On 3/2/2020 9:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 7:59:53 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 5:11:56 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 2/28/2020 2:53 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:13:02 -0800, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 2/28/2020 12:40 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 10:17:06 PM UTC+1, Mark J. wrote:
On 2/27/2020 10:50 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 9:50:17 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 3:38:55 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 3:06:23 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 12:51:52 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 9:18:30 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 7:26:35 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 10:21:41 PM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 10:41:06 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I an a bit afraid of the term "anti-seize", in this case, as so many
anti-seizes contain some sort of metallic particles to aid in high
temperature uses. Not very useful in preventing galvanic corrosion.
One of the most useful "stuff" I used on the boat was basically
lanolin with some sort of thickener.

The purpose of an anti-seize compound is to:
1. Electrically insulate dissimilar metallic components from each
other.
2. Squeeze itself into the tiny surface cracks and crevasses to act
as a reservoir in case the fastener looses anti-seize (or thread lock)
compound.
3. Reflow slightly when hot or under pressure.
4. In the absence of oxygen, polymerize with metals to form a
"sticky" bond. For anti-seize, this bond is rather weak. For thread
lock, rather strong.
"Basics on Anaerobic Adhesives and Threadlockers"
https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/24136/anaerobic-adhesives-threadlockers
You can use greases to insulate and block electrolysis, but will be
missing the benefits of #4. Some greases are also not so good with
#3, where heating and solvent attack will soon cause the anti-seize to
wash away and disappear.

Incidentally, the need for cracks and crevasses for lubricants and
sealants to function is why bearing and glued surfaces are not
polished to excessive smoothness.

The last ditch solution is to (carefully) drill the stuck fitting out
and re tap the hole but I hesitate to recommend that as it does
require a certain amount of skill, the proper tools, and so on.

Nope. Try that with a threaded insert (rivet nut), and the insert
will spin out of the CF frame before the screw is drilled out.
Everything will be fine, until the drill starts to break through the
bottom end of the insert. The drill will then jam, and the power of
the drill and inertia of the chuck and armature will rip the insert
from the CF frame. If the drill has a torque limiter, it might work,
but wouldn't want to take the chance. The nice thing about doing such
things by hand is one gets some feedback just before things go
horribly wrong. Experience is all about recognizing this feedback.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

It turns out that the screw was stainless and that it has a stainless "nut" cast into the frame. I removed the other end and looked at it. So there isn't any area for electrolytic dissimilar materials to interact in any way to seize the threads.

I guess the idiot who owned the frame before simply tightened a 2 mm screws way too much. I was wondering why I got the frame and all of the additional frame pieces for so cheap - 2018 for $500 and another $50 shipping. Two small paint knicks, one that is plain down by the off-side chain stay where I believe the off-side crank arm struck. I also have to discover why the new cranks hit the chain stay. One thing I know - a standard bearing for those BB-90's is supposed to be 37 x 24 x 7 mm. Trek (who is opening a local factory store!) uses a non-standard 37 x 24 x 7.3 mm bearing and chances are that is the problem.

The bike is a breeze to build. I hope this doesn't turn into one of your months long, agonizing wrong parts buying frenzies. BB 90 is a standard 7mm bearing width. They use a bearing shield, which you're probably missing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mix25T4PdnY. If you still have play after installing the shields, then use a shim. If the crank arm is hitting, and there is no play in the system, then you have the wrong crank -- which would be impossible if you're using a Shimano Hollowtech road crank, but I fully expect that we'll go down some rabbit hole until you disclose that the crank is in backwards.

-- Jay Beattie.

The bearing was installed when I got it and the shield in on. Hambini made a point about the Trek using the none-standard bearing width so I am assuming that someone replaced the bearing with a standard BB90 bearing. Either that or the frame was made with one of the bearing cups too deep. Easily fixed by purchasing a Hambini BB90 Bearing. But these can only be installed after all of the wiring is installed since they are one piece and the Trek is three (actually four There are two shield cups that fit together.) pieces.

Which gives me the idea - Perhaps the cups were install reversed.

Groan. A standard BB90 bearing is 24X37X7 -- that's what your Trek uses. Rabbit hole here we come. The cups (bearing seats) are moulded into the frame. There is nothing to install backwards. The internal plastic shell is not structural and just a moisture guard, and the lip fits into a recess. Please tell me you are not using a GPX crank. In fact, WHAT CRANK ARE YOU USING?

Bearing replacement is a ten minute operation. I've done it . . . in ten minutes.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, I'm tired of explain things to you. If you don't know what you're talking about just F off.

Explain what crank you're using? O.K. Fine with me. Continue muddling on.

-- Jay Beattie.

Pardon me for getting ****ed off. I said that Trek uses non-standard BB90 bearing sizes slightly wider than the usual BB90.

No. It's a standard 7mm (24X37X7) width bearing except for GPX, which is 8mm drive side. See e.g. https://wheelsmfg.com/enduro-24-x-37...d-bearing.html I find it hard to believe Trek is using a 7.3mm bearing. Why would they produce an expensive, non-standard size bearing instead of using a thicker bearing shield or shim?

Also inside there are tubular covers that are asymmetrical - one side is of a larger diameter than the other so that they fit together one inside the other. This also means that the facing on one side is of a larger diameter than the other. So maybe they can be reversed though that seems a bit unlikely to me.

Like I said, that is not a structural element and does not affect the bearing seat. I suppose it could be misinstalled somehow and prevent the bearings from seating, but it would be obvious before the bearings went in that the sleeve flanges were not seated.

