In article ,
"Sandy" wrote:

Authoratative in is presentation, he didn't nibble away at the LNDD lab - he
did his best to savage it. At very least, he offered a position one could
take to discredit the results and physical procedures at that lab.

But there is something a little disturbing, which can be read two ways.

His testimony included the fact that he is currently designing,
manufacturing and selling a still better instrument. Just like Dr
Meier-Augenstein. There is a good deal of self-interest in their
participation in this arb. What can one conclude ? Two paths appear, as I
see it.

First, that if the new instrumentation, software, procedures are all the
latest in the state of the art, and the older generation instruments are now
antiques, less reliable too, then the Test B protocol is no better than
informative, but not conclusive, even if properly performed. Everyone
agrees that Test A is unsatisfactory, as it will not identify certain doping
methods. Now, Test B is called into question in the overall scheme. As I
have posited before, both methodologies are suspect, there is variation
between WADA labs on the precise procedures which constitute good practice.

What's the panel to do????? Not an easy task, but one clear avenue is to
discard the entire set of findings on Landis, as the WADA and UCI rules of
finding a violation is not supported by a clear scientific consensus. The
more likely route is to allow this in as evidence of performance of the
proper tests, and more or less properly, but give it limited NOT irrebutable
weight in proof of doping.

What then ????? Then, one is left with the testimony of everyone _except_
the academics, and you have to look at Landis' _conduct_ to be
determinative. Conduct as he himself testified, as well as circumstantial
evidence from other lay witnesses. Also, the testimony of Joe Papp can be
given limited weight to show that doping is done, the kind of product in
question is in common use, and even Landis stated that he searched the
internet to learn about the effects of various doping products.

I think this has turned out to be a very hard case. Most of all, in my
mind, it will need to rest on what Landis proposed himself - you can believe
him or not. If anything, I see this arb as having arrived at exactly the
right issue to be resolved. If UCI loses, and appeals to TAS, and wins
reversal on the basis of all the technical testimony, then we know that WADA
is, unequivocally, an evil. But we already knew that.

Apologies for this rather short question at the end of your long and
useful analysis, but isn't the big problem that if legitimate problems
with the testing are raised, that any attempt to convict from there on
out becomes a case of "fake, but accurate"?

Perhaps I don't understand the purview of this hearing, but I would have
assumed that their job was primarily to confirm that the testing was
done to protocol (I assume the protocols themselves, like it or not, are
essentially taken as having "judicial notice" barring extraordinary
evidence to the contrary).

As for the testimony of Joe Papp, well, is he any better as a witness of
the state of performance enhancement than the aspiring pro who posted
here about his kenacort problem? I know they just brought him in to
counter the "T is a useless drug for instant performance" assertion from
the Landis side, but while it's one thing if you've got Dr. Puffinstuff
declaring that he did a proper study with 10 athletes, and found out
that testosterone doping was like rocket fuel you could drink, but if
the most compelling evidence you can find is Joe Papp, nearly-pro rider,
who has apparently ridden in "multi-day stage races like the Tour de
France" (what, the Giro, the Vuelta, some other 21-day tour I haven't
heard about? RAAM?), then I begin to wonder if you don't have a very
good case on that point.

http://www.joepapp.com/index.php?pag...ws&element=219

Oh dear heavens. Papp is Kenacort Guy:

"During the Landis hearing, Papp acknowledged systematically doping
under the guidance of medical professionals in the United States, Europe
and Latin America. He admitted to using at various times EPO, HGH,
cortisone, insulin, thyroid hormone, anabolic steroids and amphetamines"

Aren't insulin and cortisone like the two-fer of drugs for dumb athletes?

Looking into the heart or soul of Landis would seem to be a bit outside
of the purview of this hearing, but I'm not a member of the AAA. or AA.
I'm an enemy of Bill W.

Also, and this has now gone from tangent to personal dissing, but can
anyone please explain the case of Joe Papp's missing wife? Like any
red-blooded American (note clever Joe Papp riding-the-Tour elision!) I
think Hugo Chavez is the devil, but if she was hiding in Venezuela, what
thing was preventing her from traveling to Europe, or the US, or for
that matter, just to Brazil? As far as I know, the country's borders are
still open, along with its airports.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos