Interview with drug testing expert Dr. Don Catlin

[Pat]

This was in the July issue of Outside magazine. There are some interesting
tidbits in it.

"The A sample will be tested, the B used to confirm any positive results."

In Lance's case, the A sample was negative and the French used up all of the
B samples. So, what is left for an independent lab to confirm? Why didn't
the French keep some of the samples for confirmation testing?


"Athletes accused of doping can fight the charges by contesting them before
a panel of three arbitrators from the Lausanne-based Court of Arbitration
for Sport (CAS), the Supreme Court of sports doping. Should a test turn up
positive and be confirmed, punishment can range from a warning or suspension
to a lifetime ban, depending on the drug, the circumstances, and the
athlete's past record."

The tests on Lance's urine were not "positive and confirmed". And, the
athlete has NO past record or future record from 1999 showing any drug use.



"Using a hand pipette, she places some of the A sample in smaller glass
tubes, each for use in a separate test. While Chambers works, Hatton
explains that the B sample will be stored, to be opened only if the A is
positive. For a doping charge to stick, both A and B must be positive. Under
the rules, an athlete has the right to observe B-sample testing or send a
representative."

Both samples were NOT positive and the athlete was deprived of his right to
observe any testing.


"The Lasne test is an extremely complex procedure involving a biology lab
full of ingredients. It required nearly three days and dozens of steps,
mostly done by hand. The time factor is one reason why the Tour de France
relies more heavily on a simpler hematocrit test, a measure of the volume
percentage of red cells in the bloodstream. If a rider's hematocrit exceeds
50, the cyclist will be banned from starting that day."

And yet, Lance's hematocrit must not have exceeded 50, for he was allowed to
ride. And none of his tests that year (or any other year) showed positive
for EPO or other injectable drugs.



"Sounds good, but the test can detect exogenous EPO for only three days
after the last time an athlete injected it. Unfortunately for the testers,
the performance boost can last several weeks, and new red blood cells can
survive for about 120 days. So a cyclist could use EPO, stop four days
before a test, and still reap benefits."

And, if a person was doing this, wouldn't he be smart enough to know about
the limits of the test?


"When Allison Evans, who runs many of the EPO tests for Catlin, shows me the
results of one test, I think it looks positive. But after applying a
statistical analysis, she declares it negative. Catlin says he thinks his
lab, owing to caution, exonerates ten guilty EPO users for every one it
declares positive. He said he's so fed up with the politics of the tests
that he's decided not to reapply for a USADA grant that supports the EPO
research in his lab."

Oh yes, politics! Imagine that!


"Heid says the whole idea of routine testing for proteins is worrisome.
"Analyzing tiny amounts of samples belonging to the protein field gets
really complicated," he says. "Most of these methods for proteins are still
in development, in a research state, and not even useful in practical
work.""

But French newspapers can declare someone guilty without any scruples!

Pat in TX

[Rich Clark]

"Andrew Price" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:18:50 -0500, "Pat" > wrote:
>
>>In Lance's case, the A sample was negative and the French used up all of
>>the
>>B samples.
>
> I understand that this is not the case - there are remaining "B"
> samples. What is the source of your assertion?

I think one source of confusion is not understanding that the samples in
question are from the entire 1999 Tour - an A and a B sample from each of
many different days. In every case the A sample was used at the time.

RichC

[Roger Zoul]

Rich Clark > wrote:
:> "Andrew Price" > wrote in message
:> ...
:>> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:18:50 -0500, "Pat" > wrote:
:>>
:>>>In Lance's case, the A sample was negative and the French used up
:>>>all of the
:>>>B samples.
:>>
:>> I understand that this is not the case - there are remaining "B"
:>> samples. What is the source of your assertion?
:>
:> I think one source of confusion is not understanding that the
:> samples in question are from the entire 1999 Tour - an A and a B
:> sample from each of many different days. In every case the A sample
:> was used at the time.

