On 4/12/2019 11:04 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:51:19 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote:


There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs.

Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried
vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it
is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution.


Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars.

But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can
selectively disregard the law?

If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I
certainly know people that believe that is justified.

Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently
a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid
theft by employees.

We're talking traffic laws and not employee theft.

No, we are talking about the fact that laws are made prevent some evil
deed from happening. If one argues that some law does not have to be
obeyed, or that everyone ignores it, than what is the reason that the
law was exacted? Are laws to be passed so that one can disobey them at
one's convenience?

John, you're sounding so naive!

Laws are passed in a messy process involving a variable mix of good
intentions, rational analysis, political considerations, under-table
bribes, laziness, unrealistic optimism and more. There's no shortage of
laws that are mistakes.

When laws are passed, they may or may not make it into the attention or
knowledge of the public or the police forces.

People operating vehicles on public roads almost always have imperfect
knowledge of the laws. Most generally do what seems reasonable and safe
to them at a given time, with the usual bell curve spread on that
interpretation.

Cops observing road users generally approach their job the same way. As
one example, if they see a vehicle operator - bicyclist or motorist -
roll through a stop sign at 1 mph while clearly checking for traffic and
seeing none, a cop will almost never nail them for a violation of the
stop sign. They exercise reasonable judgment. Ditto for going 27 in a 25
zone, for not turning on headlights the moment the sun has set, or
whatever.

This is the real world as it is, at least in every place I've lived or
visited. It's a waste of mental energy to either pretend or wish for
100% strict obedience to every law. Or to wish for all laws to be 100%
justifiable.

(FWIW, in a 100% perfect fantasyland, I think most Stop signs would
actually be Yield signs, at _least_ for bicyclists. Look up "Idaho Stop.")

... a small infarction - running a red light or stop sign, which
seems to be considered a small infraction, could result in someone's
death.

Quit playing "worst case scenario." In 99.9% of the cases, an innocent
highway user's death (that is, someone who violated no law) is caused by
a motorist, not a bicyclist or pedestrian.

If you can find a case of a bicyclist rolling through a stop sign and
causing the death of a motorist, please post it here.


--
- Frank Krygowski