"Social rider" beef

[psycholist]

Yesterday I did about my bazillionth century ride. I'm 49 years old and
I've done lots of centuries in my day.

My local club put on this ride ... against my protestations because they
scheduled it head-to-head with a very well-established century that's been
going on not too many miles away. I thought it was rather rude to do that.

The guy who volunteered to put on the ride had never done it before and is a
fairly new rider. I coached him over the months leading up to the event
about the things I've seen that make the difference between a good event and
a bad event. He didn't listen. In fact, he committed what I told him would
be the CARDINAL SIN. He marked the course poorly and got the riders lost.

Well, I should qualify that. He got the fast riders lost. He personally
rode out in front of the slow groups and stood at each turn to make sure
those riders didn't miss anything. But I was in the front group and we'd
blown by and missed his ridiculously inadequate markings long before he got
out to try to direct traffic.

So I sent him an e-mail after the fact to ask him what happened. He gave me
the classic line that sets me off every single time ... "it was supposed to
be a social ride, not a race ... the social riders didn't have any trouble."

MAN that burns me up. Since when is there a speed limit on a road ride? We
rode the first 20 miles with 25 guys at an average speed of 25 mph. It was
no big deal. The road was flat. There was a slight tailwind. It was
nothing. But he says he designed things with folks like him in mind ...
folks who ride 15 mph. Well, this guys is about 6' 3" tall and is morbidly
obese (at least by my definition)!

So then he says, "if you'd asked at the rest stops, they'd have told you
which way to go." So then I explained, "I don't stop at rest stops except
maybe once in a 100 mile ride. Our entire lead group only made one stop.
And, how do we stop at a rest stop if we're already off the course after 12
miles?" Again, I got the, "if you weren't racing you'd have been able to
see the marks."

That's such crap. I'm so sick of "social" riders who act like you're doing
something wrong just 'cuz you can, or you just like to, ride faster than
they do. I never hear the fast riders complain about the "social" riders.
But the "social" riders always feel compelled to tell the fast riders how
they should ride.

All you "social" riders reading this, please note the following:

> Riding fast is not a sin. Riding fast does not mean racing. Riding fast
> is entirely relative. If there's a speed limit on a ride, post it ...
> otherwise, you ride the speed you want to and I'll ride the speed I want
> to. For me, the joy of riding an event like that is finding a good, fast
> paceline and then flying along in close formation. It's a special feeling
> that's probably the closest I'll ever come to flying with the Blue Angels.

> Don't tell me why I should be riding. I always hear, "riding is supposed
> to be social." What makes you think the guys at the front don't
> socialize? Just 'cuz you can't imagine talking while riding at our pace,
> that doesn't mean we don't. And we're back in the parking lot hanging out
> and having a good time for a couple hours before y'all show up. AND, you
> can't imagine the bond that can form when a small group of complete
> strangers gets together on the road and forms a tight working group to
> bang out a good time for the ride. I've made many lasting friendships in
> that fellowship of effort.

> Many of you have spouses that ride. Mine doesn't. I like to get my
> rides done and get back to do things with her.

> Also, my life circumstances aren't the same as yours. I have a farm and
> all the chores I need to stay busy. I don't have all day to waste
> socializing on the road. If you do, that's fine. I don't. And that's
> fine, too.

> I don't need to eat all the crap at all the rest stops to feel like I got
> my moneys worth on a ride. It's evident by appearances that many of you
> do. That's fine. I have peanut butter and cookies and bananas at home.
> Give me a way to fill my bottles at 80 miles and I'm good for the whole
> ride. But that's just me. But PLEASE ... recognize when the lead riders
> might reach those remote rest stops and have them up and manned when we
> arrive.

> If you're gonna take responsibility to plan a century ride. Please
> recognize that your way of riding is not the only valid way of riding and
> that riding fast is not a sin. If you're gonna advertise a marked course,
> make sure it's well marked with large, clear markings placed well in
> advance of the turns/events they're marking.

End of rant.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[Rich]

psycholist wrote:

>> If you're gonna take responsibility to plan a century ride. Please
>>recognize that your way of riding is not the only valid way of riding and
>>that riding fast is not a sin.

Sounds to me like he planned a social ride. Perhaps you should have
done the other century.

And you sound like kind of a jerk.

Rich

[Roger Zoul]

psycholist > wrote:
:> Yesterday I did about my bazillionth century ride. I'm 49 years old
:> and I've done lots of centuries in my day.
:>
:> My local club put on this ride ... against my protestations because
:> they scheduled it head-to-head with a very well-established century
:> that's been going on not too many miles away. I thought it was
:> rather rude to do that.
:>
:> The guy who volunteered to put on the ride had never done it before
:> and is a fairly new rider. I coached him over the months leading up
:> to the event about the things I've seen that make the difference
:> between a good event and a bad event. He didn't listen. In fact,
:> he committed what I told him would be the CARDINAL SIN. He marked
:> the course poorly and got the riders lost.
:>
:> Well, I should qualify that. He got the fast riders lost. He
:> personally rode out in front of the slow groups and stood at each
:> turn to make sure those riders didn't miss anything. But I was in
:> the front group and we'd blown by and missed his ridiculously
:> inadequate markings long before he got out to try to direct traffic.
:>
:> So I sent him an e-mail after the fact to ask him what happened. He
:> gave me the classic line that sets me off every single time ... "it
:> was supposed to be a social ride, not a race ... the social riders
:> didn't have any trouble."
:>
:> MAN that burns me up. Since when is there a speed limit on a road
:> ride? We rode the first 20 miles with 25 guys at an average speed
:> of 25 mph. It was no big deal. The road was flat. There was a
:> slight tailwind. It was nothing. But he says he designed things
:> with folks like him in mind ... folks who ride 15 mph. Well, this
:> guys is about 6' 3" tall and is morbidly obese (at least by my
:> definition)!
:>
:> So then he says, "if you'd asked at the rest stops, they'd have told
:> you which way to go." So then I explained, "I don't stop at rest
:> stops except maybe once in a 100 mile ride. Our entire lead group
:> only made one stop. And, how do we stop at a rest stop if we're
:> already off the course after 12 miles?" Again, I got the, "if you
:> weren't racing you'd have been able to see the marks."
:>
:> That's such crap. I'm so sick of "social" riders who act like
:> you're doing something wrong just 'cuz you can, or you just like to,
:> ride faster than they do. I never hear the fast riders complain
:> about the "social" riders. But the "social" riders always feel
:> compelled to tell the fast riders how they should ride.
:>
:> All you "social" riders reading this, please note the following:

I agree that you and the other fast riders should have been ****ed. He is an
ignorant/arrogant noob who should not have been planning a ride.

However, your characterization of riders who don't (can't) ride as fast as
you and those in your group is silly. You're just dealing with ignorant
people -- the clueless. I've been on rides around here that were planned
by folks to don't (based on my observations) ride fast, but are aware that
some do and that they are not racing. I personally ride as fast as I can so
you can't tell me I'm a "social" rider, but compared to you, you can
certainly say I'm a slow rider (I can do better than 15 mph on a flat,
though).

So be ****ed. You should be. Having a poorly marked route is f*cked up on
many levels, no matter the reason. Rest stops are optional (I noticed on my
very first event that many faster riders don't take all the rest stops).
However, place the blame correctly.

BTW, what are the events you're referring to?

[what does THIS button do?]

Your rant would be more to the point if it were directed simply at the
guy who screwed up the ride. He's the guy whose inability to see
beyond his own personal expections caused all the problems. Why you
are trying to inveigh against the entire class of riders who can't or
don't care to keep up with your L33t Sp33d is mysterious.

One might be tempted to observe, that since you knew his planning was
likely to be inadequate that you should have taken special precautions
against getting lost.

If you really believe you have never noticed fast riders complaining
about social riders, it's likely your recall is being colored by your
emotional state. There are regularly posts about slow people riding
two+ abreast on MUPs. Iit is beyond debate that these people would fit
within the aegis of "social rider", unless, of course, you wish to mint
a third ring of cycling hell whence to relegate the loi polloi.

..max

[wafflycat]

"Rich" > wrote in message
...

> Sounds to me like he planned a social ride. Perhaps you should have done
> the other century.
>
> And you sound like kind of a jerk.
>
> Rich

Damn... you beat me to it!

Cheers, helen s

[psycholist]

"what does THIS button do?" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Your rant would be more to the point if it were directed simply at the
> guy who screwed up the ride. He's the guy whose inability to see
> beyond his own personal expections caused all the problems. Why you
> are trying to inveigh against the entire class of riders who can't or
> don't care to keep up with your L33t Sp33d is mysterious.

<snip>

I guess I bored you and you fell asleep before you read the whole post. My
rant was as much at "social" riders who think it's some kind of sin to ride
fast as it was at the ride organizer.

But you are correct ... there are plenty of fast riders who dis "social"
riders, too. What was I thinking? I forgot where the term "Fred" came
from!

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[psycholist]

"Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
...
> psycholist > wrote:



> BTW, what are the events you're referring to?

Roger,

Since you're from around here, I hate to name names. If you check out the
ride calendars on the club websites, you'll be able to figure it out. It
wasn't Hartwell, but the routes overlapped (causing some riders to get lost
and join up with the wrong group -- those folks got very lost! Talk about
F$%D UP!)

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[psycholist]

"Rich" > wrote in message
...
> psycholist wrote:
>
>>> If you're gonna take responsibility to plan a century ride. Please
>>> recognize that your way of riding is not the only valid way of riding
>>> and that riding fast is not a sin.
>
> Sounds to me like he planned a social ride. Perhaps you should have done
> the other century.

He didn't advertise a social ride. He didn't advertise a freaking speed
limit.

> And you sound like kind of a jerk.

Yep. I'm a jerk. I have this unreasonable expectation that, when I lay out
my $30, I won't get led off into the wilderness and left for lost.
Fortunately, I was well acquainted with the area. Others weren't so lucky.
(Lions and Tigers and Bears ... OH MY!)

I will say, however, that they had a very nice T-shirt.
--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[Wayne Pein]

A mischaracterization is that riding fast with a group pace lining is
not "social."

Wayne

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
"psycholist" > writes:

>> Sounds to me like he planned a social ride. Perhaps you should have done
>> the other century.
>
> He didn't advertise a social ride. He didn't advertise a freaking speed
> limit.

I note some clubs alphabetically categorize their rides:
'A' rides, 'B' rides, 'C' rides etc, depending on the
character of the ride and the abilities of the riders.

Seems like a good system.


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

[GaryG]

"Tom Keats" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "psycholist" > writes:
>
> >> Sounds to me like he planned a social ride. Perhaps you should have
done
> >> the other century.
> >
> > He didn't advertise a social ride. He didn't advertise a freaking speed
> > limit.
>
> I note some clubs alphabetically categorize their rides:
> 'A' rides, 'B' rides, 'C' rides etc, depending on the
> character of the ride and the abilities of the riders.
>
> Seems like a good system.

That system is often used for club rides, but this was a century. A
well-supported century will make allowances for riders of all abilities, and
handle course markings, rest stops, etc. appropriately.

Most centuries do describe the course (especially with respect to elevation
gain), but I've never seen a century advertised as a "C" ride.

--
~_-*
....G/ \G
http://www.CycliStats.com
CycliStats - Software for Cyclists

>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
> --
> -- Nothing is safe from me.
> Above address is just a spam midden.
> I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Yesterday I did about my bazillionth century ride. I'm 49 years old and
> I've done lots of centuries in my day.
>
> My local club put on this ride ... against my protestations because they
> scheduled it head-to-head with a very well-established century that's been
> going on not too many miles away. I thought it was rather rude to do
> that.
>
> The guy who volunteered to put on the ride...

Whoa, hold it right there. An "organized" century that you only identify one
person who's putting it on?

> Well, I should qualify that. He got the fast riders lost. He personally
> rode out in front of the slow groups and stood at each turn to make sure
> those riders didn't miss anything. But I was in the front group and we'd
> blown by and missed his ridiculously inadequate markings long before he
> got out to try to direct traffic.

Was this actually a legit century, or just an opportunity for people to do a
100 mile club ride?

> So then he says, "if you'd asked at the rest stops, they'd have told you
> which way to go." So then I explained, "I don't stop at rest stops except
> maybe once in a 100 mile ride. Our entire lead group only made one stop.
> And, how do we stop at a rest stop if we're already off the course after
> 12 miles?" Again, I got the, "if you weren't racing you'd have been able
> to see the marks."

I'm picturing self-serve rest stops, put up the night before... an
interesting concept. Wonder if it's ever been done?

I doubt there was any prior indication this was going to be a typical,
well-run event, so I have to ask- why did you choose to ride it instead of
the "very well-established" option "not too many miles away"?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"psycholist" > wrote in message
...
> Yesterday I did about my bazillionth century ride. I'm 49 years old and
> I've done lots of centuries in my day.
>
> My local club put on this ride ... against my protestations because they
> scheduled it head-to-head with a very well-established century that's been
> going on not too many miles away. I thought it was rather rude to do
> that.
>
> The guy who volunteered to put on the ride had never done it before and is
> a fairly new rider. I coached him over the months leading up to the event
> about the things I've seen that make the difference between a good event
> and a bad event. He didn't listen. In fact, he committed what I told him
> would be the CARDINAL SIN. He marked the course poorly and got the riders
> lost.
>
> Well, I should qualify that. He got the fast riders lost. He personally
> rode out in front of the slow groups and stood at each turn to make sure
> those riders didn't miss anything. But I was in the front group and we'd
> blown by and missed his ridiculously inadequate markings long before he
> got out to try to direct traffic.
>
> So I sent him an e-mail after the fact to ask him what happened. He gave
> me the classic line that sets me off every single time ... "it was
> supposed to be a social ride, not a race ... the social riders didn't have
> any trouble."
>
> MAN that burns me up. Since when is there a speed limit on a road ride?
> We rode the first 20 miles with 25 guys at an average speed of 25 mph. It
> was no big deal. The road was flat. There was a slight tailwind. It was
> nothing. But he says he designed things with folks like him in mind ...
> folks who ride 15 mph. Well, this guys is about 6' 3" tall and is
> morbidly obese (at least by my definition)!
>
> So then he says, "if you'd asked at the rest stops, they'd have told you
> which way to go." So then I explained, "I don't stop at rest stops except
> maybe once in a 100 mile ride. Our entire lead group only made one stop.
> And, how do we stop at a rest stop if we're already off the course after
> 12 miles?" Again, I got the, "if you weren't racing you'd have been able
> to see the marks."
>
> That's such crap. I'm so sick of "social" riders who act like you're
> doing something wrong just 'cuz you can, or you just like to, ride faster
> than they do. I never hear the fast riders complain about the "social"
> riders. But the "social" riders always feel compelled to tell the fast
> riders how they should ride.
>
> All you "social" riders reading this, please note the following:
>
>> Riding fast is not a sin. Riding fast does not mean racing. Riding
>> fast is entirely relative. If there's a speed limit on a ride, post it
>> ... otherwise, you ride the speed you want to and I'll ride the speed I
>> want to. For me, the joy of riding an event like that is finding a good,
>> fast paceline and then flying along in close formation. It's a special
>> feeling that's probably the closest I'll ever come to flying with the
>> Blue Angels.
>
>> Don't tell me why I should be riding. I always hear, "riding is
>> supposed to be social." What makes you think the guys at the front don't
>> socialize? Just 'cuz you can't imagine talking while riding at our pace,
>> that doesn't mean we don't. And we're back in the parking lot hanging
>> out and having a good time for a couple hours before y'all show up. AND,
>> you can't imagine the bond that can form when a small group of complete
>> strangers gets together on the road and forms a tight working group to
>> bang out a good time for the ride. I've made many lasting friendships in
>> that fellowship of effort.
>
>> Many of you have spouses that ride. Mine doesn't. I like to get my
>> rides done and get back to do things with her.
>
>> Also, my life circumstances aren't the same as yours. I have a farm and
>> all the chores I need to stay busy. I don't have all day to waste
>> socializing on the road. If you do, that's fine. I don't. And that's
>> fine, too.
>
>> I don't need to eat all the crap at all the rest stops to feel like I
>> got my moneys worth on a ride. It's evident by appearances that many of
>> you do. That's fine. I have peanut butter and cookies and bananas at
>> home. Give me a way to fill my bottles at 80 miles and I'm good for the
>> whole ride. But that's just me. But PLEASE ... recognize when the lead
>> riders might reach those remote rest stops and have them up and manned
>> when we arrive.
>
>> If you're gonna take responsibility to plan a century ride. Please
>> recognize that your way of riding is not the only valid way of riding and
>> that riding fast is not a sin. If you're gonna advertise a marked
>> course, make sure it's well marked with large, clear markings placed well
>> in advance of the turns/events they're marking.
>
> End of rant.
>
> --
> Bob C.
>
> "Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
> T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)
>

[Marty]

psycholist wrote:
> Yesterday I did about my bazillionth century ride. I'm 49 years old and
> I've done lots of centuries in my day.
>
> My local club put on this ride ... against my protestations because they
> scheduled it head-to-head with a very well-established century that's been
> going on not too many miles away. I thought it was rather rude to do that.
>
> The guy who volunteered to put on the ride had never done it before and is a
> fairly new rider. I coached him over the months leading up to the event
> about the things I've seen that make the difference between a good event and
> a bad event. He didn't listen. In fact, he committed what I told him would
> be the CARDINAL SIN. He marked the course poorly and got the riders lost.
>
> Well, I should qualify that. He got the fast riders lost. He personally
> rode out in front of the slow groups and stood at each turn to make sure
> those riders didn't miss anything. But I was in the front group and we'd
> blown by and missed his ridiculously inadequate markings long before he got
> out to try to direct traffic.
>
> So I sent him an e-mail after the fact to ask him what happened. He gave me
> the classic line that sets me off every single time ... "it was supposed to
> be a social ride, not a race ... the social riders didn't have any trouble."
>
> MAN that burns me up. Since when is there a speed limit on a road ride? We
> rode the first 20 miles with 25 guys at an average speed of 25 mph. It was
> no big deal. The road was flat. There was a slight tailwind. It was
> nothing. But he says he designed things with folks like him in mind ...
> folks who ride 15 mph. Well, this guys is about 6' 3" tall and is morbidly
> obese (at least by my definition)!
>
> So then he says, "if you'd asked at the rest stops, they'd have told you
> which way to go." So then I explained, "I don't stop at rest stops except
> maybe once in a 100 mile ride. Our entire lead group only made one stop.
> And, how do we stop at a rest stop if we're already off the course after 12
> miles?" Again, I got the, "if you weren't racing you'd have been able to
> see the marks."
>
> That's such crap. I'm so sick of "social" riders who act like you're doing
> something wrong just 'cuz you can, or you just like to, ride faster than
> they do. I never hear the fast riders complain about the "social" riders.
> But the "social" riders always feel compelled to tell the fast riders how
> they should ride.
>
> All you "social" riders reading this, please note the following:
>
>
>> Riding fast is not a sin. Riding fast does not mean racing. Riding fast
>>is entirely relative. If there's a speed limit on a ride, post it ...
>>otherwise, you ride the speed you want to and I'll ride the speed I want
>>to. For me, the joy of riding an event like that is finding a good, fast
>>paceline and then flying along in close formation. It's a special feeling
>>that's probably the closest I'll ever come to flying with the Blue Angels.
>
>
>> Don't tell me why I should be riding. I always hear, "riding is supposed
>>to be social." What makes you think the guys at the front don't
>>socialize? Just 'cuz you can't imagine talking while riding at our pace,
>>that doesn't mean we don't. And we're back in the parking lot hanging out
>>and having a good time for a couple hours before y'all show up. AND, you
>>can't imagine the bond that can form when a small group of complete
>>strangers gets together on the road and forms a tight working group to
>>bang out a good time for the ride. I've made many lasting friendships in
>>that fellowship of effort.
>
>
>> Many of you have spouses that ride. Mine doesn't. I like to get my
>>rides done and get back to do things with her.
>
>
>> Also, my life circumstances aren't the same as yours. I have a farm and
>>all the chores I need to stay busy. I don't have all day to waste
>>socializing on the road. If you do, that's fine. I don't. And that's
>>fine, too.
>
>
>> I don't need to eat all the crap at all the rest stops to feel like I got
>>my moneys worth on a ride. It's evident by appearances that many of you
>>do. That's fine. I have peanut butter and cookies and bananas at home.
>>Give me a way to fill my bottles at 80 miles and I'm good for the whole
>>ride. But that's just me. But PLEASE ... recognize when the lead riders
>>might reach those remote rest stops and have them up and manned when we
>>arrive.
>
>
>> If you're gonna take responsibility to plan a century ride. Please
>>recognize that your way of riding is not the only valid way of riding and
>>that riding fast is not a sin. If you're gonna advertise a marked course,
>>make sure it's well marked with large, clear markings placed well in
>>advance of the turns/events they're marking.
>
>
> End of rant.
>

I thought it was a reasonable rant. I have a similar problem with a guy
that helps organise a canoe race. Well I call it a race and he calls it
a social paddle.

Marty

[botfood]

> I coached him over the months leading up to the event
about the things I've seen that make the difference between a good
event and
a bad event.
-----------------------------------
seems like if it was your club, and you'd been coaching him, that you
would have known the route well enough not to get lost? Or, perhaps
been proactive the week before the race, and gone out with some spray
paint YOURSELF to mark the turns rather than whine about it after the
fact?

d

[psycholist]

"Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote in message
.. .

> I doubt there was any prior indication this was going to be a typical,
> well-run event, so I have to ask- why did you choose to ride it instead of
> the "very well-established" option "not too many miles away"?
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>

Mike,

This event began 2 years ago with another guy running it ... an experienced
guy. It was on a different weekend. I did the ride and all was well. Oh,
this is "my local club." Mind you, I live in a very remote rural area. I'm
25 miles from the town where this club is based, but they were doing this
century out of a town only 12 miles away. Again, I live in a remote area.
I don't get that many opportunities to do a century where I don't have to
pack and drive a couple of hours.

Last year, the original organizer moved it to the weekend in conflict with
the "well established" event. As a bit of a statement of protest, I did the
well established event and skipped the local affair.

This year I decided to ride the local event again just 'cuz the terrain in
this area is more to my liking (rolling terrain vs. the other one that's
mostly flat) and I could roll out of bed and go ride. The other ride
started 50 miles away. I knew it was a new guy trying to run the event. I
traded a number of e-mails with him leading up to the event. I volunteered
to design the course ... at least the part of it that was on familiar
training roads I always use. I offered to do the course marking. I offered
all kinds of help. ESPECIALLY, I shared experiences with this guy about
poor course marking and I told him what kind or riders he'd get and how to
take care of them.

This guy blew it all off. He tried to organize street dances and pool
parties and all this other non-ride nonsense thinking people would come for
that. He short-changed the ride. People got back to their cars ****ed off
and they went home. All his other events were a complete bust.

It is a shame. The guy truly did put some effort into it. That can't be
argued. But I guess he felt like he knew better than the experienced riders
who were telling him what he needed to be working on.

Rule #1 ... don't get your riders lost. They can't show up for your
after-parties.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[psycholist]

"botfood" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I coached him over the months leading up to the event
> about the things I've seen that make the difference between a good
> event and
> a bad event.
> -----------------------------------
> seems like if it was your club, and you'd been coaching him, that you
> would have known the route well enough not to get lost? Or, perhaps
> been proactive the week before the race, and gone out with some spray
> paint YOURSELF to mark the turns rather than whine about it after the
> fact?
>
> d

I offered. He said he had it handled.

And, I wasn't lost. I stopped everyone in the lead group and told them that
I knew we had to be going off course. I led our group back to a spot where
I knew we'd be back on the course. I even stopped when I saw a guy taking
pictures for the little local newspaper and told him to tell the riders
coming up behind how to follow the route we took. I was probably one of
only about 3 people on that entire ride who DID know those roads and, were
it not for me, most of those folks were headed across the river to another
state.

I don't expect any pats on the back for the foregoing. I do for what
follows. When I had to dream up a way to get us back on the course, I
managed to do so in such a way that we finished spot on 100 miles. That was
cool.
--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[jj]

On Sun, 29 May 2005 22:24:25 -0400, "psycholist" >
wrote:

>This guy blew it all off. He tried to organize street dances and pool
>parties and all this other non-ride nonsense thinking people would come for
>that. He short-changed the ride. People got back to their cars ****ed off
>and they went home. All his other events were a complete bust.
>
>It is a shame. The guy truly did put some effort into it. That can't be
>argued. But I guess he felt like he knew better than the experienced riders
>who were telling him what he needed to be working on.
>
>Rule #1 ... don't get your riders lost. They can't show up for your
>after-parties.
>
> --
>Bob C.

Hope you were still able to enjoy the ride - it does seem like you got a
bit of a thrill from helping the group find their way. Silver lining and
all that, eh? ;-)

Though some here might offer put-downs for 'jerk'-itude, or whining, geeze,
a guy should be able to come on group and vent a little and blow off some
steam.

Anyway, interesting story, and even fun to read about. Sounds like you even
gained some insights, and now can add this to the 'lessons learned' file.
Maybe next year you can finesse your way into certain aspects of the
planning committee and get the route marked correctly.

Would you say that -if- the route had been marked well, that overall, the
guy had potentially a pretty good event planned?

Though he pushed your buttons with the remarks about 'social ride', he
probably didn't mean to. Perhaps it was just clumsiness, or defensiveness
on his part. Hope things work out better for you next ride.

jj

[Mike Kruger]

psycholist wrote:

<<This guy blew it all off. He tried to organize street dances and
pool
parties and all this other non-ride nonsense thinking people would come
for
that. He short-changed the ride. People got back to their cars ****ed
off
and they went home. All his other events were a complete bust.

It is a shame. The guy truly did put some effort into it. That can't
be
argued. But I guess he felt like he knew better than the experienced
riders
who were telling him what he needed to be working on.

Rule #1 ... don't get your riders lost. >>

It sounds like he massively underestimated the amount of work a really
first class ride is.

I agree with you that a good route marked well is rule #1 -- that's why
route marking is what I do on our club ride.

[Other people think food at the rest stops is the most important. Fine.
They do that. Everybody's happy.]

But the real test is what you do now that you have ranted. Running an
organized century well can really be a good, galvanizing club activity
that draws people together. Having a ride with a poor reputation can
probably sink a club, although I've been lucky enough not to know that
first-hand. What are you able / willing to do about this situation in
the next year? Can you find some other potential leader to rally
around, thank this guy for his efforts, and make him head of the kids
face-painting subcommittee or something.

If the event was really the fiasco you indicated, he probably feels
disappointed and depressed, and your ragging on him (however justified)
probably isn't helping. Or maybe he's one of these guys who always
thinks things are roaring successes, even if they look to everybody
else like failures. I can't tell from here.

Upon reflection, you might think about whether you really want to
participate in some sort of war of insult between fast and slow riders
or whether you want to tone this down before everyone gets too bent
out of shape.

[[email protected]]

Rich wrote:
> psycholist wrote:
>
> >> If you're gonna take responsibility to plan a century ride. Please
> >>recognize that your way of riding is not the only valid way of riding and
> >>that riding fast is not a sin.
>
> Sounds to me like he planned a social ride. Perhaps you should have
> done the other century.
>
> And you sound like kind of a jerk.
>

I disagree. If the ride wasn't advertised as a special slow century,
there'd be no way to see this problem coming. (And who ever heard of a
century organized to be slow?)

