedom.
>
>
If you rotten kids are lucky enough, you will live long enough to be the
subject of age jokes. Remember, insanity is hereditary,,, You get it from
your kids!

Bruce

[Robert Chung]

Bret Wade wrote:
> Robert Chung wrote:
>> Bret Wade wrote:
>>
>>> I'll take that as a retraction. And as an admission that your
>>> mathematical abilities have been greatly exagerated? :-)
>>
>> I think it would be moderately difficult to exaggerate either his
>> mathematical or his satirical abilities.
>
> You're going to have to explain the joke to me then. My density level
> lies somewhere between pappy and anyone with a french address and I just
> don't get it.

I'm not sure there's a joke--at least, not one with a punchline. The
closest I can come is to say that I don't think Ilan is a troller. I think
he's a fly fisherman and some of his lures are very dry.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"warren" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Kurgan
> Gringioni > wrote:
>
> > "warren" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >, Kurgan
> > > Gringioni > wrote:
> > >
> > > > A large percentage allow the one pound/year rule get them.
> > > >
> > >
> > > What "large percentage" would you say there is in this photo?
> > > http://www.usvh.com/Davis.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Goddamm, what a bunch of one pound/year Fatties (except for 309).
> >
> >
> > Dudes are all stiff as **** too - look at how upright they are (except
for
> > the obscured rider). 308 and 309 have their arms straight.
>
> It's the approach to a dangerous corner on the course right after
> another tight corner and the speed there is only about 22mph (coasting
> mostly).



You picked that photo as the epitome of the Fattie Master aesthetic, not me.

[warren]

In article >, Kurgan
Gringioni > wrote:

> "warren" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, Kurgan
> > Gringioni > wrote:
> >
> > > "warren" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > In article >, Kurgan
> > > > Gringioni > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A large percentage allow the one pound/year rule get them.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > What "large percentage" would you say there is in this photo?
> > > > http://www.usvh.com/Davis.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Goddamm, what a bunch of one pound/year Fatties (except for 309).
> > >
> > >
> > > Dudes are all stiff as **** too - look at how upright they are (except
> for
> > > the obscured rider). 308 and 309 have their arms straight.
> >
> > It's the approach to a dangerous corner on the course right after
> > another tight corner and the speed there is only about 22mph (coasting
> > mostly).
>
>
>
> You picked that photo as the epitome of the Fattie Master aesthetic, not me.

I never ascribed that meaning to it. It's just one of only a few photos
that I have.

BTW, you didn't answer my question about the acceptable baseline year
and bf %.

-WG

[Bret Wade]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> "Bret Wade" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>Dashi Toshii wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Bret Wade" > wrote in message
om...
>>>
>>>
(Ilan Vardi) wrote in message
>>>
>...
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Bret Wade > wrote in message
>>>
t>...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Some masters are fat. A large percentage are not. Those who can't
>>>>control their weight leave the sport. I know two former cat 1s who no
>>>>longer race because of obesity. I think that both wish they still
>>>>could. One of them won the elite race at Durango Silverton once upon a
>>>>time.
>>>
>>>
>>>So they're fat and wish that they could still race.
>>>
>>>WTF?
>>>
>>>Lose the weight dummies!
>>>
>>>Dashii
>>
>>Sound advice. But the point was that they're not entirely in control of
>>their lives.
>
>
>
>
> Dudes sound like perfect candidates for Masters Fattiedom.

No, these guys are long gone. They've slipped out of the laughing group
and into the broom wagon. They've paid their last late fee, protested
their final top-20 result, and insulted their last promoter. They are
ex-racers.

That's what happens to the few people who do fit your one pound per year
description. The rest of us show up at the about the same weight year to
year.

Bret (same as I ever was)

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"warren" > wrote in message
...
> > You picked that photo as the epitome of the Fattie Master aesthetic, not
me.
>
> I never ascribed that meaning to it. It's just one of only a few photos
> that I have.
>
> BTW, you didn't answer my question about the acceptable baseline year
> and bf %.




Well, it differs for everyone. If someone was obese at 20, then that
wouldn't be acceptable right?

I picked 20, just because that's where it works for me, individually.

Generally, I'd say that around 10% for non-athletes is a good level. For a
male competitive cyclist, around 6%.

Personally, if I'm much above 10%, then the BMI is outside of what is deemed
optimal with regards to weight-related illnesses.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Bret Wade" > wrote in message
link.net...

> That's what happens to the few people who do fit your one pound per year
> description.




Dude, it's more than a few racers. Do a 1/2 race, then a Masters race.

Notice the 20lb. difference. Or the uphill speed difference (directly
related to the 20lb. difference).

[Bret Wade]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

> "Bret Wade" > wrote in message
> link.net...
>
>
>>That's what happens to the few people who do fit your one pound per year
>>description.
>
>
>
>
>
> Dude, it's more than a few racers. Do a 1/2 race, then a Masters race.
>
> Notice the 20lb. difference. Or the uphill speed difference (directly
> related to the 20lb. difference).

I'm talking about your one pound per year rule, not whether masters have
the same body composition as elite climbers. It's your damn fixation, so
try to stick with it. It doesn't exist except in a few rare cases.

Bret

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Bret Wade" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>
> > "Bret Wade" > wrote in message
> > link.net...
> >
> >
> >>That's what happens to the few people who do fit your one pound per year
> >>description.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dude, it's more than a few racers. Do a 1/2 race, then a Masters race.
> >
> > Notice the 20lb. difference. Or the uphill speed difference (directly
> > related to the 20lb. difference).
>
> I'm talking about your one pound per year rule, not whether masters have
> the same body composition as elite climbers. It's your damn fixation, so
> try to stick with it. It doesn't exist except in a few rare cases.



Dumbass -

The masters weight 20 lbs. more than the 1/2, on average, because of the one
lb./year rule.

Go enter a 1/2 race and you'll see the difference. And yes, there are skinny
Masters, but overall, it's 20lbs. per racer.

[Ilan Vardi]

(Ilan Vardi) wrote in message >...
> "Didier A. Depireux" > wrote in message >...
> > Ilan Vardi > wrote:
> > > Davey Crockett > wrote in message >...
> > >> le vent a Dos
>
> > > Speaking of which, what does "le vent a Dos" mean?
> >
> > Tail wind.
> >
> > Didier
>
> I don't think so.

That is to say: "vent de dos" = tailwind,
"vent a dos" = Davey Crockett's incorrect French.

-ilan

[warren]

In article >, Kurgan
Gringioni > wrote:

> "Bret Wade" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> >
> > > "Bret Wade" > wrote in message
> > > link.net...
> > >
> > >
> > >>That's what happens to the few people who do fit your one pound per year
> > >>description.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dude, it's more than a few racers. Do a 1/2 race, then a Masters race.
> > >
> > > Notice the 20lb. difference. Or the uphill speed difference (directly
> > > related to the 20lb. difference).
> >
> > I'm talking about your one pound per year rule, not whether masters have
> > the same body composition as elite climbers. It's your damn fixation, so
> > try to stick with it. It doesn't exist except in a few rare cases.
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
> The masters weight 20 lbs. more than the 1/2, on average, because of the one
> lb./year rule.
>
> Go enter a 1/2 race and you'll see the difference. And yes, there are skinny
> Masters, but overall, it's 20lbs. per racer.

Actually I see more fat guys in the Sr. 3's than in my 35+ 123 races.

-WG

[Precious Pup]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>
> "Bret Wade" > wrote in message
> link.net...
>
> > That's what happens to the few people who do fit your one pound per year
> > description.
>
> Dude, it's more than a few racers. Do a 1/2 race, then a Masters race.
>
> Notice the 20lb. difference. Or the uphill speed difference (directly
> related to the 20lb. difference).


