Cyclists triggering red light cameras
On 4/13/2019 10:28 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 12:44:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/12/2019 11:04 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:51:19 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote: On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote: There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs. Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution. Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars. But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can selectively disregard the law? If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I certainly know people that believe that is justified. Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid theft by employees. We're talking traffic laws and not employee theft. No, we are talking about the fact that laws are made prevent some evil deed from happening. If one argues that some law does not have to be obeyed, or that everyone ignores it, than what is the reason that the law was exacted? Are laws to be passed so that one can disobey them at one's convenience? John, you're sounding so naive! Hardly. Perhaps a bit optimistic that laws are actually passed to prevent crimes or to make society safer. Perhaps. But your theory that one doesn't have to obey laws that one considers wrong, incomplete, or otherwise, is simply stupid. Oh? Is that true of ALL laws? If so, on what basis? Just the following paragraph? That is, [in Los Angeles County] some 40% of the collisions, for which fault could be determined, the motor vehicle was at fault and in some 60% the bicycle was at fault. The bulk of the fault where motor vehicles were found to be at fault was failure to yield the right of way and the overwhelming fault of the bicycles was riding the wrong way - against traffic. Well to begin: We certainly should take those bicycles and those motor vehicles aside, line them up in a parking lot and give them a stern lecture! (Related: I once saw the goofy kid down the street yelling at a lawnmower that wouldn't start. Darned thing didn't seem to listen.) But more to the point: Yes, I'm sure most traffic crashes are caused in part by someone disobeying a law. But at the same time, I'm even more sure that only a tiny percentage of illegal traffic moves cause a crash, or even require anyone to take action to avoid a crash. As I've said, half the motorists passing the stop sign in front of my house do not do a legal stop. In my nearly 40 years living here, it has never caused a crash, and I doubt it's caused a close call. In practice (and like it or not) nobody expects perfect obedience of many traffic laws. Cops almost always allow at least a couple miles per hour over the speed limit. If sunset is 8 PM and someone turns their headlights on at 8:05, they won't be ticketed. Lots of drivers omit signalling before making turns, and even fewer do it before changing lanes. These offenses happen even in sight of police, with no punishment. So in many cases, one does not "have to" obey those laws exactly as written. People prove that daily, with impunity. And in some cases, actually obeying them would be detrimental. If every motorist did a perfect stop at the stop sign I can see now, there would actually be a little more noise, a little more gas consumption, a little more air pollution, and no actual safety benefit - because there's never been a real safety detriment to what they do. I'm picturing an old guy sitting in a rocking chair on his farmhouse porch, banging his cane on the floor and saying "Those whippersnappers ought to all be in jail for breaking the traffic laws!" But the old guy would never want to pay the taxes to maintain the police state that would require. And the old guy actually wouldn't stop his jalopy when he drove it to the end of his driveway, before entering the quiet country road. He's say "Hell, I can see there's nobody coming. That's different." -- - Frank Krygowski |
Cyclists triggering red light cameras
On 4/13/2019 9:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 12:10:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/12/2019 6:05 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:06:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/12/2019 2:21 AM, AK wrote: I think you are forgetting some things. If a cyclist blows thru a red light and is struck by a car, don't you think the driver will be at least a tad bit traumatized? Give me a break. "Traumatized" is used mostly as a "let my client off the hook" excuse for guilty motorists. There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs. The troll alert is beginning to sound... And while I am at it.... Cyclists should ride close to the curb while in bike lanes. Bull**** alert plus flashing troll alert! (Or is it just flaming, inexcusable ignorance?) Whenever there is a contest between car and bike, the outcome is ALWAYS the same. The cyclist loses. It don't matter if you had the right of way, etc. Fine. Whether you, Andy, are a cyclist or a motorist, just stay off the roads. Your attitudes demonstrate critical ignorance and incompetence. I see Frank. You are arguing that when a bicycle/motor vehicle crash occurs that the bicycle does not come off worse? No, I'm saying that Andy's post was generally anti-cyclist, and the final "it doesn't matter" sounds like he's hinting that cyclists should abandon their right of way. That's bull****. Was it "anti-cyclist" or simply the reality that when a motor vehicle and a bicycle collide that invariably the bicycle and rider suffer injuries while the motor vehicle gets, perhaps, a dent in the fender. When that's said to enforce "Bicyclists should ride in the gutter" as Andy did, then yes, it is then anti-cyclist. -- - Frank Krygowski |
