On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 10:53:39 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 6/23/2019 8:42 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

Yes, like this anecdote. And for a lawsuit counter-anecdote, I've been representing Trek and Specialized in Oregon for over 20 years. It's like being the mythical Maytag repairman. There is not an epidemic of old CF frame failures resulting in lawsuits.

Be careful there..."Among dishwasher owners, 13 percent of Maytag
purchases required repairs, more than Bosch (7 percent), Whirlpool (8
percent), Miele (9 percent) and Kenmore (11 percent). Among
refrigerators, Maytag ranked third, behind Kenmore and Samsung while
among washing machines, it was tied for fourth with Whirlpool, behind
LG, Samsung, and Kenmore."

The Maytag repairman isn't so lonely anymore.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/09/business/media/maytag-repairmans-new-job-keeps-him-busy.html.

Yes, and in anticipation of this dopey come-back, I used the term "mythical Maytag repairman." You know exactly what I mean as does everyone in our demographic. Pah-lease.


It is true, though, that CF fails differently than steel and some internal damage is not apparent. When my Supersix was trashed in a roof rack incident, I had it inspected by Ruckus. https://ruckuscomp.com/inspection. They confirmed that it was indeed trashed, and in some areas I had not expected. So I got a new bike. I would have spent a similar amount repairing steel and getting a paint job -- particularly if I went with wet paint. Gads, nice paint is incredibly expensive these days. The moral of the story is that if you're worried about internal frame damage, have the frame inspected.

Someone buying a used CF frame is unlikely to be the kind of person that
will spent several hundred dollars on a proper inspection.

The assurance of a credible seller that a CF frame has not been crashed is probably adequate. I'm sure Lou was honest about his crash history, if any..

You can get failures in any product, and high volume products have ascertainable defect rates, generally very low with reputable manufacturers. The good news is that most bicycle failures result in warranty claims and not personal injuries. The exception is forks. Reputable manufacturers have spent lots of time and money on getting forks right -- and they police their contractors. CF forks are the standard now, even on steel and aluminum bikes. And note that steel forks are not without their problems. https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2013/Sa...-Bicycle-Forks But if CF forks are too scary, get steel. They're still available. I've been riding on CF forks since about '92 when I got first generation Kestrel forks, and I haven't looked back.

Yes, fork failures have been the most common and most likely to cause
injury. For a while Rivendell was offering a replacement program,
offering their steel forks at a discount when exchanged for a CF fork.
http://web.archive.org/web/20100801102119/http://www.rivbike.com/products/show/carbonoms-fork/50-718
"Our offer:

The fork sells for $200, and we won't have them 'till August 1. Call
800-345-3918 or email to pre-order. Or, if you send us your carbon fork
(write your name on the steerer tube, address below, along with your
contact info), we'll sell you its replacement for $115. We will
permanently remove your fork from circulation. That is the point, after
all. If you sell it on eBay, the problem is still out there."

The fork is out of stock, although Grant is over-stocked with anti-CF hysteria. It makes absolute sense if your business model is based on marketing historically correct steel bikes and accompanying canvas, wool and leather do-dads. https://barndoorcycling.wordpress.co...-mean-company/

I got into bicycling at the tail-end of Singer and Rene Herse era in the late 60s early 70s and thought those frames were precious throw-backs even then. If Grant were knocking off California Masis or De Rosas (with modern geometry and not the ridiculously short TTs of yore), then I might bite. But really, I don't want or need some boat-anchor Homer Hogfarm with 35mm tires on 650B wheels. Why would I? To go with my houndstooth wool gabardine riding jodhpurs and bowler hat?

I can get fat snow tires in and out of my CAADX no sweat, and that has big fat CF forks with disc mounts. It's a dog, too -- but has a much stiffer BB and front end than a historically correct 62-64mm steel touring frame. And its half the price of a Rivendell. Actually, the CAADX was a free replacement for a broken proto-CAADX. Gotta love the lifetime warranties.

I owned five or six custom steel frames. I also broke them. I've broken basically every frame I've owned as an adult except for a Cannondale T1000 (that will dwell with the cockroaches after the apocalypse) and my '69-70 Raleigh Pro track bike. I also didn't break the CAAD 9 I gave to my son. That, BTW, is a great riding bike.

I assume I will break a CF frame, although it has not happened yet. Knock on fiber. And my prior steel and aluminum failures were all fatigue related, which is not the usual failure mode for CF. I sometimes worry about CF steerers, but not that much. I'm careful with the compression plug torque and the stem torque on the Emonda. I wash my bikes and check for cracks or problems. I'll be dead or on a tricycle before my CF frames get that old.

-- Jay Beattie.