Hah hah, I recall that "difference." One year I did Nevada City where Fast Freddy won the Masters 1/2/3 over
Benton Hart, Phil Buhl, Brian McGuire, and Larry Nolan to name a few. I held on to Freddy until about 10 were
left, but it is a course with nowhere to hide (the same exact thing happens in the Pro/1/2 div). Benton Hart
won the Prestige Road Trophy for 1/2's in NorCal that *same* year over second place Bobby Simpson (whom I
trained with from time to time), a superb Cat 1 climber. I suppose Benton was "going easy" at Nevada City, as
opposed to the rest of the Pro/1/2 races he did that year (that or the rest of the NorCal 1/2's just decided
to be nice and hand it to him). The Pro/1/2's are the usually faster than the Masters 1/2/3's, but not
greatly so. That is a fact. Deal with it.

Masters 1/2/3 races are not as long -- they don't need to have the "sustain for 2 hours" endurance
conditioning, so they can go pretty fast for 50 min.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"warren" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >
> >
> > Dumbass -
> >
> > The masters weight 20 lbs. more than the 1/2, on average, because of the
one
> > lb./year rule.
> >
> > Go enter a 1/2 race and you'll see the difference. And yes, there are
skinny
> > Masters, but overall, it's 20lbs. per racer.
>
> Actually I see more fat guys in the Sr. 3's than in my 35+ 123 races.



Dumbass -

we're not talking about the 3s. We're talking Masters.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Precious Pup" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> >
> > "Bret Wade" > wrote in message
> > link.net...
> >
> > > That's what happens to the few people who do fit your one pound per
year
> > > description.
> >
> > Dude, it's more than a few racers. Do a 1/2 race, then a Masters race.
> >
> > Notice the 20lb. difference. Or the uphill speed difference (directly
> > related to the 20lb. difference).
>
>
> Hah hah, I recall that "difference." One year I did Nevada City where
Fast Freddy won the Masters 1/2/3 over
> Benton Hart, Phil Buhl, Brian McGuire, and Larry Nolan to name a few. I
held on to Freddy until about 10 were
> left, but it is a course with nowhere to hide (the same exact thing
happens in the Pro/1/2 div). Benton Hart
> won the Prestige Road Trophy for 1/2's in NorCal that *same* year over
second place Bobby Simpson (whom I
> trained with from time to time), a superb Cat 1 climber. I suppose Benton
was "going easy" at Nevada City, as
> opposed to the rest of the Pro/1/2 races he did that year (that or the
rest of the NorCal 1/2's just decided
> to be nice and hand it to him). The Pro/1/2's are the usually faster than
the Masters 1/2/3's, but not
> greatly so. That is a fact. Deal with it.
>
> Masters 1/2/3 races are not as long -- they don't need to have the
"sustain for 2 hours" endurance
> conditioning, so they can go pretty fast for 50 min.


Dumbass -

The Masters are faster than the TdF. That says it all.

[warren]

In article >, Kurgan
Gringioni > wrote:

> "warren" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dumbass -
> > >
> > > The masters weight 20 lbs. more than the 1/2, on average, because of the
> > > one
> > > lb./year rule.

> > Actually I see more fat guys in the Sr. 3's than in my 35+ 123 races.
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
> we're not talking about the 3s. We're talking Masters.

Sorry, I thought we were talking about the effect of age and one's
propensity to be fat, and since the 3's have an average age lower than
the masters then according to your little argument the 3's should not
be as fat as the masters. As you were.

-WG

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"warren" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Kurgan
> Gringioni > wrote:
>
> > "warren" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dumbass -
> > > >
> > > > The masters weight 20 lbs. more than the 1/2, on average, because of
the
> > > > one
> > > > lb./year rule.
>
> > > Actually I see more fat guys in the Sr. 3's than in my 35+ 123 races.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dumbass -
> >
> > we're not talking about the 3s. We're talking Masters.
>
> Sorry, I thought we were talking about the effect of age and one's
> propensity to be fat, and since the 3's have an average age lower than
> the masters then according to your little argument the 3's should not
> be as fat as the masters. As you were.


Fatness and Cat 3-ness may not be coincidental, but causal.

[Precious Pup]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>
> "Bret Wade" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > > Dumbass -
> > >
> > > The masters weight 20 lbs. more than the 1/2, on average, because of the
> one
> > > lb./year rule.
> > >
> > > Go enter a 1/2 race and you'll see the difference. And yes, there are
> skinny
> > > Masters, but overall, it's 20lbs. per racer.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Dumbass,
> >
> > According to your one pound per year rule, a 55+ field should average 35
> > pounds overweight. Find one guy in the top twenty that fits that
> > description here:
>
> Dumbass -
>
> I know that the Masters are fatter (and slower) from experience - doing a
> race one year in the Pro1/2 and not being able to make the group - doing the
> same course in the Masters the next year and being the fastest climber.

Dumbass (way to avoid his question),

Races vary from year to year. One year a given race is absolutely brutal, the next not so bad. There aren't
any pro's in the masters races. To maintain your beliefs, you grasp at any anecdotal evidence.

> The difference? Some wattage, some recovery, but mostly weight.

Dumbass,

No, you're wrong as usual. Mostly bigger fields, more Cat 1's, more Cat 2's, and a few pro's. There is
simply more total talent in a Pro/1/2 race. There is *always* another dude to give it a go in larger fields.
That alone will make it harder. Weight is simply not the biggest factor for the 35+ races. Less total field
talent is pretty much *the* important difference, not weight. Remember one of your followers pointing out
that 35+ races were mostly 3's? No wonder it's easier (or can be)...Dumbass...not one pro and a bunch of
3's. Thanks for the example of rbr god supernatural dumbassedness.

> Masters make good wattage.

True. You don't all of the sudden have a quantum difference in natural ability when you have your 35th
birthday. This very fact is what leads to another complaint about masters: that their ability is *not* all of
the sudden diminished at 35 yo (and the whiner question: why should they have "their own" race?).

> They don't recover as well.

False.

> They are much heavier.

Bull**** generalization. *Some* are, the heavier masters riders do tend to stick to flatter races (hello,
like this is different than any other race division); and where that is true, it is more the "after 40" group
from my anecdotal experience. In any case, even if some 44 yo masters racer is 15 lb over his/her 30 yo
weight, so what? They are probably very healthy and almost certainly more healthy than most of the general
population at their age. To make fun of someone who puts a lot of effort into staying in decent condition is
just plain stupid. So what if they can't go uphill like a slim 30 yo and don't enter hilly races? It is so
nice that you're so concerned with their lives: stalker freak.

> When it goes uphill, it shows, bigtime.

Dumbass,

I've on occasion timed the laps for both when there are hills (crits). They are often pretty close. The 1/2s
need to go many more laps (have much better endurance) and there are bigger fields and of course more
attacks. No one is disputing that Pro/1/2 races are harder. That's exactly why I didn't want to upgrade to
Cat 2. When there are some key pro's the speed delta can become more noticable (and more imporantly, more
sustained). Like Wohlberg at Cat's Hill last year for example. (Who by the way is 38 yo.)

> All you Dumbasses who are trying to defend the Masters don't
> regularly do 1/2 races, specifically, the ones that go uphill.

Dumbass,

Masters that don't do 1/2 races aren't staying out just because of the hills. They do masters races because
they are shorter (don't need to train as many miles for the endurance), a bit slower, and the fields are
smaller with less total talent. They "stay out of" *flat* Pro/1/2 races too, so the claim that it is just
because of hills is bogus. Then again, a decent number of dudes enter both races on a given day. The defense
only occurs because you are so out to lunch. I've climbed with plenty of pros and 1s and 2s. They were
faster because they were just plain better, not because I had a higher BMI.

> If you did, you would have
> a different opinion.

My opinion is that you are a chicken**** candyass. You blabber on and on about how "easy" the masters races
are. Then you talk about how "burned out" you are.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1860191777d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=QaN9a.4931%24J51.964230%40news1.news.adelphia .net

If it is so easy, and you make fun of others for taking it too seriously, then why not have a little fun since
you won't need to work very hard to be relatively good in the slow masters races? As best I can tell, it is
because you are talking out your ass in Kunich-like style. You sit in the armchair and complain and criticize
while eating low-fat granola bars, chicken**** candyass.

