My second encounter with the AFP

Some weeks ago, I posted my experience with the Australian Federal
Police whilst riding along Qantas Drive at Kingsford_Smith Airport.

To save everybody digging thru the archives, that time, the AFP guys
indicated (from inside their vehicle) that I should be using the
cycleway adjacent to the road instead of being in the middle of the road
itself. As they did not appear to press the issue, I continued riding in
the middle of the lane at that time.

Today, at about 1615, I had my second encounter and this time, it may be
a bit more serious as another lot of AFP pulled me over (lights and
sirens), severely admonished me verbally (I was in the middle of the
lane and holding up traffic), took my details and informed me that they
will contact me if there was going to be further action taken. There was
a lot more to this obviously but I am just giving the salient bits.

During the admonishment from the AFP goon, sorry, I meant officer, I
just stood my ground, quoted my usual spiel about "the RTA Handbook for
Road Users", "laws in the state of NSW", my right to a whole lane, my
roadworthy vehicle, my PPE, etc etc.

The incident occurred at around the same spot as last time and I am
beginning to feel paranoid about the fact that either someone here is
connected to the AFP OR the AFP is monitoring this newsgroup

As soon as I could, I wrote down everything that happened including the
name of the AFP goon, eeeerrrr... officer, who attempted to bully me
into riding on the left of the lane

His mate seemed alright cos as they were leaving, his mate said words to
the effect, "OK man".

Perhaps the most puzzling aspect was their claim that they were also NSW
Police! I could only see AFP badges on their uniforms.

In an attempt to be conciliatory, I did tell them that I had no problems
with them patrolling the perimeter of the airport and stopping me to ask
me for my ID. That was when I mentioned their jurisdiction outside of
Federal territory and their counter claim of being also NSW Police. I am
guessing that is bull****.

A coupla mins after I rode off in my usual manner, a NSW cop car went
past me without a second glance

On 18/01/2011 3:18 AM, Geoff Lock wrote:
Some weeks ago, I posted my experience with the Australian Federal
Police whilst riding along Qantas Drive at Kingsford_Smith Airport.

To save everybody digging thru the archives, that time, the AFP guys
indicated (from inside their vehicle) that I should be using the
cycleway adjacent to the road instead of being in the middle of the road
itself. As they did not appear to press the issue, I continued riding in
the middle of the lane at that time.

Today, at about 1615, I had my second encounter and this time, it may be
a bit more serious as another lot of AFP pulled me over (lights and
sirens), severely admonished me verbally (I was in the middle of the
lane and holding up traffic), took my details and informed me that they
will contact me if there was going to be further action taken. There was
a lot more to this obviously but I am just giving the salient bits.

During the admonishment from the AFP goon, sorry, I meant officer, I
just stood my ground, quoted my usual spiel about "the RTA Handbook for
Road Users", "laws in the state of NSW", my right to a whole lane, my
roadworthy vehicle, my PPE, etc etc.

The incident occurred at around the same spot as last time and I am
beginning to feel paranoid about the fact that either someone here is
connected to the AFP OR the AFP is monitoring this newsgroup

As soon as I could, I wrote down everything that happened including the
name of the AFP goon, eeeerrrr... officer, who attempted to bully me
into riding on the left of the lane

His mate seemed alright cos as they were leaving, his mate said words to
the effect, "OK man".

Perhaps the most puzzling aspect was their claim that they were also NSW
Police! I could only see AFP badges on their uniforms.

In an attempt to be conciliatory, I did tell them that I had no problems
with them patrolling the perimeter of the airport and stopping me to ask
me for my ID. That was when I mentioned their jurisdiction outside of
Federal territory and their counter claim of being also NSW Police. I am
guessing that is bull****.

A coupla mins after I rode off in my usual manner, a NSW cop car went
past me without a second glance

They have dual policemanship where as they can follow over their
boundary onto NSW property. But their primary role is Commonwealth property.

Did you ask if they will take personal responsibility if you are struck
by another motorist whilst following their directive.

On 18/01/2011 8:59 AM, Rob wrote:
On 18/01/2011 3:18 AM, Geoff Lock wrote:
Some weeks ago, I posted my experience with the Australian Federal
Police whilst riding along Qantas Drive at Kingsford_Smith Airport.

Perhaps the most puzzling aspect was their claim that they were also NSW
Police! I could only see AFP badges on their uniforms.

They have dual policemanship where as they can follow over their
boundary onto NSW property. But their primary role is Commonwealth
property.

Oh, I didn't know that. OK, so they were not telling porkies.