Since you're a member of the sponsoring club, the question is: What
now?

When I ran our club century, I had a rider comment sheet at the finish,
to get feedback. Did this guy have that? Probably not...

In any case, I _always_ had a post-ride party/meeting for all the
helpers. I'd suggest phoning the club president and seeing if that can
be thrown together quickly. It's a great time to thank the helpers,
but it's also a great time to collect ideas for improvements for next
year - and this situation really needs improved!

BTW, I wrote up "how to" sheets for each different type of volunteer -
for example, the registration folks, the sag drivers, the rest stop
workers, and of _course_ the road markers. I tuned this up year after
year in response to feedback. You might see if the club would agree to
that.

I think I have those files on disk somewhere. Let me know if you want
them, for use as starting points.

- Frank Krygowski

[Leo Lichtman]

"psycholist" wrote: (clip)I offered. He said he had it handled. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Since I don't know either you or him, I have to offer this as a supposition:
is it possible that your efforts to help him were taken as interference?
Here he was with a job to do, and this "other guy" keeps telling him how to
do it. The fact that he didn't have it handled, and still refused your help
may be due to resentment.

No matter how thin you slice it, baloney always has two sides to it. And we
haven't heard his side.

[Bob]

My wife is a "social" rider and she often criticizes me for riding too
fast but "social" or "fast" aside, something is odd about your story.
You say that you got lost before completing the first 12 miles of a 100
mile ride. Later in this thread you say you managed to bring the group
in after riding exactly 100 miles. If you knew the area well enough to
do that then how the heck did you ever get lost in the first place?
Weren't route maps available ahead of time?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

[psycholist]

"Bob" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> My wife is a "social" rider and she often criticizes me for riding too
> fast but "social" or "fast" aside, something is odd about your story.
> You say that you got lost before completing the first 12 miles of a 100
> mile ride. Later in this thread you say you managed to bring the group
> in after riding exactly 100 miles. If you knew the area well enough to
> do that then how the heck did you ever get lost in the first place?
> Weren't route maps available ahead of time?
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt

I knew enough about the course to know where we were supposed to be headed,
generally. We headed out of this town after only a dozen miles and we were
headed straight back to the starting town on a main road. I kept my mouth
shut and kept waiting for a turn to the left that I felt should be coming.
It kept NOT coming. It was a very flat road and we were flying. I was
trying to decide what to do. I DID know EXACTLY where I was. I DIDN"T know
EXACTLY where the route went. Finally, we reached a point where I knew of
no more possible turns to the left that could get us over to where I knew
the course needed to be headed. So I stopped the group and got us going
back the opposite direction on a different road that intersected a place
where I knew the course passed through in the end of the county with which I
was familiar. The loop we invented when we were lost turned out to be about
16 miles. The loop we missed turned out to be about 16 miles. Lucky
coincidence.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[Jeff Starr]

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:29:35 -0400, "psycholist" >
wrote:


>
>I knew enough about the course to know where we were supposed to be headed,
>generally. We headed out of this town after only a dozen miles and we were
>headed straight back to the starting town on a main road. I kept my mouth
>shut and kept waiting for a turn to the left that I felt should be coming.
>It kept NOT coming. It was a very flat road and we were flying. I was
>trying to decide what to do. I DID know EXACTLY where I was. I DIDN"T know
>EXACTLY where the route went. Finally, we reached a point where I knew of
>no more possible turns to the left that could get us over to where I knew
>the course needed to be headed. So I stopped the group and got us going
>back the opposite direction on a different road that intersected a place
>where I knew the course passed through in the end of the county with which I
>was familiar. The loop we invented when we were lost turned out to be about
>16 miles. The loop we missed turned out to be about 16 miles. Lucky
>coincidence.

Hi, I'm not familiar with what is normal preparation and procedure for
a ride like this. I have a question, besides marking the course, do
they supply written directions?

The few club rides I have been on, were all under 40 miles. They had
written directions. I rode one organized fund raiser, for the local
Zoo society, that included both sheets and markings.

How many riders participated in this event?

For the little that it is worth, I don't think you are being a jerk
about this. Hopefully the club will take the lessons learned here and
maybe in the future do better.


Life is Good!
Jeff

[psycholist]

"Jeff Starr" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:29:35 -0400, "psycholist" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I knew enough about the course to know where we were supposed to be
>>headed,
>>generally. We headed out of this town after only a dozen miles and we
>>were
>>headed straight back to the starting town on a main road. I kept my mouth
>>shut and kept waiting for a turn to the left that I felt should be coming.
>>It kept NOT coming. It was a very flat road and we were flying. I was
>>trying to decide what to do. I DID know EXACTLY where I was. I DIDN"T
>>know
>>EXACTLY where the route went. Finally, we reached a point where I knew
>>of
>>no more possible turns to the left that could get us over to where I knew
>>the course needed to be headed. So I stopped the group and got us going
>>back the opposite direction on a different road that intersected a place
>>where I knew the course passed through in the end of the county with which
>>I
>>was familiar. The loop we invented when we were lost turned out to be
>>about
>>16 miles. The loop we missed turned out to be about 16 miles. Lucky
>>coincidence.
>
> Hi, I'm not familiar with what is normal preparation and procedure for
> a ride like this. I have a question, besides marking the course, do
> they supply written directions?
>
> The few club rides I have been on, were all under 40 miles. They had
> written directions. I rode one organized fund raiser, for the local
> Zoo society, that included both sheets and markings.
>
> How many riders participated in this event?
>
> For the little that it is worth, I don't think you are being a jerk
> about this. Hopefully the club will take the lessons learned here and
> maybe in the future do better.
>
>
> Life is Good!
> Jeff

Life is, indeed, good Jeff. I just had to get this little beef off my chest
and I did so here so I wouldn't come down too harshly on the guy who
organized the event. He meant well, I'm sure.

To answer your question, they did have a route sheet, too. That's typical
at these events that the course is marked and there are route sheets.
However, it's also typical that you go by the markings. Nobody wants to be
riding in a fast group and have people pulling maps out of their pockets and
trying to read them as they ride, etc. That's not safe. The maps are good
to check before you leave (which I had done to a sufficient extent to
realize when we'd strayed a ways off course) and to reference if you DO get
lost. Course markings should be big, bold and well in advance of the
turns/events they mark. They should also be consistent. We were following
white marks for the first 12 miles. Then the guy changed to orange paint.
And he did so just as we entered a construction zone where there were orange
signs and cones and barrels and other orange marks on the road. Sheesh!
Apparently he thought the orange marks would highlight the danger of the
construction zone. But he had us following white marks up until then. Nice
intent I suppose. Bad practical application.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[[email protected]]

psycholist wrote:
> Course markings should be big, bold and well in advance of the
> turns/events they mark. They should also be consistent.

We try to do at _least_ two marks prior to every turn, giving
sufficient warning. On fast downhills, maybe more. There should be a
confirmation mark after the turn. And on a straight-through
intersection, it's nice to have a straight-through arrow to confirm
that there's _no_ turn.

- Frank Krygowski

[Bob]

psycholist wrote:

> To answer your question, they did have a route sheet, too. That's typical
> at these events that the course is marked and there are route sheets.
> However, it's also typical that you go by the markings. Nobody wants to be
> riding in a fast group and have people pulling maps out of their pockets and
> trying to read them as they ride, etc. That's not safe. The maps are good
> to check before you leave (which I had done to a sufficient extent to
> realize when we'd strayed a ways off course) and to reference if you DO get
> lost. Course markings should be big, bold and well in advance of the
> turns/events they mark. They should also be consistent. We were following
> white marks for the first 12 miles. Then the guy changed to orange paint.
> And he did so just as we entered a construction zone where there were orange
> signs and cones and barrels and other orange marks on the road. Sheesh!
> Apparently he thought the orange marks would highlight the danger of the
> construction zone. But he had us following white marks up until then. Nice
> intent I suppose. Bad practical application.
>
> --
> Bob C.
>
> "Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
> T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

I agree that it was a bad idea to switch the marking colors without
warning and that riders shouldn't have to read maps while they are
riding but as you point out, you looked at the map before taking off
and so were able to get the group back on the right course. Where I
differ with you- and it's only a minor difference- is where warning
markings should be placed. If there's a particularly tricky turn ahead
(tricky meaning easily missed) and I know that 90% of the riders will
hold a 15mph average speed I might place sign warning, "Right turn
ahead", 100 feet or so before that turn. A rider doing 25mph will not
consider that a sufficient distance but if I place it 200 feet before
that turn the majority of the participants will complain later that the
turn in question was confusing. It's just not possible to make everyone
happy so the best thing anyone marking a course can do is put up as
many signs/markings as practical, print out a route sheet, warn the
riders of any areas requiring special attention, and realize that no
matter what you do somebody is going to get lost. We've all seen riders
that could get lost on an enclosed oval after all. <g>

Regards,
Bob Hunt

[Leo Lichtman]

"Bob" wrote: (clip) If there's a particularly tricky turn (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How about placing a sign AFTER the turn, which says, "Go back"?

