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Assembly of Di2



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 30th 20, 12:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Assembly of Di2

On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 2:27:29 PM UTC-8, wrote:

You can get the wires in or out by hand just don't push or pull on the wire itself. Make sure you feel it snap in place. Only at places were several wires are close together the tool comes in handy. Everyone who can read a diagram and can put a plug in a socket can put a test setup together in a couple of minutes; just lay all components on the table and connect the wires. I agree with you that the battery has to be really dead not to be able to make the read LED flashing. Is it even possible to order the wrong cables?
These are what you need :
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...or-Di2-p29531/

Lou


It is nearly impossible to use the wire installation tool on the SH-785 levers. The groove for the entrance of the wire is nearly the same size as the wire. There isn't even room to get the connector through that part. Then it opens up but even that doesn't allow you to use the installation tool.
I assumed that they wanted you to use it at a slight angle but it wouldn't insert all the way using that method. I used the extraction end and with a great deal of trouble managed to get them "snapped" in.

But it shouldn't require any other connection to the stem junction other than power to allow it to work enough to get a light. The seller told me that it was operating fine when he sold it to me. I'll take him at his word even though he sort of misrepresented it saying that it was an Ultegra set when in fact the front and rear derailleurs were Ultegra and the rest 785.

I got the EW-7870S external wiring kit which turned out to be DuraAce and some of the connectors have four wires plus shield (which is used as the return line I suppose.) So, yes it IS possible to get the wiring incorrect. I haven't a clue what the four wires would be for. This old set is about as simple as possible. A 5 hole junction block would be fore adding TT bar-end shifters. My friend's Di2 uses a sort of "in-line" junction box" that zip ties to the rear brake cable as it passes into the guard on his titanium frame. The two wires going to the shifters are intrinsic to the junction box. That's about all I could tell from the pictures he sent me and he hasn't gone on any of the rides I've been on to check the last month. Well, it has been either raining or cold.

The one advantage I can see to the Di2 is that nothing charges. I get the Campy stuff working absolutely perfect and then two weeks later the damn thing is jumping gears. Yesterday I had my Lemond shifting perfectly and it shredded the front shift cable for reasons unknown. It looked like a wire in the center of the cable broke, the entire cable collapsed inward because of that, the end cap came off and the inner cable simply slipped out of the lock-screw. That's a new one on me.

Since I have an 11-28 I did the ride in the small ring. It turned to rain and so I was being careful But over 3,400 feet of climbing and 38 miles I got home at the normal time and with a 10.9 mph avg when my normal avg is 9.5 mph. So it appears that those power rides are making a large difference. I had been wondering if I was simply learning where to turn it on the hardest.
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  #22  
Old January 30th 20, 12:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Assembly of Di2

On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 1:07:02 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 12:26:32 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 12:00:57 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 11:17:16 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 5:36:21 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 4:59:05 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 1:40:42 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 1:59:08 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

Well, I have put the Di2 together. And nothing works. The possible sources of error a

1. The wiring is incorrect. I assumed that the left and right shifters would go into the left and right connector of to two holes of the 5 hole Stem unit. The manual is not clear about this so it was ad lib.

2. The new battery could be flat. I have no way of measuring the voltage under load but the unloaded voltage is 8 volts and Shimano says that 7 something volts is a full charge. I bought a new charger but I don't think it was new since it didn't come in a box or sealed plastic bag and when I questioned the seller he promptly returned my money and said that I could keep the charger. Looking at the output voltage it measures zero but I don't know what the charging circuitry is. It could turn off with no detectable load. Hmmm. So I bought another "new" charger and hopefully this one will work.

So the question is this: Could the battery be so flat that the unit wouldn't turn on?

Possible, but I never came across a new battery out of the box that was so dead that it wasn't able to power a led.

Lou

I find it curious as well. Nut Lithium Ion batteries are odd works. Perhaps plugging it into the battery charger whish isn't working drained the battery. And the high voltage measurement I got was because there was no load on it.

In any case the new charger should arrive Friday and I'll test the charge again.

Otherwise I'll have to replace the stem unit. I have no idea why his stem junction box is a five port unless he was running TT bars with end shifters.

Is this a trick question? If your battery is showing 8v, it's not dead. No? Why would load matter -- except for measuring capacity. I understand the battery may have a protection circuit, but wouldn't that decrease the measured voltage?

