Oh well, there goes the honey

Soaked my honey-coloured Brooks B73 and matching grips in half a litre
of best quality neatsfoot oil a la Sheldon Brown. Both instant went
dark brown. My wife thinks the dark brown suits the British Racing
Green with gold coachlines on my bike better than the pale tan Brooks
calls "honey".

The grips can wait to be fitted when they won't spread that stuff over
everything -- it is hell to get neatsfoot oil *off* anything once it
is on it.

But I rode out a while on the B73, which I bought on reviews and the
nostalgic memory of the same saddle on Raleigh roadsters in my youth
-- or at least Sheldon's memory. The three coil springs of the seat
compliment my Big Apple tyres, and between the tyres and the springs
the few irregularities I found to take at speed were reduced in the
same way as the most controlled suspension seatpost I own. The Brooks
B73 is thus comfortable before the leather even acquires compliance
with my anatomy. Where is where we came in: a fellow on the net said
the B73 is the most comfortable of the several Brooks saddles he owns.

I can however imagine that racers (modern ones -- the B73 started life
as a *racing* saddle) and self-declared "efficiency experts" would be
horrified at the amount of sideways movement the front coil spring
permits when you push your hand against it, far more than downwards
movement of the seat unless you press really very hard. However, on
the bike and riding fast on a curvy lane I didn't notice any lack of
lateral control, though admittedly I've just come from five years on
the hornless Cheeko90 so what would I care about lateral control... I
think it is an irrelevance, a post facto excuse for the horn.

All in all, first impressions of the Brooks B73 are favourable. We'll
see what I think if I manage to get in the 22km ride I'm planning
tomorrow if the weather holds.

Andre Jute
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich.pdf

On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, Andre Jute wrote:
Soaked my honey-coloured Brooks B73 and matching grips in half a litre
of best quality neatsfoot oil.

That would be idiotic. Enjoy your ruined saddle.

landotter wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:

Soaked my honey-coloured Brooks B73 and matching grips in half a litre
of best quality neatsfoot oil.

That would be idiotic. Enjoy your ruined saddle.

Idiotic? Depends on how soft you like your Brooks and how long you
need it to last. If you like your saddle squishy and don't mind
getting a new one every several years (and you are willing to lace up
the skirt so the saddle keeps its shape), then it's appropriate. I
don't use any kind of liquid oil on my own Brooks and Lepper
saddles.

I prefer Obenauf's LP and have used it for many years now. Over time,
I developed the impression that Proofide had been needlessly
stretching my saddle tops.

Chalo

On Mar 10, 7:31*pm, landotter wrote:
On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, Andre Jute wrote:

Soaked my honey-coloured Brooks B73 and matching grips in half a litre
of best quality neatsfoot oil.

That would be idiotic. Enjoy your ruined saddle.

Don't panic, Ott. The Brooks saddle only has to last me another thirty
years or so, probably less than a 100K miles. As Sheldon pointed out,
the guy who to general outrage soaked his Brooks saddles in motor oil
had the misfortune to wear out one at 300K miles. Yeah, he was an
idiot, just like me, he only got 300,000 miles out of a Brooks saddle.

Wise up, man. Not everything you hear on the corner of Myth Avenue and
Misinformation Boulevard (aka RBT) is the truth. Even if you're right,
who cares? I'll just mailorder another saddle, and next time I'll know
to Proofide it instead. Whoever told you experience is a free lunch
was huckster.

In any event, I got the method of soaking the saddle in neatsfoot oil
from the sainted Sheldon's netsite. I hope you're not traducing
Sheldon's memory by suggesting that he was less than infallible.

Andre Jute
Smart tack

Andre Jute wrote:

My wife thinks the dark brown suits the British Racing
Green with gold coachlines on my bike better than the pale tan Brooks
calls "honey".

That's gay

"Still Just Me" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:14:40 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Mar 10, 7:31 pm, landotter wrote:
On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, Andre Jute wrote:

Soaked my honey-coloured Brooks B73 and matching grips in half a
litre
of best quality neatsfoot oil.

That would be idiotic. Enjoy your ruined saddle.

Don't panic, Ott. The Brooks saddle only has to last me another thirty
years or so, probably less than a 100K miles. As Sheldon pointed out,
the guy who to general outrage soaked his Brooks saddles in motor oil
had the misfortune to wear out one at 300K miles. Yeah, he was an
idiot, just like me, he only got 300,000 miles out of a Brooks saddle.

Wise up, man. Not everything you hear on the corner of Myth Avenue and
Misinformation Boulevard (aka RBT) is the truth. Even if you're right,
who cares? I'll just mailorder another saddle, and next time I'll know
to Proofide it instead. Whoever told you experience is a free lunch
was huckster.

