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-   -   Hills and Flats (http://www.cyclebanter.com/showthread.php?t=257422)

Tom Kunich[_5_] May 13th 19 05:33 PM

Hills and Flats
 
Do you suppose climbing hills can put you into the same physical shape as riding fast on the flats?

[email protected] May 13th 19 09:32 PM

Hills and Flats
 
Of course. 250 W on the flats is the same as 250 W in the hills. On the flats though it is harder to train at a higher power/intensity. Headwind is your friend then.

Andre Jute[_2_] May 15th 19 02:33 PM

Hills and Flats
 
On Monday, May 13, 2019 at 5:33:14 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
Do you suppose climbing hills can put you into the same physical shape as riding fast on the flats?


A rugby coach I trained under, Dr Danie Craven, used to run us up the steep hill behind our home field. He was a very successful coach.

Direct answer to your question: I don't see how you can maintain the same output on the flat as on hills unless you have butterfly cadence or gearing that would be a pain in the hills.

Andre Jute
What I love best is downhills

news18 May 16th 19 05:53 AM

Hills and Flats
 
On Mon, 13 May 2019 09:33:12 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:

Do you suppose climbing hills can put you into the same physical shape
as riding fast on the flats?


Shape isn't a defined physical state.
if you're after "fit' yes,
but fit for what?
Hills are more about power, where as flats are more endurance.


AMuzi May 16th 19 02:58 PM

Hills and Flats
 
On 5/15/2019 11:53 PM, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 13 May 2019 09:33:12 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:

Do you suppose climbing hills can put you into the same physical shape
as riding fast on the flats?


Shape isn't a defined physical state.
if you're after "fit' yes,
but fit for what?
Hills are more about power, where as flats are more endurance.


To quote the always quotable Rich Hammen in his newspaper
column 'Ask Captain America' when asked if one should train
by spinning small gears or pushing big gears. "To win, you
spin big gears."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971



Tom Kunich[_5_] May 16th 19 05:02 PM

Hills and Flats
 
On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 6:58:03 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/15/2019 11:53 PM, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 13 May 2019 09:33:12 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:

Do you suppose climbing hills can put you into the same physical shape
as riding fast on the flats?


Shape isn't a defined physical state.
if you're after "fit' yes,
but fit for what?
Hills are more about power, where as flats are more endurance.


To quote the always quotable Rich Hammen in his newspaper
column 'Ask Captain America' when asked if one should train
by spinning small gears or pushing big gears. "To win, you
spin big gears."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I think that there is something to both. I have done a couple of flat rides and moderate to hard paces and then Tuesday did a normally hard ride and was a whole mph higher average than the previous time on that same course. There are no stop signs on that course to interfere with your average.

Andre Jute[_2_] May 16th 19 06:08 PM

Hills and Flats
 
On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 2:58:03 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/15/2019 11:53 PM, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 13 May 2019 09:33:12 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:

Do you suppose climbing hills can put you into the same physical shape
as riding fast on the flats?


Shape isn't a defined physical state.
if you're after "fit' yes,
but fit for what?
Hills are more about power, where as flats are more endurance.


To quote the always quotable Rich Hammen in his newspaper
column 'Ask Captain America' when asked if one should train
by spinning small gears or pushing big gears. "To win, you
spin big gears."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


What about those who came late to cycling and can't learn to spin, who mash on regardless?

Andre Jute
Don't shoot the cyclist, he's riding the road as made

AMuzi May 16th 19 06:42 PM

Hills and Flats
 
On 5/16/2019 12:08 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 2:58:03 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/15/2019 11:53 PM, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 13 May 2019 09:33:12 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:

Do you suppose climbing hills can put you into the same physical shape
as riding fast on the flats?

Shape isn't a defined physical state.
if you're after "fit' yes,
but fit for what?
Hills are more about power, where as flats are more endurance.


To quote the always quotable Rich Hammen in his newspaper
column 'Ask Captain America' when asked if one should train
by spinning small gears or pushing big gears. "To win, you
spin big gears."


What about those who came late to cycling and can't learn to spin, who mash on regardless?

Andre Jute
Don't shoot the cyclist, he's riding the road as made


Any riding is a good thing but of course victory will not be
yours.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971



Duane[_4_] May 16th 19 10:52 PM

Hills and Flats
 
AMuzi wrote:
On 5/16/2019 12:08 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 2:58:03 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/15/2019 11:53 PM, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 13 May 2019 09:33:12 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:

Do you suppose climbing hills can put you into the same physical shape
as riding fast on the flats?

Shape isn't a defined physical state.
if you're after "fit' yes,
but fit for what?
Hills are more about power, where as flats are more endurance.


To quote the always quotable Rich Hammen in his newspaper
column 'Ask Captain America' when asked if one should train
by spinning small gears or pushing big gears. "To win, you
spin big gears."


What about those who came late to cycling and can't learn to spin, who mash on regardless?

