Big Mig - honest, dishonest?
 

On May 29, 12:43 am, wrote:

A few years ago my wife was asked to review a new book that had just
been published on a topic related to her field. Part way through the
first chapter, she read a sentence that sounded familiar. The next
sentence, too. She went to her file cabinet, pulled out an article
she'd written a few years before and started comparing sentence after
sentence, paragraph after paragraph, page after page. The guy who was
the nominal author of that chapter was shocked, shocked to discover
this and said he, too, was a victim. He'd trusted that the stuff he'd
taken from his research assistant was original.

Once at a research conference I had a lively BS session
(while studying the procedures of LIVEDRUNK)
with some of my friends about the difference between
"ethical" and "moral." You can likely figure it out;
loosely, one idea is that ethics are a set of accepted
practices (possibly in a specific field) while morals
are guiding principles, Ten Commandments-type stuff.
Is doping in bike racing unethical or amoral? Who the
hell knows? However, your wife's anecdote provides maybe
the best distinction I've seen yet. The research assistant's
plagiarism was unethical, but hardly rises to being immoral.
The author's assertion of authorship was ethical (in keeping
with accepted practice in the field) but immoral.

Ben

Big Mig - honest, dishonest?
 

On Wed, 30 May 2007 09:25:43 +0200, Donald Munro
wrote:

rechungREMOVETHIS wrote:
He'd trusted that the stuff he'd taken from his research assistant was original.

Donald Munro wrote:
Perhaps the research assistants do injections too.

Michael Press wrote:
Research assistants carry the can.

And the blue cooler box.

They has a bucket!

http://ihasabucket.com/

Ron

Big Mig - honest, dishonest?
 

On May 29, 1:56 am, Donald Munro wrote:
wrote:
It's okay though. You did the equivalent of washing
out of your ProTour tryout. I'm the academic 12K dreamer,
or maybe the academic Joe Papp.

Time to get a decent program then.

I tried to sell my integrity, but no one was
buying.

Big Mig - honest, dishonest?
 

On May 30, 11:35 am, "
wrote:
your wife's anecdote provides maybe
the best distinction I've seen yet. The research assistant's
plagiarism was unethical, but hardly rises to being immoral.
The author's assertion of authorship was ethical (in keeping
with accepted practice in the field) but immoral.

I tried to get my wife to go through with the book review. How would
you have classified that?

Big Mig - honest, dishonest?
 

On May 29, 6:55 pm, Bob Schwartz
wrote:
B. Lafferty wrote:
I wonder how you would feel if you raced clean and lost Olympic Gold or the
Tour to a doper. I'd want justice and the medal.

Laff, you're a retard.

I don't have a long list of palmares. I do have a bronze medal in the
Team Pursuit at 2001 Nationals. Let me tell you about that.

One thing about track racing in the US is that thanks to the
mismanagement at USAC it's a pretty grim career track. So because of
that and because so many fast people retire after the Olympics to
take jobs that pay better for less work, there are opportunities
for fat old guys.

I'm not going to pound my chest about what I did to prepare in a
climate where it snows in May. But I can tell you that you can read
stories to your kid at bedtime and still get in a couple of hours
before midnight. It might take a little edge off of your job
performance, so I can tell you it helps with the guilt if your
workplace sucks. I can tell you that if I had kept it up for the
rest of the season after Nationals I probably wouldn't still be
married today, or at least not to the same woman. I can tell you
that it totally sucks ass to look at a radar loop thinking you've
got two hours before the snowstorm hits only to find out an hour
and a half later that you were wrong.

So it's a couple of days before the event and people that can wind
it up to 30+ mph and handle TP exchanges don't grow on trees, let me
tell you. One of the guys that can do that is Doug Beck, the Chemical
Anarchist. As I'm sure you know, Doug is the kind of guy that
non-randomly gets selected as the randomly selected rider to be
tested. They didn't ask us for samples but if they had I would bet the
house that he would have come back negative because he's done that. He
takes the letter from the lab that says he's negative, frames it and
puts it up on the wall.

One of the guys on the team that finished second came up positive for
EPO in an event in a subsequent season.

If anyone is expecting me to start wetting the bed like I've gotten
****ed over at Superweek or something they've got a long wait coming.
One of the reasons is... I have no confidence at all in the validity
of the test. I really don't know if he did it or not. They had a test
that they knew had problems but they didn't want to withdraw it, so
they accepted a certain number of false positives as acceptable
collateral damage. And then there's Doug and his wall decorations.