[Mark]

>>To answer your question, they did have a route sheet, too. That's typical
>> at these events that the course is marked and there are route sheets

Psycholist,

Let me understand you. You had a cue sheet but refused to use it. You
missed a road marking and got lost. Listening to your bitching and
wining, you sound like HIGH MAINTENANCE to me. You should step up to
the plate next year and show how you can do better.

[Mike Kruger]

<<How about placing a sign AFTER the turn, which says, "Go back"? >>

There are usually too many turns to do this, although it might be done
after a particularly tricky turn.

These markings are also probably less helpful than you'd thinkl.
Suppose you are marking with yellow paint. Then some riders will see
the yellow on the other side of the intersection and head in the wrong
direction. This could be avoided by marking in a different color. But
if a rider is used to following yellow markings, they will not be
noticing other colors.

It's also a lot more work for the marking crew. I like to mark from the
bike, with the spray can in a water bottle cage. I stop half a block
ahead and make a mark. Then I mark just ahead of the intersection. Then
I stop again after the turn.

Indicating "go back" means I need to make a U-turn across the
intersection after the third mark, get to the "go back" marking spot,
make the marking, then make another U-turn back to continue the route.

In short, it's not that helpful and a lot more work.

[Sarah Banick]

"psycholist" > wrote in message
...
>>
> That's such crap. I'm so sick of "social" riders who act like you're
> doing something wrong just 'cuz you can, or you just like to, ride faster
> than they do. I never hear the fast riders complain about the "social"
> riders. But the "social" riders always feel compelled to tell the fast
> riders how they should ride.
>

Bob, can't you just be angry at the organizer and leave us slower/social
riders out of your anger? Your comments can be taken for a type of
arrogance -- one that can dissuade potential cyclists from getting involved
in the sport. Not everyone can be fast, and those of us who were usually
picked last for kickball enjoy cycling BECAUSE it isn't competitive.

I'm 42 with two partial knee replacements. I'm slow. I'm usually finishing a
50 when the century riders catch me. That can feel a little weird, so it
makes me feel good when somebody yells out a call of encouragement. Every
now and then, there's some (arrogant, egotistical) jerk who thinks I'm in
his way. Luckily, I'm wiser than I was 20 years ago. :-)

We're all in this together: slow, fast, whatever. I'm never gonna be in the
pack, but I am staying healthy and enjoying the opportunity to meet a lot of
interesting people. To me, it's about the journey.

Each of us gets what we need from cycling. If either side "claims" the sport
as their own, it just alienates the other.

Ride on,
Sarah

[[email protected]]

Leo Lichtman wrote:
> "Bob" wrote: (clip) If there's a particularly tricky turn (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> How about placing a sign AFTER the turn, which says, "Go back"?

We've done that only in extreme situations. In most cases, two (maybe
three) prior warnings and one confirmation after seemed to do fine for
us.

- Frank Krygowski

[[email protected]]

Mark wrote:
>
> Psycholist,
>
> Let me understand you. You had a cue sheet but refused to use it. You
> missed a road marking and got lost. Listening to your bitching and
> wining, you sound like HIGH MAINTENANCE to me.

I _strongly_ disagree!

Again, I ran a big century ride for about seven years. I had plenty of
time to think about this stuff.

What were people paying money for? Not the food, although ours got
raves. They could have eaten as well in a restaurant on the way. A
few nervous ones perhaps paid to get the sag wagons, but only a
negligible number really make use of them.

The big thing they paid for was a really nice route, plus perhaps
comraderie of others riding the route. If it's not well marked, they
lose what they paid for!

In my experience, cue sheets and maps almost never come out unless the
rider is somehow in trouble - lost, or so tired they can't ride in,
etc. People who are capable of 100 miles like to just clip along at
their preferred pace, and map reading takes time! It's just a pain.

When Dan Henry invented road marking arrows, he did us all a big favor.
But to make them work, ride organizers need to do them right.

> You should step up to
> the plate next year and show how you can do better.

I wonder, Mark, have you ever marked roads for such an event?

- Frank Krygowski

[psycholist]

"Mark" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>>>To answer your question, they did have a route sheet, too. That's typical
>>> at these events that the course is marked and there are route sheets
>
> Psycholist,
>
> Let me understand you. You had a cue sheet but refused to use it. You
> missed a road marking and got lost. Listening to your bitching and
> wining, you sound like HIGH MAINTENANCE to me. You should step up to
> the plate next year and show how you can do better.
>

Hey Mark,

Let me understand you. Don't you read? We followed marks all the way. I
couldn't include every little detail in my original post, but in this
thread, I've provided the info that we followed the marks that were there.
The guy led us out on white marks. Then changed to orange -- in the middle
of a construction zone where there were orange marks of all kinds,
everywhere! Didn't bother to tell us. We blew right by the orange marks.
We had no reason to be looking for orange marks that we knew of. After that
zone, we saw white marks again and started following them, not realizing
they were marks to be followed on the final loop in the last 15 miles of the
course. (We were on the first 15 miles of the course.) When I realized and
was absolutely sure that we had to be doing something wrong, I stopped our
group (which was moving right along, btw). That took a good while 'cuz we
were going down a road where any number of left turns were possible that
would have gotten us over to the next town I knew was supposed to come up
along the route. But we never took any left turns. So I stopped the group
and we consulted a map. I demonstrated to the group where we should be vs.
where we were and I came up with the fix that got us back on the course.

So stuff it.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[Bob]

Leo Lichtman wrote:
> "Bob" wrote: (clip) If there's a particularly tricky turn (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> How about placing a sign AFTER the turn, which says, "Go back"?

My experience with route marking has been mostly for a charity ride I
do each year. There always seems to be one spot with the potential to
confuse a lot of people so we try to post a volunteer there to direct
riders. Signs saying "Go back" or "Wrong way" sound good but since the
different mileage routes- riders can choose 25, 50, or 100k options-
overlap and even cross at one point signs aren't a workable option for
that particular ride. A ride that doesn't have enough volunteer help or
ride marshals might use the signs you suggest.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

[Bob]

wrote:
> psycholist wrote:
> > Course markings should be big, bold and well in advance of the
> > turns/events they mark. They should also be consistent.
>
> We try to do at _least_ two marks prior to every turn, giving
> sufficient warning. On fast downhills, maybe more. There should be a
> confirmation mark after the turn. And on a straight-through
> intersection, it's nice to have a straight-through arrow to confirm
> that there's _no_ turn.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

A 100 mile ride with two warnings preceding every turn? That sounds
like you have a very generous budget for spray chalk and a lot of route
marking volunteers. I envy you.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

[[email protected]]

Bob wrote:
>
>
> A 100 mile ride with two warnings preceding every turn? That sounds
> like you have a very generous budget for spray chalk and a lot of route
> marking volunteers. I envy you.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt

Yeah, we've got a good set of volunteers. The marking stuff isn't that
expensive, and we think it's well worth it.

I'm proud to say the LAB gave us an award one year, as one of their top
3 century rides.

- Frank Krygowski

[psycholist]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Bob wrote:
>>
>>
>> A 100 mile ride with two warnings preceding every turn? That sounds
>> like you have a very generous budget for spray chalk and a lot of route
>> marking volunteers. I envy you.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bob Hunt
>
> Yeah, we've got a good set of volunteers. The marking stuff isn't that
> expensive, and we think it's well worth it.
>
> I'm proud to say the LAB gave us an award one year, as one of their top
> 3 century rides.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Congrats Frank. Where is that?

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[Zoot Katz]

Tue, 31 May 2005 20:34:35 -0400, >,
"Sarah Banick" > wrote or "sport":

>Jeez, Zoot, I just used a word that I've seen others use on this newsgroup
>to describe this "thing" we do with bicycles...are you always this anal?
>I'm not going to play semantics games with you.
>
I've taken other to task for gutting cycling of its richness by
limiting to an activity they called "sport".

>You ride fast, I ride slow. You call it a lifestyle, I call it a sport,
>whatever I want. Just let me know when you're coming to throttle me so I'll
>make sure I'm home.

Maybe for you it's a hobby or exercise but it's definitely not your
"sport" I do some "sport" cycling in the form of cycle polo.
Primarily cycling is my transportation, recreation and meditation.
It's the thing that has brought me back from the darkest times of my
life and taken me to the greatest heights of personal joy.
--
zk

[[email protected]]

psycholist wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> > I'm proud to say the LAB gave us an award one year, as one of their top
> > 3 century rides.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
>
> Congrats Frank. Where is that?
>

Northeast Ohio Century. At that time, we started the ride in Warren
Ohio. The ride goes through the Amish area of Middlefield, east of
Cleveland.

I was in charge of the ride, and my wife was in charge of the lunch
stop. This was probably about 1994, the first year LAB gave out that
award.

- Frank Krygowski

[Zoot Katz]

Mon, 30 May 2005 17:59:28 -0400, >,
"Sarah Banick" > wrote of fast vs. social
riders

>Each of us gets what we need from cycling. If either side "claims" the sport
>as their own, it just alienates the other.

Anybody claiming cycling is a"sport" without recognising that it's
much more than mere "sport" for many of us who choose it as their
lifestyle really makes me want to strangle them.

Cycling is life.

"Sport" serves no useful purpose. It's play. It's a game like tennis
or golf or ultimate frisbee. Utterly useless for anything other than a
pastime.

Go golf if you want a "sport" for people with lousy knees or start
racing if wish to pigeonhole cycling in the very limited realm of
"sport".
--
zk

[psycholist]

"Sarah Banick" > wrote in message
...

> Each of us gets what we need from cycling. If either side "claims" the
> sport as their own, it just alienates the other.
>
> Ride on,
> Sarah

Sarah,

I thought that's pretty much what I was crying out for. In my case, I was
being told yet again that I "didn't ride right" by a "social rider" just
because I exceeded some mysterious, invisible speed limit that disqualified
me from the ride he organized. If you don't ride the way I do, you don't
hear the things I do. There's quite a crowd of people in my area who feel
compelled to tell me that I need to slow down and ride their way.
(Likewise, there are plenty of folks I enjoy riding with who like to ride
the way I do.) Aside from that garbage, I enjoy being involved in the club.
I've done the newsletters and designed logos and ride T-shirts. I'm
volunteering all the time. I also support the club financially, well beyond
my annual dues. When it's time to ride, I don't care to be told how I'm
supposed to ride. I ride just fine. I ride on the fog line and I'm
respectful of the traffic I share the road with. Most of the riders I ride
with through the week don't bother to be involved with the club 'cuz they're
sick of the "you ride too fast" garbage. I've always thought it quite
ironic that our club has driven away most of the really highly dedicated
riders who care enough about the sport to train seriously and who enjoy
riding at a very high level. (You can do that without actually racing.) I
stay involved with the club, but I get frustrated. I don't try to tell
others how they should ride except when they're being a danger to others or
when they're not sharing the road we're supposed to be sharing.

As for your partial knee replacements and your age, well, I'm 49. I got
slammed by a teenage driver talking on a cell phone just 2 1/2 years ago. I
was told I'd never ride again and that I might not walk again. I've got all
kinds of titanium hardware holding my left leg together (it held my left leg
on for a while), and I had fractures to my spine and pelvis. I know we all
have different constitutions and characters. I wasn't about to be handed
crutches and/or a wheelchair for life, but it amazed me to see how readily
people with whom I was in rehab accept those kinds of verdicts without
challenge. I ride and walk just fine today. Most limitations are in your
mind. Not all, but most.

If you're still in recovery mode, I wish you all the best! Well, I wish
you all the best, anyway.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[Bill Sornson]

Zoot Katz wrote:

> Anybody claiming cycling is a"sport" without recognising that it's
> much more than mere "sport" for many of us who choose it as their
> lifestyle really makes me want to strangle them.

It's obviously keeping YOU well-adjusted! (rofl)

Bill "the man needs a ride, I tells ya" S.

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Zoot Katz > writes:
> Mon, 30 May 2005 17:59:28 -0400, >,
> "Sarah Banick" > wrote of fast vs. social
> riders
>
>>Each of us gets what we need from cycling. If either side "claims" the sport
>>as their own, it just alienates the other.
>
> Anybody claiming cycling is a"sport" without recognising that it's
> much more than mere "sport" for many of us who choose it as their
> lifestyle really makes me want to strangle them.
>
> Cycling is life.

There's a picture of a kewl-looking Jorg & Olif cargo
bike in the June issue of Shared Vision magazine.

I tried looking for a URL to it at www.jorgandolif.com
but the *******s will only let browsers equipped with
Flash 5 in, which thoroughly ****es me off.


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

[jj]

On Mon, 30 May 2005 21:31:22 -0700, (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>In article >,
> Zoot Katz > writes:
>> Mon, 30 May 2005 17:59:28 -0400, >,
>> "Sarah Banick" > wrote of fast vs. social
>> riders
>>
>>>Each of us gets what we need from cycling. If either side "claims" the sport
>>>as their own, it just alienates the other.
>>
>> Anybody claiming cycling is a"sport" without recognising that it's
>> much more than mere "sport" for many of us who choose it as their
>> lifestyle really makes me want to strangle them.
>>
>> Cycling is life.
>
>There's a picture of a kewl-looking Jorg & Olif cargo
>bike in the June issue of Shared Vision magazine.
>
>I tried looking for a URL to it at www.jorgandolif.com
>but the *******s will only let browsers equipped with
>Flash 5 in, which thoroughly ****es me off.
>
>
>cheers,
> Tom

The order form has some small pics. Maybe you can right click and save as
to view:

http://www.jorgandolif.com/jo_orderform.pdf

jj

[Zoot Katz]

Tue, 31 May 2005 03:37:10 GMT,
>, "Bill Sornson"
> wrote:

>> Anybody claiming cycling is a"sport" without recognising that it's
>> much more than mere "sport" for many of us who choose it as their
>> lifestyle really makes me want to strangle them.
>
>It's obviously keeping YOU well-adjusted! (rofl)
>
>Bill "the man needs a ride, I tells ya" S.

That may well be true but it raises my ire when people pigeonhole
cycling as a "sport" when bicycle racing is a sport while cycling
itself is far more. Sport is lame unless you're playing or betting.

I'm neither a "sports fan" nor an "athlete". I'm a cyclist.

When I attend bicycle races, the actual race is secondary to the
street theatre and public "happening".
--
zk

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
> writes:

>>There's a picture of a kewl-looking Jorg & Olif cargo
>>bike in the June issue of Shared Vision magazine.
>>
>>I tried looking for a URL to it at www.jorgandolif.com
>>but the *******s will only let browsers equipped with
>>Flash 5 in, which thoroughly ****es me off.
>>
>>
>>cheers,
>> Tom
>
> The order form has some small pics. Maybe you can right click and save as
> to view:
>
> http://www.jorgandolif.com/jo_orderform.pdf

Thanks. I tried that, but this particular cargo bike
isn't in there. But maybe the pic will be in the upcoming
online version of the June issue of Shared Vision.

I'm gonna have to have a close-up-&-personal look at
those J&O city bikes, too. They're getting a lot of
promo and advertising here lately.


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

[Bill Sornson]

Tom Keats wrote:

> There's a picture of a kewl-looking Jorg & Olif cargo
> bike in the June issue of Shared Vision magazine.
>
> I tried looking for a URL to it at www.jorgandolif.com
> but the *******s will only let browsers equipped with
> Flash 5 in, which thoroughly ****es me off.

Don't think that bike is pictured, anyway (site is pretty bare, really).

Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with having Flash on your machine? (NOT
an endorsement of Flash sites, btw; I find 'em damned annoying 94.6% of the
time.)

-bs

[Zoot Katz]

Mon, 30 May 2005 22:29:28 -0700, >,
(Tom Keats) wrote:

>I'm gonna have to have a close-up-&-personal look at
>those J&O city bikes, too. They're getting a lot of
>promo and advertising here lately.

That's because they finally got some. There was a call out on the
Velolove list for mechanics to assemble and service the shipment.

If you're still lookin' for a jobe, you could get paid to become tired
of seeing 'em.
--
zk

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
"Bill Sornson" > writes:
> Tom Keats wrote:
>
>> There's a picture of a kewl-looking Jorg & Olif cargo
>> bike in the June issue of Shared Vision magazine.
>>
>> I tried looking for a URL to it at www.jorgandolif.com
>> but the *******s will only let browsers equipped with
>> Flash 5 in, which thoroughly ****es me off.
>
> Don't think that bike is pictured, anyway (site is pretty bare, really).
>
> Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with having Flash on your machine? (NOT
> an endorsement of Flash sites, btw; I find 'em damned annoying 94.6% of the
> time.)

It's not having Flash that bugs me -- it's /having/ to have it
to view the site at all. But then I guess I'm a curmudgeonly
fossil who remembers such concepts as backward compatibility
(as well as portability, and vertical development.)

If a street doesn't accommodate bicycles very well, it's
said to not be a "Complete Street". Correspondingly, I
figure a web site that can't be visited via Lynx (or
Netscape w/ Flash 4) is not a Complete Site.


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

[Zoot Katz]

Mon, 30 May 2005 23:14:51 -0700, >,
(Tom Keats) wrote:

>
>If a street doesn't accommodate bicycles very well, it's
>said to not be a "Complete Street". Correspondingly, I
>figure a web site that can't be visited via Lynx (or
>Netscape w/ Flash 4) is not a Complete Site.

The munglumping Feds wouldn't let me file for EI online because my 128
bit encryption isn't part of some version of Nutscrape or Exploder.
Their dinky devil uppers don't know about Opera.
--
zk

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Zoot Katz > writes:
> Mon, 30 May 2005 23:14:51 -0700, >,
> (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
>>
>>If a street doesn't accommodate bicycles very well, it's
>>said to not be a "Complete Street". Correspondingly, I
>>figure a web site that can't be visited via Lynx (or
>>Netscape w/ Flash 4) is not a Complete Site.
>
> The munglumping Feds wouldn't let me file for EI online because my 128
> bit encryption isn't part of some version of Nutscrape or Exploder.
> Their dinky devil uppers don't know about Opera.

I blame the undereducated, young-whippersnapper, know-it-all
web designers who choose to ignore the lessons learned by
prior generations about the desirability of backward
compatibility and portability.


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Zoot Katz > writes:
> Mon, 30 May 2005 22:29:28 -0700, >,
> (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
>>I'm gonna have to have a close-up-&-personal look at
>>those J&O city bikes, too. They're getting a lot of
>>promo and advertising here lately.
>
> That's because they finally got some. There was a call out on the
> Velolove list for mechanics to assemble and service the shipment.
>
> If you're still lookin' for a jobe, you could get paid to become tired
> of seeing 'em.

Yeah, I thought of that. But I think I'd rather dig out ol'
tree stumps for a living than risk having all the fun sucked
out of my interest in bikes, by making a job out of it.
I'm just more of a "work to live" than a "live to work" guy.


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

[efistrat]

psycholist wrote:
> MAN that burns me up. Since when is there a speed limit on a road ride? We
> rode the first 20 miles with 25 guys at an average speed of 25 mph. It was
> no big deal.

You are the man! Anyone who can ride that far, that fast with such a
huge chip on your shoulder gets my total respect.

[Roger Zoul]

psycholist wrote:
:: "Sarah Banick" > wrote in message
:: ...
::
::: Each of us gets what we need from cycling. If either side "claims"
::: the sport as their own, it just alienates the other.
:::
::: Ride on,
::: Sarah
::
:: Sarah,
::
:: I thought that's pretty much what I was crying out for. In my case,
:: I was being told yet again that I "didn't ride right" by a "social
:: rider" just because I exceeded some mysterious, invisible speed
:: limit that disqualified me from the ride he organized. If you don't
:: ride the way I do, you don't hear the things I do. There's quite a
:: crowd of people in my area who feel compelled to tell me that I need
:: to slow down and ride their way. (Likewise, there are plenty of
:: folks I enjoy riding with who like to ride the way I do.) Aside
:: from that garbage, I enjoy being involved in the club. I've done the
:: newsletters and designed logos and ride T-shirts. I'm volunteering
:: all the time. I also support the club financially, well beyond my
:: annual dues. When it's time to ride, I don't care to be told how
:: I'm supposed to ride. I ride just fine. I ride on the fog line and
:: I'm respectful of the traffic I share the road with. Most of the
:: riders I ride with through the week don't bother to be involved with
:: the club 'cuz they're sick of the "you ride too fast" garbage. I've
:: always thought it quite ironic that our club has driven away most of
:: the really highly dedicated riders who care enough about the sport
:: to train seriously and who enjoy riding at a very high level. (You
:: can do that without actually racing.) I stay involved with the
:: club, but I get frustrated. I don't try to tell others how they
:: should ride except when they're being a danger to others or when
:: they're not sharing the road we're supposed to be sharing.
::
:: As for your partial knee replacements and your age, well, I'm 49. I
:: got slammed by a teenage driver talking on a cell phone just 2 1/2
:: years ago. I was told I'd never ride again and that I might not
:: walk again. I've got all kinds of titanium hardware holding my left
:: leg together (it held my left leg on for a while), and I had
:: fractures to my spine and pelvis. I know we all have different
:: constitutions and characters. I wasn't about to be handed crutches
:: and/or a wheelchair for life, but it amazed me to see how readily
:: people with whom I was in rehab accept those kinds of verdicts
:: without challenge. I ride and walk just fine today.

:: Most
:: limitations are in your mind. Not all, but most.

Please tell this to Maggie!!!!

[Sarah Banick]

>
> I thought that's pretty much what I was crying out for. In my case, I was
> being told yet again that I "didn't ride right" by a "social rider" just
> because I exceeded some mysterious, invisible speed limit that
> disqualified me from the ride he organized. If you don't ride the way I
> do, you don't hear the things I do.

True.

There's quite a crowd of people in my area who feel
> compelled to tell me that I need to slow down and ride their way.
> (Likewise, there are plenty of folks I enjoy riding with who like to ride
> the way I do.) Aside from that garbage, I enjoy being involved in the
> club. I've done the newsletters and designed logos and ride T-shirts. I'm
> volunteering all the time. I also support the club financially, well
> beyond my annual dues. When it's time to ride, I don't care to be told
> how I'm supposed to ride. I ride just fine. I ride on the fog line and
> I'm respectful of the traffic I share the road with. Most of the riders I
> ride with through the week don't bother to be involved with the club 'cuz
> they're sick of the "you ride too fast" garbage. I've always thought it
> quite ironic that our club has driven away most of the really highly
> dedicated riders who care enough about the sport to train seriously and
> who enjoy riding at a very high level. (You can do that without actually
> racing.) I stay involved with the club, but I get frustrated. I don't
> try to tell others how they should ride except when they're being a danger
> to others or when they're not sharing the road we're supposed to be
> sharing.
>
> As for your partial knee replacements and your age, well, I'm 49. I got
> slammed by a teenage driver talking on a cell phone just 2 1/2 years ago.
> I was told I'd never ride again and that I might not walk again. I've got
> all kinds of titanium hardware holding my left leg together (it held my
> left leg on for a while), and I had fractures to my spine and pelvis. I
> know we all have different constitutions and characters. I wasn't about
> to be handed crutches and/or a wheelchair for life, but it amazed me to
> see how readily people with whom I was in rehab accept those kinds of
> verdicts without challenge. I ride and walk just fine today. Most
> limitations are in your mind. Not all, but most.
>
> If you're still in recovery mode, I wish you all the best! Well, I wish
> you all the best, anyway.
>
> --
> Bob C.

Same to you. Yes, it's amazing how each small victory can lead to the next
one. :-)

Sarah

[Sarah Banick]

>
> Anybody claiming cycling is a"sport" without recognising that it's
> much more than mere "sport" for many of us who choose it as their
> lifestyle really makes me want to strangle them.
>
> Cycling is life.
>
> "Sport" serves no useful purpose. It's play. It's a game like tennis
> or golf or ultimate frisbee. Utterly useless for anything other than a
> pastime.
>
> Go golf if you want a "sport" for people with lousy knees or start
> racing if wish to pigeonhole cycling in the very limited realm of
> "sport".

You sound like one of those fundamentalists who insists that their god is
the only one. So no one should cycle unless they do it your way?

[psycholist]

"Sarah Banick" > wrote in message
...

> Same to you. Yes, it's amazing how each small victory can lead to the next
> one. :-)
>
> Sarah

Sarah, since you're coming back from two knee replacements, I'll tell you
that my most emotional moment in all my rehab related to the broken kneecap
injury I had. It was awful. The knee was so incredibly stiff. I had no
flexibility at all. I had to sleep with my leg strapped into this machine
that bent it back and forth all night long to try to reduce scar tissue and
promote flexibility.

Well, in rehab we'd finish each session with me on an exercise bike rocking
my foot back and forth to try to get my knee to bend more each day. It was
so frustrated when, after weeks of work, I was almost able to complete a
full revolution, but not quite. Then, finally, after six weeks of torturing
myself and trying to break that knee loose, I finally went all the way
around on the pedal on that bike. I cried. I couldn't believe it, but I
cried. That one pedal revolution was such a huge victory that I just broke
down. That evening, I rode my bike outside 12 miles. I thought my wife was
gonna kill me. The next evening I joined a 35 mile club ride. Then I
thought my doc was gonna kill me. But it all worked out.
Good luck!

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[Bill Sornson]

psycholist wrote:
> "Sarah Banick" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Same to you. Yes, it's amazing how each small victory can lead to
>> the next one. :-)
>>
>> Sarah
>
> Sarah, since you're coming back from two knee replacements, I'll tell
> you that my most emotional moment in all my rehab related to the
> broken kneecap injury I had. It was awful. The knee was so
> incredibly stiff. I had no flexibility at all. I had to sleep with
> my leg strapped into this machine that bent it back and forth all
> night long to try to reduce scar tissue and promote flexibility.
>
> Well, in rehab we'd finish each session with me on an exercise bike
> rocking my foot back and forth to try to get my knee to bend more
> each day. It was so frustrated when, after weeks of work, I was
> almost able to complete a full revolution, but not quite. Then,
> finally, after six weeks of torturing myself and trying to break that
> knee loose, I finally went all the way around on the pedal on that
> bike. I cried. I couldn't believe it, but I cried. That one pedal
> revolution was such a huge victory that I just broke down. That
> evening, I rode my bike outside 12 miles. I thought my wife was
> gonna kill me. The next evening I joined a 35 mile club ride. Then
> I thought my doc was gonna kill me. But it all worked out.

Yo, Bob: You a member of any 12-step group(s) by any chance?!? You sure
got (some of) the requisite traits!

Meant in a nice way, BS (no, really :) )

[Zoot Katz]

Tue, 31 May 2005 16:19:23 -0400, >,
"Sarah Banick" > wrote:

>> Go golf if you want a "sport" for people with lousy knees or start
>> racing if wish to pigeonhole cycling in the very limited realm of
>> "sport".
>
>You sound like one of those fundamentalists who insists that their god is
>the only one. So no one should cycle unless they do it your way?

"Sport", in this context, means to me an active diversion requiring
physical exertion and competition. "Sport" is the occupation of
athletes.
It sounded to me like you were on a recreational ride, not a
competition. So tell me, how is your cycling a "sport"?
--
zk

[Sarah Banick]

"Zoot Katz" > wrote in message
...
> Tue, 31 May 2005 16:19:23 -0400, >,
> "Sarah Banick" > wrote:
>
>>> Go golf if you want a "sport" for people with lousy knees or start
>>> racing if wish to pigeonhole cycling in the very limited realm of
>>> "sport".
>>
>>You sound like one of those fundamentalists who insists that their god is
>>the only one. So no one should cycle unless they do it your way?
>
> "Sport", in this context, means to me an active diversion requiring
> physical exertion and competition. "Sport" is the occupation of
> athletes.
> It sounded to me like you were on a recreational ride, not a
> competition. So tell me, how is your cycling a "sport"?
> --
> zk

Jeez, Zoot, I just used a word that I've seen others use on this newsgroup
to describe this "thing" we do with bicycles...are you always this anal?
I'm not going to play semantics games with you.

You ride fast, I ride slow. You call it a lifestyle, I call it a sport,
whatever I want. Just let me know when you're coming to throttle me so I'll
make sure I'm home.

[Sarah Banick]

"psycholist" > wrote in message
...


> Sarah, since you're coming back from two knee replacements, I'll tell you
> that my most emotional moment in all my rehab related to the broken
> kneecap injury I had. It was awful. The knee was so incredibly stiff. I
> had no flexibility at all. I had to sleep with my leg strapped into this
> machine that bent it back and forth all night long to try to reduce scar
> tissue and promote flexibility.

Oh yeah, I remember that machine well. I went through several rounds with my
knees before we even got to the surgery. Luckily, I work at home. So we set
it up on a chair next to my computer, with me turning sideways, and just
kept working.

>
> Well, in rehab we'd finish each session with me on an exercise bike
> rocking my foot back and forth to try to get my knee to bend more each
> day. It was so frustrated when, after weeks of work, I was almost able to
> complete a full revolution, but not quite. Then, finally, after six weeks
> of torturing myself and trying to break that knee loose, I finally went
> all the way around on the pedal on that bike. I cried. I couldn't
> believe it, but I cried. That one pedal revolution was such a huge
> victory that I just broke down. That evening, I rode my bike outside 12
> miles. I thought my wife was gonna kill me. The next evening I joined a
> 35 mile club ride. Then I thought my doc was gonna kill me. But it all
> worked out.
> Good luck!
>
> --
You must have been in good shape to come back so strong. I was doing 40 mile
rides before my knee problems, but they put off operating for so long
('cause of my young age) that I really got out of shape (I turned bowlegged
and my whole body ached - they thought I had fibromyalgia. I hate doctors).

Now I have 20 pounds to get rid of. But....I started riding again last fall,
and in less than two weeks I'm doing BRAG (Bike Ride Across Georgia). So
I've come back even stronger (assuming I live). Hills are still a bitch, but
if I can make it through the first two days.... :-)

I love to travel, but I can't walk long distances anymore. So I'll be biking
my way through Europe from now on!

Sarah

[psycholist]

"Sarah Banick" > wrote in message
...

I started riding again last fall,
> and in less than two weeks I'm doing BRAG (Bike Ride Across Georgia).

> Sarah

Sarah,

Do you live in GA? I'm about 5 miles across the Savanah River from GA in
SC. I've considered doing BRAG a number of times. Never have, though.

Have a great ride. Spin those easy gears and go easy on those knees!

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[psycholist]

"Bill Sornson" > wrote in message
...

> Yo, Bob: You a member of any 12-step group(s) by any chance?!? You sure
> got (some of) the requisite traits!
>
> Meant in a nice way, BS (no, really :) )

Bill,

I think you've got me pegged.

At 25 I was a workaholic. At 35 I was an alcoholic and I smoked 2 1/2 packs
per day. Praise the Lord I survived all that to become a cycleaholic.

No doubt, I have one of those addictive personalities.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[psycholist]

"Zoot Katz" > wrote in message
...
> Tue, 31 May 2005 20:34:35 -0400, >,
> "Sarah Banick" > wrote or "sport":
>
>>Jeez, Zoot, I just used a word that I've seen others use on this newsgroup
>>to describe this "thing" we do with bicycles...are you always this anal?
>>I'm not going to play semantics games with you.
>>
> I've taken other to task for gutting cycling of its richness by
> limiting to an activity they called "sport".
>
>>You ride fast, I ride slow. You call it a lifestyle, I call it a sport,
>>whatever I want. Just let me know when you're coming to throttle me so
>>I'll
>>make sure I'm home.
>
> Maybe for you it's a hobby or exercise but it's definitely not your
> "sport" I do some "sport" cycling in the form of cycle polo.
> Primarily cycling is my transportation, recreation and meditation.
> It's the thing that has brought me back from the darkest times of my
> life and taken me to the greatest heights of personal joy.
> --
> zk

Careful there, zk. I'm currently wearing the "jerk" sign in this thread but
I think you're vying for it. I'm happy to share, but do you really want it?

Bob C.

P.S. I do see your point though. It's not a sport, it's an obsession!

[Bill Sornson]

psycholist wrote:
> "Bill Sornson" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Yo, Bob: You a member of any 12-step group(s) by any chance?!? You
>> sure got (some of) the requisite traits!
>>
>> Meant in a nice way, BS (no, really :) )
>
> Bill,
>
> I think you've got me pegged.
>
> At 25 I was a workaholic. At 35 I was an alcoholic and I smoked 2
> 1/2 packs per day. Praise the Lord I survived all that to become a
> cycleaholic.
>
> No doubt, I have one of those addictive personalities.

Ya think? :-D

Ride on,

Bill "went from chain smoking to...well, a chain, anyway" S.

[Zoot Katz]

Tue, 31 May 2005 22:33:24 -0400, >,
"psycholist" > wrote:

>
>Careful there, zk. I'm currently wearing the "jerk" sign in this thread but
>I think you're vying for it. I'm happy to share, but do you really want it?

I'll let you keep it by virtue of your greater titanium content.

I even shudder at the expression "sport fishing" applied to a leisure
pastime. And I almost heave when I hear "sports car" applied to
garden variety consumer grade dinky scuds.

My former spouse nailed it when she asked, "Now that you have an
obsession, what are you going to do for a hobby?".
--
zk

[psycholist]

"Bill Sornson" > wrote in message
...

> Bill "went from chain smoking to...well, a chain, anyway" S.

I guess it's something to do with craving searing pain in the lungs. Weird,
huh.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[Sarah Banick]

"psycholist" > wrote in message
...
> "Sarah Banick" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> I started riding again last fall,
>> and in less than two weeks I'm doing BRAG (Bike Ride Across Georgia).
>
>> Sarah
>
> Sarah,
>
> Do you live in GA? I'm about 5 miles across the Savanah River from GA in
> SC. I've considered doing BRAG a number of times. Never have, though.
>
> Have a great ride. Spin those easy gears and go easy on those knees!
>
>
Yep -- I'm in Atlanta. Let me know if you ever come up to ride -- although I
won't be able to keep up with you!

Sarah

[Fritz M]

Zoot Katz wrote:

> My former spouse...

With your winning personality, one wonders why she would be your ex.

RFM

[Zoot Katz]

1 Jun 2005 10:43:29 -0700,
. com>,
"Fritz M" > wrote:

>> My former spouse...
>
>With your winning personality, one wonders why she would be your ex.

She decided to become a nun but she is still my best friend.
You never want to make an enemy of anyone who knows that well.
--
zk

[Claire Petersky]

Bill Sornson wrote in message ...
>Zoot Katz wrote:
>
>> Anybody claiming cycling is a"sport" without recognising that it's
>> much more than mere "sport" for many of us who choose it as their
>> lifestyle really makes me want to strangle them.
>
>It's obviously keeping YOU well-adjusted! (rofl)

Just think what he'd be like if he wasn't a cyclist, then, eh? And I bet
Zoot's a bit more crabby these days with his injury an' all. I know I'd want
to strangle more people if I were off the bike for the same length of time.


--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referr*al/Cpetersky

[Zoot Katz]

Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:58:35 -0700,
>,
"Claire Petersky" > wrote:

>>
>>It's obviously keeping YOU well-adjusted! (rofl)
>
>Just think what he'd be like if he wasn't a cyclist, then, eh? And I bet
>Zoot's a bit more crabby these days with his injury an' all. I know I'd want
>to strangle more people if I were off the bike for the same length of time.

Fifty-three days and counting.

Not only off the bike but being subjected to medically approved
torture otherwise known a physical therapy.

If I dropped my crutches to go for the jugular, I'd promptly fall
over.
--
zk

[Mike Kruger]

Bob, you might find consolation in this:

The Chicago Lakeshore Marathon, which is a qualifying race for the
Boston and Chicago marathons, gets a long front page article in the
Chicago Tribune today for being 1 mile too long. The half-marathon was
also too long. (This makes everybody's time longer, and lots of people
are close to the time cutoff for these events.)

The woman who was in first place most of the way through the
half-marathon got directed off-course and ran an extra mile. She
finished third.

Runners throughout the area are calling for the organizer's head. They
are not being polite about it, either.

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
(Tom Keats) writes:

> There's a picture of a kewl-looking Jorg & Olif cargo
> bike in the June issue of Shared Vision magazine.

FWIW here it is:
http://www.shared-vision.com/2005/sv1806/gasprices1806.html


cheers,
Tom

--
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Above address is just a spam midden.
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