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What is the point of tubeless tires?



 
 
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  #101  
Old January 15th 19, 05:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default What is the point of tubeless tires?

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 4:49:19 AM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 3:41:00 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 23:40:20 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 2:23:53 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 21:52:48 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 12:42:07 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 20:34:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:
Snipped
Gads! $329.99?! Wow! No thanks. I'll stay with the FAR LESS expensive retro offerings.

Cheers

But you also get Earn 1649 Reward Points :-)


Cheers,
John B.

Right, reward points. VBG ;) However I could get 5 pairs of the $60.00 MKS pedals shown in the other link and still have money left over. Are those $329.99 pedals THAT much better?

Cheers

Come on Man! They are new.

They have a "classically inspired profile combined with modern
materials and design is ideally suited for the urban cyclist. These
pedals provide the perfect platform for whatever shoes you decide to
ride in." And! They are made in the USA! None of that cheap foreign
made stuff.

They are available in both silver and black anodized finishes and the
bronze acorn nuts add a touch of class

I'm surprised that everyone isn't buying at least two :-)


Cheers,
John B.

Hi John. It seems to me that a lot of the newer stuff for bicycles isn't so much about function or even looks but how high the cost for it can be.. LOL Is that the new criteria for bicycle stuff = high cost?

I wanted to buy a long cage rear derailleur for a touring/gravel bicycle I was building up for a friend. Just outside of town there's a guy who sells used bicycles in decent riding shape for $40 to $60. Seeing as a decent new long cage rear derailleur at any of the shops here in town cost at least $50 I decided to buy the $40 to $60 bike because then I got all those extra spare parts if I needed them for something else. A lot of the frames on the bicycles he sells are also decent cro-moly alloy ones or aluminium ones. Heck, I got one MTB from him for $20.00 that had all Shimano DEORE on it even if the groupset was an older one. I love the thumb-shifters on it because they can be set to friction as well as index and they are completely separate from the brake levers. The bike was in great shape but he hadn't checked it over yet which is why I got it for so little.

Ditto with wheels. If I or someone I know needs a new wheel I often go to the out of town guy and either get a decent wheel for $10 or so or buy an entire bike for $40.00.

Cheers


I built a couple of bike that way. There are at least two dealers here
that buy used bikes from Japan, I believe by the container load, and
re-sell them. I bought what is probably a classic, except I can't
identify the maker. The frame and forks weighed a few grams more than
a frame that I had built out of Columbus SL tubes which is one of
their lighter tubes.

The guy also had some bare unpainted road bike aluminum frames,
sloping top tube, very modern looking stuff, that he was selling cheap
but at the time I wasn't interested in aluminum so I passed on them.


Cheers,
John B.


The guy I deal with also had an older Cannondale MTB with rear dropouts that extended beyond the frame. Interesting. I figured that under really hard riding that they'd be prone to breaking off.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...7669609219192/

I wonder if Andrew could tells us if that happened enough that it's why we don't see that style anymore? I built that bike up with drop handlebars and old school external brake cable brake levers. Actually, they were suicide style brake levers but I took off the suicide levers, modified the pin that sticks out from the side and installed shift levers there.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...7669609219192/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...7669609219192/

Cheers


I noticed the Summit sticker. Local company. But not much for bike
parts, AFAIK.

- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #102  
Old January 15th 19, 07:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default What is the point of tubeless tires?

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 11:57:53 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 4:49:19 AM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 3:41:00 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 23:40:20 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 2:23:53 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 21:52:48 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 12:42:07 AM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 20:34:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:
Snipped
Gads! $329.99?! Wow! No thanks. I'll stay with the FAR LESS expensive retro offerings.

Cheers

But you also get Earn 1649 Reward Points :-)


Cheers,
John B.

Right, reward points. VBG ;) However I could get 5 pairs of the $60.00 MKS pedals shown in the other link and still have money left over. Are those $329.99 pedals THAT much better?

Cheers

Come on Man! They are new.

They have a "classically inspired profile combined with modern
materials and design is ideally suited for the urban cyclist. These
pedals provide the perfect platform for whatever shoes you decide to
ride in." And! They are made in the USA! None of that cheap foreign
made stuff.

They are available in both silver and black anodized finishes and the
bronze acorn nuts add a touch of class

I'm surprised that everyone isn't buying at least two :-)


Cheers,
John B.

Hi John. It seems to me that a lot of the newer stuff for bicycles isn't so much about function or even looks but how high the cost for it can be. LOL Is that the new criteria for bicycle stuff = high cost?

I wanted to buy a long cage rear derailleur for a touring/gravel bicycle I was building up for a friend. Just outside of town there's a guy who sells used bicycles in decent riding shape for $40 to $60. Seeing as a decent new long cage rear derailleur at any of the shops here in town cost at least $50 I decided to buy the $40 to $60 bike because then I got all those extra spare parts if I needed them for something else. A lot of the frames on the bicycles he sells are also decent cro-moly alloy ones or aluminium ones. Heck, I got one MTB from him for $20.00 that had all Shimano DEORE on it even if the groupset was an older one. I love the thumb-shifters on it because they can be set to friction as well as index and they are completely separate from the brake levers. The bike was in great shape but he hadn't checked it over yet which is why I got it for so little.

Ditto with wheels. If I or someone I know needs a new wheel I often go to the out of town guy and either get a decent wheel for $10 or so or buy an entire bike for $40.00.

Cheers

I built a couple of bike that way. There are at least two dealers here
that buy used bikes from Japan, I believe by the container load, and
re-sell them. I bought what is probably a classic, except I can't
identify the maker. The frame and forks weighed a few grams more than
a frame that I had built out of Columbus SL tubes which is one of
their lighter tubes.

The guy also had some bare unpainted road bike aluminum frames,
sloping top tube, very modern looking stuff, that he was selling cheap
but at the time I wasn't interested in aluminum so I passed on them.


Cheers,
John B.


The guy I deal with also had an older Cannondale MTB with rear dropouts that extended beyond the frame. Interesting. I figured that under really hard riding that they'd be prone to breaking off.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...7669609219192/

I wonder if Andrew could tells us if that happened enough that it's why we don't see that style anymore? I built that bike up with drop handlebars and old school external brake cable brake levers. Actually, they were suicide style brake levers but I took off the suicide levers, modified the pin that sticks out from the side and installed shift levers there.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...7669609219192/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/738325...7669609219192/

Cheers


I noticed the Summit sticker. Local company. But not much for bike
parts, AFAIK.

- Frank Krygowski


The sticker was on it when I bought it from the guy outside of town. I thought that it was a company that made bicycles but someone told me that Summit is a racing car sponsor or something to do with auto r acing.

The shifters in the place where the suicide lever used to attach work quite well.

Cheers
  #103  
Old January 15th 19, 07:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,638
Default Pins: was: What is the point of tubeless tires?

On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 13:53:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

But then it occurred to me, I really would like some brass ones. The
steel ones rust after a while. So I mentioned those.

I didn't get any. :-(


I bought the brass pins that I secure my ankles with at Walmart; I
think it was in the crafty-wafty department.

They are rather coarse, but I use them only with cheap sweat pants.

I like them mainly for the looks; under conditions that make steel
pins rust, brass would turn green, stain your clothes, and be hard to
pull out.

Count me in for the carbon-fiber safety pins -- if they come in
International Orange, they would be much easier to find when I drop
one.

Another wish list: safety pins of *any* material that say on the
package how thick they are. I'd love to have silk pins with a safety
catch on them.

("silk pins" are a thin variety of dressmaking pins. They used to be
nickel-plated brass, but are now stainless.)

As long as I can remember, "brass plated" pins have been available,
usually in the very smallest size, presumably to make them easier to
find in a box of mixed pins. When I grew up, I began to wonder how
one plates with an alloy -- brass melts too high to "hot dip" as one
does with zinc -- and it just now occurs to me to wonder how one goes
about brass plating something as cheap as a safety pin.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
  #104  
Old January 15th 19, 08:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,346
Default Pins: was: What is the point of tubeless tires?

