Full suspension bike for $1600 or less

[Doug Jordan]

What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around $1500? It must
have decent components.

Thanks

[small change]

Doug Jordan wrote:
> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around $1500? It
> must have decent components.
>
> Thanks

there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard tail, go
used, or up your budget.

[cc]

"small change" > wrote in message
...
> Doug Jordan wrote:
>> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around $1500? It
>> must have decent components.
>>
>> Thanks
>
> there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard tail, go
> used, or up your budget.

I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.

[Red_Ivan]

> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.

(may be a double post - google doesn't like me right now)

You may be able to find a year end closeout (2k down to 1.5k). Maybe a
demo or 2 year old bike at a deeper discount. You could get a LX build
superlight for 1.5k (But I probably wouldn't).

[Marc]

cc wrote:
> "small change" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Doug Jordan wrote:
>>
>>>What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around $1500? It
>>>must have decent components.
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>
>>there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard tail, go
>>used, or up your budget.
>
>
> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.
>
>


I think Jamis bikes offer some of the best specs for the money

check out (2003 version here, but you get the idea):

from Mountain Bike magazxine:



Jamis Dakar XC Comp
You'll find great quality and comfort for a price that will provide you
with awesome specs.

Price: $1,360

Buy It If: You're an intermediate rider looking for your first
full-suspension bike.

This bike rocks because: Four-bar suspension and quality components
combine for a comfortable and efficient ride. Plus, it offers a very
strong parts spec for the money.

Significant Others: Kona Kikapu Deluxe ($1,899); Yeti Kokopelli Race
Disc ($2,389); Iron Horse Hollowpoint Expert ($2,400); Specialized Epic
FSR Pro ($3,040); Klein Palomino Team ($4,100).

April 2003

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

cc wrote:
> "small change" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Doug Jordan wrote:
>>> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around $1500? It
>>> must have decent components.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>
>> there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard
>> tail, go used, or up your budget.
>
> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.

That's true. We're actually selling new 2004 Stumpy FSRs with Fox Float
forks for $1399. Doug, check your e-mail.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

[x1134x]

How much of that price is pure profit? JEEZ! If you add up all the
componentry of one of those it couldn't possibly cost that much could
it?

So aluminum frame not titanium, <-- budget

I would have to say there must be 50% markup on those things, but maybe
I"m smoking crack. A person with the jig already made should be able
to weld up at least 20 frames a day and even at $50/hr, the labor on
the welded parts should be $20 each. Then there is assembly and tuning
and that's it for labor, say maybe $120 labor throughout. What do you
guys think the materials to make these things cost? (not what does each
part cost @ webcyclery,) what does it cost the manufacturer to buy the
parts?

[Tim]

On 2005-09-09, x1134x > wrote:
> How much of that price is pure profit? JEEZ! If you add up all the
> componentry of one of those it couldn't possibly cost that much could
> it?
>
> So aluminum frame not titanium, <-- budget
>
> I would have to say there must be 50% markup on those things, but maybe
> I"m smoking crack. A person with the jig already made should be able
> to weld up at least 20 frames a day and even at $50/hr, the labor on
> the welded parts should be $20 each. Then there is assembly and tuning
> and that's it for labor, say maybe $120 labor throughout. What do you
> guys think the materials to make these things cost? (not what does each
> part cost @ webcyclery,) what does it cost the manufacturer to buy the
> parts?
>

Look up Ceeway or one of the other frame component suppliers to
get an idea for a what a tubeset would cost if you were to weld up your
own bike. I'm sure somebody could make a guess at what Giant pay based
on their ginormous purchasing power.

Don't forget that materials cost can have little to do with the
price of the product in the shop. Supporting design, testing, marketing,
sales, staff training, tools and equipment and myriad other things can
easily make the cost of a product's materials pale into irrelevance but
are all expenses which much be supported by the product's sale even when
only looking at the price from the manufacturer.
--
Tim.

[x1134x]

Are different bike setups ie suspension designs, tube count, tube
design, patented so that the manufacturers pay each other royalties?
Do you think some of the designs are so old they've outlived patents?

[Tim]

On 2005-09-09, x1134x > wrote:
> Are different bike setups ie suspension designs, tube count, tube
> design, patented so that the manufacturers pay each other royalties?
> Do you think some of the designs are so old they've outlived patents?
>

Well, diamond frame bikes have been around for so long that no
sane patent system would still cover them. Specific features (like Horst
link rear suspension) might be covered by patents though.

In the UK/ EU there must be an inventive step and the subject of
the patent should be novel and non-obvious to sombody knowlegable in the
field for a patent to be granted. By reputation USPTO will grant a
patent to any rubbish claim....

For something like a rigid/ hardtail there's only a finite
amount of variation & unless a company could prove you'd copied their
design exactly (same tubes, angles, any "signature" features) and
could possibly take action on copyright grounds there would be nothing
on which to claim.

--
Tim.

[JD]

cc wrote:
> "small change" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Doug Jordan wrote:
> >> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around $1500? It
> >> must have decent components.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >
> > there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard tail, go
> > used, or up your budget.


