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  #91  
Old January 26th 20, 05:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
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On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 7:47:08 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 16:38:56 -0800, Tom Kunich wrote:


Tell us what this farm welfare is.


wild guesses, since I don't live there, but;
rebates on fuel for agricultural purposes,
import tarrifs protecting inefficent farms from global competition (The
USA is a biggie on that one),
rebates of all sorts of taxes, licences, registration.
import tarrif relief for agricultural inputs.


In addition to long standing farm subsidies: https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...nyone-objected

-- Jay Beattie.
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  #92  
Old January 26th 20, 05:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 03:33:42 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 09:21:03 +0700, John B. wrote:


A bit more history is beneficial:


So, in fact, the 2nd amendment was nothing new, or strange, or unique.
It was simply adding to the new country's set of laws a law that
paralleled existing state or colony laws.


You've described a few "laws" in a few towns that could just as easily
been laws f oppression and get the fritz out of townn as we do not want
the poor here.


No, I was describing laws that were promulgated in some of the
original American Colonies.

In 1640 Connecticut had a population of ~1500, the Plymouth colony
had ~1,000, Rhode Island had 300 and the colonists would have had to
finance their own travel from Europe to the colonies. Remember that
most, if not all, of the early New England colonists were religious
"fanatics", one might call them, who left "The Old Country" to gain
religious freedom and either paid their own way or in some cases were
financed by English investors..

There were indentured persons in some of the colonies but I doubt that
there were any "poor folks" as the term is understood today.


Yes, one might argue that the 2nd amendment is no longer required...
after all an estimated 10,000 ran away rather than serve in the
"militia" last time they tried to draft them... and according to the
Nation's laws it can be changed.

Unfortunately, it requires a vote to change and apparently to date no
one has been able to convince a majority of the citizenry to vote for
the change.

So, you can wave your arms in the air, and rant and rave, to your
heart's content but unless you can convince 2/3rds of the citizenry to
agree with you there isn't going to be any change.


Isn't the issue the number of arms concentrate in the hands of a few
unstable individuals?

If maintaining the militia was the real need, the laws should specify the
arms and ammunition, for a few specific needs, that should be kept, thus
providing reliability by part canabalism and the holding of useful caches
in central storage. instead you have a rolling circus carrying a smorgas
board of iron mongery of dubious reliabiity or usefulness.


Given that the "militia" consisted of all males between the ages of 16
and 60 and these people were living in a wilderness which was also
inhabited by some rather war like people who resented having their
land stolen and you can begin to understand why the Rhode Island
Colony passed a law saying you couldn't travel more then two miles
outside the town without arms.

Note that the so called Mystic Massacre which virtually eliminated the
Pequot Indian tribe, thus ending the Pequot War, took place in 1637.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #93  
Old January 26th 20, 05:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On 1/25/2020 9:21 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 15:59:47 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/24/2020 8:54 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:58:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 1/24/2020 12:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:


The founders of this nation, thank God, were very powerful thinkers. But to you they were dopes and you know much better.

They were fairly sharp guys. Not gods, not saints, not infallible, but
sharp guys.

They believed in well-regulated militias. That was understood quite well
for about 200 years.

They believed in a militia quite simply because that is all that they
there was in the 1700's and yes, they tossed in the word "well
regulated", apparently in hope, as none of the state militias of the
1700's were what one might call "well regulated" and yes, there is
sufficient history available to realize this. Read up on the
Penobscot Expedition.

It was only in very recent times that the firearms industry and some gun
nuts got lawyers to convince activist judges that all precedents and all
previous legal thought should be thrown into a trash can and shot to
hell with an AR-15 fitted with a bump stock.

Read some history Frank. In the 1700's there was no standing army in
the colonies and the only armed defense available was the town/state
militia which by the mid 1700's were being viewed with some dismay by
the colonial governments. When Washington tried to mobilize the
Virginia Militia to fight against an Indian attack, in 1755, the
follow was written,
" he experienced all the evils of insubordination among the troups,
perverseness in the militia, inactivity in the officers, disregard of
orders, and reluctance in the civil authorities to render a proper
support."

Thus, I suggest, the term "well regulated" might well have more then a
cursory meaning.