Joy Beeson wrote:

ne plates with an alloy -- brass melts too high to "hot dip" as one
:does with zinc -- and it just now occurs to me to wonder how one goes
:about brass plating something as cheap as a safety pin.

Electroplating. You put the parts into a bath containing stuff
(cyanaide compounds historically, often less toxic stuff these days), use a
brass anode, and apply a current. Details vary, but that's used for
all sorts of thin coatings.

--
sig 71
  #105  
Old January 15th 19, 08:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Pins: was: What is the point of tubeless tires?

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 2:07:28 PM UTC-5, David Scheidt wrote:
Joy Beeson wrote:

ne plates with an alloy -- brass melts too high to "hot dip" as one
:does with zinc -- and it just now occurs to me to wonder how one goes
:about brass plating something as cheap as a safety pin.

Electroplating. You put the parts into a bath containing stuff
(cyanaide compounds historically, often less toxic stuff these days), use a
brass anode, and apply a current. Details vary, but that's used for
all sorts of thin coatings.


I'd think electroplating would have problems at the sharp end of the
pin. No? Just guessing. I never had much to do with electoplating
except for working where they nickel plated some flat stuff.

- Frank Krygowski
  #106  
Old January 15th 19, 10:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default What is the point of tubeless tires?

On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 3:18:38 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 08:56:47 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 8:07:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/13/2019 1:58 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 2:03:53 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 10:17:49 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 10:24:23 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 9:11:35 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Seriously, what is the point of these things? What problem do they solve and is it worth the extra maintenance hassles for non-racing riders?

You have to have tubeless rims. Otherwise you can use any tire you want. You can use extreme racing tires. Even pretty large punctures can seal almost instantly with the right sealing compound. No detectable air loss.

If you DO have a flat too large for the sealing compound to work which is possible, they make a device that puts a rubber plus in sealing the hole. I haven't even heard of anyone getting a hole that large. I do know one guy that picked up a carpet nail and left it in clicking on every turn before he got home. He said that when he pulled it out the tire got soft but sealed. He pumped it up and still rides it.

Besides being lighter and having a lower rolling resistance tire you also don't have to carry a flat kit on you. Frank tells us his flat his weighs 1/2 lb but mine - two innertubes, two CO2 cartridges, the filler tool and levers in a pack weights 2 lbs. This is more weight than my Look 206 delta pedals.

I have had no trouble at all with my Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires since converting to tubeless. Before I had flats so often that everyone around here runs Gatorskins which are heavy and have lousy traction.

You can run Pro4s tubeless? Hmmmm. I have a bunch of Pro4s and a tubeless ready wheel set with OE valves in a bag somewhere. Maybe I'll get some sealant and give it a whirl.

As an aside, what I don't like about tubeless ready rims and regular tires/tubes is that the tire beads practically weld themselves to the rim. It's a pain getting the tire off the rim, and they're really tight getting tires on the rim. All that is necessary if you're running tubeless but not so necessary with an ordinary tire/tube combo.

-- Jay Beattie.

I noticed that too. Annoying. Everytime you change a flat you hear the tire bead pop into place. Or not...

Lou

I'm surprised that those who want to avoid flats don't just use foam filled tires instead of these or other Slime-like concoctions.

Cheers


You could argue about 60g of inner tube vs 60g of goop, and
people do, but I have to assume you have never ridden a foam
or urethane tire.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


If you have an innertube it rotates with the wheel and needs to be accelerated or decelerated. If you have sealant it rides more or less at the bottom of the tire not requiring to be accelerated.


Are you sure? I ask because the instructions for using "Slime" is

"Once the Slime is in place, use the tool to re-insert the core. Next,
inflate the tire to the correct PSI (listed on tire sidewall) and then
spin the wheel to allow the Slime to evenly distribute throughout the
tire"


There's horses for courses I suppose but after trying these for several months I like them.



Cheers,
John B.


ALL of the tire sealants use those instructions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2OqwuhNGfg I can't even find a test of Slime it performs so badly..
  #107  
Old January 15th 19, 10:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default What is the point of tubeless tires?