Cyclists triggering red light cameras
On 4/15/2019 9:04 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 13:54:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/13/2019 10:28 PM, John B. wrote: On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 12:44:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/12/2019 11:04 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:51:19 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote: On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote: There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs. Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution. Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars. But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can selectively disregard the law? If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I certainly know people that believe that is justified. Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid theft by employees. We're talking traffic laws and not employee theft. No, we are talking about the fact that laws are made prevent some evil deed from happening. If one argues that some law does not have to be obeyed, or that everyone ignores it, than what is the reason that the law was exacted? Are laws to be passed so that one can disobey them at one's convenience? John, you're sounding so naive! Hardly. Perhaps a bit optimistic that laws are actually passed to prevent crimes or to make society safer. Perhaps. But your theory that one doesn't have to obey laws that one considers wrong, incomplete, or otherwise, is simply stupid. Oh? Is that true of ALL laws? If so, on what basis? Just the following paragraph? That is, [in Los Angeles County] some 40% of the collisions, for which fault could be determined, the motor vehicle was at fault and in some 60% the bicycle was at fault. The bulk of the fault where motor vehicles were found to be at fault was failure to yield the right of way and the overwhelming fault of the bicycles was riding the wrong way - against traffic. Well to begin: We certainly should take those bicycles and those motor vehicles aside, line them up in a parking lot and give them a stern lecture! (Related: I once saw the goofy kid down the street yelling at a lawnmower that wouldn't start. Darned thing didn't seem to listen.) But more to the point: Yes, I'm sure most traffic crashes are caused in part by someone disobeying a law. But at the same time, I'm even more sure that only a tiny percentage of illegal traffic moves cause a crash, or even require anyone to take action to avoid a crash. As I've said, half the motorists passing the stop sign in front of my house do not do a legal stop. In my nearly 40 years living here, it has never caused a crash, and I doubt it's caused a close call. In practice (and like it or not) nobody expects perfect obedience of many traffic laws. Cops almost always allow at least a couple miles per hour over the speed limit. If sunset is 8 PM and someone turns their headlights on at 8:05, they won't be ticketed. Lots of drivers omit signalling before making turns, and even fewer do it before changing lanes. These offenses happen even in sight of police, with no punishment. So in many cases, one does not "have to" obey those laws exactly as written. People prove that daily, with impunity. And in some cases, actually obeying them would be detrimental. If every motorist did a perfect stop at the stop sign I can see now, there would actually be a little more noise, a little more gas consumption, a little more air pollution, and no actual safety benefit - because there's never been a real safety detriment to what they do. I'm picturing an old guy sitting in a rocking chair on his farmhouse porch, banging his cane on the floor and saying "Those whippersnappers ought to all be in jail for breaking the traffic laws!" But the old guy would never want to pay the taxes to maintain the police state that would require. And the old guy actually wouldn't stop his jalopy when he drove it to the end of his driveway, before entering the quiet country road. He's say "Hell, I can see there's nobody coming. That's different." Frank, you seem to be denying what appears to be, based on the CHP study, the fact that more than half of the bicycle - motor vehicle crashes were caused by the bicycle and only about 40% were caused by the motor vehicle. In recent years bicycle deaths in the U.S. have averaged 782 deaths per year (2013 - 2017) if 60% were caused by the cyclists then that is 459 deaths due to the malfeasance of the cyclists themselves and only 312 due to motor vehicles. Would saving 459 individuals from dying equate with someone sitting on the front porch banging their cane on the floor? Or to put it another way, has wearing a helmet and having blindly bright lights on the bicycle saved as many lives as simply obeying the existing laws? If willfully disobeying existing laws (my buddy is the sheriff) is O.K. than why all the hoop ala about bicycle deaths, why bother with the subject at all. After all shooting oneself in the foot is hardly a subject for boasting. I don't know. I suspect the issue of fidelity to The Law is larger and more complex than it first appears. The Supremes upheld