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#231
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Door zone
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jun 26, 3:55 am, Ned Mantei wrote: In article , Frank Krygowski wrote: On Jun 25, 1:29 am, James wrote: On Jun 25, 2:00 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote: I don't care what sort of brakes or levers you have, you can't stop when a door pops open immediately in front of you, especially at 40 kph. Stay out of the door zone. Dear Frank. Thank you for your concern, and I agree with you that it would be impossible to stop from 40 when a door pops open in front of you. That's when I move around it. Like I said before, I'm usually 1+m away already, and keenly watching for danger. The door zone is bigger than most people realize. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TQ7aID1jHs - Frank Krygowski Thanks for pointing out that video. I hadn't realized how large the door zone is. Eugene Sloan's "Complete book of bicycling" (appeared in ca. 1982) recommended watching for someone sitting in the driver's seat while riding along a row of parked cars. Yeah, that's one of the _many_ things I didn't like about Sloan's books. People can pop the door open even if the parked vehicle has tinted windows. Or sun glaring on the window. Or high seatbacks. Or a slouching occupant... etc. - Frank Krygowski Yes, to all that. Sloan's is also where I learned that, and I'm pretty sure it was pre-1982, more like '75 or thereabouts. We ask drivers to give us 3 feet when they pass, and implicitly trust and accept that they will. Why should doors on parked cars be so different? For that matter, cars pull away from the curb from time to time. A 5' space between parked cars and same way bicycle and car traffic is not sufficient for all happenstance, while also being unreasonably large, not to mention unlikely anytime soon where I ride. In 1975 when I learned to drive in a Chicago public highschool, we were taught to check the sideview mirrors before opening the car door. This was not so much for bicyclist safety, but for our own safety and survival. The more likely incursion is with a car in the adjacent travel lane. The law places responsibility for injury and damage on the driver of the parked car. My point being, yes, car doors can and do open on passing bicyclists. Yes, also, those doors can kill or cause severe injury to the cyclist. At the same time, cyclists can be and are killed in other ways due to driver error. I lose track of who says and feels what, regarding safety. Some feel the hats are inadequate. Some think the roads and paths are not safe for cycling. Others seem to feel it's a safe activity. |
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#232
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Door zone
On Jun 26, 5:31*pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:
I lose track of who says and feels what, regarding safety. Some feel the hats are inadequate. Some think the roads and paths are not safe for cycling. Others seem to feel it's a safe activity. I feel cycling's a safe activity, and I've collected lots of data that confirms that. So safe that it doesn't matter whether the hats are adequate or not - which they aren't. - Frank Krygowski |
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Grant Petersen / Rivendell on carbon forks
On Jun 27, 3:41*am, Michael Press wrote:
In article , *James wrote: On Jun 26, 3:58*am, Michael Press wrote: In article , *James wrote: On Jun 25, 6:09*pm, Michael Press wrote: Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks. It is not difficult to be in the right gear ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers. Sorry I don't agree, Michael. *IMHO, it is up to the individual to decide what they find most appropriate. *Personally I find the hoods most appropriate. *I can brake, change gears and bunny hop wet tram tracks without moving my hands. The hoods do not offer best control of the bicycle. This discussion is about riding in heavy traffic where a rider needs best control. We differ on this opinion. *And for the record, I've never had a hand come off the hoods and I know every pot hole by name. Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to use them and we managed? I do not understand the question. A positive foot to pedal attachment helps a rider control the bicycle, making it a boon in heavy traffic. Having a foot slip off the pedal in heavy traffic is dangerous. So positive is the cleat and toe strap combination, if secured properly, that if you have to stop in a hurry, you will not get to your toe strap loose in time, and unless you are very good at performing a track stand, or there's something for you to hold on to, you will fall off. This remark has nothing to do with what I said, except that it also discusses foot-pedal attachment. I still do not understand your question "Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to use them and we managed?" Maybe I miss understood what you wrote (below), but you seem to be insistent that riding in the drops is the safest place for ones hands, and that changing gear can happen when it's safe to do so, and that therefore Ergo/STI levers offer no safety advantage, and that you also must believe down tube shifters make no difference to safety compared with STI/Ergo levers. On Jun 25, 6:09 pm, Michael Press wrote: Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks. It is not difficult to be in the right gear ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers. Now as I've said, I disagree and I've stated why. I believe the hoods are safer, because I can brake, change gear and bunny hop a wet tram line from the one position. I wonder whether you feel that the combination of toe straps and cleats are just as safe as clip less pedals, given that you should be able to loosen the toe strap ahead of time perhaps, in the event of an emergency stop? I'm saying, in the same way as you feel that STI/Ergo levers are not a safety advantage, do you also believe that clip less pedals are not a safety advantage? Personally, I find clip less pedals are the bees knees. No more numb toes or squashed feet, and I can become attached and disengaged from the pedals at will. James. |