On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 3:32:49 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 08:56:47 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 8:07:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/13/2019 1:58 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I'm surprised that those who want to avoid flats don't just use foam
filled tires instead of these or other Slime-like concoctions.

Cheers


You could argue about 60g of inner tube vs 60g of goop, and people do,
but I have to assume you have never ridden a foam or urethane tire.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


If you have an innertube it rotates with the wheel and needs to be
accelerated or decelerated. If you have sealant it rides more or less at
the bottom of the tire not requiring to be accelerated.


Err, even water in the tube gets spun arond and it is totally useless to
seal any leaks, so that goop has to have some viscousity to bridge and
seal a leak and that means until it gets spun around a few time, you're
riding an unbalanced wheel.

There's horses for courses I suppose but after trying these for several
months I like them.


Goop or foam filled tyres?


I really do wonder what goes on in the heads of you people. Here is a rolling resistance test for tires using sealant and it ranges from little to nothing compared to a tire with no sealant in it.

Let me stress again that the lowest rolling resistance of any tires were tubeless.
  #108  
Old January 15th 19, 10:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default What is the point of tubeless tires?

On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 3:37:00 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 14:02:22 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 11:28:06 AM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 11:56:49 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Snipped
If you have an innertube it rotates with the wheel and needs to be
accelerated or decelerated. If you have sealant it rides more or less at
the bottom of the tire not requiring to be accelerated.

Snipped

Absolute BULL****!

Cheers


Jan Heine would disagree with Tom.
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/...s-roll-faster/

Ralph - that is largely an opinion piece. (whereas most of his other "mythbuster" pieces are well founded.) Using one tire type to make your tests on isn't scientifically exacting.The lowest rolling resistance in the RR tests were with a Vittoria tubeless tire.

If you think that a tube doesn't increase rolling resistance by decreasing the tire reflex action but the lack of the tube does, or like Ridesalittle thinks that other than a small amount of frictional cohesion that the sealant doesn't stay mainly on the plain I can only refer to other tests:

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...ex-butyl-tubes

But if you look at the rolling resistance tests the differences in the same size tires at the same pressure over the same surface, the difference is so slight that it is only of interest with a TT rider in competition. And even in those cases it is no doubt purely psychological.

So really the only difference between tubeless, tube or sewups is the almost total absence of flats. If you want to say that you only have a flat once a year so it's no trouble to carry a 2 lb flat kit with you all the time that is certainly your decision. But I have a very expensive bike that has its weight increased to that of a moderately priced bike by doing so.

And having carefully tested them I can tell the difference but what the hell that matters for a sport riders is open for interpretation. I just feel that my $4,000 Time should not be the same weight as my $8,000 Colnago.

Beside, I want you to be able to pick up the Colnago with one finger and ooh and ahh!


Did you actually weigh your "flat kit"? After all a "16 gram"COI2
cartridge actually weighs 56.8 grams so two weigh 113.6 grams, an
inner tube weighs something like 100 grams (for a heavy one) and
plastic tire tools are lighter then the tube so lets say 75 grams and
the tiny little CO2 adapter, say another 50 grams for a total of ~3/4
lb.

What else are you carrying to make your "flat kit" weigh 2 pounds.

Or is this just another of your fevered fantasies?


Cheers,
John B.


To repeat myself - I have to wonder what goes on in you people's heads. Exactly how do you propose I weigh all of the components that go onto a bike without having a scale? And since you seem to be having much more serious memory problems than I do, I stated that I weighed them several times before.
  #109  
Old January 15th 19, 10:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Pins: was: What is the point of tubeless tires?

On 1/15/2019 1:07 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
Joy Beeson wrote:

ne plates with an alloy -- brass melts too high to "hot dip" as one
:does with zinc -- and it just now occurs to me to wonder how one goes
:about brass plating something as cheap as a safety pin.

Electroplating. You put the parts into a bath containing stuff
(cyanaide compounds historically, often less toxic stuff these days), use a
brass anode, and apply a current. Details vary, but that's used for
all sorts of thin coatings.