order #9066 in the various related cases /Korematsu/ , /Hirabayashi/ and /Yasui/ (a man I knew personally). Well argued /coram nobis/ petitions were rejected. So that's where we are now. Legally owned firearms are a niggling portion of firearms involved in crime. Yet the bulk of charges for felon in possession or use of a stolen firearm and related wrondoing are dropped in the first round of negotiations, often swapped for a misdemeanor charge. Cue the chorus of 'more gun laws' as if that would help. Dallas' newly elected DA says prosecuting crime doesn't always draw his interest and besides you just can't expect law-abiding behavior from Those People: https://www.texasobserver.org/dallas...incarceration/ I could go on but The Law in practice is neither logically consistent with itself nor sensible to the citizenry in enough areas as to obviate any simple aphorism. I suspect that the egregious examples are not different from traffic law except by degree, that is, "as far right as practicable" may be interpreted differently at different times by different people in different situations. [Glad I ride in jurisdictions where punishments do not include caning]. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
Cyclists triggering red light cameras
On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 04:02:20 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: My buddy bicycling buddy whilst bicycling one night slowed way down at a red light, looked and saw no other vehicles moving on either road and then proceeded through the red light. Unfortunately for him there was a "letter of the Law police officer sitting in a cruiser and that officer gave my buddy a ticket. Was the cruiser hiding beind a billboard? Camouflaged as a parked and empty private car? -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net |
Cyclists triggering red light cameras
Am 13.04.2019 um 01:29 schrieb John B.:
But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can selectively disregard the law? In Germany, we distinguish between "law" and "regulations". Philosophiocally speaking, the law is what ensures a peaceful society, regulation is what ensures a smooth-running society. For a peaceful society, you need "protection of life", "protection of property" and "no incitement of civil unrest". Technically speaking, in Germany law is made in Parliament by primary legislation, regulations are made by administration as secondary legislation. As you do not envisage a Parliament to decide "At the junction of 47th ave and 36th road, there shall be an all-way stop", this law is slightly less important than "thou shalt not desire thy neighbor's property". Traffic law is mostly on "regulation" level, except massively dangerous stuff like drink-driving or illegal car-racing in city centers. You can be jailed for breaking the law (e.g. theft), not for regulations (e.g. jaywalking). |
Cyclists triggering red light cameras
On 4/15/2019 1:21 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 20:14:39 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 4/15/2019 9:04 AM, John B. wrote: On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 13:54:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/13/2019 10:28 PM, John B. wrote: On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 12:44:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/12/2019 11:04 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:51:19 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote: On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote: There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs. Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution. Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars. But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can selectively disregard the law? If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I certainly know people that believe that is justified. Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid theft by employees. We're talking traffic laws and not employee theft. No, we are talking about the fact that laws are made prevent some evil deed from happening. If one argues that some law does not have to be obeyed, or that everyone ignores it, than what is the reason that the law was exacted? Are laws to be passed so that one can disobey them at one's convenience? John, you're sounding so naive! Hardly. Perhaps a bit optimistic that laws are actually passed to prevent crimes or to make society safer. Perhaps. But your theory that one doesn't have to obey laws that one considers wrong, incomplete, or otherwise, is simply stupid. Oh? Is that true of ALL laws? If so, on what basis? Just the following paragraph? That is, [in Los Angeles County] some 40% of the collisions, for which fault could be determined, the motor vehicle was at fault and in some 60% the bicycle was at fault. The bulk of the fault where motor vehicles were found to be at fault was failure to yield the right of way and the overwhelming fault of the bicycles was riding the wrong way - against traffic. Well to begin: We certainly should take those bicycles and those motor vehicles aside, line them up in a parking lot and give them a stern lecture! (Related: I once saw the goofy kid down the street yelling at a lawnmower that wouldn't start. Darned thing didn't seem to listen.) But more to the point: Yes, I'm sure most traffic crashes are caused in part by someone disobeying a law. But at the same time, I'm even more sure that only a tiny percentage of illegal traffic moves cause a crash, or even require anyone to take action to avoid a crash. As I've said, half the motorists passing the stop sign in front of my house do not do a legal stop. In my nearly 40 years living here, it has never caused a crash, and I doubt it's caused a close call. In practice (and like it or not) nobody expects perfect obedience of many traffic laws. Cops almost always allow at least a couple miles per hour over the speed limit. If sunset is 8 PM and someone turns their headlights on at 8:05, they won't be ticketed. Lots of drivers omit signalling before making turns, and even fewer do it before changing lanes. These offenses happen even in sight of police, with no punishment. So in many cases, one does not "have to" obey those laws exactly as written. People prove that daily, with impunity. And in some cases, actually obeying them would be detrimental. If every motorist did a perfect stop at the stop sign I can see now, there would actually be a little more noise, a little more gas consumption, a little more air pollution, and no actual safety benefit - because there's never been a real safety detriment to what they do. I'm picturing an old guy sitting in a rocking chair on his farmhouse porch, banging his cane on the floor and saying "Those whippersnappers ought to all be in jail for breaking the traffic laws!" But the old guy would never want to pay the taxes to maintain the police state that would require. And the old guy actually wouldn't stop his jalopy when he drove it to the end of his driveway, before entering the quiet country road. He's say "Hell, I can see there's nobody coming. That's different." Frank, you seem to be denying what appears to be, based on the CHP study, the fact that more than half of the bicycle - motor vehicle crashes were caused by the bicycle and only about 40% were caused by the motor vehicle. In recent years bicycle deaths in the U.S. have averaged 782 deaths per year (2013 - 2017) if 60% were caused by the cyclists then that is 459 deaths due to the malfeasance of the cyclists themselves and only 312 due to motor vehicles. Would saving 459 individuals from dying equate with someone sitting on the front porch banging their cane on the floor? Or to put it another way, has wearing a helmet and having blindly bright lights on the bicycle saved as many lives as simply obeying the existing laws? If willfully disobeying existing laws (my buddy is the sheriff) is O.K. than why all the hoop ala about bicycle deaths, why bother with the subject at all. After all shooting oneself in the foot is hardly a subject for boasting. I don't know. I suspect the issue of fidelity to The Law is larger and more complex than it first appears. Certainly it is and there are many laws that are no longer valid either because the problem has gone away (selling guns to Indians) or no longer considered a crime (Massachusetts colonial law providing a penalty for not attending Church on Sunday). In fact some years ago the State of Maine had a project in the Legislature to review every State Law to determine which were valid "today" and revoke those that were no longer applicable. The Supremes upheld order #9066 in the various related cases /Korematsu/ , /Hirabayashi/ and /Yasui/ (a man I knew personally). Well argued /coram nobis/ petitions were rejected. So that's where we are now. Was that concerning the constitutionality of Executive Order 9066, which ordered Japanese Americans into internment camps during World War II regardless of their citizenship ? If so it was decided in 1944, if the Wiki is correct. Legally owned firearms are a niggling portion of firearms involved in crime. Yet the bulk of charges for felon in possession or use of a stolen firearm and related wrondoing are dropped in the first round of negotiations, often swapped for a misdemeanor charge. Cue the chorus of 'more gun laws' as if that would help. Someone or another wrote, "We cannot penalize all Moslem for terrorism because such a tiny minority of Moslems are terrorists but we can penalize all Gun Owners for mass shootings although only a tiny minority are mass murderers. Dallas' newly elected DA says prosecuting crime doesn't always draw his interest and besides you just can't expect law-abiding behavior from Those People: https://www.texasobserver.org/dallas...incarceration/ I suspect that the above was in actuality an attempt to reduce the cost of the Texas, or the Dallas, prison system and had nothing to do with enforcing the law. Legalize drugs, abolish the requirement for bail and so on. I suspect that Texas law provides for being " release on your own recognizance". I could go on but The Law in practice is neither logically consistent with itself nor sensible to the citizenry in enough areas as to obviate any simple aphorism. I suggest that the law is logical in the specific cases where the judgment is made. In the case of the "Executive Order 9066" judgment you mention above, in 1942 when the order was issued the U.S. was truly afraid of the possibility of an attack on the N. American continent, and in fact attacks did occur. There was evidence of Japan spies in Hawaii. Mexico and probably other countries, according to a book written by an individual who was a career Navel Intelligence Officer. The fact that Navel Intelligence was not aware of any U.S. citizens of Japanese origin or decent in the U.S. was not proof none were there. I was very small at the time but I do remember that people, at least in my home town talked about a Japanese invasion of California, and less face reality, the Japanese... and the Italian... the Irish... and the Poles... and just about everyone else with a "funny name" was thought of as sort of 2nd class citizen. My father's youngest sister married a bloke named "Le Blanc" and my grandmother didn't talk to here own daughter for a considerable number of years. After all, the Japanese did "attack" the N. American continent. A Japanese Submarine shelled Ellwood Oil Field on 23 Feb 1942, on June 21, 1942 a Japanese submarine shelled Ft. Fort Stevens, in September 1942 a Japanese airplane, launched from a submarine bombed Brookings, Oregon, the bombs actually fell on a nearby wooded area. 1944, the Japanese military constructed and launched over 9,000 high-altitude balloons, each loaded with nearly 50 pounds of anti-personnel and incendiary explosives. From 1944 to 1945, balloon bombs were spotted in more than 15 states, some as far east as Michigan and Iowa. A pregnant woman and five children were the only kill, in an explosion after coming across one of the downed balloons. I'm going on and on but given the sentiment that existed in the U.S., at the time, the Japanese Interment made perfect sense to, probably, the bulk of the American People. I suspect that the egregious examples are not different from traffic law except by degree, that is, "as far right as practicable" may be interpreted differently at different times by different people in different situations. [Glad I ride in jurisdictions where punishments do not include caning]. -- cheers, John B. All that's true but not to the point. Once our foundation of individual liberty becomes subsumed by 'group rights' (leading directly to group punishment) you get a natural born American citizen, newly admitted to the Oregon bar, in solitary confinement in the Multnomah county jail for the duration. I can't square that with the Constitution as written. Maybe a simpler law like 'tax the rich' ? What could go wrong? http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/JOELOUIS.JPG Law is messy because society is messy and simple rules turn out not to be so simple /in extremis/ . -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
Cyclists triggering red light cameras
On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 16:09:59 -0000 (UTC), Doc O'Leary
wrote: For your reference, records indicate that John B. wrote: No, nor does forgetting to take a company pencil out of your pocket when you go home at night. But, on the other hand https://www.incorp.com/help-center/b...nd-fraud-part1 has it that "Estimates range from $20 billion to $50 billion, making it one of the most costly and widespread challenges faced in today's business world." My point remains that an obsession with petty criminals is misguided. Nobody should pat themselves on the back for honking at a cyclist that safely rolls a STOP sign (or a car doing the same, for that matter), just like they shouldn’t act like stopping Patty the pencil thief is a major bust. You use the word "obsession" as though it meant "obsession with only major criminals" . So O.K.. we will be obsessed with only major criminals... who decides who and what is major. The news has it that Carlos Ghosn is charged with at least $8.8 million in fraud. Can we say that anything less is inconsequential? Or do we use the term "everyone knows" to decide what to condemn? Someone who "rolls a stop" is committing a minor sin, unless it doesn't turn out to have been safe and someone is badly injured or dies as a result. Please note that it isn't usually determined to have been unsafe un till after the accident happens. Companies lose money in all sorts of ways. Proper triage will identify them and assign an objective priority. It’s always interesting how *executive* theft is seldom addressed as the huge issue it is. Nor is apparently the HR process ever called into question when it comes to hiring all these terribly criminal employees. I’m not sure why any of this belongs in the tech group, but most traffic control technologies barely account for motorcycles, never mind bicycles. So, again, for cycling, let’s focus on the absolutely minimal ridership there is (in the US, at least), the absolutely minimal damage that they can do to others, and the inequity of laws when it comes to the rules of the road. Anyone making a serious fuss about scofflaw cyclists is an idiot. I see. Given that although the California Highway Patrol in their investigation of bicycle-motor vehicle collisions in L.A. County determined that some 60% were caused by the bicycle no serious fuss should be made? Simply ignore the cause of more then half of all bicycle (in L.A.) collisions over a period of a year were the fault of the bicycle? -- cheers, John B. |
Cyclists triggering red light cameras
