Titanium as a frame material

Years ago, Titanium seemed all the rage, but every time I see a pro
team's bikes described, they are made of carbon fiber. What happened
to Titanium? I know there are Titanium bikes but no pro team seesm to
use them. I thought that Titanium was able to be light, stiff, and
dampen road vibration well. Shouldn't that make for a good frame?

On Aug 21, 10:07*pm, OccasionalFlyer wrote:
* *Years ago, Titanium seemed all the rage, but every time I see a pro
team's bikes described, they are made of carbon fiber. *What happened
to Titanium? *I know there are Titanium bikes but no pro team seesm to
use them. * I thought that Titanium was able to be light, stiff, and
dampen road vibration well. *Shouldn't that make for a good frame?

Yes. But CF is lighter and/or stiffer. It allows for easy molding into
complex shapes, too, which is useful in the aero-frame era we live in.
There's also more subtle tricks you can pull with CF that are best
summarized as the move from using CF as "black aluminum" (look up that
phrase) to specifically CF-oriented shapes and layups. CF is also
getting cheaper and cheaper as the Chinese and Taiwanese continue to
refine and commoditize the stuff, and not just for bike frames.

Ti is still a great frame material, arguably the best metal to build
with, except for the material cost and certain difficulties in
machining and welding. Mark Hickey, once a regular contributor to
rec.bicycles.tech, now sanely offline, has an active business building
mid-range Ti frames, both off-the-rack and bespoke, at Habanero
Cycles.

In the low end of the market, aluminum is an excellent performer that
can do most of what Ti can, only very cheaply and easily.

Steel bicycle frames now have no known purpose.

On Aug 21, 10:07*pm, OccasionalFlyer wrote:
* *Years ago, Titanium seemed all the rage, but every time I see a pro
team's bikes described, they are made of carbon fiber. *What happened
to Titanium? *I know there are Titanium bikes but no pro team seesm to
use them. * I thought that Titanium was able to be light, stiff, and
dampen road vibration well. *Shouldn't that make for a good frame?

Titanium is too durable and too expensive to work into eye-catching
shapes.

On 8/22/2011 11:47 AM, Ryan Cousineau wrote:


Steel bicycle frames now have no known purpose.


Other than propel a rider down the road you mean ?


Nothing wrong with steel. Except that the snobs won't like it. Which is
an attraction actually.


Bill
--

William R. Mattil

http://www.celestial-images.com

On Aug 22, 6:07*am, OccasionalFlyer wrote:
* *Years ago, Titanium seemed all the rage, but every time I see a pro
team's bikes described, they are made of carbon fiber. *What happened
to Titanium? *I know there are Titanium bikes but no pro team seesm to
use them. * I thought that Titanium was able to be light, stiff, and
dampen road vibration well. *Shouldn't that make for a good frame?


Only for the user. Full titanium frames are too tough for
satisfactory commercial growth. With mass production the ex-works
cost to the manufacturer of a carbon/plastic frame will eventually be
below that of any reasonable steel frame. There's no point to
manufacturers promoting or investing in titanium frames when the raw
materials and processing costs are escalating.

If you are requiring a frameset, are certain of your sizing
requirement and fancy titanium, I'd say get one while you still can.

On 8/22/2011 12:35 PM, William R. Mattil wrote:
On 8/22/2011 11:47 AM, Ryan Cousineau wrote:


Steel bicycle frames now have no known purpose.


Other than propel a rider down the road you mean ?


Nothing wrong with steel. Except that the snobs won't like it. Which is
an attraction actually.


Bill

You can't use steel in automated production without compromising
weight or reliability. That's why they've all but disappeared
from shops.

My experiences with steel bikes.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...6fb1b1e615f180

There is plenty wrong with steel. I realize this is a religious
issue, so I won't pursue it.

F

On Aug 22, 1:38*pm, Fred Flintstein
wrote:
On 8/22/2011 12:35 PM, William R. Mattil wrote:

On 8/22/2011 11:47 AM, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

Steel bicycle frames now have no known purpose.

Other than propel a rider down the road you mean ?

Nothing wrong with steel. Except that the snobs won't like it. Which is
an attraction actually.

You can't use steel in automated production without compromising
weight or reliability. That's why they've all but disappeared
from shops.

My experiences with steel bikes.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...6fb1b1e615f180

There is plenty wrong with steel. I realize this is a religious
issue, so I won't pursue it.

"Snobs don't like steel"? Wow. Call them "connoisseurs" then g.
Custom sizing, fancy paint, high-end $$$pensive steel frames are being
offered by many builders. There is a "steel is real" mythology
regarding ride quality, "steel" builders' magical abilities, whatever.
That said, I have an early 90's Tommasini Prestige SLX that mostly
sits but is a revelation every time I take it out. Rides great, but it
is heavy g. It is blue with yellow accents and always gets
compliments, both on appearance and the "I had one of those, rode
great" variety.

Some custom makers also build in Ti. If you don't paint Ti, the paint
get chipped and fall off, and "matte" finishes can be maintained
easily-- supposedly. I haven't seen the need with my Litespeed
Catalyst that I've been riding for about four years now. No muss, no
fuss, and no rust! Great for an everyday bike that can take ordinary
use without degradation (meaning missing paint, rust/corrosion, gel
coat infringement, etc.). Rides fine,too. Plain-vanilla geometry
yields a somewhat plain-vanilla ride that has no negative factors
IMHO; I have managed a couple of serious bacon-saving maneuvers on
that bike that taught me to have confidence in it.

Lots of steel bikes broke. Lots of Ti bikes have broken, and lots of
Cf bikes have broken, too (see "early Kestrels"). All of them can be
repaired, very much including cf.

Looks like there's gonna be life After Carbon, too. Zylon?
Thermoplastics? Whatever...

Meanwhile, there's bamboo:

http://www.calfeedesign.com/products/bamboo/

Wow, good old bamboo!-- and now, flax!

http://inhabitat.com/worlds-first-fl...wins-eurobike-
gold-award/

Ride what you like, don't worry about the rest!
--D-y

On Aug 22, 9:48*am, Ben Trovato wrote:
On Aug 21, 10:07*pm, OccasionalFlyer wrote:

* *Years ago, Titanium seemed all the rage, but every time I see a pro
team's bikes described, they are made of carbon fiber. *What happened
to Titanium? *I know there are Titanium bikes but no pro team seesm to
use them. * I thought that Titanium was able to be light, stiff, and
dampen road vibration well. *Shouldn't that make for a good frame?

Titanium is too durable and *too expensive to work into eye-catching
shapes.

Biggest problem with Ti is that if you build a frame correctly with
it, it's almost impossible to destroy in an accident, never wears out,
so you're stuck with it. I'm still riding my Litespeed from 1994,
which has been updated with current wheels and components. It's about
1 lb heavier than the typical CF bike my friends are riding. Could it
be stiffer? I guess so, but it handles fine and I don't do sprinting
any more. New bikes look pretty nice, but why spend the money if you
don't have to.

On Aug 22, 2:07*am, OccasionalFlyer wrote:
* *Years ago, Titanium seemed all the rage, but every time I see a pro
team's bikes described, they are made of carbon fiber. *What happened
to Titanium? *I know there are Titanium bikes but no pro team seesm to
use them. * I thought that Titanium was able to be light, stiff, and
dampen road vibration well. *Shouldn't that make for a good frame?

Titanium is more difficult to form into a
recognizable shape for brand identity. If this
is a consideration, then you should probably seek
another frame material.

IME people who really care what their bike is made out
of, are also the people for whom it is unlikely to matter.
There are exceptions, like if you are really large or
an engineer who happens to ride a *lot*.

Fredmaster Ben

On Aug 22, 10:17*pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd
wrote:
On Aug 22, 2:07*am, OccasionalFlyer wrote:

* *Years ago, Titanium seemed all the rage, but every time I see a pro
team's bikes described, they are made of carbon fiber. *What happened
to Titanium? *I know there are Titanium bikes but no pro team seesm to
use them. * I thought that Titanium was able to be light, stiff, and
dampen road vibration well. *Shouldn't that make for a good frame?

Titanium is more difficult to form into a
recognizable shape for brand identity. *If this
is a consideration, then you should probably seek
another frame material.

IME people who really care what their bike is made out
of, are also the people for whom it is unlikely to matter.
There are exceptions, like if you are really large or
an engineer who happens to ride a *lot*.

Fredmaster Ben

Ah, you forget the phsychological bashing that goes on at the start
line when competitors are eyeing each other and their bikes up.
Subtleties of bike fit, saddle comfort and well built steel spoked
wheels are hard to put across but a large lump of plastic frame is
hard to miss. I can still climb faster over a short steep climb than
the crabon fibre kids. My bike and belly is perhaps twice the weight
of theirs. They try to make power before they can cycle.