True, save and go boutique (just for you, Rimmer).

> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.


You disagree because you don't know what you arte talking about. The
OP stated "good, reliable, durable" as key points. That's not possible
for around $1500.

[cc]

"JD" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> cc wrote:
>> "small change" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Doug Jordan wrote:
>> >> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around $1500? It
>> >> must have decent components.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >
>> > there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard tail,
>> > go
>> > used, or up your budget.
>
>
> True, save and go boutique (just for you, Rimmer).
>
>> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.
>
>
> You disagree because you don't know what you arte talking about. The
> OP stated "good, reliable, durable" as key points. That's not possible
> for around $1500.

That is your opinion. I have many data points to the contrary of that
opinion. You should stop being an asshole and realize there are others
besides you with valid things to say.

[czb]

cc wrote:
> "JD" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > cc wrote:
> >> "small change" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Doug Jordan wrote:
> >> >> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around $1500? It
> >> >> must have decent components.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks
> >> >
> >> > there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard tail,
> >> > go
> >> > used, or up your budget.
> >
> >
> > True, save and go boutique (just for you, Rimmer).
> >
> >> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.
> >
> >
> > You disagree because you don't know what you arte talking about. The
> > OP stated "good, reliable, durable" as key points. That's not possible
> > for around $1500.
>
> That is your opinion. I have many data points to the contrary of that
> opinion. You should stop being an asshole and realize there are others
> besides you with valid things to say.




--------------------


For about $1,500 a stumpjumper FSR (04) is an excellent bike, as some
have written. You can do somme flexible things with your budget.
First the M4 frame is a good frame. The stock wheels and LX
componentry are not so good, though. The disc brakes are good. You
can get the FSR without disc brakes to save money and apply the
difference to a better drive train, or not and do it later, or get
lighter, better wheels. Point is that 1500 will get up on an excellent
FS bike that is very durable, and very flexibly upgradable. It's light
and can be raced. Tough and can take a beating for lots of XC miles
and fair amount of downhill.

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

czb wrote:
> cc wrote:
>> "JD" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>>
>>> cc wrote:
>>>> "small change" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Doug Jordan wrote:
>>>>>> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around
>>>>>> $1500? It must have decent components.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard
>>>>> tail, go
>>>>> used, or up your budget.
>>>
>>>
>>> True, save and go boutique (just for you, Rimmer).
>>>
>>>> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.
>>>
>>>
>>> You disagree because you don't know what you arte talking about.
>>> The OP stated "good, reliable, durable" as key points. That's not
>>> possible for around $1500.
>>
>> That is your opinion. I have many data points to the contrary of that
>> opinion. You should stop being an asshole and realize there are
>> others besides you with valid things to say.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------
>
>
> For about $1,500 a stumpjumper FSR (04) is an excellent bike, as some
> have written. You can do somme flexible things with your budget.
> First the M4 frame is a good frame. The stock wheels and LX
> componentry are not so good, though. The disc brakes are good. You
> can get the FSR without disc brakes to save money and apply the
> difference to a better drive train, or not and do it later, or get
> lighter, better wheels. Point is that 1500 will get up on an
> excellent FS bike that is very durable, and very flexibly upgradable.
> It's light and can be raced. Tough and can take a beating for lots
> of XC miles and fair amount of downhill.

The thing that gets me is that there are no valid data points for buying
boutique at this level. It's pretty obvious that the OP isn't a
high-mileage rider, so why would a newbie be looking for a boutique bike
that is overengineered for him or her?

IMO, there's no reason for a new rider to be spending $1.5k on a hardtail
when he doesn't know if he's going to be a weekend warrior or a epic
marathon rider. Besides, Stumpjumpers are more than adequate for long
rides, and unless the bike is abused or takes ridiculously high mileage,
it'll hold up. Good, handbuilt wheels are a far more important upgrade.
Boutique brands are there for people who know that boutique bikes are what
they need. Would you give your teenager a Bentley?

And no, I don't have a vested bike shop interest... I'd recommend buying
slightly used but a year or two old... that's what I end up doing half the
time anyway... or welding broken (aluminum!) frames and riding them...
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

[Corvus Corvax]

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
>
> IMO, there's no reason for a new rider to be spending $1.5k on a hardtail
> when he doesn't know if he's going to be a weekend warrior or a epic
> marathon rider.

This logic rather escapes me. If somebody is looking to plunk down
$1.5K, you're suggesting they would be better off getting a
barely-adequate full suspension over a high-end hardtail?

JD, bless his pointed head, is, uh, a little dogmatic on the boutique
thing. But he is spot on with regard to the stupid emphasis on empty
technology as a substitute for quality (in the bike) and skill (in the
rider). $1.5K will buy you:

(a) A custom (or almost) singlespeed.
(b) A high-end stock hardtail.
(c) A seriously mediocre full suspension.

Take your pick.

CC

P.S.: FSRs are about the most overrated bike I can think of.