I don't have an EE degree, but I measure batteries with a multimeter all the time to see if they are alive or dead, and if one showed 8v it would not be dead. I think you messed something up. Just check the quality of your connections. Do you have the little tool? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkdY9q-u5Dk If you're not fishing wires, it's really pretty fast and easy. Its the fishing that takes time.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, stop showing that you don't know anything about engineering. A battery is similar to a capacitor to the extend that load matters to output voltage. Even a small charge on a battery can show "normal" voltage if you are measuring it unloaded.

So what is the likelihood that a battery showing 8v will not produce enough current to run a tiny LED? I mean your not cranking a starter motor.. I represent these guys and will see what they have to say. https://mobilepowersolutions.com/ Every time you have some problem, it turns out to be some bizarre mistake, as with your bottom bracket measurement, seat tube clamp diameter, etc., etc. This is not rocket science. Di2 is an easy install..

-- Jay Beattie.


Tell us how many Di2 you personally installed? What is bizarre is that you represent some people and hence know electronics engineering. Or that you believe that the only thing inside that stem junction box is an LED.


Exactly one. And I confess to breaking the wire to my RD while washing the bike a little too vigorously on my wash stand (dragged the wire into the cassette with a brush). I soldered it back together and used some shrink tube to seal it up. I may put in a replacement wire one day. That shorted the battery, BTW, which has had no problems since. I also confess to needing to read up on programming because I want to change some presets.

You don't need an EE to build a Di2 bike. All you need is YouTube. And I'm sure there is more than an LED in the junction box, but it it is getting power, the LED will blink red at basically any voltage output until it is absolutely dead. I would figure that you would get the blinking red with even a bad battery with some voltage output if it were properly wired. Check all your connections again. Use the tool.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, an LED requires 1.5 volts bias or so to turn on. This is why I was saying to you to not try to be an EE. You can easily discharge the battery to below the bias simply by leaving everything on. At $100 for a battery I sure hope this bad battery charger didn't ruin the battery.
  #23  
Old January 30th 20, 02:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Assembly of Di2

On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 3:52:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 8:26:32 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 12:00:57 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 11:17:16 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 5:36:21 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 4:59:05 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 1:40:42 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 1:59:08 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

Well, I have put the Di2 together. And nothing works. The possible sources of error a

1. The wiring is incorrect. I assumed that the left and right shifters would go into the left and right connector of to two holes of the 5 hole Stem unit. The manual is not clear about this so it was ad lib.

2. The new battery could be flat. I have no way of measuring the voltage under load but the unloaded voltage is 8 volts and Shimano says that 7 something volts is a full charge. I bought a new charger but I don't think it was new since it didn't come in a box or sealed plastic bag and when I questioned the seller he promptly returned my money and said that I could keep the charger. Looking at the output voltage it measures zero but I don't know what the charging circuitry is. It could turn off with no detectable load. Hmmm. So I bought another "new" charger and hopefully this one will work.

So the question is this: Could the battery be so flat that the unit wouldn't turn on?

Possible, but I never came across a new battery out of the box that was so dead that it wasn't able to power a led.

Lou

I find it curious as well. Nut Lithium Ion batteries are odd works. Perhaps plugging it into the battery charger whish isn't working drained the battery. And the high voltage measurement I got was because there was no load on it.

In any case the new charger should arrive Friday and I'll test the charge again.

Otherwise I'll have to replace the stem unit. I have no idea why his stem junction box is a five port unless he was running TT bars with end shifters.

Is this a trick question? If your battery is showing 8v, it's not dead. No? Why would load matter -- except for measuring capacity. I understand the battery may have a protection circuit, but wouldn't that decrease the measured voltage?

I don't have an EE degree, but I measure batteries with a multimeter all the time to see if they are alive or dead, and if one showed 8v it would not be dead. I think you messed something up. Just check the quality of your connections. Do you have the little tool? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkdY9q-u5Dk If you're not fishing wires, it's really pretty fast and easy. Its the fishing that takes time.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, stop showing that you don't know anything about engineering. A battery is similar to a capacitor to the extend that load matters to output voltage. Even a small charge on a battery can show "normal" voltage if you are measuring it unloaded.

So what is the likelihood that a battery showing 8v will not produce enough current to run a tiny LED? I mean your not cranking a starter motor.. I represent these guys and will see what they have to say. https://mobilepowersolutions.com/ Every time you have some problem, it turns out to be some bizarre mistake, as with your bottom bracket measurement, seat tube clamp diameter, etc., etc. This is not rocket science. Di2 is an easy install..

-- Jay Beattie.


Tell us how many Di2 you personally installed? What is bizarre is that you represent some people and hence know electronics engineering. Or that you believe that the only thing inside that stem junction box is an LED.


Jay would be very ****ed off if those three electronics engineers went around pontificating about the law because "we know Jay Beattie, who's a lawyer".


I agree, and my disbelief is based on my experience with the product and not superior electrical knowledge. I totally shorted a Di2 battery (sparks and all when I cut the rear derailleur wire), and it still had enough juice to run the flashing red indicator LED on the junction box. It wouldn't shift a gear, but it would run the light.

I understand that the voltage difference can be minimal between a charged and discharged battery -- maybe only a volt or two, but Tom said the measured output was 8v. The Di2 battery is 7.4v battery and charges up to a little over 8v, so it would appear he has a NEW, charged battery. He would then have to have a battery that couldn't manage even a tiny load -- the same load handled by my shorted battery. I understand that can happen, but what is the likelihood compared to a screw up in connection, bad junction, etc., etc. My multimeter has a battery load tester, so I would just use that anyway. Tom should get one of these. $10 at Home Depot. https://tinyurl.com/qsj599e My money is still on some other issue.

-- Jay Beattie.



  #24  
Old January 30th 20, 03:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Assembly of Di2

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 1:52:43 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 3:52:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 8:26:32 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 12:00:57 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 11:17:16 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 5:36:21 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 4:59:05 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 1:40:42 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 1:59:08 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

Well, I have put the Di2 together. And nothing works. The possible sources of error a

1. The wiring is incorrect. I assumed that the left and right shifters would go into the left and right connector of to two holes of the 5 hole Stem unit. The manual is not clear about this so it was ad lib.

2. The new battery could be flat. I have no way of measuring the voltage under load but the unloaded voltage is 8 volts and Shimano says that 7 something volts is a full charge. I bought a new charger but I don't think it was new since it didn't come in a box or sealed plastic bag and when I questioned the seller he promptly returned my money and said that I could keep the charger. Looking at the output voltage it measures zero but I don't know what the charging circuitry is. It could turn off with no detectable load. Hmmm. So I bought another "new" charger and hopefully this one will work.

So the question is this: Could the battery be so flat that the unit wouldn't turn on?

Possible, but I never came across a new battery out of the box that was so dead that it wasn't able to power a led.

Lou

I find it curious as well. Nut Lithium Ion batteries are odd works. Perhaps plugging it into the battery charger whish isn't working drained the battery. And the high voltage measurement I got was because there was no load on it.

In any case the new charger should arrive Friday and I'll test the charge again.

Otherwise I'll have to replace the stem unit. I have no idea why his stem junction box is a five port unless he was running TT bars with end shifters.

Is this a trick question? If your battery is showing 8v, it's not dead. No? Why would load matter -- except for measuring capacity. I understand the battery may have a protection circuit, but wouldn't that decrease the measured voltage?

I don't have an EE degree, but I measure batteries with a multimeter all the time to see if they are alive or dead, and if one showed 8v it would not be dead. I think you messed something up. Just check the quality of your connections. Do you have the little tool? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkdY9q-u5Dk If you're not fishing wires, it's really pretty fast and easy. Its the fishing that takes time.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, stop showing that you don't know anything about engineering. A battery is similar to a capacitor to the extend that load matters to output voltage. Even a small charge on a battery can show "normal" voltage if you are measuring it unloaded.

So what is the likelihood that a battery showing 8v will not produce enough current to run a tiny LED? I mean your not cranking a starter motor. I represent these guys and will see what they have to say. https://mobilepowersolutions.com/ Every time you have some problem, it turns out to be some bizarre mistake, as with your bottom bracket measurement, seat tube clamp diameter, etc., etc. This is not rocket science. Di2 is an easy install.

-- Jay Beattie.

Tell us how many Di2 you personally installed? What is bizarre is that you represent some people and hence know electronics engineering. Or that you believe that the only thing inside that stem junction box is an LED.


Jay would be very ****ed off if those three electronics engineers went around pontificating about the law because "we know Jay Beattie, who's a lawyer".


I agree, and my disbelief is based on my experience with the product and not superior electrical knowledge. I totally shorted a Di2 battery (sparks and all when I cut the rear derailleur wire), and it still had enough juice to run the flashing red indicator LED on the junction box. It wouldn't shift a gear, but it would run the light.

I understand that the voltage difference can be minimal between a charged and discharged battery -- maybe only a volt or two, but Tom said the measured output was 8v. The Di2 battery is 7.4v battery and charges up to a little over 8v, so it would appear he has a NEW, charged battery. He would then have to have a battery that couldn't manage even a tiny load -- the same load handled by my shorted battery. I understand that can happen, but what is the likelihood compared to a screw up in connection, bad junction, etc., etc. My multimeter has a battery load tester, so I would just use that anyway. Tom should get one of these. $10 at Home Depot. https://tinyurl.com/qsj599e My money is still on some other issue.

-- Jay Beattie.


My money is on the wiring, not because I know the wiring chart on Tom's Di2 for road bikes off by heart, but because on my much more complicated commuter's fully auto plus adaptive suspension Di2 when I reengineered it to suit me (and the brief given to the designer who had delusions of sporting activities) better, extending the wiring was the thing that gave me the most bother even though it was supposedly a plug-and-play system and it worked perfectly when it arrived so that I in fact had a working blueprint to work on.

Andre Jute
Working with 1500V for my tube hi-fi was less fraught than working with Di2
  #25  
Old January 30th 20, 06:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Assembly of Di2

On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 6:02:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 1:52:43 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 3:52:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 8:26:32 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 12:00:57 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 11:17:16 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 5:36:21 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 4:59:05 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 1:40:42 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 1:59:08 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

Well, I have put the Di2 together. And nothing works. The possible sources of error a

1. The wiring is incorrect. I assumed that the left and right shifters would go into the left and right connector of to two holes of the 5 hole Stem unit. The manual is not clear about this so it was ad lib.

2. The new battery could be flat. I have no way of measuring the voltage under load but the unloaded voltage is 8 volts and Shimano says that 7 something volts is a full charge. I bought a new charger but I don't think it was new since it didn't come in a box or sealed plastic bag and when I questioned the seller he promptly returned my money and said that I could keep the charger. Looking at the output voltage it measures zero but I don't know what the charging circuitry is. It could turn off with no detectable load. Hmmm. So I bought another "new" charger and hopefully this one will work.

So the question is this: Could the battery be so flat that the unit wouldn't turn on?

Possible, but I never came across a new battery out of the box that was so dead that it wasn't able to power a led.

Lou

I find it curious as well. Nut Lithium Ion batteries are odd works. Perhaps plugging it into the battery charger whish isn't working drained the battery. And the high voltage measurement I got was because there was no load on it.

In any case the new charger should arrive Friday and I'll test the charge again.

Otherwise I'll have to replace the stem unit. I have no idea why his stem junction box is a five port unless he was running TT bars with end shifters.

Is this a trick question? If your battery is showing 8v, it's not dead. No? Why would load matter -- except for measuring capacity. I understand the battery may have a protection circuit, but wouldn't that decrease the measured voltage?

I don't have an EE degree, but I measure batteries with a multimeter all the time to see if they are alive or dead, and if one showed 8v it would not be dead. I think you messed something up. Just check the quality of your connections. Do you have the little tool? https://www.youtube..com/watch?v=OkdY9q-u5Dk If you're not fishing wires, it's really pretty fast and easy. Its the fishing that takes time.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, stop showing that you don't know anything about engineering. A battery is similar to a capacitor to the extend that load matters to output voltage. Even a small charge on a battery can show "normal" voltage if you are measuring it unloaded.

So what is the likelihood that a battery showing 8v will not produce enough current to run a tiny LED? I mean your not cranking a starter motor. I represent these guys and will see what they have to say. https://mobilepowersolutions.com/ Every time you have some problem, it turns out to be some bizarre mistake, as with your bottom bracket measurement, seat tube clamp diameter, etc., etc. This is not rocket science. Di2 is an easy install.

-- Jay Beattie.

Tell us how many Di2 you personally installed? What is bizarre is that you represent some people and hence know electronics engineering. Or that you believe that the only thing inside that stem junction box is an LED.

Jay would be very ****ed off if those three electronics engineers went around pontificating about the law because "we know Jay Beattie, who's a lawyer".


I agree, and my disbelief is based on my experience with the product and not superior electrical knowledge. I totally shorted a Di2 battery (sparks and all when I cut the rear derailleur wire), and it still had enough juice to run the flashing red indicator LED on the junction box. It wouldn't shift a gear, but it would run the light.

I understand that the voltage difference can be minimal between a charged and discharged battery -- maybe only a volt or two, but Tom said the measured output was 8v. The Di2 battery is 7.4v battery and charges up to a little over 8v, so it would appear he has a NEW, charged battery. He would then have to have a battery that couldn't manage even a tiny load -- the same load handled by my shorted battery. I understand that can happen, but what is the likelihood compared to a screw up in connection, bad junction, etc.., etc. My multimeter has a battery load tester, so I would just use that anyway. Tom should get one of these. $10 at Home Depot. https://tinyurl.com/qsj599e My money is still on some other issue.

-- Jay Beattie.


My money is on the wiring, not because I know the wiring chart on Tom's Di2 for road bikes off by heart, but because on my much more complicated commuter's fully auto plus adaptive suspension Di2 when I reengineered it to suit me (and the brief given to the designer who had delusions of sporting activities) better, extending the wiring was the thing that gave me the most bother even though it was supposedly a plug-and-play system and it worked perfectly when it arrived so that I in fact had a working blueprint to work on.

Andre Jute
Working with 1500V for my tube hi-fi was less fraught than working with Di2


The stem junction box is the system controller. It has a microprocessor in it to generate the system control language. All it requires is power to make the LED's light. So all it requires is a power line. Since I ran a system wire directly from the battery to the stem control unit and it didn't light there can only be two sources of error. The battery is too low or the stem unit is defective. I am taking the seller's word that it worked fine and I know that my battery charger is defective so it must have be the battery charge.

The new charger is due on Friday so Saturday I'll know. Also I am on the verge of buying a three connector stem unit since that is what was supposed to come on the group. If all else fails replace the only two sources of error.
  #26  
Old January 30th 20, 07:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,563
Default Assembly of Di2

On 30/01/2020 00:36, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 1:07:02 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 12:26:32 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 12:00:57 PM UTC-8, jbeattie
wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 11:17:16 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 5:36:21 PM UTC-8, jbeattie
wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 4:59:05 PM UTC-8, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 1:40:42 AM UTC-8,
wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 1:59:08 AM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom
Kunich wrote:
It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic
brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What
do you think?

Well, I have put the Di2 together. And nothing works.
The possible sources of error a

1. The wiring is incorrect. I assumed that the left
and right shifters would go into the left and right
connector of to two holes of the 5 hole Stem unit.
The manual is not clear about this so it was ad lib.

2. The new battery could be flat. I have no way of
measuring the voltage under load but the unloaded
voltage is 8 volts and Shimano says that 7 something
volts is a full charge. I bought a new charger but I
don't think it was new since it didn't come in a box
or sealed plastic bag and when I questioned the
seller he promptly returned my money and said that I
could keep the charger. Looking at the output voltage
it measures zero but I don't know what the charging
circuitry is. It could turn off with no detectable
load. Hmmm. So I bought another "new" charger and
hopefully this one will work.

So the question is this: Could the battery be so flat
that the unit wouldn't turn on?

Possible, but I never came across a new battery out of
the box that was so dead that it wasn't able to power a
led.

Lou

I find it curious as well. Nut Lithium Ion batteries are
odd works. Perhaps plugging it into the battery charger
whish isn't working drained the battery. And the high
voltage measurement I got was because there was no load
on it.

In any case the new charger should arrive Friday and I'll
test the charge again.

Otherwise I'll have to replace the stem unit. I have no
idea why his stem junction box is a five port unless he
was running TT bars with end shifters.

Is this a trick question? If your battery is showing 8v,
it's not dead. No? Why would load matter -- except for
measuring capacity. I understand the battery may have a
protection circuit, but wouldn't that decrease the measured
voltage?

I don't have an EE degree, but I measure batteries with a
multimeter all the time to see if they are alive or dead,
and if one showed 8v it would not be dead. I think you
messed something up. Just check the quality of your
connections. Do you have the little tool?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkdY9q-u5Dk If you're not
fishing wires, it's really pretty fast and easy. Its the
fishing that takes time.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, stop showing that you don't know anything about
engineering. A battery is similar to a capacitor to the
extend that load matters to output voltage. Even a small
charge on a battery can show "normal" voltage if you are
measuring it unloaded.

So what is the likelihood that a battery showing 8v will not
produce enough current to run a tiny LED? I mean your not
cranking a starter motor. I represent these guys and will see
what they have to say. https://mobilepowersolutions.com/
Every time you have some problem, it turns out to be some
bizarre mistake, as with your bottom bracket measurement, seat
tube clamp diameter, etc., etc. This is not rocket science. Di2
is an easy install.

-- Jay Beattie.

Tell us how many Di2 you personally installed? What is bizarre is
that you represent some people and hence know electronics
engineering. Or that you believe that the only thing inside that
stem junction box is an LED.