On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 13:54:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 4/13/2019 10:28 PM, John B. wrote: On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 12:44:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/12/2019 11:04 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:51:19 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote: On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote: There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs. Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution. Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars. But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can selectively disregard the law? If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I certainly know people that believe that is justified. Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid theft by employees. We're talking traffic laws and not employee theft. No, we are talking about the fact that laws are made prevent some evil deed from happening. If one argues that some law does not have to be obeyed, or that everyone ignores it, than what is the reason that the law was exacted? Are laws to be passed so that one can disobey them at one's convenience? John, you're sounding so naive! Hardly. Perhaps a bit optimistic that laws are actually passed to prevent crimes or to make society safer. Perhaps. But your theory that one doesn't have to obey laws that one considers wrong, incomplete, or otherwise, is simply stupid. Oh? Is that true of ALL laws? If so, on what basis? Just the following paragraph? That is, [in Los Angeles County] some 40% of the collisions, for which fault could be determined, the motor vehicle was at fault and in some 60% the bicycle was at fault. The bulk of the fault where motor vehicles were found to be at fault was failure to yield the right of way and the overwhelming fault of the bicycles was riding the wrong way - against traffic. Well to begin: We certainly should take those bicycles and those motor vehicles aside, line them up in a parking lot and give them a stern lecture! (Related: I once saw the goofy kid down the street yelling at a lawnmower that wouldn't start. Darned thing didn't seem to listen.) But more to the point: Yes, I'm sure most traffic crashes are caused in part by someone disobeying a law. But at the same time, I'm even more sure that only a tiny percentage of illegal traffic moves cause a crash, or even require anyone to take action to avoid a crash. As I've said, half the motorists passing the stop sign in front of my house do not do a legal stop. In my nearly 40 years living here, it has never caused a crash, and I doubt it's caused a close call. In practice (and like it or not) nobody expects perfect obedience of many traffic laws. Cops almost always allow at least a couple miles per hour over the speed limit. If sunset is 8 PM and someone turns their headlights on at 8:05, they won't be ticketed. Lots of drivers omit signalling before making turns, and even fewer do it before changing lanes. These offenses happen even in sight of police, with no punishment. So in many cases, one does not "have to" obey those laws exactly as written. People prove that daily, with impunity. And in some cases, actually obeying them would be detrimental. If every motorist did a perfect stop at the stop sign I can see now, there would actually be a little more noise, a little more gas consumption, a little more air pollution, and no actual safety benefit - because there's never been a real safety detriment to what they do. I'm picturing an old guy sitting in a rocking chair on his farmhouse porch, banging his cane on the floor and saying "Those whippersnappers ought to all be in jail for breaking the traffic laws!" But the old guy would never want to pay the taxes to maintain the police state that would require. And the old guy actually wouldn't stop his jalopy when he drove it to the end of his driveway, before entering the quiet country road. He's say "Hell, I can see there's nobody coming. That's different." Frank, you seem to be denying what appears to be, based on the CHP study, the fact that more than half of the bicycle - motor vehicle crashes were caused by the bicycle and only about 40% were caused by the motor vehicle. In recent years bicycle deaths in the U.S. have averaged 782 deaths per year (2013 - 2017) if 60% were caused by the cyclists then that is 459 deaths due to the malfeasance of the cyclists themselves and only 312 due to motor vehicles. Would saving 459 individuals from dying equate with someone sitting on the front porch banging their cane on the floor? Or to put it another way, has wearing a helmet and having blindly bright lights on the bicycle saved as many lives as simply obeying the existing laws? If willfully disobeying existing laws (my buddy is the sheriff) is O.K. than why all the hoop ala about bicycle deaths, why bother with the subject at all. After all shooting oneself in the foot is hardly a subject for boasting. -- cheers, John B. |
Cyclists triggering red light cameras
On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 13:56:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 4/13/2019 9:27 PM, John B. wrote: On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 12:10:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/12/2019 6:05 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:06:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/12/2019 2:21 AM, AK wrote: I think you are forgetting some things. If a cyclist blows thru a red light and is struck by a car, don't you think the driver will be at least a tad bit traumatized? Give me a break. "Traumatized" is used mostly as a "let my client off the hook" excuse for guilty motorists. There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs. The troll alert is beginning to sound... And while I am at it.... Cyclists should ride close to the curb while in bike lanes. Bull**** alert plus flashing troll alert! (Or is it just flaming, inexcusable ignorance?) Whenever there is a contest between car and bike, the outcome is ALWAYS the same. The cyclist loses. It don't matter if you had the right of way, etc. Fine. Whether