On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:55:11 -0800, (Tom Keats) wrote:

In article ,
RonSonic writes:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:45:12 -0800, LioNiNoiL_a t_Y a h 0 0_d 0 t_c 0 m
wrote:

Learning toward one or the other for buying a new dept store bicycle.

Buy a much better used bike for the same amount of money, out of the
local newpaper ads.

A couple months ago I bought a Haro MTB for $30 at a flea market. Rusted but
hardly riden. Some clean up and lubrication and it runs great.

Good score.

You won't beat
that deal at a department store.

I've noticed most $100-$200 department store bikes
have hi-tens steel frames. Ugh. What's worse is
the poor-grade steel componentry (usually painted
black,) where alu-alloy would be, on a 'good' bike.
Like handlebars & stems welded together into one
piece. And in the course of my scavenger hunts,
I've noticed more than a few discards where the
welded joins had dramatically failed. Department
store bikes get thrown away a lot.

They've gotten better, or at least the screws don't strip as bad as they used
to. Still I considered the time scouting pawn shops and flea markets to avoid
buying a department store bike worthwhile. If I hadn't landed that, I would've
gone back to the Trek that one pawn shop had at $125.

Ron

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:07:28 -0700, wrote:



wrote:
In any case, as I understand it, the only real value of
cleats is for extraordinary climbs and perhaps very brief
sprints, where the extra maximum effort made possible by
using both legs at once helps. Otherwise, your heart and
lungs fail you before your legs do.

Perhaps someone will explain other advantages. There must be
some, since most riders use cleats.


Carl, didn't we explain, why those of us who use clipless, like them
and why, a long time ago?
I seem to remember telling you why I liked them. I know this topic has
been covered, more than once.

Why don't you get a cheap set and try them out.


Life is Good!
Jeff

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:21:44 -0600, "Mike Kruger"
wrote:

A Muzi left his web site link, and I wandered over to his
photo of the day.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/daily.html

It's quite the winter cycling photo!

(because this may not be the picture at some later point, I
will describe it: an upside-down iron is substituted for the
saddle. The iron is connected to an auto battery, which is
where the rack trunk would be on my bike.)


Dear Mike,

I look forward to the debate about whether a generator would
be more practical than the battery, as well as the obvious
questions about LED versus halogen irons, and the perennial
argument about whether a smaller iron should be used to heat
just the ischial tuberosities or a larger iron should
diffuse its steamy warmth over a broader area.

Carl Fogel

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:07:28 -0700, wrote:

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:01:07 GMT, Mark Janeba
wrote:

wrote:
In any case, as I understand it, the only real value of
cleats is for extraordinary climbs and perhaps very brief
sprints, where the extra maximum effort made possible by
using both legs at once helps. Otherwise, your heart and
lungs fail you before your legs do.

Perhaps someone will explain other advantages. There must be
some, since most riders use cleats.

Hmmm... maybe to keep your feet properly positioned on the pedals at
high rpm without any effort or concentration required?

Mark Janeba, who doesn't ride w/o cleats.

Dear Mark,

Hmmm . . . at what rpm do the feet tend to fly off?

Is the idea something like floating valves, where the cam
slaps the valve up so rapidly against a feeble spring that
the valve floats instead of coming down and closing?

Something like that, sort of. If you're going to avoid making the down-going
foot push the other up then you'll either need to make very precise circles with
your feet or strap them in and make larger and less precise circles. It's easier
to make those circles at low speed.

Mostly, I just like being clipped. Same feeling as getting strapped into a car.
"Now we're connected, now we're ready." Besides, I've never been able to jump a
bike worth a damn without being strapped.

Carl Fogel, who may mash too slowly to notice

Try it, you'll like it.

Ron

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:10:47 -0600, Jeff Starr
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:07:28 -0700, wrote:



wrote:
In any case, as I understand it, the only real value of
cleats is for extraordinary climbs and perhaps very brief
sprints, where the extra maximum effort made possible by
using both legs at once helps. Otherwise, your heart and
lungs fail you before your legs do.

Perhaps someone will explain other advantages. There must be
some, since most riders use cleats.


Carl, didn't we explain, why those of us who use clipless, like them
and why, a long time ago?
I seem to remember telling you why I liked them. I know this topic has
been covered, more than once.

Why don't you get a cheap set and try them out.


Life is Good!
Jeff


Dear Jeff,

You may have explained what you like about them, but I don't
recall the thread--and your present explanation is somewhat
vague.

Why do you like them?

Curiously,

Carl Fogel

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:21:44 -0600, "Mike Kruger"
wrote:
A Muzi left his web site link, and I wandered over to his
photo of the day.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/daily.html
It's quite the winter cycling photo!
(because this may not be the picture at some later point, I
will describe it: an upside-down iron is substituted for the
saddle. The iron is connected to an auto battery, which is
where the rack trunk would be on my bike.)


wrote:
I look forward to the debate about whether a generator would
be more practical than the battery, as well as the obvious
questions about LED versus halogen irons, and the perennial
argument about whether a smaller iron should be used to heat
just the ischial tuberosities or a larger iron should
diffuse its steamy warmth over a broader area.

That photo waas from one of our customers in Israel - with
way too much time on his hands. It's still up until tomorrow
afternoon.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:21:44 -0600,
1104469329.d6779435e1f34b7cbf420aaa488b9023@teran ews,
"Mike Kruger" wrote:

A Muzi left his web site link, and I wandered over to his
photo of the day.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/daily.html

It's quite the winter cycling photo!

(because this may not be the picture at some later point, I
will describe it: an upside-down iron is substituted for the
saddle. The iron is connected to an auto battery, which is
where the rack trunk would be on my bike.)

I trust it still has a "wool" setting for the retrogroovies.
--
zk

Mark Janeba Wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:01:07 GMT, Mark Janeba wrote:
wrote:

In any case, as I understand it, the only real value of
cleats is for extraordinary climbs and perhaps very brief
sprints, where the extra maximum effort made possible by
using both legs at once helps. Otherwise, your heart and
lungs fail you before your legs do.

Perhaps someone will explain other advantages. There must be
some, since most riders use cleats.

Hmmm... maybe to keep your feet properly positioned on the pedals at
high rpm without any effort or concentration required?
Hmmm . . . at what rpm do the feet tend to fly off?

Is the idea something like floating valves, where the cam
slaps the valve up so rapidly against a feeble spring that
the valve floats instead of coming down and closing?

Carl Fogel, who may mash too slowly to notice

Could be, I haven't ridden w/o clips and straps and/or clipless pedals
for about 30 years. I typically spin 80-90 rpm.

Mark Janeba

I guess it's too soon to begin practicing taps in preparation for toe
clips.


--
meb

In article ,
Mark Hickey writes:
(Tom Keats) wrote:

Knobbies do make a pleasing 'buzz' on asphalt.

"Pleasing"? In the same way that rough pavement can be "pleasing" I
guess...

Well, it's really not the same at all. It's a steady, smooth
biofeedback thing. You're cruisin' along and you hear that
steady, uninterrupted buzz going, and you just know you've got
your mojo working.

Sure, they'll
slow ya down and (heaven forbid) allow other riders to pass ya
sometimes. But if you don't care, it doesn't matter. And there
may be some shortcut scenarios where knobbies come in handy.
Even in urban environs.

While knobbies are nice when/if you find yourself navigating a section
of loose dirt/gravel, they're a serious disadvantage everywhere else.
To me the biggest drawback is the sketchy handling that most knobbies
produce in a corner. I've had some knobbies that were "exciting" in
any real paved cornering situation - they'd squirm and slip - not a
lot of fun. Plus, they wear out VERY fast on the road.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not advocating consistently using
knobbies on paved streets & roads. I much prefer slicks
for my kind of riding, myself. But many if not most of the
bikes I see around town are stock, right-off-the-display-floor
MTB sales units, with the same placeholder tires, pedals and
saddles they were displayed with. And their riders seem to get
by okay with them, even though they are mostly disadvantageous.

I guess a lot of folks just want a ready-to-ride bike,
without having to phutz around with a bunch of stuff.
I get the impression the OP might be of that mindset.
But he can read this whole discussion and make of it
what he will.


cheers, & Happy New Year,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

In article ,
(Tom Keats) wrote:

In article ,
Ryan Cousineau writes:

But slicks are soo much nicer to ride on! And better cornering grip. And
better wet-pavement grip.

I agree so much, I opt for slicks, myself. All I'm saying is
knobbies aren't totally unusable on pavement.

Yes, but I think that, as you would agree, that a great number of urban
cyclists rolling around on knobby tires would be best served by swapping
them for slicks.

I have a set of Tioga City Slickers, which are
pretty cheap, available at MEC, and they even have gumwalls to satisfy
the purists. The tread is a minimalist road pattern.

I finally parted ways with my Cheng Shins, after 8-10K kilometers.
I went looking for a new pair of the same, but ended up instead
with IRC Metros, from The Bike Doctor. $11.69 each. They at least
look similar to the Cheng Shins.

Mm. Good tire recommendation.

About
the only urban surface a knobby can traverse that a slick cannot is a
muddy slope long enough that you can't just power through by
accelerating before you hit the hill. That's a pretty rare thing, even
when making shortcuts.

IME knobbies traverse wet, grassy fields better than slicks,
which can go kind of sidewindery. But there might be the
matter of divots.

Better, but by no means impossible. I have a funny story about this: I
have 700C-23mm tires on my commuter, and the first and last part of my
commute is across my lawn. The homeward leg ends with me riding up a 2'
high steep grass slope from the sidewalk to the lawn. This section
requires some discretion, as a careless attempt to ride up it at a
less-than-square angle and with power to the pedals saw the bike slide
out from under me. On the upside, when it's wet enough for that to be an
issue, the ground is also soft enough to do this without harm to cyclist
or mount.

Not that I'm recommending this,
--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.