Andre Jute
Don't shoot the cyclist, he's riding the road as made


Any riding is a good thing but of course victory will not be
yours.


Depends a lot on how you define victory.

--
duane

Tom Kunich[_5_] May 16th 19 11:27 PM

Hills and Flats
 
On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 10:08:42 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 2:58:03 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/15/2019 11:53 PM, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 13 May 2019 09:33:12 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:

Do you suppose climbing hills can put you into the same physical shape
as riding fast on the flats?

Shape isn't a defined physical state.
if you're after "fit' yes,
but fit for what?
Hills are more about power, where as flats are more endurance.


To quote the always quotable Rich Hammen in his newspaper
column 'Ask Captain America' when asked if one should train
by spinning small gears or pushing big gears. "To win, you
spin big gears."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


What about those who came late to cycling and can't learn to spin, who mash on regardless?

Andre Jute
Don't shoot the cyclist, he's riding the road as made


Or those that came early and learned that you had a 42 small ring on a 23 freewheel. I simply cannot "spin" because when I push the pedal down the bike moves so little forward that I'm exhausted from going nowhere slowly.

Andre Jute[_2_] May 17th 19 12:26 AM

Hills and Flats
 
On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 10:52:45 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 5/16/2019 12:08 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 2:58:03 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/15/2019 11:53 PM, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 13 May 2019 09:33:12 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:

Do you suppose climbing hills can put you into the same physical shape
as riding fast on the flats?

Shape isn't a defined physical state.
if you're after "fit' yes,
but fit for what?
Hills are more about power, where as flats are more endurance.


To quote the always quotable Rich Hammen in his newspaper
column 'Ask Captain America' when asked if one should train
by spinning small gears or pushing big gears. "To win, you
spin big gears."


What about those who came late to cycling and can't learn to spin, who mash on regardless?

Andre Jute
Don't shoot the cyclist, he's riding the road as made


Any riding is a good thing but of course victory will not be
yours.


Depends a lot on how you define victory.

--
duane


I define "victory" much like Tom appears to, as cycling adding to my fitness and longevity. But I'm not trying to build up either power or speed, I'm trying to build endurance. My entire riding area is hilly, so I have hills to work with. As a masher with a low cadence, I can use the Rohloff 14 speed hub gearbox on my everyday bike to change gears, or I can use the electric motor to fill in by either the throttle, the pedelec (assistance matched to my pedalling input, exactly the opposite of what I want on a hill where I want electric input as my pedal input declines), or one of the stepped programmes of assistance, nine in all of which I use 5 because that seems enough, or of course a combination of the Rohloff, the electronic programmes, and the throttle for fine tuning. Eventually it becomes second nature to fix your heart rate to the predetermined point and keep it relatively steady there.

Since two heart surgeries, my health has improved through cycling to where my original 38x16 tooth setup has become a 42x16 without stressing me any higher. I measure stress and desired output by my heart rate rather than by speed to distance, because my cardiologists don't want my heart rate to exceed 79%. Before I negotiated the new limit with the cardiologists, the therapists actually set a 70% level, and hated my Nordic Air Walker as bringing my heartate up "too fast", though my treadmill and rower meet with their approval. On my bike a Polar chest sender dispatches the reading to the app Polar Beat on my iPhone which is on the handlebars right in my sightline, so I know how near to target heart rate I am at all times; it also reports verbally every kilometer so that you know what's up when you have to pay attention to the road or the traffic. With practice you use only the top seven gears in the Rohloff with the five "gears" in the Bagang BBS controller (or the throttle) to maintain the target heartbeat whatever the terrain -- except, oddly, on the flat, where I run out of gears even with approximately 40% in three overdrive gears (I set gear 11, the direct gear, as the gear where my cadence maxes out on the flat) because my cadence just isn't fast enough.

Andre Jute
Bicycling used to be such fun before the math took over...

Duane[_2_] May 17th 19 03:04 PM

Hills and Flats
 
On 16/05/2019 7:26 p.m., Andre Jute wrote:
snip

I define "victory" much like Tom appears to, as cycling adding to my fitness and longevity. But I'm not trying to build up either power or speed, I'm trying to build endurance. My entire riding area is hilly, so I have hills to work with. As a masher with a low cadence, I can use the Rohloff 14 speed hub gearbox on my everyday bike to change gears, or I can use the electric motor to fill in by either the throttle, the pedelec (assistance matched to my pedalling input, exactly the opposite of what I want on a hill where I want electric input as my pedal input declines), or one of the stepped programmes of assistance, nine in all of which I use 5 because that seems enough, or of course a combination of the Rohloff, the electronic programmes, and the throttle for fine tuning. Eventually it becomes second nature to fix your heart rate to the predetermined point and keep it relatively steady there.



snip

Same here for the most part. But I pay attention to power and speed as
benchmarks. I don't expect to race anyone anymore but I like the
progress as a motivator.


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