[czb]

Corvus Corvax wrote:
> Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
> >
> > IMO, there's no reason for a new rider to be spending $1.5k on a hardtail
> > when he doesn't know if he's going to be a weekend warrior or a epic
> > marathon rider.
>
> This logic rather escapes me. If somebody is looking to plunk down
> $1.5K, you're suggesting they would be better off getting a
> barely-adequate full suspension over a high-end hardtail?
>
> JD, bless his pointed head, is, uh, a little dogmatic on the boutique
> thing. But he is spot on with regard to the stupid emphasis on empty
> technology as a substitute for quality (in the bike) and skill (in the
> rider). $1.5K will buy you:
>
> (a) A custom (or almost) singlespeed.
> (b) A high-end stock hardtail.
> (c) A seriously mediocre full suspension.
>
> Take your pick.
>
> CC
>
> P.S.: FSRs are about the most overrated bike I can think of.

that's a bunch of crap. a rider with a worry about spending $1500 and
not sure of what to buy is an inexperienced rider, so even if a good
single speed can be acquired for $1500 - not by seven for sure -
they're probably not fit enough to handle a ss. the post specifically
asked for fs, so while a very good hard tail can be acquired for 1500,
that's not what he asked for advice on. the assertion that 1500 can't
acquire a decent fs is bs. you just have to be creative. and that
means putting your dollars where they count - wheels and frame, and
upgrading componetry later. the ps is crap too. the fsr is an
outstanding $1500 purchase for what this rider/poster probably is - a
somewhat new rider still learning, but wanting a fs for reasons of
his/her own. maybe what you mean is you have a hard time riding an fsr
very fast and for you it's over-rated?

[Corvus Corvax]

czb wrote:
> a rider with a worry about spending $1500 and
> not sure of what to buy is an inexperienced rider

A rider looking to spend $1500 is somebody who is ready to become an
experienced rider. Or an asshole. The asshole won't take good advice
anyway.

CC

[Slack]

x1134x wrote:

> How much of that price is pure profit? JEEZ! If you add up all the
> componentry of one of those it couldn't possibly cost that much could
> it?
>
> So aluminum frame not titanium, <-- budget
>
> I would have to say there must be 50% markup on those things, but maybe
> I"m smoking crack. A person with the jig already made should be able
> to weld up at least 20 frames a day and even at $50/hr, the labor on
> the welded parts should be $20 each. Then there is assembly and tuning
> and that's it for labor, say maybe $120 labor throughout. What do you
> guys think the materials to make these things cost? (not what does each
> part cost @ webcyclery,) what does it cost the manufacturer to buy the
> parts?
>

I don't know bout that frame or their markup, but you're missing a lot
work/time involved. After welding theres deburring, straightening, heat
treat, anodize, prime and paint. Heat treat, anodize and paint all have
a minimum charge. Alum cost is still going thru the roof and some sizes
(normally stocked) are now nowhere to be found. Alum tubing is
sometimes a premium, especially odd ball/custom sizes.

I'm sure there's some fat built into the selling price, but manf. cost
might be more $$ then you think.

FWIW, I do business with some machine shops that have done business with
cookie cutter and boutique manufacturers; (quality) machine time and
outside/special processing aint cheap. The boutique builders aren't
afraid to pay for quality work and keep it as close to home as
possible... it's a nice thing to know and helps me to open up my wallet
a little more to help them stay in business. We might not like the
prices, but trust me, it would be a cry'n shame if we were to lose them.
--
Slack - reformed cookie buyer

[Ride-A-Lot]

Slack wrote:
> Slack - reformed cookie buyer

http://tinyurl.com/1hs

--
o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
www.schnauzers.ws

[czb]

but at least agree that 1500 can still buy a lotta bike if you buy smart

[Ride-A-Lot]

Slack wrote:
> Slack - reformed cookie buyer

http://tinyurl.com/aw8nt

Well shiat! That first one worked well. Sorry.

--
o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
www.schnauzers.ws

[Slack]

Ride-A-Lot wrote:

> Slack wrote:
>
>> Slack - reformed cookie buyer
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/1hs
>


That's jacked up, Sharapova is out :-( She's one hot cookie :-)
http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/106644.jpg

---
Slack

[Slack]

Ride-A-Lot wrote:

> Slack wrote:
>
>> Slack - reformed cookie buyer
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/aw8nt
>
> Well shiat! That first one worked well. Sorry.
>

lol
--
Slack

[x1134x]

I think the economic trends in this country will drown out those shops,
most specialty item businesses will probably shift storefronts from
local service to website-based national service to stay in business.
Too many mega-companies can deliver the bread and butter stuff for much
cheaper on a world-wide scale.

deburring takes like what, 2 minutes per frame? my experince with
welding shops comes from visiting the dragster and funnycar
manufacturers in CA. That dude could weld fast with all the jigs he
had, he build half a dragster in the 3 hours we were there. Which
brings up another question i had. Race cars NEVER paint the cromoly
tubing. What would be wrong with not painting a bicycle? Chroming it
would Look kick ass but make it weigh as much as steel probably.

BTW I was at the LBS today getting new pedals for my BSO, and was
looking @ the welds on some of the Gary Fischer and Specialized bikes
that were CHICKEN SCAT. It was obvious there was poor penetration and
gaps. I think the LBS owner should have sent them back not put them up
for display. Some of the bikes of the same make and design next to
them had flawless welds however.

