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#21
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Another 'Critical Mass' of cars.
On 8 Jan, 15:48, wrote:
On Jan 8, 3:42*pm, JNugent wrote: calum wrote: JNugent wrote: The incident in question *did* take place in London, didn't it? The incident did, but your assertions began with "The driver of *a* motor vehicle..." suggesting this applied to all motorists. You are wrong. I wasn't for one moment suggesting that it applied to motorists in Pakistan, Colombia, Burkino Faso or Scotland. The incident took place in England. I still maintain that the driver need not answer questions about his demeanour on the road or the start & finish points of his journey. Nor do I believe that passengers in a motor vehicle are obliged to identify themselves or explain their presence in the vehicle (with the exceptions stated in my earlier post). I'm happy to let you think what you like. Yet you seem reluctant to substantiate your claim. There is no obligation (yet) to account for yourself to the police if you are not suspected of any crime. They may ask, you needn't answer. Such naivety. The police can and will arrest you for refusing to give your name and address, and just about anything else they can dream up on the spot whether legal or not. "2.1 Giving your details Other than under road traffic and anti-social behaviour legislation, you do not commit an offence in English law by refusing to give your name and address to the police. However there are certain situations where the police may arrest you if they cannot establish your name and address, and if you are arrested and charged with an offence you will be unlikely to be granted bail unless they can establish these details. 2.2 Prior to Arrest The general rule to remember is that you never have to give your name and address to the police prior to arrest, subject to the following 3 exceptions: 1. where the police reasonably suspect you of a non-arrestable offence, and require your name and address for the service of a summons (Section 25 Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE)); 2. where you are the driver of a vehicle; 3. where the police say they suspect you of “anti-social behaviour." Then, of course, there is the plethora of anti-terrorism laws which they might also choose to use. -- UK Radical Campaigns www.zing.icom43.net One man's democracy is another man's regime. |
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#22
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Another 'Critical Mass' of cars.
Doug wrote:
On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote: Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: You see! Motorists do it too! "Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their windows driving along the embankments tooting horns. Yes but was it organized? Was it a demonstration? Was it a procession? Was it anything to do with this NG? Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as possible? I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their heads? Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a "critical mass"... Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'. What was the reason for them being there Doug? |
#23
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Another 'Critical Mass' of cars.
On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote: On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote: Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: You see! Motorists do it too! "Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their windows driving along the embankments tooting horns. Yes but was it organized? Was it a demonstration? Was it a procession? Was it anything to do with this NG? Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as possible? I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their heads? Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a "critical mass"... Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'. What was the reason for them being there Doug?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I,we just driven past West Croydon Station, there appears to be a 'crital mass' of red double decker buses there, do you think they are protesting? Francis |
#24
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Another 'Critical Mass' of cars.
On Jan 8, 4:43*pm, JNugent wrote:
"JNugent" wrote in message Calum wrote: Please cite the applicable legislation (act(s) and section(s)). JNugent wrote: Now read this very carefully, because I shall type it only once. snipped "I can't" would have done. What I was pointing out in relation to your paragraph on what the police can question drivers and passengers about was that the police may ask you just about anything but only certain specific instances *require* you to provide an answer. Your explanation could easily have misled another reader into thinking otherwise. I have no intention of descending to your level and giving the verbatim details in each case. It's all there if you search for it. Seeking evidence from the author for his assertions is standard practice in newsgroups or other debates. You are normally pretty accurate and thorough when it comes to legislation so it came as a surprise to me that you didn't substantiate your statements when asked. I throughly recommend that the next time you are stopped by the police whilst driving (whther in Scotland or south of the border), you have the courage of your convictions and refuse to utter a word, to get out of your vehicle or even to stop for very long. I would always comply with a lawful requirement by a police officer. That does not mean that I will always do anything they tell me to without question, or answer whatever questions they may ask beyond those I am obliged to answer. I'm not afraid to ask for justification for their actions. For example, 12 years ago I refused to provide a sample of breath for a breath test. I was stopped at a roadside checkpoint by a traffic motorcycle cop and asked for my driving licence, which I produced. He was stopping every 10th car or so for a routine check. During the check he asked me to provide a sample of breath for a breath test and I asked him what led him to suspect I was driving under the influence. He agreed there was nothing wrong with my manner of driving and no smell of alcohol from me or any other evidence that could lead to him to that conclusion, it was "just routine checking". As I was on my way to a business appointment and didn't want to be delayed any further, I declined and carried on with my journey. It was all very amicable. And just last month, a policeman stopped me in the street after I'd taken some architecture photographs of a building opposite the police headquarters. He was arrogant from the outset and demanded my name, address, occupation, and place of work and an explanation of why I was photographing city buildings. As he could not justify his demands I refused to give him any personal information. His attitude became aggressive and I was threatened that refusal was an offence and could lead to my arrest. I knew this to be complete ******** and I told him I would not answer. He summoned support from a senior officer who was standing nearby and I told him what happened and why I wouldn't supply my personal information. He accepted my explanation, did not support his colleague, and I went about my business of taking photographs around town. The police can often (deliberately) make it appear that you have no choice but to answer all questions and comply with certain demands, so I think it's important to be able to distinguish between when such questions and demands are lawful and create an obligation on a person and when they do not. Calum |
#25
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Another 'Critical Mass' of cars.