The crank as I said before is a standard Ultegra FC-R8000.

The three upper class Trek road bikes - the Domaine, Madone and Emonda are all made in Wisconsin.

Nope. The top end is made in Taiwan, and Project One are painted/finished in Wisconsin. I have one -- purchased directly from my friends at Trek. Awesome bike.

snip

As for your later comments - I never said nor implied that it was a "giant undertaking". I said that you have to buy a 24 mm axle bearing removal tool (most of them are for 30 mm axles) and a bearing press. The removal took is cheap and effective but the press comes in all grades from absolute trash (a bolt, two washers and a nut) to large complex fits-all press that runs several hundreds of dollars. I just had a quote on my impending tooth implant for over $5,000. Spending $300 for a set of tools that would be used twice in the rest of my life is pretty silly don't you think? When a shop charges you $20 to replace the bearings?

You were going on about your crank arm hitting the chainstay and the need for odd-ball bearings and the possibility that the bearing "cups" were in backwards, etc., etc. -- all strange complaints for a simple bearing install. Yes, if you don't want to buy the tools, then have a shop do the install. If you own a headset press, all you need a https://www.biketiresdirect.com/prod...SABEgIKI_D_BwE

The usual reason for a left arm hitting the stay is that the crank is not seated. Whack the right side. If, after the crank is seated, there is still lateral play, then you should get some shims from Wheels MFG. And if the Trek shop is doing the bearing install, they can manage all this anyway. I can't comment on the Di2 routing because my Emonda is cable shift.

-- Jay Beattie.

Huh. Just as an added data point, I've replaced the crank bearings
twice [1] in my Domane and never needed a bearing press. My bearings
pressed in by hand just fine.

[1] At least once due to a noise that turned out to come from elsewhere.

Mark J.

That is not good for a Shimao crank/bearing.

Do you mean too loose? I should clarify that it took lots of
back-and-forth, slowly rocking the bearing into place about 1 mm per
finger press, but no tools required.

Mark J.

The description Tom furnished of the standard and repair set differed
only in the "glue" used to retain the bearing in the frame.

"The Standard Kit uses VibraTite530 while the Repair Kit uses
VibraTite538. Both of these compounds secure the bearings in place
during use while allowing for simple removal and servicing by standard
means when necessary and DO NOT have any effect on your frame\u2019s
warranty whatsoever. The 530 works better in tight spots while the 538
works best with a looser fit, so please order the correct kit for the
best results."
https://www.amazon.com/Vibra-TITE-St.../dp/B008D6FCOC
https://www.amazon.com/Vibra-TITE-Ge.../dp/B008D6FCCE
--
cheers,

John B.

We are talking about a Trek BB90 setup, yes? With cartridge bearings
that rest directly on shaped carbon "shoulders" in the frame?

From Trek's "Service Information" for the 2010 Madone (I believe all
the modern Trek CF frames with BB90 have essentially the same BB
install), note especially the last two sentences:

The Madone uses a special bearing system that has no parts that
thread into the frame. Instead, the bearings are a slip-fit into
the frame. Bearings kits are available for all major brand of
cranksets: SRAM/TruVativ/Bontrager GXP, Shimano HollowTech,
Campagnolo UltraTorque, and FSA MegaExo.
Each kit includes a slightly different set of bearings, seals,
and spacers. When installing other crankset systems, follow the
manufacturer’s instructions to achieve the correct assembly and
adjustment.
Do not use a hammer or bearing press to install the bearings
into the frame. If the bearing fit is too tight, make sure the
bearing seats are clean and free of debris.

Further, "Rock “N” Roll Super Coat grease" is specified for the
bearing-to-frame contacts, as opposed to retaining compound.

There is some sort of adhesive mentioned for a Campy Ultra-torque
install, but only for Campy.

The Madone uses a special bearing system that has no parts that
thread into the frame.
Instead, the bearings are a slip-fit into the frame. However,
the Campagnolo UltraTorque system requires you to attach bearing
supports (seal seats) to the Madone’s bottom bracket shell.

The "seal seats" are installed using retaining compound. Still, no
bearing press involved, though the crank bolt that holds the two halves
of the spindle together probably draws the bearings into the frame.

So please clarify if I've misunderstood, but I believe the Trek BB90
bearings are indeed supposed to be installed tool-less and by hand.

I've got over 10k miles on the bike since the last time I changed the
bearings, and no problem (not sure if there ever was, as I said, one
bearing replacement was for a noise that ended up being elsewhere).

Mark J.

Thanks for that information Mark. All of those cranksets mentioned have 24 mm shaft diameters though the SRAM uses different size ID bearings the shafts are still 24 mm. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...F647&FORM=VIRE

I'm not seeing anything indicating that the current Trek models like the Emonda use a "slip fit" bearing. Every video shows them being pressed-in. On further Googling, Trek has had issues with BB shell wallowing and thus the availability of OS BB bearings and the use of gap fillers. My bike has been problem free. There is also talk about Trek moving to T47 or something like it.

-- Jay Beattie.


Things may have changed since the 2010 Madone service bulletin I quoted.

I have heard that some Domanes from the era of my bike came with bearing
holes/seats/whatever just a tad too big, and that Trek sold very
slightly oversize replacement kits when problems arose. I haven't
needed them.

So maybe in the years since, they've shifted to press fit rather than
slip fit. Frankly, crank options for BB90 are more limited than I would
prefer - and now I own two BB90 bikes - so the possibility of a new form
factor sounds wise to me.

Mark J.