Exactly one. And I confess to breaking the wire to my RD while
washing the bike a little too vigorously on my wash stand (dragged
the wire into the cassette with a brush). I soldered it back
together and used some shrink tube to seal it up. I may put in a
replacement wire one day. That shorted the battery, BTW, which has
had no problems since. I also confess to needing to read up on
programming because I want to change some presets.

You don't need an EE to build a Di2 bike. All you need is YouTube.
And I'm sure there is more than an LED in the junction box, but it
it is getting power, the LED will blink red at basically any
voltage output until it is absolutely dead. I would figure that you
would get the blinking red with even a bad battery with some
voltage output if it were properly wired. Check all your
connections again. Use the tool.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, an LED requires 1.5 volts bias or so to turn on. This is why I
was saying to you to not try to be an EE. You can easily discharge
the battery to below the bias simply by leaving everything on. At
$100 for a battery I sure hope this bad battery charger didn't ruin
the battery.


I'm pretty sure the Di2 contains a couple of 14430s, at about 10USB.
I'd have also thought an LED would start conducting around the 0.7V
mark. Ok, not very bright. Btw, I'm not an EE either.

  #27  
Old January 30th 20, 11:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Assembly of Di2

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 12:36:59 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 1:07:02 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 12:26:32 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 12:00:57 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 11:17:16 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 5:36:21 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 4:59:05 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 1:40:42 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 1:59:08 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

Well, I have put the Di2 together. And nothing works. The possible sources of error a

1. The wiring is incorrect. I assumed that the left and right shifters would go into the left and right connector of to two holes of the 5 hole Stem unit. The manual is not clear about this so it was ad lib.

2. The new battery could be flat. I have no way of measuring the voltage under load but the unloaded voltage is 8 volts and Shimano says that 7 something volts is a full charge. I bought a new charger but I don't think it was new since it didn't come in a box or sealed plastic bag and when I questioned the seller he promptly returned my money and said that I could keep the charger. Looking at the output voltage it measures zero but I don't know what the charging circuitry is. It could turn off with no detectable load. Hmmm. So I bought another "new" charger and hopefully this one will work.

So the question is this: Could the battery be so flat that the unit wouldn't turn on?

Possible, but I never came across a new battery out of the box that was so dead that it wasn't able to power a led.

Lou

I find it curious as well. Nut Lithium Ion batteries are odd works. Perhaps plugging it into the battery charger whish isn't working drained the battery. And the high voltage measurement I got was because there was no load on it.

In any case the new charger should arrive Friday and I'll test the charge again.

Otherwise I'll have to replace the stem unit. I have no idea why his stem junction box is a five port unless he was running TT bars with end shifters.

Is this a trick question? If your battery is showing 8v, it's not dead. No? Why would load matter -- except for measuring capacity. I understand the battery may have a protection circuit, but wouldn't that decrease the measured voltage?

I don't have an EE degree, but I measure batteries with a multimeter all the time to see if they are alive or dead, and if one showed 8v it would not be dead. I think you messed something up. Just check the quality of your connections. Do you have the little tool? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkdY9q-u5Dk If you're not fishing wires, it's really pretty fast and easy. Its the fishing that takes time.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, stop showing that you don't know anything about engineering. A battery is similar to a capacitor to the extend that load matters to output voltage. Even a small charge on a battery can show "normal" voltage if you are measuring it unloaded.

So what is the likelihood that a battery showing 8v will not produce enough current to run a tiny LED? I mean your not cranking a starter motor. I represent these guys and will see what they have to say. https://mobilepowersolutions.com/ Every time you have some problem, it turns out to be some bizarre mistake, as with your bottom bracket measurement, seat tube clamp diameter, etc., etc. This is not rocket science. Di2 is an easy install.

-- Jay Beattie.

Tell us how many Di2 you personally installed? What is bizarre is that you represent some people and hence know electronics engineering. Or that you believe that the only thing inside that stem junction box is an LED.


Exactly one. And I confess to breaking the wire to my RD while washing the bike a little too vigorously on my wash stand (dragged the wire into the cassette with a brush). I soldered it back together and used some shrink tube to seal it up. I may put in a replacement wire one day. That shorted the battery, BTW, which has had no problems since. I also confess to needing to read up on programming because I want to change some presets.

You don't need an EE to build a Di2 bike. All you need is YouTube. And I'm sure there is more than an LED in the junction box, but it it is getting power, the LED will blink red at basically any voltage output until it is absolutely dead. I would figure that you would get the blinking red with even a bad battery with some voltage output if it were properly wired. Check all your connections again. Use the tool.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, an LED requires 1.5 volts bias or so to turn on. This is why I was saying to you to not try to be an EE. You can easily discharge the battery to below the bias simply by leaving everything on. At $100 for a battery I sure hope this bad battery charger didn't ruin the battery.


Tom what I would do to check the battery is take a LED with a 400 ohm resistor in serie and try to drive 20 mA through that LED at 8 Volts. If LED doesn't light battery is dead.

Lou
  #28  
Old January 30th 20, 12:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default Assembly of Di2

Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 6:07:40 PM UTC, Duane wrote:
On 1/29/2020 10:05 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 11:01:22 PM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 29/01/2020 02:36, jbeattie wrote:

snip

Is this a trick question? If your battery is showing 8v, it's not
dead. No? Why would load matter -- except for measuring capacity. I
understand the battery may have a protection circuit, but wouldn't
that decrease the measured voltage?

I don't have an EE degree, but I measure batteries with a multimeter
all the time to see if they are alive or dead, and if one showed 8v
it would not be dead. I think you messed something up. Just check
the quality of your connections. Do you have the little tool?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkdY9q-u5Dk If you're not fishing
wires, it's really pretty fast and easy. Its the fishing that takes
time.

A battery will often show volts but not be able to pwoer anything. You
should measure the voltage in circuit if possible (i.e. under load), or
just check the voltage of an old PP9 you have lying about (smoke
detector battery). If you have a *lot* lying around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hwLHdBTQ7s

I would think that if the battery is showing full voltage, it would
have enough amperage to run an LED at the junction box unless there was
something really weird about the protection circuit, but I'll leave
that to the electronic gurus. With Tom, it always turns out to be
something mundane like a wrong part or a mis-description, like his very
unique BB which turned out to be a standard 68mm ISO BB. The project
should take an hour or so and not months.

-- Jay Beattie.


Irrespective of Tom's abilities, it's not uncommon for a battery to show
voltage without a load and be dead.


More precisely, to die the moment a load is put on it, and to resurrect
itself after the load is removed, hence the universal consciousness of
rising on the third day.

Andre Jute
Hallelujah!



I prefer the Schrodinger cat analogy. The battery is dead and not dead
until you connect a load to it.

  #29  
Old January 30th 20, 04:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Assembly of Di2

On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 9:39:54 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 6:02:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 1:52:43 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 3:52:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 8:26:32 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 12:00:57 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 11:17:16 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 5:36:21 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 4:59:05 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 1:40:42 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 1:59:08 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?

Well, I have put the Di2 together. And nothing works. The possible sources of error a

1. The wiring is incorrect. I assumed that the left and right shifters would go into the left and right connector of to two holes of the 5 hole Stem unit. The manual is not clear about this so it was ad lib.

2. The new battery could be flat. I have no way of measuring the voltage under load but the unloaded voltage is 8 volts and Shimano says that 7 something volts is a full charge. I bought a new charger but I don't think it was new since it didn't come in a box or sealed plastic bag and when I questioned the seller he promptly returned my money and said that I could keep the charger. Looking at the output voltage it measures zero but I don't know what the charging circuitry is. It could turn off with no detectable load. Hmmm. So I bought another "new" charger and hopefully this one will work.

So the question is this: Could the battery be so flat that the unit wouldn't turn on?

Possible, but I never came across a new battery out of the box that was so dead that it wasn't able to power a led.

Lou

I find it curious as well. Nut Lithium Ion batteries are odd works. Perhaps plugging it into the battery charger whish isn't working drained the battery. And the high voltage measurement I got was because there was no load on it.

In any case the new charger should arrive Friday and I'll test the charge again.

Otherwise I'll have to replace the stem unit. I have no idea why his stem junction box is a five port unless he was running TT bars with end shifters.

Is this a trick question? If your battery is showing 8v, it's not dead. No? Why would load matter -- except for measuring capacity. I understand the battery may have a protection circuit, but wouldn't that decrease the measured voltage?

I don't have an EE degree, but I measure batteries with a multimeter all the time to see if they are alive or dead, and if one showed 8v it would not be dead. I think you messed something up. Just check the quality of your connections. Do you have the little tool? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkdY9q-u5Dk If you're not fishing wires, it's really pretty fast and easy. Its the fishing that takes time.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, stop showing that you don't know anything about engineering. A battery is similar to a capacitor to the extend that load matters to output voltage. Even a small charge on a battery can show "normal" voltage if you are measuring it unloaded.

So what is the likelihood that a battery showing 8v will not produce enough current to run a tiny LED? I mean your not cranking a starter motor. I represent these guys and will see what they have to say. https://mobilepowersolutions.com/ Every time you have some problem, it turns out to be some bizarre mistake, as with your bottom bracket measurement, seat tube clamp diameter, etc., etc. This is not rocket science. Di2 is an easy install.

-- Jay Beattie.

Tell us how many Di2 you personally installed? What is bizarre is that you represent some people and hence know electronics engineering. Or that you believe that the only thing inside that stem junction box is an LED.

Jay would be very ****ed off if those three electronics engineers went around pontificating about the law because "we know Jay Beattie, who's a lawyer".

I agree, and my disbelief is based on my experience with the product and not superior electrical knowledge. I totally shorted a Di2 battery (sparks and all when I cut the rear derailleur wire), and it still had enough juice to run the flashing red indicator LED on the junction box. It wouldn't shift a gear, but it would run the light.

I understand that the voltage difference can be minimal between a charged and discharged battery -- maybe only a volt or two, but Tom said the measured output was 8v. The Di2 battery is 7.4v battery and charges up to a little over 8v, so it would appear he has a NEW, charged battery. He would then have to have a battery that couldn't manage even a tiny load -- the same load handled by my shorted battery. I understand that can happen, but what is the likelihood compared to a screw up in connection, bad junction, etc., etc. My multimeter has a battery load tester, so I would just use that anyway. Tom should get one of these. $10 at Home Depot. https://tinyurl.com/qsj599e My money is still on some other issue.

-- Jay Beattie.


My money is on the wiring, not because I know the wiring chart on Tom's Di2 for road bikes off by heart, but because on my much more complicated commuter's fully auto plus adaptive suspension Di2 when I reengineered it to suit me (and the brief given to the designer who had delusions of sporting activities) better, extending the wiring was the thing that gave me the most bother even though it was supposedly a plug-and-play system and it worked perfectly when it arrived so that I in fact had a working blueprint to work on.

Andre Jute
Working with 1500V for my tube hi-fi was less fraught than working with Di2


The stem junction box is the system controller. It has a microprocessor in it to generate the system control language. All it requires is power to make the LED's light. So all it requires is a power line. Since I ran a system wire directly from the battery to the stem control unit and it didn't light there can only be two sources of error. The battery is too low or the stem unit is defective. I am taking the seller's word that it worked fine and I know that my battery charger is defective so it must have be the battery charge.

The new charger is due on Friday so Saturday I'll know. Also I am on the verge of buying a three connector stem unit since that is what was supposed to come on the group. If all else fails replace the only two sources of error.

Also there are only two types of wiring - the levers which only turn the voltage on frontwards or backwards to shift up or down and ALL of the rest of the wires are common so as long as they are plugged in they are correct. In short, it is nearly impossible to wire it wrong.


I hope that works for you. I just downloaded the e-tube project software and will update the firmware on all my components this weekend and maybe do some customization. I don't like the auto rear downshift shift when I downshift the FD, and I want to see if I can disarm the anti-cross chaining feature. My recharging cord works as a link, but you may need to buy the e-tube PC linkage device. Anyway, I haven't done this yet, but if you have a link and he downloadable etube project software, it will run diagnostics on your system, including the battery.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #30  
Old January 30th 20, 04:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Assembly of Di2

On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 10:49:56 PM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 30/01/2020 00:36, Tom Kunich wrote:
Jay, an LED requires 1.5 volts bias or so to turn on. This is why I
was saying to you to not try to be an EE. You can easily discharge
the battery to below the bias simply by leaving everything on. At
$100 for a battery I sure hope this bad battery charger didn't ruin
the battery.


I'm pretty sure the Di2 contains a couple of 14430s, at about 10USB.
I'd have also thought an LED would start conducting around the 0.7V
mark. Ok, not very bright. Btw, I'm not an EE either.


There is a difference between forward bias voltage of a transistor or common diode and an LED:

Forward-bias is when the anode (the pointy part of the symbol) is positive and the cathode (the bar) is negative. Reverse-bias is when the anode is negative and the cathode is positive. ... Typically, the forward voltage of an LED is about 1.8–3.3 volts; it varies by the color of the LED. A red LED typically drops 1.8 volts, but voltage drop normally rises as the light frequency increases, so a blue LED may drop around 3.3 volts.
 




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