[warren]

In article >, Precious Pup
> wrote:

> > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> You don't all of the sudden have a quantum difference in natural
> ability when you have your 35th
> birthday. This very fact is what leads to another complaint about masters:
> that their ability is *not* all of
> the sudden diminished at 35 yo (and the whiner question: why should they have
> "their own" race?).

It's not suddenly diminished, but it is less than when they were 30
years old. I've been told the rate of decline does increase after age
35 or so.
>
> > They don't recover as well.
>
> False.

Are you saying that you think a 35 year old recovers as well as a 25
year old or a 30 year old, all else being equal? This disagrees with
what I've been told. But OTOH, if the masters who don't have good
recovery were to improve the efficiency and accuracy of their training
they could greatly improve their recovery.

> You blabber on and on
> about how "easy" the masters races
> are. Then you talk about how "burned out" you are.

I don't remember him saying he thought masters races were "easy".

-WG

[Precious Pup]

warren wrote:
>

> > > They don't recover as well.
> >
> > False.
>
> Are you saying that you think a 35 year old recovers as well as a 25
> year old or a 30 year old, all else being equal?

I'm talking about efforts within a race. If I'm fit, I recover from hard
efforts very quickly. To me, that is one of the important definitions of
fitness.

> > You blabber on and on
> > about how "easy" the masters races
> > are. Then you talk about how "burned out" you are.
>
> I don't remember him saying he thought masters races were "easy".


I don't blame you for not paying attention to what he says. In fact, I think
that's a better idea than the one I had.

[TritonRider]

>From: Precious Pup

>I don't blame you for not paying attention to what he says. In fact, I think
>that's a better idea than the one I had.

Henry's totally obsessed on this one. He has just enough truth to his argument
to at least require discussion. I think it's pretty clear that we need to write
his opinion off as possibly jealous, and most bitter.
Bill C

[warren]

In article >, Precious Pup
> wrote:

> warren wrote:
> >
>
> > > > They don't recover as well.
> > >
> > > False.
> >
> > Are you saying that you think a 35 year old recovers as well as a 25
> > year old or a 30 year old, all else being equal?
>
> I'm talking about efforts within a race.

Ah, okay.

> If I'm fit, I recover from hard
> efforts very quickly. To me, that is one of the important definitions of
> fitness.

I was told exactly that.

> > > You blabber on and on
> > > about how "easy" the masters races
> > > are. Then you talk about how "burned out" you are.
> >
> > I don't remember him saying he thought masters races were "easy".
>
>
> I don't blame you for not paying attention to what he says. In fact, I think
> that's a better idea than the one I had.

That's funny! Sometimes it's on a "Do I need to know?" basis, and
sometimes it's on a "Do I need to care?" basis.

-WG

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"warren" > wrote in message
...
> > >
> > > Sorry, I thought we were talking about the effect of age and one's
> > > propensity to be fat, and since the 3's have an average age lower than
> > > the masters then according to your little argument the 3's should not
> > > be as fat as the masters. As you were.
> >
> >
> > Fatness and Cat 3-ness may not be coincidental, but causal.
>
> So why can't we apply that same loophole to the masters? A guy is fat
> so he can't be as fast as a Cat 2 so he can't race with the cat 2's so
> he races with the masters, or 3's. Why aren't you obsessing about the
> young guys in the 3's who are fat even though they can't use the 1
> yr/lb method?
>
> Masters are fat because they're old but you say that's bad. 3's are fat
> because...?



Can't apply that logic because the ones who are not fat (and train, and have
a modium of talent) are not Cat 3s.


The thing I rail against is that the 1 lb./year thing is accepted by our
society in general. Studies of obesity related disease tells us that, from a
health standpoint, it is wrong.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"warren" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Precious Pup
> > wrote:
>
> > > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> > You don't all of the sudden have a quantum difference in natural
> > ability when you have your 35th
> > birthday. This very fact is what leads to another complaint about
masters:
> > that their ability is *not* all of
> > the sudden diminished at 35 yo (and the whiner question: why should they
have
> > "their own" race?).
>
> It's not suddenly diminished, but it is less than when they were 30
> years old. I've been told the rate of decline does increase after age
> 35 or so.
> >
> > > They don't recover as well.
> >
> > False.
>
> Are you saying that you think a 35 year old recovers as well as a 25
> year old or a 30 year old, all else being equal? This disagrees with
> what I've been told. But OTOH, if the masters who don't have good
> recovery were to improve the efficiency and accuracy of their training
> they could greatly improve their recovery.
>
> > You blabber on and on
> > about how "easy" the masters races
> > are. Then you talk about how "burned out" you are.
>
> I don't remember him saying he thought masters races were "easy".



You are correct. I say that they are easier (than Pro 1/2).

That doesn't mean that either one of them are easy, at least not to win.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Precious Pup" > wrote in message
...
> Dumbass (way to avoid his question),
>
> Races vary from year to year. One year a given race is absolutely brutal,
the next not so bad. There aren't
> any pro's in the masters races. To maintain your beliefs, you grasp at
any anecdotal evidence.



Dumbass -

I raced for 11 years. 600 races. There aren't scientific studies on masters
racing vs. 1/2 racing, therefore, the ONLY evidence is anecdotal/empirical.

[Precious Pup]

TritonRider wrote:
>
> >From: Precious Pup
>
> >I don't blame you for not paying attention to what he says. In fact, I think
> >that's a better idea than the one I had.
>
> Henry's totally obsessed on this one.

He thinks it is cool to make fun of people with a weight problem, especially if
they are middle-aged. He has some weird thing I can never understand about not
liking middle-aged/old people to participate in sports, or he doesn't like it
because they gradually lose their ability, or something like that. He's
incoherent, so I'm still not sure what he's trying to get at with all the
ranting. He's kind of like a parrot: masters fattie, masters fattie, brawk
whi-hoo. I say that because when he does it, it is most often a non sequitur.


> He has just enough truth to his argument
> to at least require discussion.


Scratch the surface a little. It all falls away.


> I think it's pretty clear that we need to write
> his opinion off as possibly jealous, and most bitter.


Maybe he really did get his ass kicked by some old fat guy, or he just cowered
away or something. I'm not fat, and probably can't be fat. But I haven't lived
a fat persons life, so I don't make fun of them.

Someone tell that damn bird to shut up.

[warren]

In article >, Kurgan
Gringioni > wrote:

> The thing I rail against is that the 1 lb./year thing is accepted by our
> society in general.

I think the really scary thing coming is that there are alot more fat
teenagers and 20-somethings now, and I doubt they'll avoid the 1lb/yr.
In about 10 years from now there are going to be a LOT of fat 30 year
olds.

-WG

[gwhite]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>
> "Precious Pup" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Dumbass (way to avoid his question),
> >
> > Races vary from year to year. One year a given race is absolutely brutal,
> the next not so bad. There aren't
> > any pro's in the masters races. To maintain your beliefs, you grasp at
> any anecdotal evidence.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> I raced for 11 years. 600 races. There aren't scientific studies on masters
> racing vs. 1/2 racing, therefore, the ONLY evidence is anecdotal/empirical.


Then take your own advice and get a dose of perspective. You're completely
out-of-whack with your obsessions about fat and age. It might be funny once in
a while, where it actually fit (but it probably is never funny). Instead, you
just come off as spiteful prick, for reasons no one is clear on. You decide if
that's how you want to live. I'll decide for myself if I want to race masters
races. I don't need some snearing chicken**** sideline critic. If I get beat
by some overweight bike racer, that's my problem, not yours.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"warren" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Kurgan
> Gringioni > wrote:
>
> > The thing I rail against is that the 1 lb./year thing is accepted by our
> > society in general.
>
> I think the really scary thing coming is that there are alot more fat
> teenagers and 20-somethings now, and I doubt they'll avoid the 1lb/yr.
> In about 10 years from now there are going to be a LOT of fat 30 year
> olds.