But the big reason is... it just isn't that important. Really, it's
not. No one other than the people entered even remember who won. There
were six guys on the winning team and I couldn't name them all, I'd
have to look it up.

I decided long before the event what my goals were and they didn't
have anything to do with anyone else. I really don't care what anyone
else might have been taking for their preparation. And when your spouse
starts screaming at you about the amount of time you've been pouring
down that rathole, you figure things out. It just isn't that important.

If you visit the elementary school that my kid attended, you might see
a room with plastic bins full of things like winter coats and other
clothing in a variety of sizes. The social worker used to have packages
of underwear, but they have to make some cuts so I'm not sure how much
she's there anymore. But kids show up all the time without basic
clothing, so they have this stuff laying around. This is something
that is important. Bike racing is not important.

I think that if Joe Papp wanted to travel and see the world he should
have gotten a job and made some money and gone to see the world without
jabbing his ass full of junk to win some race that no one even knew
existed. If he would have had a grip on how inconsequential bike racing
is he might not have done that and would still have his self respect
today.

Only retards think bike racing is important.

Bob Schwartz

You had me at "Laff, you're a retard." But good post anyway -- I
wouldn't have taken the time.

You got "in a couple of hours before midnight?" You must have a job
you hate, or an easy one at any rate.

Big Mig - honest, dishonest?
 

On May 30, 2:35 am, "
wrote:
On May 29, 12:43 am, wrote:



A few years ago my wife was asked to review a new book that had just
been published on a topic related to her field. Part way through the
first chapter, she read a sentence that sounded familiar. The next
sentence, too. She went to her file cabinet, pulled out an article
she'd written a few years before and started comparing sentence after
sentence, paragraph after paragraph, page after page. The guy who was
the nominal author of that chapter was shocked, shocked to discover
this and said he, too, was a victim. He'd trusted that the stuff he'd
taken from his research assistant was original.

Once at a research conference I had a lively BS session
(while studying the procedures of LIVEDRUNK)
with some of my friends...

Okay, well that explains it.

... about the difference between
"ethical" and "moral." You can likely figure it out;
loosely, one idea is that ethics are a set of accepted
practices (possibly in a specific field) while morals
are guiding principles, Ten Commandments-type stuff.

That's okay, I suppose -- especially if someone knows your
distinctions when speaking to you. I reckon many people won't if you
don't tell them. The definitions I've seen published make the two
essentially synonymous. I've had my own *weak* distinction, but it is
nothing like your's.

Is doping in bike racing unethical or amoral? Who the
hell knows?

Prima facie, it is unethical to dope under the current rules. If you
agree in participating that you will not break the rules against
doping, then you should not break the rules.

There are situations when lying is acceptable: telling a robber you
don't have any more money when you do not is not immoral/unethical.
There is no duty to tell the barbarian inside the gates the truth, or
to aid them in any way.

Big Mig - honest, dishonest?
 

"Bob Schwartz" wrote in message
et...

Only retards think bike racing is important.

Only Lafferty believes that drug free cycling is both possible and
important.

Big Mig - honest, dishonest?
 

In article .com,
wrote:

On May 30, 11:35 am, "
wrote:
your wife's anecdote provides maybe
the best distinction I've seen yet. The research assistant's
plagiarism was unethical, but hardly rises to being immoral.
The author's assertion of authorship was ethical (in keeping
with accepted practice in the field) but immoral.

I tried to get my wife to go through with the book review. How would
you have classified that?

Hilarious?

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Big Mig - honest, dishonest?
 

Big Mig - honest, dishonest?
 

I would argue that Julich was clean, and Eki became clean later in his
career, but it's irrelevant because you can't prove anything now.
Just leave it be and move on in the right direction. Villifying these
guys ain't going to move us forward! They were wrong, but I'm not so
quick to blame them for it all. Would you prefer to work in a paint
factory or win the Tour? Perhaps some of us are strong enough to make
that call, but life in America is relatively easy, life in some
European countries wasn't so easy. I have to be honest, if I had a
choice of leaving Siberia or some eastern block country and taking my
familay out too I'm not sure I'd make the 'right' choice.

Riis doped. Who among us didn't already know that? Indurain's
statements are cryptic and ambiguous. If I was clean, I'd say it flat
out, not do this dance of words about Riis coming clean now and what
good would it do and how I lost the Tour, rather being beaten. What
kind of crap is that? Maybe Big Mig wanted out and finally stopped
doping in '96 to 'fake' his collapse...

Doping in the '90's is like a tootsie pop...The world may never know.

CH