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-   -   Cyclists triggering red light cameras (http://www.cyclebanter.com/showthread.php?t=257322)

jOHN b. April 13th 19 12:29 AM

Cyclists triggering red light cameras
 
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote:


There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs.


Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried
vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it
is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution.


Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars.


But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can
selectively disregard the law?

If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I
certainly know people that believe that is justified.

Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently
a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid
theft by employees.
--
cheers,

John B.


JBeattie April 13th 19 01:51 AM

Cyclists triggering red light cameras
 
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote:


There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs.

Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried
vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it
is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution.


Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars.


But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can
selectively disregard the law?

If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I
certainly know people that believe that is justified.

Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently
a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid
theft by employees.


We're talking traffic laws and not employee theft.

We all disregard traffic laws sometimes. We often disregard laws that we don't even know we're disregarding. Motorists have been disregarding traffic laws since there were cars. https://gizmodo.com/on-this-day-in-1...ned-1579044541

Every small infraction does not lead one down the path to grand-theft, rape and murder. Some infractions are bad from a moral or/or safety standpoint -- and others not so much. https://tinyurl.com/yy3ot6g2 (Jeffrey City, Wyoming -- I probably rode my bike through that stop sign).

What I love are motorists who think I'm disregarding the law when I'm not. Cars will honk when I take a left turn through a red light onto a one-way street. Cars will sit at the light when there is no traffic -- simply because they don't know the traffic law. The maroons should read the paper. https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting...devils_in.html Cars will go ballistic if I get out of the bike lane to pass another bike or avoid hazards. All legal. Most people rant about others breaking the traffic law and don't even know the law.

Now, when I really DO break the law on my bike and get honked at or cited, well that's on me. If I hurt someone in the process, then I bear moral and legal blame. So, I try not to ride in a way that will place anyone, including me, in danger. But when I hit a stop sign with no traffic, I'm not putting my foot down. So far, it has not led me down the slippery slope to Felonyville.

-- Jay Beattie.


Tim McNamara April 13th 19 02:48 AM

Cyclists triggering red light cameras
 
On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 16:07:16 -0700 (PDT), AK
wrote:
I was looking up whether a cyclist can get a ticket.

And found this

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...391955121.html

I see a lot of cyclists running stop signs.

That sets a bad example.

Andy


And ****es off car drivers who see that and believe that bicyclists get
special privileges on the roads with impunity from the law.

Tim McNamara April 13th 19 02:55 AM

Cyclists triggering red light cameras
 
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:59:11 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

One of our customers, a very fit woman in her 50s, was hit in an
intersection, rolled through the windshield and instinctively punched
the driver square in his face. She was fine but for bruises.


Did she get arrested for assault and battery?

AK[_2_] April 13th 19 03:09 AM

Cyclists triggering red light cameras
 
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 5:01:53 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:50:23 +0200, Sepp Ruf
wrote:

James wrote:
On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote:
On Thursday, April 11, 2019 at 9:25:43 PM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 12/4/19 9:07 am, AK wrote:
I was looking up whether a cyclist can get a ticket.

And found this

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...391955121.html

I see a lot of cyclists running stop signs.

That sets a bad example.

Many motorists complain about cyclists running red lights, so
researchers did some researching.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/01/...an-drivers-do/

Bad examples aside, it is also worth remembering that someone on a
bicycle who disobeys a red light really only puts themselves at
risk. I'm yet to read of a car v bike crash where the car driver
suffers injuries other than perhaps psychological.

However when a motorist disobeys a red light they endanger all other
road users and themselves.

There is a distinct difference in the level of risk.

I think you are forgetting some things.

If a cyclist blows thru a red light and is struck by a car, don't you
think the driver will be at least a tad bit traumatized?

Read again what I wrote.


Yeah, but why doesn't anybody ever think of the children or the dog in the back?

There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs.

Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried
vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it
is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution.


A former life insurance CEO, trained mathematician, just got killed by a
drunk motorist, wife badly injured, obediently waiting at a stoplight with
their pedelecs. They should have kept moving. Great against muggers, too.

http://www.tellerreport.com/news/--hit-by-drunk--w%C3%BCstenrot-board-heinen-dies-after-a-traffic-accident-.SyxCy3XcYE.html

And while I am at it....