Those people will gain 2 lbs./year.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"TritonRider" > wrote in message
...
> >From: Precious Pup
>
> >I don't blame you for not paying attention to what he says. In fact, I
think
> >that's a better idea than the one I had.
>
> Henry's totally obsessed on this one. He has just enough truth to his
argument
> to at least require discussion. I think it's pretty clear that we need to
write
> his opinion off as possibly jealous, and most bitter.




Of Masters Racers?


Dumbass, you've accused me of sucking and being jealous. I was not God's
Gift to cycling, but I'm certainly not "jealous" of Masters. Do a search of
"Burlant" "Chang" and masters or something like that - we had a thread
awhile back where I won like 50% of the Masters races that we were both in.
Burlant was my good luck charm.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"gwhite" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> >
> > "Precious Pup" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Dumbass (way to avoid his question),
> > >
> > > Races vary from year to year. One year a given race is absolutely
brutal,
> > the next not so bad. There aren't
> > > any pro's in the masters races. To maintain your beliefs, you grasp
at
> > any anecdotal evidence.
> >
> > Dumbass -
> >
> > I raced for 11 years. 600 races. There aren't scientific studies on
masters
> > racing vs. 1/2 racing, therefore, the ONLY evidence is
anecdotal/empirical.
>
>
> Then take your own advice and get a dose of perspective. You're
completely
> out-of-whack with your obsessions about fat and age.


Actually no.

I think our entire culture overeats. The 1 lb./year thing is accepted as
"natural", but other cultures do not have that characteristic. As a result
they do not have the epidemic of obesity related disease.

Obesity related disease will soon pass smoking as the #1 cause of
preventable death. It will affect your friends and family as surely as it
will mine.

[TritonRider]

>From: "Kurgan Gringioni"

>Of Masters Racers?
>
>
>Dumbass, you've accused me of sucking and being jealous. I was not God's
>Gift to cycling, but I'm certainly not "jealous" of Masters. Do a search of
>"Burlant" "Chang" and masters or something like that - we had a thread
>awhile back where I won like 50% of the Masters races that we were both in.
>Burlant was my good luck charm.
>
>
>

What I said was you shouldn't give them **** if you can't beat them. I know
how good you were. I wasn't lazy enough to not look it up. I had no idea why
you weren't racing. I was under the impression it was mostly due to injuries.
That said, I have absolutely no idea why this whole topic gets you so wired.
People have got to die of something eventually. If they want to go the fat
route, that's very little skin off my nose. Even "FAT" masters racers are going
to be healthier and much fitter than fat couch potatoes.
I think anyone who gets out there and races deserves a pat on the back. I
don't see the big deal with the age categories, or jerseys is. If someone is
willing to do what it takes to get one more power to them. We all know where
they rank in worth as it's related senior/junior championships so what's the
big deal?
Bill C

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"TritonRider" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Kurgan Gringioni"
>
> I think anyone who gets out there and races deserves a pat on the back. I
> don't see the big deal with the age categories, or jerseys is. If someone
is
> willing to do what it takes to get one more power to them. We all know
where
> they rank in worth as it's related senior/junior championships so what's
the
> big deal?




A lot of the Masters Fatties have a soft spot in their ego that's easy to
hit and it's good clean fun getting them wound up.

[gwhite]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>

> A lot of the Masters Fatties have a soft spot in their ego that's easy to
> hit and it's good clean fun getting them wound up.


Your life is full.

[gwhite]

Brawk whi-hoo wrote:
>
> "gwhite" > wrote in message ...
> >
> >
> > Then take your own advice and get a dose of perspective. You're
> completely
> > out-of-whack with your obsessions about fat and age.
>
> Actually no.
>
> I think our entire culture overeats. The 1 lb./year thing is accepted as
> "natural", but other cultures do not have that characteristic. As a result
> they do not have the epidemic of obesity related disease.

Knucklehead, it isn't *only* eating that affects the weight patterns across age
of a given peoples (or an individual). Look at the Nilotic people and maybe the
Manus too for "closed" populations of distinct physical type as extreme cases
(using extreme cases because they help illustrate the idea more clearly than
marginal cases). Physiological type is important when considering weight curves
across age. Not everyone has the innate ability to lay on a lot of fat (like
me).