Used to be that the AFP were only limited to Commonwealth grounds and
NSW Police to State boundaries - at least that was what I was told cos
years ago as a rabble rousing student at UNSW, we'd conduct noisy
protests at Sydney Airport, do the runner in our cars to the Uni grounds
and basically laughrd and poked our tongues out at the NSW coppers who
followed us there from the safety of Commonwealth property.

Obviously, in our naiveness, we never thought that the NSW coppers had
no real interest in apprehending us cos if they had wanted to do so, we
would have had been toast in the 20 minutes or so it took to get to the
Uni from the Airport along NSW roads Ah, the innocence of callow
youth {to paraphrase Mentor from the Lensmen series by EE Doc Smith}

Did you ask if they will take personal responsibility if you are struck
by another motorist whilst following their directive.

Actually, I told him pointblank I was NOT going to follow his directive
I just looked him in the eye and repeated my "RTA Handbook" and the
"laws in the state of NSW" mantras.

On an aside, I think it is now 6 to me and nil to coppers. It would have
been 7-0 if I counted that 1st encounter with the AFP but as I did not
actually stop the bike I did not count that

I have been wondering what would happen if I did get a fine. I would
obviously contest that fine and there is a good chance the fine will get
thrown out of court BUT can I get compensation for wrongful "whatever"
and trauma and hurt and stuff like that?? Cos if I can sue for
damages, next time, I'll seriously think about goading them into giving
me a fine I could do with a new carbon fibre bike or three, you know

Yes Geoff, it is legal to ride in the middle of the lane, but is what you
are doing safe for both you and the people around you? What about people in
the cars as a result of people having to change lanes etc to get around you.
Your not talking about a back street here, your talking about a major road.
It's not that wideand has heavy vehicles. Combine that with people running
late for their flight.

It is also legal for me to walk past a bunch of bikies with my friends and
tell the bikies they are as thick as two short planks, get a haircut and get
a job, but to do this would be foolish. What would be result of my actions?

Ken


"Geoff Lock" glock@home wrote in message
...
On 18/01/2011 8:59 AM, Rob wrote:
On 18/01/2011 3:18 AM, Geoff Lock wrote:
Some weeks ago, I posted my experience with the Australian Federal
Police whilst riding along Qantas Drive at Kingsford_Smith Airport.

Perhaps the most puzzling aspect was their claim that they were also NSW
Police! I could only see AFP badges on their uniforms.

They have dual policemanship where as they can follow over their
boundary onto NSW property. But their primary role is Commonwealth
property.

Oh, I didn't know that. OK, so they were not telling porkies.

Used to be that the AFP were only limited to Commonwealth grounds and NSW
Police to State boundaries - at least that was what I was told cos years
ago as a rabble rousing student at UNSW, we'd conduct noisy protests at
Sydney Airport, do the runner in our cars to the Uni grounds and basically
laughrd and poked our tongues out at the NSW coppers who followed us there
from the safety of Commonwealth property.

Obviously, in our naiveness, we never thought that the NSW coppers had no
real interest in apprehending us cos if they had wanted to do so, we would
have had been toast in the 20 minutes or so it took to get to the Uni from
the Airport along NSW roads Ah, the innocence of callow youth {to
paraphrase Mentor from the Lensmen series by EE Doc Smith}

Did you ask if they will take personal responsibility if you are struck
by another motorist whilst following their directive.

Actually, I told him pointblank I was NOT going to follow his directive
I just looked him in the eye and repeated my "RTA Handbook" and the "laws
in the state of NSW" mantras.

On an aside, I think it is now 6 to me and nil to coppers. It would have
been 7-0 if I counted that 1st encounter with the AFP but as I did not
actually stop the bike I did not count that

I have been wondering what would happen if I did get a fine. I would
obviously contest that fine and there is a good chance the fine will get
thrown out of court BUT can I get compensation for wrongful "whatever" and
trauma and hurt and stuff like that?? Cos if I can sue for damages,
next time, I'll seriously think about goading them into giving me a fine
I could do with a new carbon fibre bike or three, you know

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:12:46 +1100
Ken & Stace wrote:
Yes Geoff, it is legal to ride in the middle of the lane, but is what you
are doing safe for both you and the people around you? What about people in
the cars as a result of people having to change lanes etc to get around you.
Your not talking about a back street here, your talking about a major road.
It's not that wideand has heavy vehicles. Combine that with people running
late for their flight.

If they can't pass, they shouldn't. If they can, they should.

If Geoff was a truck would you also complain? If peopel manage to sit
behind trucks till safe to pass, are you saying they can't do it
behind a bike, even though the vision is better?


If not, what *are* you saying about "people in their cars"? are you
saying that drivers on airport drive are not capable of changing
lanes?