As for AR-15's I might comment that contrary to popular belief the
bulk of the "continental Army, and the militia before them were armed
with smooth bore muskets - the rapid fire weapon of the era. From all
the records I can find there were in the neighborhood of 1,500
riflemen, in total, in the Colonial army during the war. However
rifles may have been a factor in the Colonial victory in the battle of
The Battle of King's Mountain.

I can only assume due to the rapid acceptance of fully automatic
weapons by various forces in modern times that had a weapon like the
AR-15 been available in 1775 that both sides would have adopted it :-)
Aft all both side had adopted cannon.


John, you haven't written anything new to me. And nothing that you've
written has rebutted what I said.

The Constitution was written in a time when militias with muskets were
the best insurance against an overseas power taking control of the
territory of the brand new United States. Those militias needed to be
well regulated, or they themselves could turn the place into 1990s
Mogadishu, but in slow motion, with at least 15 seconds between shots.


Actually a very well trained infantryman could fire 4 shots a minute,
but the standard in the British army was 3 rounds a minute, i.e. 20
seconds per shot, and other armies even slower... but the fact remains
that this was "rapid fire" in those days.


Yes. Exactly as I said.



We now have millions of fat Rambo wannabees buying guns not to keep
woodchucks out of the garden or put rabbits on the table. They're
choosing weapons with fantasy battles in mind, outfitting them with
magazines that have no practical use outside a firefight, and pretending
that they're going to use them against anyone who demands their
background be checked. With funding from the industry supplying their
toys, they've gotten the courts to twist away from true originalist
interpretations of the 2nd amendment.

What these Rambos do is not what your family did in New England. It's
not what the Founders imagined in the 1700s. It's not what happens in
other economically advanced countries. And our gun death stats and mass
shooting stats show the results.



Ah but Frank. The original meaning of the 2nd amendment was to ensure
an armed citizenry in order that a militia could be formed.


Right. A militia could be quickly organized by the U.S. government, or a
state's government, in case British battleships once again approached
the coast. Or, I suppose, Spaniards came marching up from the south.

Can you imagine what today's American Fat Rambos would do if that
unlikely situation occurred? Do you really think Gary Gun Nut would pack
his pistol and his modified AR-15 and leave his "Call of Duty" game to
actually do what he loves to pretend?

If such a crisis occurred, we'd have what Mogadishu had in its worst
years: Gangs of well-armed thugs roaming everywhere, blasting guns
constantly, killing anyone who they perceived to be from a rival group,
with the difinition of "rival group" constantly changing. We'd have a
society in ruins and a murder rate rising into the stratosphere.

It's not that a well regulated militia is impossible. Switzerland does
it reasonably well. They do it with gun laws over which the NRA would
call for open revolt. And their firearm murder rate and their mass
shooting rate prove that what we have is NOT what's mentioned in the 2nd
amendment.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #94  
Old January 26th 20, 05:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On 1/25/2020 6:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 12:42:05 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 11:12:16 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
In other words - go blow it out your ass. There has NEVER been a reduction in taxes that didn't more than pay for itself. What you like is the idea of holding a gun to the head of the American people and robbing them blind. Too bad it ain't going to happen. Maybe you're another Avenatti for all I know.


It appears that everyone disagrees with you, including the CBO. https://budget.house.gov/publication...-fiscal-future You can skip the political narrative and go right to the report: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/54918


Only you Democrats can possibly believe that the CBO which is what - a part of the Democrat controlled House would say that any benefits are slight and only temporary. I just rode with an investor that plays the market every single day and he says that practically since Trump entered office the market has risen. For a temporary and slight increase that is a very, very long time. Every day they say that the market is going to crash and every day they are wrong. He says that even when the market opens red that it is green before the end of the day. That is as is "green with envy".

I especially love the idea that you cutting your fees wouldn't increase your business enough to pay for the reduced income. For someone that thinks he understands micro-economics you most assuredly do not. People do not run out and hire a lawyer suddenly because the price has gone down. Exactly how are you connecting that with reducing taxes? How in he hell are you getting even close to any sort of connection between taxes and cost for services?



"practically since Trump entered office the market has risen."


Yes, and as is often noted rising equities are a vote of
confidence on the future. Always good to see people making
money,no beef with that.

That said, P/E are scary high, one might say 'bubbly' high...


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #95  
Old January 27th 20, 01:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 11:04:11 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/25/2020 9:21 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 15:59:47 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/24/2020 8:54 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:58:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 1/24/2020 12:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:


The founders of this nation, thank God, were very powerful thinkers. But to you they were dopes and you know much better.

They were fairly sharp guys. Not gods, not saints, not infallible, but
sharp guys.

They believed in well-regulated militias. That was understood quite well
for about 200 years.

They believed in a militia quite simply because that is all that they
there was in the 1700's and yes, they tossed in the word "well
regulated", apparently in hope, as none of the state militias of the
1700's were what one might call "well regulated" and yes, there is
sufficient history available to realize this. Read up on the
Penobscot Expedition.

It was only in very recent times that the firearms industry and some gun
nuts got lawyers to convince activist judges that all precedents and all
previous legal thought should be thrown into a trash can and shot to
hell with an AR-15 fitted with a bump stock.

Read some history Frank. In the 1700's there was no standing army in
the colonies and the only armed defense available was the town/state
militia which by the mid 1700's were being viewed with some dismay by
the colonial governments. When Washington tried to mobilize the
Virginia Militia to fight against an Indian attack, in 1755, the
follow was written,
" he experienced all the evils of insubordination among the troups,
perverseness in the militia, inactivity in the officers, disregard of
orders, and reluctance in the civil authorities to render a proper
support."

Thus, I suggest, the term "well regulated" might well have more then a
cursory meaning.

As for AR-15's I might comment that contrary to popular belief the
bulk of the "continental Army, and the militia before them were armed
with smooth bore muskets - the rapid fire weapon of the era. From all
the records I can find there were in the neighborhood of 1,500
riflemen, in total, in the Colonial army during the war. However
rifles may have been a factor in the Colonial victory in the battle of
The Battle of King's Mountain.

I can only assume due to the rapid acceptance of fully automatic
weapons by various forces in modern times that had a weapon like the
AR-15 been available in 1775 that both sides would have adopted it :-)
Aft all both side had adopted cannon.

John, you haven't written anything new to me. And nothing that you've
written has rebutted what I said.

The Constitution was written in a time when militias with muskets were
the best insurance against an overseas power taking control of the
territory of the brand new United States. Those militias needed to be
well regulated, or they themselves could turn the place into 1990s
Mogadishu, but in slow motion, with at least 15 seconds between shots.


Actually a very well trained infantryman could fire 4 shots a minute,
but the standard in the British army was 3 rounds a minute, i.e. 20
seconds per shot, and other armies even slower... but the fact remains
that this was "rapid fire" in those days.


Yes. Exactly as I said.


:-) No, you said "slow motion" :-) However, an English regiment was
capable of firing around 3.000 rounds a minute and were trained in
what was called "line" formations that allowed almost continuous
firing over a 500 - 1,000 foot wide front. If you want to refer to
this as "slow motion", fine, but I'm not sure that your definition
will be accepted by any one that had actually experienced it.



We now have millions of fat Rambo wannabees buying guns not to keep
woodchucks out of the garden or put rabbits on the table. They're
choosing weapons with fantasy battles in mind, outfitting them with
magazines that have no practical use outside a firefight, and pretending
that they're going to use them against anyone who demands their
background be checked. With funding from the industry supplying their
toys, they've gotten the courts to twist away from true originalist
interpretations of the 2nd amendment.

What these Rambos do is not what your family did in New England. It's
not what the Founders imagined in the 1700s. It's not what happens in
other economically advanced countries. And our gun death stats and mass
shooting stats show the results.



Ah but Frank. The original meaning of the 2nd amendment was to ensure
an armed citizenry in order that a militia could be formed.


Right. A militia could be quickly organized by the U.S. government, or a
state's government, in case British battleships once again approached
the coast. Or, I suppose, Spaniards came marching up from the south.


Nope, wrong again. in the early days, at least in New England, the
Militia wasn't "quickly organized" it existed, it consisted of all
males between 16 and 60 and Connecticut ordered in 1643 that at least
one person in every house shall bring a musket, pistol or some piece,
with powder and shot to every church meeting. And, in early New
England Church was not optional, it was the law that one must attend
and failure to do so was punishable, and was.


Can you imagine what today's American Fat Rambos would do if that
unlikely situation occurred? Do you really think Gary Gun Nut would pack
his pistol and his modified AR-15 and leave his "Call of Duty" game to
actually do what he loves to pretend?

If such a crisis occurred, we'd have what Mogadishu had in its worst
years: Gangs of well-armed thugs roaming everywhere, blasting guns
constantly, killing anyone who they perceived to be from a rival group,
with the difinition of "rival group" constantly changing. We'd have a
society in ruins and a murder rate rising into the stratosphere.


You seem to be implying a cause and effect situation where having guns
resulted in massacres but from what I read about the "troubles" in
Somalia, firearms were hardly a prerequisite, a machete was quite
often all that was required to slaughter "them" and "them" seems to be
anyone that isn't "us".


It's not that a well regulated militia is impossible. Switzerland does
it reasonably well. They do it with gun laws over which the NRA would
call for open revolt. And their firearm murder rate and their mass
shooting rate prove that what we have is NOT what's mentioned in the 2nd
amendment.


Yes, the Swiss do manage their army/militia well... But they have
mandatory military service for all males (females may volunteer). Do
you advocate that for the U.S.? Did you serve? Where? When?

Is it possible that strict military training has an effect on gun
crimes? Or mass shootings? Even though that up to recently every able
body Swiss man had a rifle at home?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #96  
Old January 27th 20, 01:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 8:18:07 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/25/2020 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Tell us what this farm welfare is.


Is that sarcasm? Farm welfare is extensive, pervasive and of
long standing. No worse than half of USA endeavors but no
better either.


If you pass laws that effectively hurt farmers such as demanding export taxes on farm products from foreign buyers I would hardly call replacing the money that it costs farmers as welfare.
  #97  
Old January 27th 20, 02:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On 1/26/2020 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 8:18:07 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/25/2020 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Tell us what this farm welfare is.


Is that sarcasm? Farm welfare is extensive, pervasive and of
long standing. No worse than half of USA endeavors but no
better either.


If you pass laws that effectively hurt farmers such as demanding export taxes on farm products from foreign buyers I would hardly call replacing the money that it costs farmers as welfare.


But this is the nature of the expanding
regulatory/administrative State. Destroy commerce in the
inner cities then patch it up with relief checks. Cripple
farmers with policy then support the more clever among them
with several hundred farm support programs. Regulate labor,
tax it, set a false 'minimum wage', ban casual cash labor
and then establish some 500-odd Federal 'job training'
programs. I cold go on, and often do.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #98  
Old January 27th 20, 03:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 19:37:11 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 1/26/2020 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 8:18:07 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/25/2020 6:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Tell us what this farm welfare is.

Is that sarcasm? Farm welfare is extensive, pervasive and of
long standing. No worse than half of USA endeavors but no
better either.


If you pass laws that effectively hurt farmers such as demanding export taxes on farm products from foreign buyers I would hardly call replacing the money that it costs farmers as welfare.


But this is the nature of the expanding
regulatory/administrative State. Destroy commerce in the
inner cities then patch it up with relief checks. Cripple
farmers with policy then support the more clever among them
with several hundred farm support programs. Regulate labor,
tax it, set a false 'minimum wage', ban casual cash labor
and then establish some 500-odd Federal 'job training'
programs. I cold go on, and often do.


The basis of the democratic political system is "vote for me and I'll
take care of you".

--
cheers,

John B.

  #99  
Old January 27th 20, 03:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On 1/26/2020 7:36 PM, John B. wrote:

Yes, the Swiss do manage their army/militia well... But they have
mandatory military service for all males (females may volunteer). Do
you advocate that for the U.S.? Did you serve? Where? When?


I have long advocated mandatory national service of some kind for
everyone, perhaps from age 18 to 20. I'd say it doesn't have to be
military service, but that should be one of the options available under
many others, with each addressing some societal need, but including
instruction and discipline similar to what's done in the military. There
are many needs that could be addressed by such a system.

I trust that the 18-year-old macho gun nuts would choose that military
option, and quickly learn to distinguish their fantasies from reality.
And distinguishing fantasy from reality is IME something needed by most
18-year-olds. If nothing else, a couple of disciplined "gap years" would
give kids time to figure out what they really should do with their lives
- as opposed to the typical "rock god" daydreams.

And I know well the difference in motivation, discipline and educational
achievement between 18-year-olds entering college straight out of high
school, versus 20-somethings entering after serving in the military.
It's a night and day difference.

As to "Did I?" No, and given the Viet Nam situation of the time, I
remain very thankful I didn't have to join the military. However, there
is a Marine veteran in this household.

Is it possible that strict military training has an effect on gun
crimes? Or mass shootings? Even though that up to recently every able
body Swiss man had a rifle at home?


Yes, it is more than possible. IOW, the Swiss do this far better than
the U.S. does.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #100  
Old January 27th 20, 04:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 21:40:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/26/2020 7:36 PM, John B. wrote:

Yes, the Swiss do manage their army/militia well... But they have
mandatory military service for all males (females may volunteer). Do
you advocate that for the U.S.? Did you serve? Where? When?


I have long advocated mandatory national service of some kind for
everyone, perhaps from age 18 to 20. I'd say it doesn't have to be
military service, but that should be one of the options available under
many others, with each addressing some societal need, but including
instruction and discipline similar to what's done in the military. There
are many needs that could be addressed by such a system.


I keep mentioning Singapore but they do a lot of things right. For
example, they have mandatory military service upon graduation from
high school. It is generally considered what I think is called a "Gap
Year" in the U.S. except the gap is filled with military service and
one simply spends a year "in the service" before collage.

But one of the side effects is that a great many of the inductees gain
a much greater understanding of the government and how it works - they
have classes - than you get from youtube or twitter :-)

In addition, first year collage students are a bit more mature and
probably do better - I remember when I was a senior in high school we
had a lecture from someone at Dartmouth Collage who said that
after WW II when they began to get students under the veterans
programs that it was noted that these people invariably got better
grades than those straight out of high school.

I trust that the 18-year-old macho gun nuts would choose that military
option, and quickly learn to distinguish their fantasies from reality.
And distinguishing fantasy from reality is IME something needed by most
18-year-olds. If nothing else, a couple of disciplined "gap years" would
give kids time to figure out what they really should do with their lives
- as opposed to the typical "rock god" daydreams.


I knew a lot of people in my 20 years in the military and I don't
remember any "gun nuts" in the sense of going to the range and just
blasting away. There was always a Base rifle team and a Base pistol
team, just as there was a Base basketball team so I don't know if
military service, per se, has anything to do with wild eyed AK-15
nuts.

I did know a bloke who was a Special Forces trooper, three tours in
Vietnam, wounded several times, etc., who was a real black hat. He
used to comment there wasn't anything better then jumping out of
airplanes, blowing up bridges and shooting people, and after I got to
know him I realized that he was deadly serious. After I went to
Vietnam and had gotten to know some other Green Berets I came to
realize that he was probably typical of the so called "A Team" guys
(The A Team being the chaps who actually go out in the bush).

I met the Green Bennie guy at the local gun club where we shot trap
and actually got friendly with him by fixing his shotgun for him. But
trap is a highly formalized game not just bang, bang, bang.

I remember that he had a MAT-49 submachine gun hanging on the wall in
his house but it seemed to be more of a trophy than something to
shoot.

It seems to me though that this shoot 'em up, bang, bang, thing is
relatively recent phenomena. At least I was pretty much in the "gun
business" from the time I was about 12 years old, buying, selling,,
trading, shooting, gun smithing, Pistol Team, etc., until I got out of
the Service in 1972 and I really don't remember anyone going to the
range and just blasting away. And yes we had available a small light
weight semi-automatic rifle with a big magazine, but I don't remember
anyone actually shooting one.

But after I came to Asia to work I do remember a guy I used to shoot
on a pistol team writing me and saying that he hated to go to the
range any more as a bunch of local guys were coming down and just
blasting away. He said you didn't even want to walk down to check your
target :-)

And I know well the difference in motivation, discipline and educational
achievement between 18-year-olds entering college straight out of high
school, versus 20-somethings entering after serving in the military.
It's a night and day difference.

As to "Did I?" No, and given the Viet Nam situation of the time, I
remain very thankful I didn't have to join the military. However, there
is a Marine veteran in this household.

Is it possible that strict military training has an effect on gun
crimes? Or mass shootings? Even though that up to recently every able
body Swiss man had a rifle at home?


Yes, it is more than possible. IOW, the Swiss do this far better than
the U.S. does.


But yet, from what I read, shooting is a rather popular sport in
Switzerland and many people participate, so it doesn't appear that
there is a simple correlation between gun availability and mass
shootings, or even murder, for that matter.
--
cheers,

John B.

 




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