[x1134x]

I find it hilarious that even at this price level you guys refer to the
bikes as MEDIOCRE.

are these good bikes or are they BSOs? They seem novel and
interesting. There is a sport model available as well for like 1100

http://www.cyclesourcegroup.com/rubiconawd.html

I prefer BST for bicycle shaped TOY, although even the $3000 treks are
still toys.

[x1134x]

I find it hilarious that even @ this price level you refer to the bikes
as "mediocre"

What do you guys think of these bikes: BSO's or good?
http://www.cyclesourcegroup.com/rubiconawd.html

they look pretty cool, and have some amount of INNOVATION in them.
there is also a "Sport" model that is AWD for like 1100

Doug, seriously, for 1500:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Yamaha-YZF-250-4-stroke_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ50053QQitemZ4573 231689QQrdZ1

Good, reliable, durable, dual suspension.

[Slack]

x1134x wrote:

> deburring takes like what, 2 minutes per frame? my experince with
> welding shops comes from visiting the dragster and funnycar
> manufacturers in CA. That dude could weld fast with all the jigs he
> had, he build half a dragster in the 3 hours we were there.


Quick and dirty steel welding is a whole different thing than thin
walled AL tube welding. Ti welding even more involved.


> Which brings up another question i had. Race cars NEVER paint the cromoly
> tubing. What would be wrong with not painting a bicycle? Chroming it
> would Look kick ass but make it weigh as much as steel probably.


Again, we have cheap chrome, expensive good chrome and hard chrome,
which we use in Aerospace. Cheap chrome serves no other purpose but for
decoration. Chrome is so frig'n hard it's tendency is to crack, not a
good finish for a Mtb bike. Hard chrome is an art form in itself, and
expensive. Every engineering choice has it's own drawbacks. It takes a
wise designer that has been around the block to put everything together
tailored for it's intended use/customers, at a marketable selling point.
Not an easy job.


> BTW I was at the LBS today getting new pedals for my BSO, and was
> looking @ the welds on some of the Gary Fischer and Specialized bikes
> that were CHICKEN SCAT. It was obvious there was poor penetration and
> gaps. I think the LBS owner should have sent them back not put them up
> for display. Some of the bikes of the same make and design next to
> them had flawless welds however.
>

Don't know about the GF, but Special Eds are made overseas.
--
Slack

[Slack]

x1134x wrote:

> I find it hilarious that even @ this price level you refer to the bikes
> as "mediocre"
>
> What do you guys think of these bikes: BSO's or good?
> http://www.cyclesourcegroup.com/rubiconawd.html


Here's a little writeup http://leelikesbikes.com/Stories/112104/



Personally, I would never buy anything with the Jeep name slapped on it,
car, bike, or otherwise.
--
Slack

[G.T.]

"x1134x" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I find it hilarious that even @ this price level you refer to the bikes
> as "mediocre"
>
> What do you guys think of these bikes: BSO's or good?
> http://www.cyclesourcegroup.com/rubiconawd.html
>
> they look pretty cool, and have some amount of INNOVATION in them.
> there is also a "Sport" model that is AWD for like 1100
>
> Doug, seriously, for 1500:
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Yamaha-YZF-250-4-stroke_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ50053QQitemZ4573 231689QQrdZ1
>
> Good, reliable, durable, dual suspension.
>

How much is that new? Hell, the auction ain't even over yet, report back
then.

Greg

[MattB]

Slack wrote:
<snip>
> Don't know about the GF, but Special Eds are made overseas.

The S-Works are made domestically, or they were last time I bought one.
Too bad about the others. I've seen pretty good quality from Specialized
(non S-Works too) in the past.

Matt

[Slack]

MattB wrote:
> Slack wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>Don't know about the GF, but Special Eds are made overseas.
>
>
> The S-Works are made domestically, or they were last time I bought one.
> Too bad about the others. I've seen pretty good quality from Specialized
> (non S-Works too) in the past.
>
> Matt


Ah, didn't know that... thanks for the correction.

I've always liked Specialized bikes. I think they make some nice stuff
and at a great price. But I haven't been following their product line
very close the past couple of years.
--
Slack

[x1134x]

lol! Took google hours to add this post so I added it again.

[x1134x]

you can search completed ads if you have an ebay account. YZF 250s
sell for around 2400. but you can hope to win this one because he has
already met his reserve. .. . .

[x1134x]

>Quick and dirty steel welding is a whole different thing than thin
>walled AL tube welding. Ti welding even more involved.

not an attempt to troll but:
These cars are not "Quick and dirty steel welding" they go 320+ MPH
two inches off the ground with a human inside them. The chassis welds
must be inspected to be allowed to race and must be reinspected each
year. A chassis -- which usually has a wheelbase of between 285 and 300
inches -- is fabricated from 300 feet of 4130 chromoly tubing and costs
between $30,000 and $40,000. The chassis alone weighs approximately 600
pounds.