In any event, I got the method of soaking the saddle in neatsfoot oil
from the sainted Sheldon's netsite. I hope you're not traducing
Sheldon's memory by suggesting that he was less than infallible.

Ditto. My neatsfoot lubed saddle is 35 years old and going strong.

Just because Brooks marketing and sales tells you that you need to buy
a pricy can of Proofhyde from them doesn't make it true.

I always thought neat's-foot breaks down leather very fast, to a mush.
Plus its sticky.
To soften up leather, its recommended to use lanolin.

After all your not sitting on a baseball glove.


Cheers

On Mar 10, 7:51*pm, Chalo wrote:
landotter wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:

Soaked my honey-coloured Brooks B73 and matching grips in half a litre
of best quality neatsfoot oil.

That would be idiotic. Enjoy your ruined saddle.

Idiotic? *

Landotter seems to think a Brooks saddle is an object of veneration.
He overlooks that I am merely going to rest my butt on it, preferably
comfortably. But his passion has caused you to raise a whole series of
questions about a Brooks saddle worth thinking about.

Depends on how soft you like your Brooks

Seems to me, from my reading rather than any relevant experience, that
the less you ride, both in total annually and per characteristic
individual ride, the softer you want your saddle. I ride something
over 2000 miles a year and a characteristic ride is five miles, though
I hope in a good summer to do a 16 mile ride several times a week. So
I want mine pretty soft, and it is easy to imagine people what want
their saddles softer still.

and how long you
need it to last. *

Leather is a living, breathing material. I do not see that treating it
kindly shortens its life, whatever the marketers of Proofide might say
in the light of their own commercial motivation. I have all my life
known people with centuries more leather saddle experience than Brooks
will ever have. Every polo player does: I've played from saddles that
were centuries old, and had been treated with neatsfoot oil all that
time.

and how long you
need it to last.

Specifically I reckon that I might start thinking about giving up
cycling around 93. That's thirty years away. I have no problem
believing my saddle will last that long, soaked through in neatsfoot
oil to protect it from the pervading damp. With a thin layer of
Proofide on it, I doubt whether it will truly be protected against the
damp. In the true words of Captain Butch Roberts, "Ireland is a place
so damp that if you throw your underjocks into the corner in the
evening, in the morning you can harvest enough mushrooms for
breakfast."

If you like your saddle squishy

Damn right I do. The more upright you sit, the softer your saddle
should be. The ones who need hard saddles and precise location are
power athletes. There's a spectrum here and by every indicator I'm at
the soft end, as that Swede would have discovered if he put his mind
rather than his passions in gear before he spouted off like a geyser.

and don't mind
getting a new one every several years

A Brooks was at the cheap end of the saddles I considered, and if it
lasts as little as seven years, it will be the cheapest saddle I've
ever owned. However, the main point about the longevity of a Brooks
isn't the economy but that you avoid the pain of breaking in a new
one. By that logic, you want to treat your Brooks in a manner that
will see you out. See above.

(and you are willing to lace up
the skirt so the saddle keeps its shape),

That's really very little maintenance for a lot of comfort, if the
Brooks proselytizers are right, and even more comfort, if I (after
Sheldon) turn out to be right to soak it in neatsfoot oil.

But let's look at the problem logically. What is the opportunity cost
of not going the fast Sheldon way, of using Proofide for a slow
breakin: why, in the first instance the likelihood is that I lose
patience and throw the Brooks saddle off and get another Cheeko 90 of
fond memory. In short, I will have wasted every penny I spent on the
Brooks saddle, the saddle cover, the matching Brooks leather grips,
the care kit including Proofide, and carriage. That's a much bigger
loss than knocking a few years off the life of the saddle (if
Landotter is right, of which there is no proof but a lot of contrary
indications) after it ceases to matter to me. Profit and loss
extracted, balance sheet drawn, and as always logic triumphs.

then it's appropriate.

It's my bum, my money, my time. Instead of abusing me, Landotter
should congratulate me for risking my bum, money and time to
experiment and report on RBT. See the "tech" in rec.bicycle.tech,
Landotter? Technicians shouldn't forget that they're the handmaidens
of physics, a science that depends on experiment as much as on logic.

*I
don't use any kind of liquid oil on my own Brooks and Lepper
saddles.

Do you find the Leppers satisfactory? I liked the chunky styling of
the rails on some of the more modern ones but was put off by a German
woman who wanted one but collected a lot of stories about recent
Lepper saddles suffering a lack of quality control, having to be
returned.

I prefer Obenauf's LP and have used it for many years now.

Obenauf's is one good answer to those who say cottage industry doesn't
flourish in the bigger-is-better mentality in the US. All those big
firms were once cottage industries; check the origins of the men whose
names the firms bear.

*Over time,
I developed the impression that Proofide had been needlessly
stretching my saddle tops.