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Grant Petersen / Rivendell on carbon forks
On Jun 27, 3:08*pm, James wrote:
On Jun 27, 3:41*am, Michael Press wrote: In article , *James wrote: On Jun 26, 3:58*am, Michael Press wrote: In article , *James wrote: On Jun 25, 6:09*pm, Michael Press wrote: Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks. It is not difficult to be in the right gear ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers. Sorry I don't agree, Michael. *IMHO, it is up to the individual to decide what they find most appropriate. *Personally I find the hoods most appropriate. *I can brake, change gears and bunny hop wet tram tracks without moving my hands. The hoods do not offer best control of the bicycle. This discussion is about riding in heavy traffic where a rider needs best control. We differ on this opinion. *And for the record, I've never had a hand come off the hoods and I know every pot hole by name. Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to use them and we managed? I do not understand the question. A positive foot to pedal attachment helps a rider control the bicycle, making it a boon in heavy traffic. Having a foot slip off the pedal in heavy traffic is dangerous. So positive is the cleat and toe strap combination, if secured properly, that if you have to stop in a hurry, you will not get to your toe strap loose in time, and unless you are very good at performing a track stand, or there's something for you to hold on to, you will fall off. This remark has nothing to do with what I said, except that it also discusses foot-pedal attachment. I still do not understand your question "Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to use them and we managed?" Maybe I miss understood what you wrote (below), but you seem to be insistent that riding in the drops is the safest place for ones hands, and that changing gear can happen when it's safe to do so, and that therefore Ergo/STI levers offer no safety advantage, and that you also must believe down tube shifters make no difference to safety compared with STI/Ergo levers. On Jun 25, 6:09 pm, Michael Press wrote: Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks. It is not difficult to be in the right gear ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers. Now as I've said, I disagree and I've stated why. *I believe the hoods are safer, because I can brake, change gear and bunny hop a wet tram line from the one position. I wonder whether you feel that the combination of toe straps and cleats are just as safe as clip less pedals, given that you should be able to loosen the toe strap ahead of time perhaps, in the event of an emergency stop? I'm saying, in the same way as you feel that STI/Ergo levers are not a safety advantage, do you also believe that clip less pedals are not a safety advantage? Personally, I find clip less pedals are the bees knees. *No more numb toes or squashed feet, and I can become attached and disengaged from the pedals at will. Hey James, why stop there?! You obviously fail to understand the *NEED* for threaded headset and quill stem! After all, don't you adjust your stem up and down depending on the time of year and whether you are in shape or not?! If not, you better get with it! Further, what kind of wheels are you using? You ought to be using traditional 32 or better yet 36 hole spoke wheels with tubular tires! Further, those wheels better be "tied and soldered" as you don't want to break a spoke racing up alpe d'huez! Finally, I presume you carry a full size frame pump on your bike and not one of those "sissy" mini-pump thingies. We don't want to hear how you couldn't fix a flat because your pump was too small to pump your tires up to the minimum pressure of at least 120psi!!!! Good Luck! |
#235
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Grant Petersen / Rivendell on carbon forks
In article
, James wrote: [...] Maybe I miss understood what you wrote (below), but you seem to be insistent that riding in the drops is the safest place for ones hands, and that changing gear can happen when it's safe to do so, and that therefore Ergo/STI levers offer no safety advantage, and that you also must believe down tube shifters make no difference to safety compared with STI/Ergo levers. Exactly. I prefer to rely on foresight and riding in the hooks for safety in heavy traffic. On Jun 25, 6:09 pm, Michael Press wrote: Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks. It is not difficult to be in the right gear ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers. Now as I've said, I disagree and I've stated why. I believe the hoods are safer, because I can brake, change gear and bunny hop a wet tram line from the one position. I still do not believe riding on the hoods is safer, regardless of the advantages you gain. Sure I ride on the hoods and tops and bends in traffic, but not when it starts to get thick. I wonder whether you feel that the combination of toe straps and cleats are just as safe as clip less pedals, given that you should be able to loosen the toe strap ahead of time perhaps, in the event of an emergency stop? Cleats and toe straps do not work well in heavy traffic. I never rode them in traffic. I'm saying, in the same way as you feel that STI/Ergo levers are not a safety advantage, do you also believe that clip less pedals are not a safety advantage? Insofar as cleats and toe straps are only for experts. I road toe straps without cleats in traffic, before changing to click in shoe retention. Personally, I find clip less pedals are the bees knees. No more numb toes or squashed feet, and I can become attached and disengaged from the pedals at will. I prefer click in pedals too. -- Michael Press |