Why have they not reported on any other riders in that tour? Or have they?

[Pat]

: >In Lance's case, the A sample was negative and the French used up all of
the
: >B samples.
:
: I understand that this is not the case - there are remaining "B"
: samples. What is the source of your assertion?

In the first reporting of the situation, other posters wrote that all of the
B samples were used.

Pat in TX

[Rich Clark]

"Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
...
> Why have they not reported on any other riders in that tour? Or have
> they?

L'Equipe is only interested in pillorying LA, is why. It's an irrational
hatred. That's why they will go to any lengths, including making **** up, to
discredit him.

The issue of "other riders" doesn't enter into it.

RichC

[Roger Zoul]

Rich Clark > wrote:
:> "Roger Zoul" > wrote in message
:> ...
:>> Why have they not reported on any other riders in that tour? Or
:>> have they?
:>
:> L'Equipe is only interested in pillorying LA, is why. It's an
:> irrational hatred. That's why they will go to any lengths, including
:> making **** up, to discredit him.
:>
:> The issue of "other riders" doesn't enter into it.

That what I thought...you'd think they at least try to put some other kind
of spin on it, though.

[Sock Puppet]

On 28-Aug-2005, "Rich Clark" > wrote:

> L'Equipe is only interested in pillorying LA, is why. It's an irrational
> hatred. That's why they will go to any lengths, including making **** up,
> to discredit him.

LA is doing a fine job of discrediting himself in his post competitive
cycling career. Participating in "The Tour de Crawford" is inexcusable.
--
Sock Puppet

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[Rich Clark]

"Sock Puppet" > wrote in message
...

> LA is doing a fine job of discrediting himself in his post competitive
> cycling career. Participating in "The Tour de Crawford" is inexcusable.

He wants the Administration to pour more money into cancer research. He's in
a unique position to lobby for his cause. I'd do the same, and I bet you
would, too. If you wouldn't, you'd have no business setting yourself up as a
premiere advocate for a cause.

Personally, doing what LA did (riding with the shrub) would turn my stomach,
and I probably couldn't bring myself to do it. But I don't have the kind of
single-minded passion that makes a champion (in several senses of the word).

RichC

[Robert Chung]

Pat wrote:
>>> In Lance's case, the A sample was negative and the French used up all
>>> of the B samples.
>>
>> I understand that this is not the case - there are remaining "B"
>> samples. What is the source of your assertion?
>
> In the first reporting of the situation, other posters wrote that all
> of the B samples were used.

All of the B samples from 1999 were *tested.* The EPO test doesn't use all
of each B sample, and there is enough remaining of each B sample so that
this test and perhaps others could be re-done.

[Robert Chung]

I wrote:

> and there is enough remaining of each B sample so
> that this test and perhaps others could be re-done.

I believe those re-tests are scheduled to occur right after hell freezes.

[Pat]

: I wrote:
:
: > and there is enough remaining of each B sample so
: > that this test and perhaps others could be re-done.
:
: I believe those re-tests are scheduled to occur right after hell freezes.

I don't remember seeing any disclaimer such as "and the remaining samples,
whose chain of evidence has been scrupulously documented, will be turned
over to WADA so that their labs can further test the urine in the presence
of the athlete as required by the agreed upon rules." Do you?

Pat in TX
:
:

[Robert Chung]

Pat wrote:
>> I wrote:
>>
>>> and there is enough remaining of each B sample so
>>> that this test and perhaps others could be re-done.
>>
>> I believe those re-tests are scheduled to occur right after hell
>> freezes.
>
> I don't remember seeing any disclaimer such as "and the remaining
> samples, whose chain of evidence has been scrupulously documented, will
> be turned over to WADA so that their labs can further test the urine in
> the presence of the athlete as required by the agreed upon rules."

That's why I don't think re-tests will occur. There's nothing to be
learned from them.

[Bob the Cow]

"Pat" > wrote in message
...
>
> In Lance's case, the A sample was negative and the French used up all of
> the
> B samples. So, what is left for an independent lab to confirm? Why didn't
> the French keep some of the samples for confirmation testing?

Because they used the B samples to improve the flavor of their domestic
wines.

[Pat]

: > I don't remember seeing any disclaimer such as "and the remaining
: > samples, whose chain of evidence has been scrupulously documented, will
: > be turned over to WADA so that their labs can further test the urine in
: > the presence of the athlete as required by the agreed upon rules."
:
: That's why I don't think re-tests will occur. There's nothing to be
: learned from them.
:
Oh yeah--there's always the possibility that the tests were actually
negative or weren't Lance's sample, or had been degraded so badly that
whoever read the tests was just guessing, or....

Pat in TX
:

[Robert Chung]

Pat wrote:
>>> I don't remember seeing any disclaimer such as "and the remaining
>>> samples, whose chain of evidence has been scrupulously documented,
>>> will be turned over to WADA so that their labs can further test the
>>> urine in the presence of the athlete as required by the agreed upon
>>> rules."
>>
>> That's why I don't think re-tests will occur. There's nothing to be
>> learned from them.
>>
> Oh yeah--there's always the possibility that the tests were actually
> negative or weren't Lance's sample, or had been degraded so badly that
> whoever read the tests was just guessing, or....

That would only be so if the chain of custody had been scrupulously
maintained. You've argued that it hasn't and, since it hasn't, it can have
no probative value. Chain of custody cuts both ways: if broken, it can
neither convict nor exonerate. That's why it won't get re-tested.

[jj]

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:08:33 +0200, "Robert Chung" >
wrote:

>Pat wrote:
>>>> I don't remember seeing any disclaimer such as "and the remaining
>>>> samples, whose chain of evidence has been scrupulously documented,
>>>> will be turned over to WADA so that their labs can further test the
>>>> urine in the presence of the athlete as required by the agreed upon
>>>> rules."
>>>
>>> That's why I don't think re-tests will occur. There's nothing to be
>>> learned from them.
>>>
>> Oh yeah--there's always the possibility that the tests were actually
>> negative or weren't Lance's sample, or had been degraded so badly that
>> whoever read the tests was just guessing, or....
>
>That would only be so if the chain of custody had been scrupulously
>maintained. You've argued that it hasn't and, since it hasn't, it can have
>no probative value. Chain of custody cuts both ways: if broken, it can
>neither convict nor exonerate. That's why it won't get re-tested.

I think Mike J said it best. "There's not adequate evidence to convict or
acquit, only to slander."

jj

[Pat]

:
: I think Mike J said it best. "There's not adequate evidence to convict or
: acquit, only to slander."
:
: jj

Yeah, and the French seem to be really good at that, don't they?

Pat in TX
:

[Chris BeHanna]

Sock Puppet wrote:

> On 28-Aug-2005, "Rich Clark" > wrote:
>
>
>>L'Equipe is only interested in pillorying LA, is why. It's an irrational
>>hatred. That's why they will go to any lengths, including making **** up,
>>to discredit him.
>
>
> LA is doing a fine job of discrediting himself in his post competitive
> cycling career. Participating in "The Tour de Crawford" is inexcusable.

To a sock puppet, perhaps.

--
Chris BeHanna

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[Robert Chung]

Pat wrote:
>> I think Mike J said it best. "There's not adequate evidence to convict
>> or acquit, only to slander."
>>
>> jj
>
> Yeah, and the French seem to be really good at that, don't they?

Hmmm. I'm guessing you don't have adequate evidence to convict or acquit
them of that charge, only to slander them.

[Sock Puppet]

On 28-Aug-2005, "Rich Clark" > wrote:

> Personally, doing what LA did (riding with the shrub) would turn my
> stomach, and I probably couldn't bring myself to do it.

Speaking of turning stomachs, if I met shrub, I might do what his father did
to the Japanese Prime Minister.

--
Sock Puppet

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[Pat]

: >> I think Mike J said it best. "There's not adequate evidence to convict
: >> or acquit, only to slander."
: >>
: >> jj
: >
: > Yeah, and the French seem to be really good at that, don't they?
:
: Hmmm. I'm guessing you don't have adequate evidence to convict or acquit
: them of that charge, only to slander them.

Let's review, shall we? First the French (or was it the Norwegians? The
Greeks?) give the official Tour de France samples to an unauthorized group.
They (wait, maybe it was the Russians? or the Finns?) do not make any
preparations to follow the Tour de France rules or even the rules of basic
fairness. Then, they (surely it must be the Portugese!) decide that secrecy
is the order of the day and do not let ANY of the athletes involved
participate. Then, they ( was it the Brazilian newspapers? the Canadians?)
declare Lance to be "guilty of doping" because "six" samples out of 17 have
been speculated to be positive. No mention of the other 11 samples. No
mention that the chain of evidence has been scrupulously followed and other,
authorized labs are welcome to duplicate the "positive results"---or even
that there remains sufficient samples to do further testing. Nope--it is
either "believe us!" or nothing.

Naw, nothing to "convict" the French in there, is there? It MUST be someone
else that concocted this hatchet job. No French newspaper would have any
type of animosity against Lance Armstrong, right?

We have a saying in Texas: Get Real!

Pat
:
:

[Zoot Katz]

Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:11:24 -0500, >,
"Pat" > wrote:

>
>:
>: I think Mike J said it best. "There's not adequate evidence to convict or
>: acquit, only to slander."
>:
>: jj
>
>Yeah, and the French seem to be really good at that, don't they?
>
It sure sounds that way.

"Lance is ready to do anything to keep his secret but I don't know how
long he can convince everybody of his innocence."
- Greg Lemond
--
zk

[Bill Sornson]

Zoot Katz wrote:
> Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:11:24 -0500, >,
> "Pat" > wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>>> I think Mike J said it best. "There's not adequate evidence to
>>> convict or acquit, only to slander."
>>>
>>> jj
>>
>> Yeah, and the French seem to be really good at that, don't they?
>>
> It sure sounds that way.
>
> "Lance is ready to do anything to keep his secret but I don't know how
> long he can convince everybody of his innocence."
> - Greg Lemond

Well, gee, HE sure doesn't have any reason to want to diminish Armstrong's
records or reputation.

[Zoot Katz]

Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:44:03 GMT,
>, "Bill Sornson"
> wrote:

>>>> I think Mike J said it best. "There's not adequate evidence to
>>>> convict or acquit, only to slander."
>>>>
>>>> jj
>>>
>>> Yeah, and the French seem to be really good at that, don't they?
>>>
>> It sure sounds that way.
>>
>> "Lance is ready to do anything to keep his secret but I don't know how
>> long he can convince everybody of his innocence."
>> - Greg Lemond
>
>Well, gee, HE sure doesn't have any reason to want to diminish Armstrong's
>records or reputation.

Well, he does have a French name, after all.
--
zk

[Bill Sornson]

Zoot Katz wrote:
> Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:44:03 GMT,
> >, "Bill Sornson"
> > wrote:
>
>>>>> I think Mike J said it best. "There's not adequate evidence to
>>>>> convict or acquit, only to slander."
>>>>>
>>>>> jj
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, and the French seem to be really good at that, don't they?
>>>>
>>> It sure sounds that way.
>>>
>>> "Lance is ready to do anything to keep his secret but I don't know
>>> how long he can convince everybody of his innocence."
>>> - Greg Lemond
>>
>> Well, gee, HE sure doesn't have any reason to want to diminish
>> Armstrong's records or reputation.
>
> Well, he does have a French name, after all.

That too!

:-D