I can't work out what the problem is.

People who are late for flights are risking trouble anyway.
Breakdowns, slow trucks, crashes. THe problem is not a slow vehicle,
is it being late for the flight,

If someone is late for a flight, are they jsutified in doing 110kmh in
a 70 zone?

If they are not, where is the difference between that, and the similar
time difference in waiting to change lanes on a multi lane road? 110
will get them to the flight on time, obeying the law means they miss.

Whose fault is the miss?


It is also legal for me to walk past a bunch of bikies with my friends and
tell the bikies they are as thick as two short planks, get a haircut and get
a job, but to do this would be foolish. What would be result of my actions?


In my experience, you will be laughed at.

They won't bother beating you up, because your disrespect isn't
important to them. You are a "citizen", and therefore irrelevant.

Try another analogy eh?

Howabout this one. "If I cross at a crosswalk on a road someone might
be late for work, and I get hit, well whose fault is that? Has to be
mine because asseting the road rules in front of impatient people is
too dangerous and their impatience must override all else. Because
that's how they view the world and I must not query that because I
might get hurt doing so."


Zebee

"Zebee Johnstone" wrote in message
...
In aus.bicycle on Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:12:46 +1100
Ken & Stace wrote:
Yes Geoff, it is legal to ride in the middle of the lane, but is what you
are doing safe for both you and the people around you? What about people
in
the cars as a result of people having to change lanes etc to get around
you.
Your not talking about a back street here, your talking about a major
road.
It's not that wideand has heavy vehicles. Combine that with people
running
late for their flight.

If they can't pass, they shouldn't. If they can, they should.

If Geoff was a truck would you also complain? If peopel manage to sit
behind trucks till safe to pass, are you saying they can't do it
behind a bike, even though the vision is better?

I would complain if the speed limit was 80KMH and the truck is sitting on 30
and there was room for me to get past if the truck just moved over a bit.


If not, what *are* you saying about "people in their cars"? are you
saying that drivers on airport drive are not capable of changing
lanes?

No I'm saying it's a heavy traffic area and if a driver gets caught behind a
slower vehicle they may take risks to get around said slow vehicle,
especially if the slow vehicle is taking up a full lane when, just by moving
over to the left a bit, the driver could get past.
I say people in their cars the same as I would say "a person on a bike" .

I can't work out what the problem is.

I don't see the point of "It's legal for me to do something therefore I'm
gonna do it and stuff the rest of you" The federal police wouldn't have got
involved if all was rosy. What was the traffic situation? Geoff has not
enlightened us on that.

A bit of consideration for others doesn't hurt. I'm sorry if I have misread
Geoff's attitude, but going by the "mantra" I think not. It may be legal,
but it is not safe for either Geoff or the people in the cars around him.

People who are late for flights are risking trouble anyway.
Breakdowns, slow trucks, crashes. THe problem is not a slow vehicle,
is it being late for the flight,

If someone is late for a flight, are they jsutified in doing 110kmh in
a 70 zone?

No you can never justify 110 in a 70 zone, You put the speed the driver was
doing at 110KMH. Not me. But a driver who is running late will get
frustrated and take risks they wouldn't normally take.

If they are not, where is the difference between that, and the similar
time difference in waiting to change lanes on a multi lane road? 110
will get them to the flight on time, obeying the law means they miss.

Whose fault is the miss?

The person who was late for their flight , however If they hit Geoff, it's
Geoff who will come off second best.
But as you said, ther are breakdowns slow traffic and crashes that make a
person late when they may have left home on time.

It is also legal for me to walk past a bunch of bikies with my friends
and
tell the bikies they are as thick as two short planks, get a haircut and
get
a job, but to do this would be foolish. What would be result of my
actions?


In my experience, you will be laughed at.

They won't bother beating you up, because your disrespect isn't
important to them. You are a "citizen", and therefore irrelevant.

You know some nice bikies.

Try another analogy eh?

Howabout this one. "If I cross at a crosswalk on a road someone might
be late for work, and I get hit, well whose fault is that? Has to be
mine because asseting the road rules in front of impatient people is
too dangerous and their impatience must override all else. Because
that's how they view the world and I must not query that because I
might get hurt doing so."

If I stand 4 metres back from the crossing and talk to friend and at the end
of the conversation suddenly run across the crossing without looking and get
hit legally the driver is at fault, but if it goes to court it may be
decided I didn't take due care.

How about this one: At Glenbrook just past the M4 the speed limit is 80KMH.
I can legally go through there at that speed anytime I want. However from
5.00pm onward, there are a large number of cars, bikes and buses turning in
and out of Ross Street and the petrol station, therefore it is prudent to
slow down to 60 at that time of the day.