#236
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Grant Petersen / Rivendell on carbon forks
On Jun 28, 10:14*am, bfd wrote:
On Jun 27, 3:08*pm, James wrote: On Jun 27, 3:41*am, Michael Press wrote: In article , *James wrote: On Jun 26, 3:58*am, Michael Press wrote: In article , *James wrote: On Jun 25, 6:09*pm, Michael Press wrote: Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks. It is not difficult to be in the right gear ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers. Sorry I don't agree, Michael. *IMHO, it is up to the individual to decide what they find most appropriate. *Personally I find the hoods most appropriate. *I can brake, change gears and bunny hop wet tram tracks without moving my hands. The hoods do not offer best control of the bicycle. This discussion is about riding in heavy traffic where a rider needs best control. We differ on this opinion. *And for the record, I've never had a hand come off the hoods and I know every pot hole by name. Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to use them and we managed? I do not understand the question. A positive foot to pedal attachment helps a rider control the bicycle, making it a boon in heavy traffic. Having a foot slip off the pedal in heavy traffic is dangerous. So positive is the cleat and toe strap combination, if secured properly, that if you have to stop in a hurry, you will not get to your toe strap loose in time, and unless you are very good at performing a track stand, or there's something for you to hold on to, you will fall off. This remark has nothing to do with what I said, except that it also discusses foot-pedal attachment. I still do not understand your question "Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to use them and we managed?" Maybe I miss understood what you wrote (below), but you seem to be insistent that riding in the drops is the safest place for ones hands, and that changing gear can happen when it's safe to do so, and that therefore Ergo/STI levers offer no safety advantage, and that you also must believe down tube shifters make no difference to safety compared with STI/Ergo levers. On Jun 25, 6:09 pm, Michael Press wrote: Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks. It is not difficult to be in the right gear ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers. Now as I've said, I disagree and I've stated why. *I believe the hoods are safer, because I can brake, change gear and bunny hop a wet tram line from the one position. I wonder whether you feel that the combination of toe straps and cleats are just as safe as clip less pedals, given that you should be able to loosen the toe strap ahead of time perhaps, in the event of an emergency stop? I'm saying, in the same way as you feel that STI/Ergo levers are not a safety advantage, do you also believe that clip less pedals are not a safety advantage? Personally, I find clip less pedals are the bees knees. *No more numb toes or squashed feet, and I can become attached and disengaged from the pedals at will. Hey James, why stop there?! You obviously fail to understand the *NEED* for threaded headset and quill stem! After all, don't you adjust your stem up and down depending on the time of year and whether you are in shape or not?! If not, you better get with it! Further, what kind of wheels are you using? You ought to be using traditional 32 or better yet 36 hole spoke wheels with tubular tires! Further, those wheels better be "tied and soldered" as you don't want to break a spoke racing up alpe d'huez! Finally, I presume you carry a full size frame pump on your bike and not one of those "sissy" mini-pump thingies. We don't want to hear how you couldn't fix a flat because your pump was too small to pump your tires up to the minimum pressure of at least 120psi!!!! Good Luck!- Hide quoted text - It's not really the same old argument regarding new versus old. James was arguing that STI/Ergo was safer in traffic -- which is a really hard claim to prove (although it may be true). I was waiting for Frank to cite a bunch of reports showing zero decline in injury rate when Australian cyclists were forced to use brifters. I guess Big Brifter has not tried to pass any MBLs, so we wont see those reports any time soon. -- Jay Beattie. |
#237
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Grant Petersen / Rivendell on carbon forks