Cyclists should ride close to the curb while in bike lanes.


"Daddy, look, another clueless gutter bunny!"

I have seen some who ride close to the car lane and have been clipped
by a cars side mirror.


Ride squarely in the "car lane" if the "bike" lane is unsafely narrow or
blocked.


Hmm... I habitually ride on highways that do not have a reserved
bicycle lane and where the majority of the traffic is traveling at
speeds greater then 100 kph. Are you suggesting that I ride squarely
in the "car lane"?

Whenever there is a contest between car and bike, the outcome is ALWAYS
the same. The cyclist loses. It don't matter if you had the right of
way, etc.

Oh dear. You probably won't be very popular with a number of people who
chat on this news group with opinions like that.


AK scientist had already triggered some troll alert lamps.


Ah, you are saying that when a car and bicycle contest the way that
the bicycle comes off best? If so than there are a whole lot of folks
who have had horrible bad luck as in every bicycle crash recounted on
this site, over the years, the bicycle has always come off the worst.
--
cheers,

John B.


I think the ones complaining about my post are the biggest violators.

I guess their guilt brings out the worst.? :-)

The world is becoming a relativist society. For many, there are no absolute moral standards.

Pastor Andy :-)

jOHN b. April 13th 19 04:04 AM

Cyclists triggering red light cameras
 
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:51:19 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote:


There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs.

Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried
vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it
is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution.


Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars.


But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can
selectively disregard the law?

If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I
certainly know people that believe that is justified.

Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently
a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid
theft by employees.


We're talking traffic laws and not employee theft.


No, we are talking about the fact that laws are made prevent some evil
deed from happening. If one argues that some law does not have to be
obeyed, or that everyone ignores it, than what is the reason that the
law was exacted? Are laws to be passed so that one can disobey them at
one's convenience?

We all disregard traffic laws sometimes. We often disregard laws that we don't even know we're disregarding. Motorists have been disregarding traffic laws since there were cars. https://gizmodo.com/on-this-day-in-1...ned-1579044541


Does the fact that someone disregards a law mean that the law is
meaningless? If so then why was the law enacted?

Every small infraction does not lead one down the path to grand-theft, rape and murder. Some infractions are bad from a moral or/or safety standpoint -- and others not so much. https://tinyurl.com/yy3ot6g2 (Jeffrey City, Wyoming -- I probably rode my bike through that stop sign).


No but a small infarction - running a red light or stop sign, which
seems to be considered a small infraction, could result in someone's
death.

What I love are motorists who think I'm disregarding the law when I'm not. Cars will honk when I take a left turn through a red light onto a one-way street. Cars will sit at the light when there is no traffic -- simply because they don't know the traffic law. The maroons should read the paper. https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting...devils_in.html Cars will go ballistic if I get out of the bike lane to pass another bike or avoid hazards. All legal. Most people rant about others breaking the traffic law and don't even know the law.


Well in Thailand there are even signs posted that say, "Turn Left On
Red" :-)

Now, when I really DO break the law on my bike and get honked at or cited, well that's on me. If I hurt someone in the process, then I bear moral and legal blame. So, I try not to ride in a way that will place anyone, including me, in danger. But when I hit a stop sign with no traffic, I'm not putting my foot down. So far, it has not led me down the slippery slope to Felonyville.

-- Jay Beattie.

--
cheers,

John B.


Sir Ridesalot April 13th 19 12:02 PM

Cyclists triggering red light cameras
 
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 6:58:12 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote:


There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs.


Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried
vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it
is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution.


Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars.


My buddy bicycling buddy whilst bicycling one night slowed way down at a red light, looked and saw no other vehicles moving on either road and then proceeded through the red light. Unfortunately for him there was a "letter of the Law police officer sitting in a cruiser and that officer gave my buddy a ticket.

Cheers

Frank Krygowski[_4_] April 13th 19 05:10 PM

Cyclists triggering red light cameras
 
On 4/12/2019 6:05 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:06:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/12/2019 2:21 AM, AK wrote:

I think you are forgetting some things.

If a cyclist blows thru a red light and is struck by a car, don't you think the driver will be at least a tad bit traumatized?


Give me a break. "Traumatized" is used mostly as a "let my client off
the hook" excuse for guilty motorists.

There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs.


The troll alert is beginning to sound...

And while I am at it....

Cyclists should ride close to the curb while in bike lanes.


Bull**** alert plus flashing troll alert!

(Or is it just flaming, inexcusable ignorance?)

Whenever there is a contest between car and bike, the outcome is ALWAYS the same. The cyclist loses. It don't matter if you had the right of way, etc.


Fine. Whether you, Andy, are a cyclist or a motorist, just stay off the
roads. Your attitudes demonstrate critical ignorance and incompetence.


I see Frank. You are arguing that when a bicycle/motor vehicle crash
occurs that the bicycle does not come off worse?


No, I'm saying that Andy's post was generally anti-cyclist, and the
final "it doesn't matter" sounds like he's hinting that cyclists should
abandon their right of way. That's bull****.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski[_4_] April 13th 19 05:13 PM

Cyclists triggering red light cameras
 
On 4/12/2019 6:59 PM, AMuzi wrote:


One of our customers, a very fit woman in her 50s, was hit in an
intersection, rolled through the windshield and instinctively punched
the driver square in his face.* She was fine but for bruises.


Excellent!



--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski[_4_] April 13th 19 05:23 PM

Cyclists triggering red light cameras
 
On 4/12/2019 10:09 PM, AK wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 5:01:53 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:50:23 +0200, Sepp Ruf
wrote:

James wrote:
On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote:
On Thursday, April 11, 2019 at 9:25:43 PM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 12/4/19 9:07 am, AK wrote:
I was looking up whether a cyclist can get a ticket.

And found this

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...391955121.html

I see a lot of cyclists running stop signs.

That sets a bad example.

Many motorists complain about cyclists running red lights, so
researchers did some researching.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/01/...an-drivers-do/

Bad examples aside, it is also worth remembering that someone on a
bicycle who disobeys a red light really only puts themselves at
risk. I'm yet to read of a car v bike crash where the car driver
suffers injuries other than perhaps psychological.

However when a motorist disobeys a red light they endanger all other
road users and themselves.

There is a distinct difference in the level of risk.

I think you are forgetting some things.

If a cyclist blows thru a red light and is struck by a car, don't you
think the driver will be at least a tad bit traumatized?

Read again what I wrote.

Yeah, but why doesn't anybody ever think of the children or the dog in the back?

There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs.

Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried
vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it
is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution.

A former life insurance CEO, trained mathematician, just got killed by a
drunk motorist, wife badly injured, obediently waiting at a stoplight with
their pedelecs. They should have kept moving. Great against muggers, too.

http://www.tellerreport.com/news/--hit-by-drunk--w%C3%BCstenrot-board-heinen-dies-after-a-traffic-accident-.SyxCy3XcYE.html

And while I am at it....

Cyclists should ride close to the curb while in bike lanes.

"Daddy, look, another clueless gutter bunny!"

I have seen some who ride close to the car lane and have been clipped
by a cars side mirror.

Ride squarely in the "car lane" if the "bike" lane is unsafely narrow or
blocked.


Hmm... I habitually ride on highways that do not have a reserved
bicycle lane and where the majority of the traffic is traveling at
speeds greater then 100 kph. Are you suggesting that I ride squarely
in the "car lane"?

Whenever there is a contest between car and bike, the outcome is ALWAYS
the same. The cyclist loses. It don't matter if you had the right of
way, etc.

Oh dear. You probably won't be very popular with a number of people who
chat on this news group with opinions like that.

AK scientist had already triggered some troll alert lamps.


Ah, you are saying that when a car and bicycle contest the way that
the bicycle comes off best? If so than there are a whole lot of folks
who have had horrible bad luck as in every bicycle crash recounted on
this site, over the years, the bicycle has always come off the worst.
--
cheers,

John B.


I think the ones complaining about my post are the biggest violators.


Wrong, at least in my case. Your prejudice is showing.

The world is becoming a relativist society. For many, there are no absolute moral standards.

Pastor Andy :-)


I would question the morality of a person who tries to scare bicyclists
into gutter riding, i.e. not even using the full width of a bike lane.
"Cyclists should ride close to the curb while in bike lanes" is
nonsense, and most people who say such things are domineering motorists
with "get out of my way" mentalities. That's the opposite of charity.

Anyone who has done any serious study of competent bicycling knows the
dangers of gutter riding.


--
- Frank Krygowski


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