On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote: On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote: Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: You see! Motorists do it too! "Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their windows driving along the embankments tooting horns. Yes but was it organized? Was it a demonstration? Was it a procession? Was it anything to do with this NG? Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as possible? I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their heads? Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a "critical mass"... Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'. What was the reason for them being there Doug? I imagine to demonstrate on behalf of Palestinians. What is the reason for your question, Brim? -- Critical Mass London http://www.criticalmasslondon.org.uk "More bikes, fewer cars!". |
#26
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Another 'Critical Mass' of cars.
Doug wrote:
On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote: Doug wrote: On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote: Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: You see! Motorists do it too! "Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their windows driving along the embankments tooting horns. Yes but was it organized? Was it a demonstration? Was it a procession? Was it anything to do with this NG? Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as possible? I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their heads? Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a "critical mass"... Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'. What was the reason for them being there Doug? I imagine to demonstrate on behalf of Palestinians. What is the reason for your question, Brim? For clarification. Thank you for confirming that these people were not there for the same reason as those who participate in the monthly bicycle ride on a Friday evening thus they were not a "critical mass". |
#27
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Another 'Critical Mass' of cars.
On 11 Jan, 09:22, "Brimstone" wrote:
Doug wrote: On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote: Doug wrote: On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote: Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: You see! Motorists do it too! "Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their windows driving along the embankments tooting horns. Yes but was it organized? Was it a demonstration? Was it a procession? Was it anything to do with this NG? Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as possible? I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their heads? Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a "critical mass"... Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'. What was the reason for them being there Doug? I imagine to demonstrate on behalf of Palestinians. What is the reason for your question, Brim? For clarification. Thank you for confirming that these people were not there for the same reason as those who participate in the monthly bicycle ride on a Friday evening thus they were not a "critical mass". You don't seem to understand the term 'critical mass', which is applied to a whole load of things. A critical mass of cars is where a group of motorists decide to meet up and drive together, in much the same way as a group of cyclists might decide to cycle together. In the case of cars, the most common CM is where a group of owners of one particular make of car go on an outing in a convoy and thereby delay the rest of the traffic. BTW, on a previous point, What driver coming in from a side road is going to dare to try to ram a car convoy as some drivers do to cyclists' CMs? -- Critical Mass London http://www.criticalmasslondon.org.uk "More bikes, fewer cars!". |
#28
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Another 'Critical Mass' of cars.
Doug wrote:
On 11 Jan, 09:22, "Brimstone" wrote: Doug wrote: On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote: Doug wrote: On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote: Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: You see! Motorists do it too! "Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their windows driving along the embankments tooting horns. Yes but was it organized? Was it a demonstration? Was it a procession? Was it anything to do with this NG? Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as possible? I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their heads? Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a "critical mass"... Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'. What was the reason for them being there Doug? I imagine to demonstrate on behalf of Palestinians. What is the reason for your question, Brim? For clarification. