Windsor Tourist Bike review addition

[GLitwinski]

Bought a Windsor Tourist steel frame touring bike from Bikes Direct earlier
this year for $590. It's a Fuji Touring by another name. The gear shift
train is Shimano Tiagra/Deore, brakes Tektro, frame chrome moly (which I
wanted and which severely limited my choices), tires Kenda Euro,
wheels/spokes/hubs no-name. Comes with plenty of braze-ons for fenders
(which I wanted and added) and with an Al rack with stainless hardware. It's
a heavy beast, just under 30 lb. fully outfitted with
fenders/rack/speedo/kit bag/cage/Tektro suicide brake levers I added. I
added clipless pedals to replace the standard clip type, too. I wanted an
all weather, tough, smooth riding touring bike and that's mostly what I got.
I have about 400 miles on it now.

The one bad thing about it is that it came with real crap no-name spokes. I
have broken five spokes on the rear wheel on three different rides (2 + 2
+1). This was with just the rider on the bike, no extra load. Had the broken
spokes professionally replaced each time and the wheel trued after first
instance and trued/tensioned after the second. All breaks were on hub side
and all were at the flare that goes against the hub. No breaks where breaks
almost always occur, at the bend. The spokes are clearly crap. Showed the
broken spokes to two bike shops and no one had ever seen such a break.
Finally, after blowing $42 on repairs, I had the wheel rebuilt with DT
14/15/14 tapered spokes for $80.

I contacted Bikes Direct about the problem. They said the spokes were not
defective, but they would replace them with same type if I sent the wheel
back. Considering that I would end up with the same problem, in my
estimation, and just be out shipping plus time, I passed.

Anyway, I wish I had just respoked the thing after the first breaks. Given
how the spokes broke, it was clear, in hind sight, that the spokes were bad.

Live an learn. At least now I have a rear wheel I can rely on.

Would I buy another Windsor Tourist? Sure, but I'd respoke the back wheel
immediately...or even better, have BikesDirect do it pre-sale with DT
tapered spokes at my cost.

Other than the spokes, I like the bike a lot and would change nothing.

- GRL

[Rich Clark]

"GLitwinski" > wrote in message
...

> Would I buy another Windsor Tourist? Sure, but I'd respoke the back wheel
> immediately...or even better, have BikesDirect do it pre-sale with DT
> tapered spokes at my cost.

If you can't trust them to properly tension and stress-relieve a wheel on a
bike they're selling you, why would you trust them to re-build a wheel
reliably?

RichC

[SBC Usenet]

For a Tourer on a budget, I'd seek out a local Performance Bike and have
them order you a Fuji Tourer. For almost everyone, the benefit of a LBS is
local help. Performance may give a deal if you ask a bit, you certainly get
10% back in their buying club, and a local shop is more likely to fix under
warranty at no charge.

For your Windsor, I'll be you get really good service now.

"GLitwinski" > wrote in message
...
> Would I buy another Windsor Tourist? Sure, but I'd respoke the back wheel
> immediately...or even better, have BikesDirect do it pre-sale with DT
> tapered spokes at my cost.
>
> Other than the spokes, I like the bike a lot and would change nothing.
>
> - GRL
>

[[email protected]]

Buying online is the way to go once you know size. Of the three bikes
I've bought (two C'dales and a Lemond) two have needed attention to
the wheels. Once they are set up right there probably will be no
problems. Looking at bikesdirect you still get a deal even if you buy
a new wheelset

[Frank Drackman]

"GLitwinski" > wrote in message
...
> Bought a Windsor Tourist steel frame touring bike from Bikes Direct
> earlier this year for $590. It's a Fuji Touring by another name. The gear
> shift train is Shimano Tiagra/Deore, brakes Tektro, frame chrome moly
> (which I wanted and which severely limited my choices), tires Kenda Euro,
> wheels/spokes/hubs no-name. Comes with plenty of braze-ons for fenders
> (which I wanted and added) and with an Al rack with stainless hardware.
> It's a heavy beast, just under 30 lb. fully outfitted with
> fenders/rack/speedo/kit bag/cage/Tektro suicide brake levers I added. I
> added clipless pedals to replace the standard clip type, too. I wanted an
> all weather, tough, smooth riding touring bike and that's mostly what I
> got. I have about 400 miles on it now.
>
> The one bad thing about it is that it came with real crap no-name spokes.
> I have broken five spokes on the rear wheel on three different rides (2 +
> 2 +1). This was with just the rider on the bike, no extra load. Had the
> broken spokes professionally replaced each time and the wheel trued after
> first instance and trued/tensioned after the second. All breaks were on
> hub side and all were at the flare that goes against the hub. No breaks
> where breaks almost always occur, at the bend. The spokes are clearly
> crap. Showed the broken spokes to two bike shops and no one had ever seen
> such a break. Finally, after blowing $42 on repairs, I had the wheel
> rebuilt with DT 14/15/14 tapered spokes for $80.
>
> I contacted Bikes Direct about the problem. They said the spokes were not
> defective, but they would replace them with same type if I sent the wheel
> back. Considering that I would end up with the same problem, in my
> estimation, and just be out shipping plus time, I passed.
>
> Anyway, I wish I had just respoked the thing after the first breaks. Given
> how the spokes broke, it was clear, in hind sight, that the spokes were
> bad.
>
> Live an learn. At least now I have a rear wheel I can rely on.
>
> Would I buy another Windsor Tourist? Sure, but I'd respoke the back wheel
> immediately...or even better, have BikesDirect do it pre-sale with DT
> tapered spokes at my cost.
>
> Other than the spokes, I like the bike a lot and would change nothing.
>
> - GRL
>

I have bought many bikes from Bikes Direct and they always have a disclaimer
that tells you to get the bike assembled by a professional mechanic. It
sounds like you skipped that part or the mechinic did a bad job of prepping
the bike.

[Bruce & Lois Nelson]

Are you sure the original spokes were inserted correctly? If the heads were
in the countersinks, they would break at the spoke bend.
Bruce

"GLitwinski" > wrote in message
...
> Bought a Windsor Tourist steel frame touring bike from Bikes Direct
earlier
> this year for $590. It's a Fuji Touring by another name. The gear shift
> train is Shimano Tiagra/Deore, brakes Tektro, frame chrome moly (which I
> wanted and which severely limited my choices), tires Kenda Euro,
> wheels/spokes/hubs no-name. Comes with plenty of braze-ons for fenders
> (which I wanted and added) and with an Al rack with stainless hardware.
It's
> a heavy beast, just under 30 lb. fully outfitted with
> fenders/rack/speedo/kit bag/cage/Tektro suicide brake levers I added. I
> added clipless pedals to replace the standard clip type, too. I wanted an
> all weather, tough, smooth riding touring bike and that's mostly what I
got.
> I have about 400 miles on it now.
>
> The one bad thing about it is that it came with real crap no-name spokes.
I
> have broken five spokes on the rear wheel on three different rides (2 + 2
> +1). This was with just the rider on the bike, no extra load. Had the
broken
> spokes professionally replaced each time and the wheel trued after first
> instance and trued/tensioned after the second. All breaks were on hub side
> and all were at the flare that goes against the hub. No breaks where
breaks
> almost always occur, at the bend. The spokes are clearly crap. Showed the
> broken spokes to two bike shops and no one had ever seen such a break.
> Finally, after blowing $42 on repairs, I had the wheel rebuilt with DT
> 14/15/14 tapered spokes for $80.
>
> I contacted Bikes Direct about the problem. They said the spokes were not
> defective, but they would replace them with same type if I sent the wheel
> back. Considering that I would end up with the same problem, in my
> estimation, and just be out shipping plus time, I passed.
>
> Anyway, I wish I had just respoked the thing after the first breaks. Given
> how the spokes broke, it was clear, in hind sight, that the spokes were
bad.
>
> Live an learn. At least now I have a rear wheel I can rely on.
>
> Would I buy another Windsor Tourist? Sure, but I'd respoke the back wheel
> immediately...or even better, have BikesDirect do it pre-sale with DT
> tapered spokes at my cost.
>
> Other than the spokes, I like the bike a lot and would change nothing.
>
> - GRL
>
>

[[email protected]]

No, please re-read the post. You seem to have missed ssome facts. The
rear wheel kept breaking spokes, in a very abnormal manner AFTER I had
a LBS true the wheel (it really didn't need that) and check the spokes'
tension. What, exactly, do you think should have been done beyond that,
short of what I did, replace the crap spokes with DT spokes? Also, note
the VERY abnormal failure mode. Good spokes don't break, but if they do
it's at the bend, not at the flare. All of mine broke that way.

The bike is good, the spokes are crap.

- GRL

Frank Drackman wrote:
> "GLitwinski" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Bought a Windsor Tourist steel frame touring bike from Bikes Direct
> > earlier this year for $590. It's a Fuji Touring by another name. The gear
> > shift train is Shimano Tiagra/Deore, brakes Tektro, frame chrome moly
> > (which I wanted and which severely limited my choices), tires Kenda Euro,
> > wheels/spokes/hubs no-name. Comes with plenty of braze-ons for fenders
> > (which I wanted and added) and with an Al rack with stainless hardware.
> > It's a heavy beast, just under 30 lb. fully outfitted with
> > fenders/rack/speedo/kit bag/cage/Tektro suicide brake levers I added. I
> > added clipless pedals to replace the standard clip type, too. I wanted an
> > all weather, tough, smooth riding touring bike and that's mostly what I
> > got. I have about 400 miles on it now.
> >
> > The one bad thing about it is that it came with real crap no-name spokes.
> > I have broken five spokes on the rear wheel on three different rides (2 +
> > 2 +1). This was with just the rider on the bike, no extra load. Had the
> > broken spokes professionally replaced each time and the wheel trued after
> > first instance and trued/tensioned after the second. All breaks were on
> > hub side and all were at the flare that goes against the hub. No breaks
> > where breaks almost always occur, at the bend. The spokes are clearly
> > crap. Showed the broken spokes to two bike shops and no one had ever seen
> > such a break. Finally, after blowing $42 on repairs, I had the wheel
> > rebuilt with DT 14/15/14 tapered spokes for $80.
> >
> > I contacted Bikes Direct about the problem. They said the spokes were not
> > defective, but they would replace them with same type if I sent the wheel
> > back. Considering that I would end up with the same problem, in my
> > estimation, and just be out shipping plus time, I passed.
> >
> > Anyway, I wish I had just respoked the thing after the first breaks. Given
> > how the spokes broke, it was clear, in hind sight, that the spokes were
> > bad.
> >
> > Live an learn. At least now I have a rear wheel I can rely on.
> >
> > Would I buy another Windsor Tourist? Sure, but I'd respoke the back wheel
> > immediately...or even better, have BikesDirect do it pre-sale with DT
> > tapered spokes at my cost.
> >
> > Other than the spokes, I like the bike a lot and would change nothing.
> >
> > - GRL
> >
>
> I have bought many bikes from Bikes Direct and they always have a disclaimer
> that tells you to get the bike assembled by a professional mechanic. It
> sounds like you skipped that part or the mechinic did a bad job of prepping
> the bike.

[[email protected]]

What are you talking about? I bought the bike from Bikes Direct and had
a LBS rebuild the wheel.

I don't mean to be rude, but read before you reply, guy.

- GRL

[[email protected]]

Oops, my apologies. I misinterpreted your reply. Shame on me.

You are quite right, except Bikes Direct does not assemble the bikes
they import from Taiwan and sell mail order. They just ship the box.
They do sell bikes in stores they own, though, so they presumably have
competent mechanics available. In any case, I think they'd tell me to
take a hike with such a request, anyway. Just a guess by me.

- GRL

[[email protected]]

I have no beef with Bikes Direct. Buying mail order is always a gamble.
I saved about $140 vs. buying a Fuji Touring locally (if the local Fuji
dealer would ever actually answer his phone for me to ask if he could
even get a Touring), and I spent $120 on fixing broken spokes and the
wheel rebuild...plus a couple of hours I sent setting the bike up. So I
saved nothing, but did end up with a bullet-proof rear wheel. I hope. A
LBS would presumably have replaced the crap spokes after five breaks,
but with 14 ga, not 14/15/14.

[[email protected]]

They appeared properly seated to my eyes and those of several people at
the LBS's, including the mechanics who worked on the wheel.

[[email protected]]

Wheelsets are where bike makers usually skimp on. Lower end bikes tend
to have weaker wheels.

[Frank Drackman]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> No, please re-read the post. You seem to have missed ssome facts. The
> rear wheel kept breaking spokes, in a very abnormal manner AFTER I had
> a LBS true the wheel (it really didn't need that) and check the spokes'
> tension. What, exactly, do you think should have been done beyond that,
> short of what I did, replace the crap spokes with DT spokes? Also, note
> the VERY abnormal failure mode. Good spokes don't break, but if they do
> it's at the bend, not at the flare. All of mine broke that way.
>
> The bike is good, the spokes are crap.
>
> - GRL
>

You might be correct that the spokes are crap and nothing could be done to
save them. If the wheel was in horrible shape, which I have seen with bikes
from bikesdirect, before the first ride it could have contributed to the
broken spokes. Was the wheel correctly tensioned before riding?

[Earl Bollinger]

"GLitwinski" > wrote in message
...
> Bought a Windsor Tourist steel frame touring bike from Bikes Direct
> earlier this year for $590. It's a Fuji Touring by another name. The gear
> shift train is Shimano Tiagra/Deore, brakes Tektro, frame chrome moly
> (which I wanted and which severely limited my choices), tires Kenda Euro,
> wheels/spokes/hubs no-name. Comes with plenty of braze-ons for fenders
> (which I wanted and added) and with an Al rack with stainless hardware.
> It's a heavy beast, just under 30 lb. fully outfitted with
> fenders/rack/speedo/kit bag/cage/Tektro suicide brake levers I added. I
> added clipless pedals to replace the standard clip type, too. I wanted an
> all weather, tough, smooth riding touring bike and that's mostly what I
> got. I have about 400 miles on it now.
>
> The one bad thing about it is that it came with real crap no-name spokes.
> I have broken five spokes on the rear wheel on three different rides (2 +
> 2 +1). This was with just the rider on the bike, no extra load. Had the
> broken spokes professionally replaced each time and the wheel trued after
> first instance and trued/tensioned after the second. All breaks were on
> hub side and all were at the flare that goes against the hub. No breaks
> where breaks almost always occur, at the bend. The spokes are clearly
> crap. Showed the broken spokes to two bike shops and no one had ever seen
> such a break. Finally, after blowing $42 on repairs, I had the wheel
> rebuilt with DT 14/15/14 tapered spokes for $80.
>
> I contacted Bikes Direct about the problem. They said the spokes were not
> defective, but they would replace them with same type if I sent the wheel
> back. Considering that I would end up with the same problem, in my
> estimation, and just be out shipping plus time, I passed.
>
> Anyway, I wish I had just respoked the thing after the first breaks. Given
> how the spokes broke, it was clear, in hind sight, that the spokes were
> bad.
>
> Live an learn. At least now I have a rear wheel I can rely on.
>
> Would I buy another Windsor Tourist? Sure, but I'd respoke the back wheel
> immediately...or even better, have BikesDirect do it pre-sale with DT
> tapered spokes at my cost.
>
> Other than the spokes, I like the bike a lot and would change nothing.
>
> - GRL
>

I have a Windsor Tourist too, and have had spokes break on the rear wheel
too.
My LBS felt that the hub itself was defective in that the spoke holes were
too large or angled incorrectly. Thus it was allowing the spokes to flex too
much or not enough causing the heads to break off. I replaced the rear wheel
with another one, and I haven't broke any spokes since.
So it may not be the spokes or the rim but a defective hub. Since the
difference is maybe one thousandth of a inch you can't really eyeball it.
I suspect there was a number of hubs made with holes too large or angled
incorrectly.
Another LBS mechanic says I could probably salvage the hub when I rebuild
the wheel by using special spoke washers on the hub end.
But I haven't done anything with the old wheel yet. I haven't decided if I
want to bother with it or not.
On my 46 mile round trip commutes to and from work, I have a couple of bad
stretches of road that is really hard on bike wheels. So having a really
good wheel on the rear solved my problems. I haven't had any spokes pop
since.

[rdclark]

wrote:
> Oops, my apologies. I misinterpreted your reply. Shame on me.
>
> You are quite right, except Bikes Direct does not assemble the bikes
> they import from Taiwan and sell mail order. They just ship the box.
> They do sell bikes in stores they own, though, so they presumably have
> competent mechanics available. In any case, I think they'd tell me to
> take a hike with such a request, anyway. Just a guess by me.

Wheel preparation (like fitting) is something that separates the good
shops from the bad ones. A good shop will stress-relieve, tension and
true the wheels on every bike they sell. They do this because they know
that machine built wheels are typically under-tensioned and not
stress-relieved, a sure predictor of early failure.

It doesn't have to be this way with mail order. I bought a bike from
Airborne a few years ago that came with hand-built touring wheels that
have been solid to this day, over 10,000 miles later.

But somebody has to pay for the time to do this work, unless you are
prepared to do it yourself. But it has to be done.

You may have had defective spokes, but even if not, I would have
expected you to have chronic wheel problems with that bike, unless you
had prepped the wheels properly before riding on them.

RichC

[nopcbs]

Just a cursory examination. Watching the wheels in rotation, they were
very close to perfectly "true". Essentially no visible wobble. The rear
wheel now has NO visible wobble at all.

I don't think it was a case of bad tensioning as that was checked when
the second pair of spokes were replaced. I have 34 miles on the rebuilt
rear wheel now with no broken spokes. Fingers still crossed, but I
think my problems are over.



- GRL
Frank Drackman wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > No, please re-read the post. You seem to have missed ssome facts. The
> > rear wheel kept breaking spokes, in a very abnormal manner AFTER I had
> > a LBS true the wheel (it really didn't need that) and check the spokes'
> > tension. What, exactly, do you think should have been done beyond that,
> > short of what I did, replace the crap spokes with DT spokes? Also, note
> > the VERY abnormal failure mode. Good spokes don't break, but if they do
> > it's at the bend, not at the flare. All of mine broke that way.
> >
> > The bike is good, the spokes are crap.
> >
> > - GRL
> >
>
> You might be correct that the spokes are crap and nothing could be done to
> save them. If the wheel was in horrible shape, which I have seen with bikes
> from bikesdirect, before the first ride it could have contributed to the
> broken spokes. Was the wheel correctly tensioned before riding?

[nopcbs]

You might be right. However, my old bike is a $200 Mongoose "comfort
bike" that I had problems with broken spokes on the rear wheel (those
broke at the bend, however, where you would expect them to, and I had
been running over-pressured street tires on). I eventually bought a $50
off-the-shelf wheel and quit over-pressuring the tires. That wheel now
has 4,000+ road miles on it with no more broken spokes. I know it was
not stress-relieved. I read The Bicycle Wheel and I believe you ab out
stress-relieving, but I think you can get good performance without it,
too. I think I'll ask the LBS that rebuilt my new wheel if they
stress-relieved it, just for grins.

By the way, the fellow at the LBS that did the rebuild told ne that he
had a recumbinant that kept breaking front spokes until he had that
wheel respoked and that put an end to the problem. Go figure.

[nopcbs]

Interesting. I guess we'll see if it's a bad hub or bad spokes that
caused my problem as I only replaced the spokes. I do know that none of
the spokes that broke were DT's. The odds were 2 in 18 and 4 in 18, so
statistically that may not mean much, though. If the new ones last a
week of daily 17 mile rides, that should settle the matter.

[Dane Jackson]

nopcbs > wrote:
>
> Just a cursory examination. Watching the wheels in rotation, they were
> very close to perfectly "true". Essentially no visible wobble. The rear
> wheel now has NO visible wobble at all.

A wheel that is true does not necessarily have even tension. That is
even more important than that the wheel doesn't wobble. You can have
a wheel with pretty drastically uneven tensions that is still straight.

Even if the tension is even, that doesn't mean you have *enough*
tension. Ideally your wheel should have been brought up to the point
of nearly taco'ing when it is stress-relieved, and then the tension
should have been backed down. You can have a straight wheel that is
true that will go all wobbly in less than 100 miles. Sigh. As I know
from personal experience.

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
I don't know everything, but I know a Matrix who does

[Earl Bollinger]

"nopcbs" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Interesting. I guess we'll see if it's a bad hub or bad spokes that
> caused my problem as I only replaced the spokes. I do know that none of
> the spokes that broke were DT's. The odds were 2 in 18 and 4 in 18, so
> statistically that may not mean much, though. If the new ones last a
> week of daily 17 mile rides, that should settle the matter.
>

Please let me know how it goes, I may want to get a bunch of DT spokes
myself it it solves the problem.
I originally thought the spokes were defective myself.
I have a big box of Taiwan made spokes, and as a spoke on the original wheel
broke, i would replace it with one of out of my box.
Except other spokes would break later, not the ones I replaced either.
So it could be defective spokes of some sort. In my case the little mushroom
head ends would pop off.
Thanks
Earl

[nopcbs]

Sure, In a week or two the matter should be clear and I'll let you
know.

- GRL

Earl Bollinger wrote:
> "nopcbs" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Interesting. I guess we'll see if it's a bad hub or bad spokes that
> > caused my problem as I only replaced the spokes. I do know that none of
> > the spokes that broke were DT's. The odds were 2 in 18 and 4 in 18, so
> > statistically that may not mean much, though. If the new ones last a
> > week of daily 17 mile rides, that should settle the matter.
> >
>
> Please let me know how it goes, I may want to get a bunch of DT spokes
> myself it it solves the problem.
> I originally thought the spokes were defective myself.
> I have a big box of Taiwan made spokes, and as a spoke on the original wheel
> broke, i would replace it with one of out of my box.
> Except other spokes would break later, not the ones I replaced either.
> So it could be defective spokes of some sort. In my case the little mushroom
> head ends would pop off.
> Thanks
> Earl