I wondere4d about that too.

We learn about classic elemental electroplating which seems
straightforward. But then with brass how do they get both
the copper and the zinc evenly distributed/deposited?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #110  
Old January 15th 19, 10:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default What is the point of tubeless tires?

On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 6:18:14 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/13/2019 6:36 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 14:02:22 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 11:28:06 AM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 11:56:49 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Snipped
If you have an innertube it rotates with the wheel and needs to be
accelerated or decelerated. If you have sealant it rides more or less at
the bottom of the tire not requiring to be accelerated.

Snipped

Absolute BULL****!

Cheers


Jan Heine would disagree with Tom.
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/...s-roll-faster/

Ralph - that is largely an opinion piece. (whereas most of his other "mythbuster" pieces are well founded.) Using one tire type to make your tests on isn't scientifically exacting.The lowest rolling resistance in the RR tests were with a Vittoria tubeless tire.

If you think that a tube doesn't increase rolling resistance by decreasing the tire reflex action but the lack of the tube does, or like Ridesalittle thinks that other than a small amount of frictional cohesion that the sealant doesn't stay mainly on the plain I can only refer to other tests:

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...ex-butyl-tubes

But if you look at the rolling resistance tests the differences in the same size tires at the same pressure over the same surface, the difference is so slight that it is only of interest with a TT rider in competition. And even in those cases it is no doubt purely psychological.

So really the only difference between tubeless, tube or sewups is the almost total absence of flats. If you want to say that you only have a flat once a year so it's no trouble to carry a 2 lb flat kit with you all the time that is certainly your decision. But I have a very expensive bike that has its weight increased to that of a moderately priced bike by doing so.

And having carefully tested them I can tell the difference but what the hell that matters for a sport riders is open for interpretation. I just feel that my $4,000 Time should not be the same weight as my $8,000 Colnago.

Beside, I want you to be able to pick up the Colnago with one finger and ooh and ahh!


Did you actually weigh your "flat kit"? After all a "16 gram"COI2
cartridge actually weighs 56.8 grams so two weigh 113.6 grams, an
inner tube weighs something like 100 grams (for a heavy one) and
plastic tire tools are lighter then the tube so lets say 75 grams and
the tiny little CO2 adapter, say another 50 grams for a total of ~3/4
lb.

What else are you carrying to make your "flat kit" weigh 2 pounds.


That's what I'm wondering.


--
- Frank Krygowski


OK, I just went down again. I measured the weight of the kit I'm carrying on my Basso. If has one spare tube a very small quick patch kit, the levers and a tool in the bag and a CO2 and filler. None of the fillers I've used are reliable but for the Reliaflate but I have one of the small CO2 heads anyway.

This kit was 1.1 lbs.

I went over and took the kit off of the Colnago. It weighed 1.2 lbs. I scratched my head and opened it up. There was only a single tube in it. With another tube it weighed 1.47 lbs. Again I scratched my head and looked again - it didn't have the ReliaFlate. Just the cartridges. I added that and it was 1.84 lbs. I looked again and the tool in it didn't have the 10 mm pedal wrench that I always carry. I exchanged the simple tool for the one that also had the 10 mm and it came in slightly over 2 lbs.

My short rides are 30 miles and 70 miles isn't unusual. I sure as hell don't know why you would leave home on a ride without the ability to fix something like a loose cable or derailleur. Or to inflate a tube with a CO2 without frost biting your palm but I am concerned about those sorts of things when I'm 40 or more miles either away from home or from a means of transportation to get home.

I've ridden flat tires for 5 miles to a Performance shop and I've walked 3 miles with my cleats on. If that is to you guy's tastes then you can have it. I intend to have 2 CO2's, the inflator, two tubes because I've had a total of five flats on one ride. A tool that will fit every allen on the bike and a quick detach bag to carry it. I even carry a small pump on the Basso for extra long rides: 100+ miles each way.

I can only imagine that you're doing what my brother does and carrying everything in your jersey pockets.
 




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