you, Andy, are a cyclist or a motorist, just stay off the roads. Your attitudes demonstrate critical ignorance and incompetence. I see Frank. You are arguing that when a bicycle/motor vehicle crash occurs that the bicycle does not come off worse? No, I'm saying that Andy's post was generally anti-cyclist, and the final "it doesn't matter" sounds like he's hinting that cyclists should abandon their right of way. That's bull****. Was it "anti-cyclist" or simply the reality that when a motor vehicle and a bicycle collide that invariably the bicycle and rider suffer injuries while the motor vehicle gets, perhaps, a dent in the fender. When that's said to enforce "Bicyclists should ride in the gutter" as Andy did, then yes, it is then anti-cyclist. Your logic that some how we can ignore the fact that riding in the gutter, or even getting off and walking is somehow a worse fate than being hit by a car seems a bit strange. Or are you arguing that in a bicycle-motor vehicle collision the bicycle does not always receives more injuries than the motor vehicle operator? Or perhaps "it is preferably to get hit by a car rather than suffer the indignity of riding in the gutter"? -- cheers, John B. |
Cyclists triggering red light cameras
On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 20:14:39 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/15/2019 9:04 AM, John B. wrote: On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 13:54:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/13/2019 10:28 PM, John B. wrote: On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 12:44:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/12/2019 11:04 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:51:19 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote: On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote: There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs. Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution. Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars. But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can selectively disregard the law? If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I certainly know people that believe that is justified. Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid theft by employees. We're talking traffic laws and not employee theft. No, we are talking about the fact that laws are made prevent some evil deed from happening. If one argues that some law does not have to be obeyed, or that everyone ignores it, than what is the reason that the law was exacted? Are laws to be passed so that one can disobey them at one's convenience? John, you're sounding so naive! Hardly. Perhaps a bit optimistic that laws are actually passed to prevent crimes or to make society safer. Perhaps. But your theory that one doesn't have to obey laws that one considers wrong, incomplete, or otherwise, is simply stupid. Oh? Is that true of ALL laws? If so, on what basis? Just the following paragraph? That is, [in Los Angeles County] some 40% of the collisions, for which fault could be determined, the motor vehicle was at fault and in some 60% the bicycle was at fault. The bulk of the fault where motor vehicles were found to be at fault was failure to yield the right of way and the overwhelming fault of the bicycles was riding the wrong way - against traffic. Well to begin: We certainly should take those bicycles and those motor vehicles aside, line them up in a parking lot and give them a stern lecture! (Related: I once saw the goofy kid down the street yelling at a lawnmower that wouldn't start. Darned thing didn't seem to listen.) But more to the point: Yes, I'm sure most traffic crashes are caused in part by someone disobeying a law. But at the same time, I'm even more sure that only a tiny percentage of illegal traffic moves cause a crash, or even require anyone to take action to avoid a crash. As I've said, half the motorists passing the stop sign in front of my house do not do a legal stop. In my nearly 40 years living here, it has never caused a crash, and I doubt it's caused a close call. In practice (and like it or not) nobody expects perfect obedience of many traffic laws. Cops almost always allow at least a couple miles per hour over the speed limit. If sunset is 8 PM and someone turns their headlights on at 8:05, they won't be ticketed. Lots of drivers omit signalling before making turns, and even fewer do it before changing lanes. These offenses happen even in sight of police, with no punishment. So in many cases, one does not "have to" obey those laws exactly as written. People prove that daily, with impunity. And in some cases, actually obeying them would be detrimental. If every motorist did a perfect stop at the stop sign I can see now, there would actually be a little more noise, a little more gas consumption, a little more air pollution, and no actual safety benefit - because there's never been a real safety detriment to what they do. I'm picturing an old guy sitting in a rocking chair on his farmhouse porch, banging his cane on the floor and saying "Those whippersnappers ought to all be in jail for breaking the traffic laws!" But the old guy would never want to pay the taxes to maintain the police state that would require. And the old guy actually wouldn't stop his jalopy when he drove it to the end of his driveway, before entering the quiet country road. He's say "Hell, I can see there's nobody coming. That's different." Frank, you seem to be denying what appears