> Obesity related disease will soon pass smoking as the #1 cause of
> preventable death. It will affect your friends and family as surely as it
> will mine.


You can be concerned about the health issues others without being an asshole
about it. I've never walked in a fat person's shoes, so I don't see the point
in sneering at them. The concern about American's "overeating" and "obesity" is
hardly new. I have a book published in the 1950's which makes a pointed
reference to that very problem.

I don't dispute that many people today would do themselves a favor by watching
their weight and maintaining some cardiovascular fitness. I don't dispute that
"the problem" is getting worse. That said, of all the people to bitch about,
masters racers are doing much better than their peers in the general population
with regard to both weight and cardiovascular fitness. That is what Bill C is
trying to get through your thick noggin. You make no sense. You come off as an
asshole. You have no perspective.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"warren" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >
> > A lot of the Masters Fatties have a soft spot in their ego that's easy
to
> > hit and it's good clean fun getting them wound up.
>
> Since that is how you feel you may be happier in the long run if you
> spent more time addressing your issues (start with finding healthier
> ways of making yourself happy) instead of deriving pleasure by
> antagonizing other people.




Dumbass -

Yes, it is good fun antagonizing you Fatties. I enjoy it thouroughly.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"gwhite" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> >
>
> > A lot of the Masters Fatties have a soft spot in their ego that's easy
to
> > hit and it's good clean fun getting them wound up.
>
>
> Your life is full.


I concur, but the Masters Fatties who are mad at me are but a small part of
it.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"gwhite" > wrote in message ...
>

>
> You can be concerned about the health issues others without being an
asshole
> about it. I've never walked in a fat person's shoes, so I don't see the
point
> in sneering at them. The concern about American's "overeating" and
"obesity" is
> hardly new. I have a book published in the 1950's which makes a pointed
> reference to that very problem.
>
> I don't dispute that many people today would do themselves a favor by
watching
> their weight and maintaining some cardiovascular fitness. I don't dispute
that
> "the problem" is getting worse. That said, of all the people to bitch
about,
> masters racers are doing much better than their peers in the general
population
> with regard to both weight and cardiovascular fitness.

<snip>



Dumbass -

It's definitely not kosher to do it in our culture in general and I don't do
that.

I do it in the bike racing arena because it's OK to rip on Fatties here.

Why? Because:


More Fat = Less Performance


And no, I wouldn't do it in rec.bicycles.soc or any other bicycle newsgroup.
Only the racing newsgroup.

[Benjamin Weiner]

warren > wrote:
> Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:

> > A lot of the Masters Fatties have a soft spot in their ego that's easy to
> > hit and it's good clean fun getting them wound up.

> Since that is how you feel you may be happier in the long run if you
> spent more time addressing your issues (start with finding healthier
> ways of making yourself happy) instead of deriving pleasure by
> antagonizing other people.

Didn't somebody start this thread (or was it another thread)
to talk smack about sketchy Cat 3s?

It may be perfectly well-justified smack, but jeez, you guys
are making me wish the TdF would come back.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

"Dick Durbin" > wrote in message
om...
> > > Then take your own advice and get a dose of perspective. You're
> > completely
> > > out-of-whack with your obsessions about fat and age.
> >
> >
> > Actually no.
> >
> > I think our entire culture overeats. The 1 lb./year thing is accepted as
> > "natural", but other cultures do not have that characteristic. As a
result
> > they do not have the epidemic of obesity related disease.
> >
> > Obesity related disease will soon pass smoking as the #1 cause of
> > preventable death. It will affect your friends and family as surely as
it
> > will mine.
>
> Nobody is denying that too many Americans are fat. What he is
> complaining about is your constant use of the term "fattie masters."
> If you were using it to point out the obesity epidemic it might be
> appropriate.


Dick -

That's what I'm doing. The 1 lb./year rule is accepted, even in an endurance
sport community like bicycle racing.