Zebee


Ken

On 18/01/2011 4:12 PM, Ken & Stace wrote:
Yes Geoff, it is legal to ride in the middle of the lane, but is what you
are doing safe for both you and the people around you? What about people in
the cars as a result of people having to change lanes etc to get around you.
Your not talking about a back street here, your talking about a major road.
It's not that wideand has heavy vehicles. Combine that with people running
late for their flight.

Sorry for the late response but I just got back to my place - yeah I
keep weird hours. I also rode back to my place via a newish route
probably 12 kms but that is a different matter to the discussion at hand.

I also note that there has been quite a few dissenting posts to yours.

I like to add my views to the other posters.

I am glad you agree that what I am doing is legal.

My contention is that what I am doing is also safe. I am in the middle
of the lane and by ANY reckoning, NO OTHER ROAD USER can say that they
cannot see me with my 2x hi-vis ves (one on me and one on my back pack).
I also use 2x rear lights - one on my bike and one on my backpack.

Beyond the above, normal road rules apply - roadworthy vehicle,
overtaking is to be executed safely by vehicle overtaking the slower
vehicle, vehicles should keep a safe distance from each other, speed
limits to be adhered to, etc etc etc.

The conditions you have mentioned are purely of a personal nature -
folks wanting to overtake, folks running late for a flight, etc etc.
They are not exempt from following road rules.

If they chose NOT to follow road rules, it is a risk ANY road user faces
- not just me. Although I grant the fact that I am more vulnerable than
other road users.

It is also legal for me to walk past a bunch of bikies with my friends and
tell the bikies they are as thick as two short planks, get a haircut and get
a job, but to do this would be foolish. What would be result of my actions?

I do not wish to brag about my past associations with several outlaw
motorcycle clubs (from nominee to sergeant-at-arms levels) but the
result of your suggested actions will range from disinterest to physical
violence.

Anything is possible - you take the risk. Something akin to the risk one
takes when one commandeers any vehicle on the roads in NSW. You could
get hurt or you could hurt someone.

On 18/01/2011 2:43 PM, Geoff Lock wrote:
On 18/01/2011 8:59 AM, Rob wrote:
by another motorist whilst following their directive.

Actually, I told him pointblank I was NOT going to follow his directive
I just looked him in the eye and repeated my "RTA Handbook" and the
"laws in the state of NSW" mantras.


In that little book there is something that tells you how far from the
curve you should be at what speed.

like 80 and over should keep to the left lane unless overtaking.

under a certain speed within so much of the curve.

Rob wrote:

In that little book there is something that tells you how far from the
curve you should be at what speed.
like 80 and over should keep to the left lane unless overtaking.
under a certain speed within so much of the curve.

Since you're quoting, could you also quote your source?

Not trying to be a smart arse, (ahem) no really, I want to know.

Would be nice if you if you could also quote the document, revision and
section number.

I've looked at the Australian Road Rules, the South Australian Road
Rules (only slightly modified from the ARR), and the amendments for
each. I don't have others on hand right now, but I'm not too worried.
--
My kingdom for a beer; half my beer for a woman.

On 18/01/2011 8:16 PM, John Tserkezis wrote:
Rob wrote:

In that little book there is something that tells you how far from the
curve you should be at what speed.
like 80 and over should keep to the left lane unless overtaking.
under a certain speed within so much of the curve.

Since you're quoting, could you also quote your source?

Not trying to be a smart arse, (ahem) no really, I want to know.

Would be nice if you if you could also quote the document, revision and
section number.

I've looked at the Australian Road Rules, the South Australian Road
Rules (only slightly modified from the ARR), and the amendments for
each. I don't have others on hand right now, but I'm not too worried.

I'm not quoting as I don't have the book. Its just from memory, that
these do/did exist, from years ago.

There "were" (not sure if they still exist) other rules where you are
not required to wear a seat belt under a certain speed. It was slow
something like 10kph. This is where you have to look up the actual
legislation to get the exact rules.

Motorists only get an abbreviated edition of the road rules, there are
so many new ones issued all the time. When I went for my licence the
book was only 4 pages and I have never been issued with a new one to
keep up.

Here's a source to look up
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/n...reg/rr2008104/


As an example - See if you can decipher this one! which is the type of
rule, you didn't know I bet, we are up against and the Police will
pursue on technical rules, One thing that I know is some Police will
start looking up this sort of stuff, if they are out to get someone or
specialise in particular infringements.(that's first hand info)

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/n...08104/s35.html


lets know what you find