[x1134x]

>Quick and dirty steel welding is a whole different thing than thin
>walled AL tube welding. Ti welding even more involved.

not an attempt to troll but:
These cars are not "Quick and dirty steel welding" they go 320+ MPH
two inches off the ground with a human inside them. The chassis welds
must be inspected to be allowed to race and must be reinspected each
year. A chassis -- which usually has a wheelbase of between 285 and 300
inches -- is fabricated from 300 feet of 4130 chromoly tubing and costs
between $30,000 and $40,000. The chassis alone weighs approximately 600
pounds.

[x1134x]

21. x1134x Sep 10, 12:50 am show options

Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike
From: "x1134x" > - Find messages by this author
Date: 9 Sep 2005 23:50:15 -0700
Local: Sat, Sep 10 2005 12:50 am
Subject: Re: Full suspension bike for $1600 or less
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Remove | Report Abuse



>Quick and dirty steel welding is a whole different thing than thin
>walled AL tube welding. Ti welding even more involved.


not an attempt to troll but:
These cars are not "Quick and dirty steel welding" they go 320+ MPH
two inches off the ground with a human inside them. The chassis welds
must be inspected to be allowed to race and must be reinspected each
year. A chassis -- which usually has a wheelbase of between 285 and 300

inches -- is fabricated from 300 feet of 4130 chromoly tubing and costs

between $30,000 and $40,000. The chassis alone weighs approximately 600

pounds.

i think either google sux or i have a spyware program that interferes
with google, cuz I swear I clicked reply under this message not at the
bottom. . . .

[x1134x]

and not 3 times!

[Slack]

x1134x wrote:
>>Quick and dirty steel welding is a whole different thing than thin
>>walled AL tube welding. Ti welding even more involved.
>
>
> not an attempt to troll but:
> These cars are not "Quick and dirty steel welding" they go 320+ MPH
> two inches off the ground with a human inside them. The chassis welds
> must be inspected to be allowed to race and must be reinspected each
> year. A chassis -- which usually has a wheelbase of between 285 and 300
> inches -- is fabricated from 300 feet of 4130 chromoly tubing and costs
> between $30,000 and $40,000. The chassis alone weighs approximately 600
> pounds.
>

You're making a bad assumption: Quick & dirty does not mean ineffective
or poor quality.

Different materials require different techniques... Some are easier than
other to work with:
http://www.aws.org/wj/supplement/04-2002-QUINN-s.pdf

[JD]

cc wrote:
> "JD" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > cc wrote:
> >> "small change" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Doug Jordan wrote:
> >> >> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around $1500? It
> >> >> must have decent components.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks
> >> >
> >> > there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard tail,
> >> > go
> >> > used, or up your budget.
> >
> >
> > True, save and go boutique (just for you, Rimmer).
> >
> >> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.
> >
> >
> > You disagree because you don't know what you arte talking about. The
> > OP stated "good, reliable, durable" as key points. That's not possible
> > for around $1500.
>
> That is your opinion. I have many data points to the contrary of that
> opinion. You should stop being an asshole and realize there are others
> besides you with valid things to say.


Save your "data points" for brown nosing your boss because they have no
place in the real world of bicycling. Your name calling certainly
makes your "data points" much more valid. Now go ride your bike.

JD

[x1134x]

It Sold for exacly 1500!

[Paladin]

"czb" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> but at least agree that 1500 can still buy a lotta bike if you buy smart
>
I agree. For example, this ain't a bad deal if you're a clydesdale.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7180490408&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

CDB

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

MattB wrote:
> Slack wrote:
> <snip>
>> Don't know about the GF, but Special Eds are made overseas.
>
> The S-Works are made domestically, or they were last time I bought
> one. Too bad about the others. I've seen pretty good quality from
> Specialized (non S-Works too) in the past.

And we've seen **** quality, too. It seems to be that Specialized's Sirrus
Sport Disc forks that are made in China have disc brake tabs that are merely
tacked into place. It seems that every single new one that comes in the
shop looks like you could blow on it and it would break.

Fortunately, there haven't been any recalls or any reports of our customers
eating it because their front brake mount failed.

If you have the chance to look at this specific fork in your local shop,
please do and you'll see what I mean.

On the other hand, almost all of the other Specialized bikes we carry appear
to be made very well. No spontaneous frame breakages on bikes within the
last 7 model years. The nice thing about it is that Specialized actually
still carries swingarms and parts for frames from the late 90's!

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

[G.T.]

"x1134x" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> It Sold for exacly 1500!
>

Wow. Depreciation is worse on motos than bicycles. I wonder why that is?
Sport that's getting close to extinction?

Greg

[G.T.]

"Paladin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "czb" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > but at least agree that 1500 can still buy a lotta bike if you buy smart
> >
> I agree. For example, this ain't a bad deal if you're a clydesdale.
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7180490408&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
>

Sounds like it is stolen since he doesn't seem to know what he's talking
about.