On the assumption that the 25min soak in neatsfoot oil will be enough
to ensure my saddle breaking in within say, 200m, I intend from now on
to use Proofide to protect the upper surface. The reasoning is that
the wax and fat (tallow) in Proofide will provide a slick surface off
which the inevitable drops of rain will run freely.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html

On Mar 10, 9:29 pm, Still Just Me
wrote:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:14:40 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute



wrote:
On Mar 10, 7:31 pm, landotter wrote:
On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, Andre Jute wrote:

Soaked my honey-coloured Brooks B73 and matching grips in half a litre
of best quality neatsfoot oil.

That would be idiotic. Enjoy your ruined saddle.

Don't panic, Ott. The Brooks saddle only has to last me another thirty
years or so, probably less than a 100K miles. As Sheldon pointed out,
the guy who to general outrage soaked his Brooks saddles in motor oil
had the misfortune to wear out one at 300K miles. Yeah, he was an
idiot, just like me, he only got 300,000 miles out of a Brooks saddle.

Wise up, man. Not everything you hear on the corner of Myth Avenue and
Misinformation Boulevard (aka RBT) is the truth. Even if you're right,
who cares? I'll just mailorder another saddle, and next time I'll know
to Proofide it instead. Whoever told you experience is a free lunch
was huckster.

In any event, I got the method of soaking the saddle in neatsfoot oil
from the sainted Sheldon's netsite. I hope you're not traducing
Sheldon's memory by suggesting that he was less than infallible.

Ditto. My neatsfoot lubed saddle is 35 years old and going strong.

I'm glad to hear it. 35 years is just what I need! Mind you, on his
100th birthday, my great-grandfather took me for a 30 mile walk
through the vineyards, so perhaps my saddle had better make it a bit
longer...

Just because Brooks marketing and sales tells you that you need to buy
a pricy can of Proofhyde from them doesn't make it true.

"Can" of Proofide? Unfortunately not. It's a tiny flat tin about an
inch and a bit across, 40g, for a higher price than half a litre of
neatsfoot oil that has been good enough for the saddles of Her
Majesty's Household Cavalry for more than two centuries. The
photographs of the Proofide tin always make it seem much, much
bigger... -- AJ

On Mar 10, 11:52*pm, wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
My wife thinks the dark brown suits the British Racing
Green with gold coachlines on my bike better than the pale tan Brooks
calls "honey".

That's gay

My saddle took a bath in neatsfoot oil and consequently had a sex
change. It is now a deep dark brown that leaves hairy footprints. --
Andre Jute

On Mar 11, 12:32*am, "Martin Riddle" wrote:
"Still Just Me" wrote in messagenews:2qmdr4tm49hpn5tj5juih5fh1dqnh16svt@4ax .com...



On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:14:40 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Mar 10, 7:31 pm, landotter wrote:
On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, Andre Jute wrote:

Soaked my honey-coloured Brooks B73 and matching grips in half a
litre
of best quality neatsfoot oil.

That would be idiotic. Enjoy your ruined saddle.

Don't panic, Ott. The Brooks saddle only has to last me another thirty
years or so, probably less than a 100K miles. As Sheldon pointed out,
the guy who to general outrage soaked his Brooks saddles in motor oil
had the misfortune to wear out one at 300K miles. Yeah, he was an
idiot, just like me, he only got 300,000 miles out of a Brooks saddle.

Wise up, man. Not everything you hear on the corner of Myth Avenue and
Misinformation Boulevard (aka RBT) is the truth. Even if you're right,
who cares? I'll just mailorder another saddle, and next time I'll know
to Proofide it instead. Whoever told you experience is a free lunch
was huckster.

In any event, I got the method of soaking the saddle in neatsfoot oil
from the sainted Sheldon's netsite. I hope you're not traducing
Sheldon's memory by suggesting that he was less than infallible.

Ditto. My neatsfoot lubed saddle is 35 years old and going strong.

Just because Brooks marketing and sales tells you that you need to buy
a pricy can of Proofhyde from them doesn't make it true.

I always thought neat's-foot breaks down leather very fast, to a mush.

You're mistaken. Neatsfoot oil has been used for centuries to protect
and restore leather, the very opposite of turning it into a mush.

Plus its sticky.

If you mean that it is hard to remove, that's the point. Unless it
sticks, it offers no protection against water, the number enemy of a
leather saddle.

I removed the neatsfoot spill from the kitchen counter (where I worked
because I used a baking tray as a base -- better to start in a
workroom or the garage!) and floor by pouring on boiling water.

To soften up leather, its recommended to use lanolin.

After all your not sitting on a baseball glove.

Whether you'd want to would depend on whose hand is inside the
baseball glove. (Think proctologist v. your wife or girlfriend.)

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information for the tube audio
constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
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