"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no doubt). What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm? thanks, steve -- "The accused will now make a bogus statement." James Joyce |
"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:56:22 GMT, "steve" a écrit :
Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no doubt). What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm? thanks, steve Davey thinks Roll is an uncouth, ignorant, semi literate slob with an IQ somewhere around 4O and who has difficulty stringing more than two words together to form a coherent sentence and who definitely isn't qualified to comment on anything more profound than what he had for breakfast. There Roll, it's payback time Remember shouting your usual garbage at an older rider in the Place Massena in July 1988? |
"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class of the US. There are some slight chances for inter-caste mobility both in Europe and the US - either with a lucky, huge lottery win, or as in some cases, those lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time during the internet boom. In any case, if you aren't already wealthy, you've missed out. Revtom steve wrote: Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no doubt). What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm? thanks, steve -- "The accused will now make a bogus statement." James Joyce |
"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
steve wrote:
Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no doubt). What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm? Actually, the US is not as class-mobile as it is famous for, depending on how you define class. The US is (or should be) famous for the _appearance_ of mobility because class is more linked to income than strict heredity, but actual measures of income mobility from generation to generation often show that the US is _less_ income-mobile than a number of European countries. This is all speaking about the postwar era. Here's a recent article that suggests Brits define class more by birth than by income: http://www.economist.com/world/brita...ory_id=7289005 (FWIW, as an American, the class jape in the headline about "did they buy their own furniture" was quite inexplicable. I had to read the article to find out that the opposite is inheriting one's furniture, from the previous Lord of Woolshirt-Dundersnipe, presumably. My American co-worker who has lived in Britain figured it out immediately, though.) A bunch of Times poll results for the US (which shows that most Amis think it's easier to move up in the US than Europe): http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html.../index_04.html And a comparison of income-mobility among countries, which suggests the opposite: http://www.americanprogress.org/site...8OVF&b=1579981 Unfortunately, none of these really studied whether bike racers are definitively working-class no matter how much they make, which is sort of the substance of your question, I guess. Ben |
"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
steve wrote: Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no doubt). What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm? thanks, steve There is certainly a great degree of social mobility, but not on the scale found in the US. There are ethnic issues related to this as well. Nationality is based on ethnicity (despite what folks wish to believe) which makes integration of "foreigners" difficult. This does not help the mobility situation. The so-called pro-worker laws that make it hard to fire people reinforces the old-boy networks where people get jobs from people they know, or when to some exclusive school with. This of course happens in the US too, but at least in the US a kid from a trailer park or the projects who does well in school has a chance of getting a good job where they can prove their worth. In Europe hiring "unkowns" like this can be too risky as they can't be fired if they turn out to be flakes, so people like that have a hard time getting jobs. This is the real problem with mobility there. Joseph (American guy who has lived in NY, Chicago, LA, France, Switzerland, and Norway. Also lots of travelling in Europe and US.) |
"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
steve wrote: Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no doubt). What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm? thanks, steve -- "The accused will now make a bogus statement." James Joyce Is this in response to the usual stereotype that bicycle racing success serves to rescue destitute European men from dismal futures slaving away in coal mines? People have been reading too many back-issues of Winning Magazine again. Ergo, Dope or grab a pick-axe. |
"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
wrote in message ups.com... Is this in response to the usual stereotype that bicycle racing success serves to rescue destitute European men from dismal futures slaving away in coal mines? People have been reading too many back-issues of Winning Magazine again. Ergo, Dope or grab a pick-axe. Yea, now it's Dope or answer the phone in a call center. |
"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
"Revtom" wrote in message
oups.com... The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class of the US. See? I told you that idiots are everywhere. Why imagine the fright Europeans have when they discover that the median income for the "lower" classes in a place where wages are very low - Miami - are $35K/year. What's more, 95% of ALL taxes are paid by the upper half of all income earners. Did you know that you can own your own home and have a new car and be on welfare? This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying. Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover simply by talking to any factory worker. Too bad that revtom doesn't understand what he doesn't understand. |
"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
wrote in message
ups.com... steve wrote: Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no doubt). What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm? There is certainly a great degree of social mobility, but not on the scale found in the US. There are ethnic issues related to this as well. Nationality is based on ethnicity (despite what folks wish to believe) which makes integration of "foreigners" difficult. This does not help the mobility situation. The so-called pro-worker laws that make it hard to fire people reinforces the old-boy networks where people get jobs from people they know, or when to some exclusive school with. This of course happens in the US too, but at least in the US a kid from a trailer park or the projects who does well in school has a chance of getting a good job where they can prove their worth. In Europe hiring "unkowns" like this can be too risky as they can't be fired if they turn out to be flakes, so people like that have a hard time getting jobs. This is the real problem with mobility there. A former in-law of my brother did somewhat well in Germany. He tried to move to the USA where he believed his business would thrive. The USA wouldn't let a German immigrate. He moved to Australia and is presently a multimillionaire. If he could have done that in Germany he'd have stayed. |
"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
Revtom wrote: The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class of the US. There are some slight chances for inter-caste mobility both in Europe and the US - either with a lucky, huge lottery win, or as in some cases, those lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time during the internet boom. In any case, if you aren't already wealthy, you've missed out. Revtom There is no rigid class system in the US. Sure it's far from perfect, but it really is the land of oppurtunity. I know personally several people who arrived in the US as refugees from places like Poland and Ethiopia with literally $2 in their pockets who live as comfortable middle-class citizens now. I'm only 3rd generation and even my grandparents who were born on the boat made it to middle class after they got to NY. I also know of black kids who grew up in the projects who are doctors and are on boards of trustees at museums. Sure that's all anecdotal, but that sort of thing is much less common elsewhere. And you don't have to win lotto to become rich. Running a good pizza restaurant or plumbing company can do the trick. And what is wealthy anyway? What is poor? I remember watching (fat) people on "check day" in Chicago standing in line to get their handout while wearing leather jackets, gold jewlrey, and then using the money to pay their cable bill at the same place. I'm not saying there are no problems, but lack of mobility is not one of them. Joseph |
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