Greg

[Paladin]

"G.T." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paladin" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "czb" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > but at least agree that 1500 can still buy a lotta bike if you buy
>> > smart
>> >
>> I agree. For example, this ain't a bad deal if you're a clydesdale.
>>
>>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7180490408&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
>>
>
> Sounds like it is stolen since he doesn't seem to know what he's talking
> about.
>
> Greg
>
I thought the same thing, so I corresponded with the seller, got extra
pictures, etc., seller seemed eager to provide info, but was so ignorant she
couldn't draw any bids. I would have bought it if she could have sent me
one simple measurement to prove it was L, and not XL. Said she was selling
it for somebody else, of course.

CDB

[cc]

"JD" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> cc wrote:
>> "JD" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> > cc wrote:
>> >> "small change" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > Doug Jordan wrote:
>> >> >> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around $1500?
>> >> >> It
>> >> >> must have decent components.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks
>> >> >
>> >> > there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard
>> >> > tail,
>> >> > go
>> >> > used, or up your budget.
>> >
>> >
>> > True, save and go boutique (just for you, Rimmer).
>> >
>> >> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.
>> >
>> >
>> > You disagree because you don't know what you arte talking about. The
>> > OP stated "good, reliable, durable" as key points. That's not possible
>> > for around $1500.
>>
>> That is your opinion. I have many data points to the contrary of that
>> opinion. You should stop being an asshole and realize there are others
>> besides you with valid things to say.
>
>
> Save your "data points" for brown nosing your boss because they have no
> place in the real world of bicycling. Your name calling certainly
> makes your "data points" much more valid. Now go ride your bike.
>

"data" is useful for formulating arguments based on "logic" rather than
bullheaded arrogance. You should try it sometime.

[JD]

cc wrote:
> "JD" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > cc wrote:
> >> "JD" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> >
> >> > cc wrote:
> >> >> "small change" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> > Doug Jordan wrote:
> >> >> >> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around $1500?
> >> >> >> It
> >> >> >> must have decent components.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Thanks
> >> >> >
> >> >> > there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard
> >> >> > tail,
> >> >> > go
> >> >> > used, or up your budget.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > True, save and go boutique (just for you, Rimmer).
> >> >
> >> >> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > You disagree because you don't know what you arte talking about. The
> >> > OP stated "good, reliable, durable" as key points. That's not possible
> >> > for around $1500.
> >>
> >> That is your opinion. I have many data points to the contrary of that
> >> opinion. You should stop being an asshole and realize there are others
> >> besides you with valid things to say.
> >
> >
> > Save your "data points" for brown nosing your boss because they have no
> > place in the real world of bicycling. Your name calling certainly
> > makes your "data points" much more valid. Now go ride your bike.
> >
>
> "data" is useful for formulating arguments based on "logic" rather than
> bullheaded arrogance. You should try it sometime.


What may seem logical to you, certainly seems illogical to me. My
opinions are based on experience in mountainbiking, not some fabricated
"data" made up from corporate buzzword BS.

JD

[cc]

"JD" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> cc wrote:
>> "JD" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> >
>> > cc wrote:
>> >> "JD" > wrote in message
>> >> oups.com...
>> >> >
>> >> > cc wrote:
>> >> >> "small change" > wrote in message
>> >> >> ...
>> >> >> > Doug Jordan wrote:
>> >> >> >> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around
>> >> >> >> $1500?
>> >> >> >> It
>> >> >> >> must have decent components.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Thanks
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard
>> >> >> > tail,
>> >> >> > go
>> >> >> > used, or up your budget.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > True, save and go boutique (just for you, Rimmer).
>> >> >
>> >> >> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > You disagree because you don't know what you arte talking about.
>> >> > The
>> >> > OP stated "good, reliable, durable" as key points. That's not
>> >> > possible
>> >> > for around $1500.
>> >>
>> >> That is your opinion. I have many data points to the contrary of that
>> >> opinion. You should stop being an asshole and realize there are others
>> >> besides you with valid things to say.
>> >
>> >
>> > Save your "data points" for brown nosing your boss because they have no
>> > place in the real world of bicycling. Your name calling certainly
>> > makes your "data points" much more valid. Now go ride your bike.
>> >
>>
>> "data" is useful for formulating arguments based on "logic" rather than
>> bullheaded arrogance. You should try it sometime.
>
>
> What may seem logical to you, certainly seems illogical to me. My
> opinions are based on experience in mountainbiking, not some fabricated
> "data" made up from corporate buzzword BS.
>

You're right. I should stop reading biking magazines and regurgitating the
hype here. What was I thinking?

Again, JD, there are others out there who - while not as "hardcore" as you
think you are - have biking experience and friends with like experiences.

The point you seem to miss is that you thinking it is illogical does not
make it incorrect. Respecting others' opinions is a sign of maturity that
you direly lack.