On Jun 28, 2:43*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jun 28, 10:14*am, bfd wrote: On Jun 27, 3:08*pm, James wrote: On Jun 27, 3:41*am, Michael Press wrote: In article , *James wrote: On Jun 26, 3:58*am, Michael Press wrote: In article , *James wrote: On Jun 25, 6:09*pm, Michael Press wrote: Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks. It is not difficult to be in the right gear ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers. Sorry I don't agree, Michael. *IMHO, it is up to the individual to decide what they find most appropriate. *Personally I find the hoods most appropriate. *I can brake, change gears and bunny hop wet tram tracks without moving my hands. The hoods do not offer best control of the bicycle. This discussion is about riding in heavy traffic where a rider needs best control. We differ on this opinion. *And for the record, I've never had a hand come off the hoods and I know every pot hole by name. Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to use them and we managed? I do not understand the question. A positive foot to pedal attachment helps a rider control the bicycle, making it a boon in heavy traffic. Having a foot slip off the pedal in heavy traffic is dangerous. So positive is the cleat and toe strap combination, if secured properly, that if you have to stop in a hurry, you will not get to your toe strap loose in time, and unless you are very good at performing a track stand, or there's something for you to hold on to, you will fall off. This remark has nothing to do with what I said, except that it also discusses foot-pedal attachment. I still do not understand your question "Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to use them and we managed?" Maybe I miss understood what you wrote (below), but you seem to be insistent that riding in the drops is the safest place for ones hands, and that changing gear can happen when it's safe to do so, and that therefore Ergo/STI levers offer no safety advantage, and that you also must believe down tube shifters make no difference to safety compared with STI/Ergo levers. On Jun 25, 6:09 pm, Michael Press wrote: Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks. It is not difficult to be in the right gear ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers. Now as I've said, I disagree and I've stated why. *I believe the hoods are safer, because I can brake, change gear and bunny hop a wet tram line from the one position. I wonder whether you feel that the combination of toe straps and cleats are just as safe as clip less pedals, given that you should be able to loosen the toe strap ahead of time perhaps, in the event of an emergency stop? I'm saying, in the same way as you feel that STI/Ergo levers are not a safety advantage, do you also believe that clip less pedals are not a safety advantage? Personally, I find clip less pedals are the bees knees. *No more numb toes or squashed feet, and I can become attached and disengaged from the pedals at will. Hey James, why stop there?! You obviously fail to understand the *NEED* for threaded headset and quill stem! After all, don't you adjust your stem up and down depending on the time of year and whether you are in shape or not?! If not, you better get with it! Further, what kind of wheels are you using? You ought to be using traditional 32 or better yet 36 hole spoke wheels with tubular tires! Further, those wheels better be "tied and soldered" as you don't want to break a spoke racing up alpe d'huez! Finally, I presume you carry a full size frame pump on your bike and not one of those "sissy" mini-pump thingies. We don't want to hear how you couldn't fix a flat because your pump was too small to pump your tires up to the minimum pressure of at least 120psi!!!! Good Luck!- Hide quoted text - It's not really the same old argument regarding new versus old. *James was arguing that STI/Ergo was safer in traffic -- which is a really hard claim to prove (although it may be true). * I was waiting for Frank to cite a bunch of reports showing zero decline in injury rate when Australian cyclists were forced to use brifters. I guess Big Brifter has not tried to pass any MBLs, so we wont see those reports any time soon. -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text - Yeah, I don't know if there is anyway to prove which way is "safer." I hink it comes down to riding styles. If riding on the hoods is what works for you, and your hand doesn't bounce off the hoods on a big bump, then go for it. On the other hand, if you like riding "on the hooks," and your bike is set up so that riding that way is comfortable, most riders today have their bars too low for that, then do it! On the other hand, Campy new ergo shifters are larger and provide a nice place to grip the hoods, so that may be the way to go. Ride the different levers and find what's comfortable for you. Then get out and ride! Good Luck! |
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Grant Petersen / Rivendell on carbon forks
On Jun 29, 3:14*am, bfd wrote:
On Jun 27, 3:08*pm, James wrote: On Jun 27, 3:41*am, Michael Press wrote: In article , *James wrote: On Jun 26, 3:58*am, Michael Press wrote: In article , *James wrote: On Jun 25, 6:09*pm, Michael Press wrote: Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks. It is not difficult to be in the right gear ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers. Sorry I don't agree, Michael. *IMHO, it is up to the individual to decide what they find most appropriate. *Personally I find the hoods most appropriate. *I can brake, change gears and bunny hop wet tram tracks without moving my hands. The hoods do not offer best control of the bicycle. This discussion is about riding in heavy traffic where a rider needs best control. We differ on this opinion. *And for the record, I've never had a hand come off the hoods and I know every pot hole by name. Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to use them and we managed? I do not understand the question. A positive foot to pedal attachment helps a rider control the bicycle, making it a boon in heavy traffic. Having a foot slip off the pedal in heavy traffic is dangerous. So positive is the cleat and toe strap combination, if secured properly, that if you have to stop in a hurry, you will not get to your toe strap loose in time, and unless you are very good at performing a track stand, or there's something for you to hold on to, you will fall off. This remark has nothing to do with what I said, except that it also discusses foot-pedal attachment. I still do not understand your question "Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to use them and we managed?" Maybe I miss understood what you wrote (below), but you seem to be insistent that riding in the drops is the safest place for ones hands, and that changing gear can happen when it's safe to do so, and that therefore Ergo/STI levers offer no safety advantage, and that you also must believe down tube shifters make no difference to safety compared with STI/Ergo levers. On Jun 25, 6:09 pm, Michael Press wrote: Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks. It is not difficult to be in the right gear ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers. Now as I've said, I disagree and I've stated why. *I believe the hoods are safer, because I can brake, change gear and bunny hop a wet tram line from the one position. I wonder whether you feel that the combination of toe straps and cleats are just as safe as clip less pedals, given that you should be able to loosen the toe strap ahead of time perhaps, in the event of an emergency stop? I'm saying, in the same way as you feel that STI/Ergo levers are not a safety advantage, do you also believe that clip less pedals are not a safety advantage? Personally, I find clip less pedals are the bees knees. *No more numb toes or squashed feet, and I can become attached and disengaged from the pedals at will. Hey James, why stop there?! You obviously fail to understand the *NEED* for threaded headset and quill stem! After all, don't you adjust your stem up and down depending on the time of year and whether you are in shape or not?! If not, you better get with it! Further, what kind of wheels are you using? You ought to be using traditional 32 or better yet 36 hole spoke wheels with tubular tires! Further, those wheels better be "tied and soldered" as you don't want to break a spoke racing up alpe d'huez! Finally, I presume you carry a full size frame pump on your bike and not one of those "sissy" mini-pump thingies. We don't want to hear how you couldn't fix a flat because your pump was too small to pump your tires up to the minimum pressure of at least 120psi!!!! Good Luck! I have no idea where that came from. JS. |
#239
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Door zone
On 6/26/10 9:55 AM, Ned Mantei wrote:
In article , Frank wrote: On Jun 25, 1:29 am, wrote: On Jun 25, 2:00 pm, Frank wrote: I don't care what sort of brakes or levers you have, you can't stop when a door pops open immediately in front of you, especially at 40 kph. Stay out of the door zone. Dear Frank. Thank you for your concern, and I agree with you that it would be impossible to stop from 40 when a door pops open in front of you. That's when I move around it. Like I said before, I'm usually 1+m away already, and keenly watching for danger. The door zone is bigger than most people realize. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TQ7aID1jHs - Frank Krygowski Thanks for pointing out that video. I hadn't realized how large the door zone is. Eugene Sloan's "Complete book of bicycling" (appeared in ca. 1982) recommended watching for someone sitting in the driver's seat while riding along a row of parked cars. I try to do this, and also ride maybe 20 km/hr rather than 40. Still, last year my luggage rack was scraped when someone opened the *passenger* door of a car parked facing the wrong way in the street. Looking in the car's side mirror is a good way to see if someone is sitting in the driver's seat. -- PoZdR ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++ "A properly shaped leather saddle is an excellent choice for the high-mileage rider who doesn't mind the fact that it is a bit heavier than a plastic saddle." Sheldon Brown: 1944 - 2008 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++ |
#240
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Door zone
"Coaster" wrote in message ... On 6/26/10 9:55 AM, Ned Mantei wrote: In article , Frank wrote: On Jun 25, 1:29 am, wrote: On Jun 25, 2:00 pm, Frank wrote: I don't care what sort of brakes or levers you have, you can't stop when a door pops open immediately in front of you, especially at 40 kph. Stay out of the door zone. Dear Frank. Thank you for your concern, and I agree with you that it would be impossible to stop from 40 when a door pops open in front of you. That's when I move around it. Like I said before, I'm usually 1+m away already, and keenly watching for danger. The door zone is bigger than most people realize. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TQ7aID1jHs - Frank Krygowski Thanks for pointing out that video. I hadn't realized how large the door zone is. Eugene Sloan's "Complete book of bicycling" (appeared in ca. 1982) recommended watching for someone sitting in the driver's seat while riding along a row of parked cars. I try to do this, and also ride maybe 20 km/hr rather than 40. Still, last year my luggage rack was scraped when someone opened the *passenger* door of a car parked facing the wrong way in the street. Looking in the car's side mirror is a good way to see if someone is sitting in the driver's seat. I find the windows are mostly tinted these days and I can't see anything. Regardless, placing yourself there makes you most visible in case the driver happens to bother to check his sideview mirror. |
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