to be, based on the CHP study, the fact that more than half of the bicycle - motor vehicle crashes were caused by the bicycle and only about 40% were caused by the motor vehicle. In recent years bicycle deaths in the U.S. have averaged 782 deaths per year (2013 - 2017) if 60% were caused by the cyclists then that is 459 deaths due to the malfeasance of the cyclists themselves and only 312 due to motor vehicles. Would saving 459 individuals from dying equate with someone sitting on the front porch banging their cane on the floor? Or to put it another way, has wearing a helmet and having blindly bright lights on the bicycle saved as many lives as simply obeying the existing laws? If willfully disobeying existing laws (my buddy is the sheriff) is O.K. than why all the hoop ala about bicycle deaths, why bother with the subject at all. After all shooting oneself in the foot is hardly a subject for boasting. I don't know. I suspect the issue of fidelity to The Law is larger and more complex than it first appears. Certainly it is and there are many laws that are no longer valid either because the problem has gone away (selling guns to Indians) or no longer considered a crime (Massachusetts colonial law providing a penalty for not attending Church on Sunday). In fact some years ago the State of Maine had a project in the Legislature to review every State Law to determine which were valid "today" and revoke those that were no longer applicable. The Supremes upheld order #9066 in the various related cases /Korematsu/ , /Hirabayashi/ and /Yasui/ (a man I knew personally). Well argued /coram nobis/ petitions were rejected. So that's where we are now. Was that concerning the constitutionality of Executive Order 9066, which ordered Japanese Americans into internment camps during World War II regardless of their citizenship ? If so it was decided in 1944, if the Wiki is correct. Legally owned firearms are a niggling portion of firearms involved in crime. Yet the bulk of charges for felon in possession or use of a stolen firearm and related wrondoing are dropped in the first round of negotiations, often swapped for a misdemeanor charge. Cue the chorus of 'more gun laws' as if that would help. Someone or another wrote, "We cannot penalize all Moslem for terrorism because such a tiny minority of Moslems are terrorists but we can penalize all Gun Owners for mass shootings although only a tiny minority are mass murderers. Dallas' newly elected DA says prosecuting crime doesn't always draw his interest and besides you just can't expect law-abiding behavior from Those People: https://www.texasobserver.org/dallas...incarceration/ I suspect that the above was in actuality an attempt to reduce the cost of the Texas, or the Dallas, prison system and had nothing to do with enforcing the law. Legalize drugs, abolish the requirement for bail and so on. I suspect that Texas law provides for being " release on your own recognizance". I could go on but The Law in practice is neither logically consistent with itself nor sensible to the citizenry in enough areas as to obviate any simple aphorism. I suggest that the law is logical in the specific cases where the judgment is made. In the case of the "Executive Order 9066" judgment you mention above, in 1942 when the order was issued the U.S. was truly afraid of the possibility of an attack on the N. American continent, and in fact attacks did occur. There was evidence of Japan spies in Hawaii. Mexico and probably other countries, according to a book written by an individual who was a career Navel Intelligence Officer. The fact that Navel Intelligence was not aware of any U.S. citizens of Japanese origin or decent in the U.S. was not proof none were there. I was very small at the time but I do remember that people, at least in my home town talked about a Japanese invasion of California, and less face reality, the Japanese... and the Italian... the Irish... and the Poles... and just about everyone else with a "funny name" was thought of as sort of 2nd class citizen. My father's youngest sister married a bloke named "Le Blanc" and my grandmother didn't talk to here own daughter for a considerable number of years. After all, the Japanese did "attack" the N. American continent. A Japanese Submarine shelled Ellwood Oil Field on 23 Feb 1942, on June 21, 1942 a Japanese submarine shelled Ft. Fort Stevens, in September 1942 a Japanese airplane, launched from a submarine bombed Brookings, Oregon, the bombs actually fell on a nearby wooded area. 1944, the Japanese military constructed and launched over 9,000 high-altitude balloons, each loaded with nearly 50 pounds of anti-personnel and incendiary explosives. From 1944 to 1945, balloon bombs were spotted in more than 15 states, some as far east as Michigan and Iowa. A pregnant woman and five children were the only kill, in an explosion after coming across one of the downed balloons. I'm going on and on but given the sentiment that existed in the U.S., at the time, the Japanese Interment made perfect sense to, probably, the bulk of the American People. I suspect that the egregious examples are not different from traffic law except by degree, that is, "as far right as practicable" may be interpreted differently at different times by different people in different situations. [Glad I ride in jurisdictions where punishments do not include caning]. -- cheers, John B. |
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:55 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CycleBanter.com