[JD]

cc wrote:
> "JD" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > cc wrote:
> >> "JD" > wrote in message
> >> ups.com...
> >> >
> >> > cc wrote:
> >> >> "JD" > wrote in message
> >> >> oups.com...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > cc wrote:
> >> >> >> "small change" > wrote in message
> >> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> > Doug Jordan wrote:
> >> >> >> >> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around
> >> >> >> >> $1500?
> >> >> >> >> It
> >> >> >> >> must have decent components.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Thanks
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard
> >> >> >> > tail,
> >> >> >> > go
> >> >> >> > used, or up your budget.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > True, save and go boutique (just for you, Rimmer).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You disagree because you don't know what you arte talking about.
> >> >> > The
> >> >> > OP stated "good, reliable, durable" as key points. That's not
> >> >> > possible
> >> >> > for around $1500.
> >> >>
> >> >> That is your opinion. I have many data points to the contrary of that
> >> >> opinion. You should stop being an asshole and realize there are others
> >> >> besides you with valid things to say.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Save your "data points" for brown nosing your boss because they have no
> >> > place in the real world of bicycling. Your name calling certainly
> >> > makes your "data points" much more valid. Now go ride your bike.
> >> >
> >>
> >> "data" is useful for formulating arguments based on "logic" rather than
> >> bullheaded arrogance. You should try it sometime.
> >
> >
> > What may seem logical to you, certainly seems illogical to me. My
> > opinions are based on experience in mountainbiking, not some fabricated
> > "data" made up from corporate buzzword BS.
> >
>
> You're right. I should stop reading biking magazines and regurgitating the
> hype here. What was I thinking?


Stop reading the big bike propaganda while you're at it.

> Again, JD, there are others out there who - while not as "hardcore" as you
> think you are - have biking experience and friends with like experiences.


That's the kicker here, pal. Nobody here knows you and several here do
know me and have ridden with me. You have zero credibility.

> The point you seem to miss is that you thinking it is illogical does not
> make it incorrect. Respecting others' opinions is a sign of maturity that
> you direly lack.


I don't respect regurgitated propaganda in any realm. You should have
ended your post with more name calling. It would have lent much more
to your idea of "maturity".

JD

[cc]

"JD" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> cc wrote:
>> "JD" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> > cc wrote:
>> >> "JD" > wrote in message
>> >> ups.com...
>> >> >
>> >> > cc wrote:
>> >> >> "JD" > wrote in message
>> >> >> oups.com...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > cc wrote:
>> >> >> >> "small change" > wrote in message
>> >> >> >> ...
>> >> >> >> > Doug Jordan wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around
>> >> >> >> >> $1500?
>> >> >> >> >> It
>> >> >> >> >> must have decent components.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Thanks
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice
>> >> >> >> > hard
>> >> >> >> > tail,
>> >> >> >> > go
>> >> >> >> > used, or up your budget.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > True, save and go boutique (just for you, Rimmer).
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > You disagree because you don't know what you arte talking about.
>> >> >> > The
>> >> >> > OP stated "good, reliable, durable" as key points. That's not
>> >> >> > possible
>> >> >> > for around $1500.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That is your opinion. I have many data points to the contrary of
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> opinion. You should stop being an asshole and realize there are
>> >> >> others
>> >> >> besides you with valid things to say.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Save your "data points" for brown nosing your boss because they have
>> >> > no
>> >> > place in the real world of bicycling. Your name calling certainly
>> >> > makes your "data points" much more valid. Now go ride your bike.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> "data" is useful for formulating arguments based on "logic" rather
>> >> than
>> >> bullheaded arrogance. You should try it sometime.
>> >
>> >
>> > What may seem logical to you, certainly seems illogical to me. My
>> > opinions are based on experience in mountainbiking, not some fabricated
>> > "data" made up from corporate buzzword BS.
>> >
>>
>> You're right. I should stop reading biking magazines and regurgitating
>> the
>> hype here. What was I thinking?
>
>
> Stop reading the big bike propaganda while you're at it.
>
>> Again, JD, there are others out there who - while not as "hardcore" as
>> you
>> think you are - have biking experience and friends with like experiences.
>
>
> That's the kicker here, pal. Nobody here knows you and several here do
> know me and have ridden with me. You have zero credibility.
>
>> The point you seem to miss is that you thinking it is illogical does not
>> make it incorrect. Respecting others' opinions is a sign of maturity that
>> you direly lack.
>
>
> I don't respect regurgitated propaganda in any realm. You should have
> ended your post with more name calling. It would have lent much more
> to your idea of "maturity".
>

Blah.

Blah.

Blah.

[Bill Sornson]

cc wrote:
> Blah.
>
> Blah.
>
> Blah.

Snip.

Snip.

Snip.

[[email protected]]

Corvus Corvax wrote:
> czb wrote:
> > a rider with a worry about spending $1500 and
> > not sure of what to buy is an inexperienced rider
>
> A rider looking to spend $1500 is somebody who is ready to become an
> experienced rider. Or an asshole. The asshole won't take good advice
> anyway.

I dunno. Before I ever set a wheel on dirt, I asked my brother what it
would take. He asked how much I was willing to spend, and what my
goals were. I told him, and he told me *something* along the lines of
what has been dished out here by JD (a little less extreeeem, tho.)
After the dust had settled, I got ahold of a year-old Marin Mt. Vision
frame, a 100mm Z-3 coil fork, a useable pre-built wheelset that he
trued and tensioned, and some used parts out of his parts box. All
told, I spent about $600 out-of-pocket, and if I'd have purchased the
parts new that he gave me for free, I'd have spent about double that.

Not boutique, but not a bad bike either. Durable, with a mix of XT and
LX, Avid disks - sort of a Frankenbike all around. It might be a
little heavy, but it does a decent job of FS MTBing.

I don't think I'm an asshole, nor am I all that experienced, but I know
better than to buy some $300 FS bike from Costco, and that if you want
quality, you have to pay for it. That goes for just about anything you
buy.

E.P.

[Corvus Corvax]

wrote:
> I got ahold of a year-old Marin Mt. Vision
> frame, a 100mm Z-3 coil fork, a useable pre-built wheelset that he
> trued and tensioned, and some used parts out of his parts box. All
> told, I spent about $600 out-of-pocket, and if I'd have purchased the
> parts new that he gave me for free, I'd have spent about double that.
>
> Not boutique, but not a bad bike either.

Let's see. I'm not sure what year your frame is, but a 2003 Marin Mt.
Vision purchased new was around a $2300 bike:

http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/2003_full_suspension/product_121290.shtml

I think even the most ideological rant on this topic usually includes
the words "...or go used". Sounds like you got a great deal.

I think the issue here is the hype-driven silliness of deciding "I want
a full suspension" for no particular reason other than they look kewl,
then trying to cheap out on the bike and getting a piece of crap, when
the same amount of money could have bought a superb hardtail. I went
through a similar process a few years ago, initially thinking a full
suspension would be a good idea. Once I'd done my research, I ended up
with a hardtail. I still ride it. If I had $5K to spend on a
replacement, I would probably go with a custom hardtail, but that's
just me.

CC

[Shaun aRe]

"JD" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> cc wrote:
> > "small change" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Doug Jordan wrote:
> > >> What is a good, reliable, durable full sus bike for around $1500? It
> > >> must have decent components.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks
> > >
> > > there isn't one. You should either look at a really nice hard tail,
go
> > > used, or up your budget.
>
>
> True, save and go boutique (just for you, Rimmer).

LMFAO! Thanks Jock - I knew you cared ',;~}~

> > I disagree. SJs are good bikes in that price range.
>
>
> You disagree because you don't know what you arte talking about. The
> OP stated "good, reliable, durable" as key points. That's not possible
> for around $1500.

Oh.


Shaun aRe

[[email protected]]

Corvus Corvax wrote:
> wrote:
> > I got ahold of a year-old Marin Mt. Vision
> > frame, a 100mm Z-3 coil fork, a useable pre-built wheelset that he
> > trued and tensioned, and some used parts out of his parts box. All
> > told, I spent about $600 out-of-pocket, and if I'd have purchased the
> > parts new that he gave me for free, I'd have spent about double that.
> >
> > Not boutique, but not a bad bike either.
>
> Let's see. I'm not sure what year your frame is, but a 2003 Marin Mt.
> Vision purchased new was around a $2300 bike:

You are correct - it's a 2003.

> I think even the most ideological rant on this topic usually includes
> the words "...or go used". Sounds like you got a great deal.

I think I did. It had a small amount of dirt on it, and no marks
anywhere - almost like it was never actually ridden anywhere remotely
up to the frame's capabilities. $330.

The fork was leaking oil - $50 for the fork, and the seals were a spare
pair my brother had in his parts box.

The rest of my out-of-pocket was for a wheelset and tires.

> I think the issue here is the hype-driven silliness of deciding "I want
> a full suspension" for no particular reason other than they look kewl,
> then trying to cheap out on the bike and getting a piece of crap, when
> the same amount of money could have bought a superb hardtail. I went
> through a similar process a few years ago, initially thinking a full
> suspension would be a good idea. Once I'd done my research, I ended up
> with a hardtail. I still ride it. If I had $5K to spend on a
> replacement, I would probably go with a custom hardtail, but that's
> just me.

I rode my brother's rigid MTB for a while, and then his hardtail. At
40 years old, "kewl" had nothing to do with my desire for suspension,
let me tell you! :)

I loved the way I could throw around his Ti hardtail, but I knew where
I was headed.

You can get a decent, non-boutique FS bike if you're willing to do the
legwork involved. Saying it's not possible is just plain untrue.

Ooops, I guess that makes me an asshole now, huh? :)

E.P.

[Corvus Corvax]

wrote:
>
> Ooops, I guess that makes me an asshole now, huh?

Totally.

CC

[Jimbo(san)]

< JDwrote:
That's the kicker here, pal. Nobody here knows you and several here
do
know me and have ridden with me. You have zero credibility.>

Who are you? ;-P

< You should have ended your post with more name calling. It would
have lent much more to your idea of "maturity".>

you.... you.... FREAK!!!

I would have to say if you have to buy F/S buy used... Ebay works well
if you are careful.
I have sold and currently am seling and it sucks to have to sell low...
I keep telling myself at least someone is using it...

Personally I would reccomend getting a hardtail...
Just ends up being a better equipped, lighter bike...


LOL... although I did get called retro on a ride a while back for
riding my hardtail :-P


--
Jimbo(san)

[JD]

Jimbo (san) wrote:
> LOL... although I did get called retro on a ride a while back for
> riding my hardtail


The person who called you that must have been riding some kind of
hypecycle.

JD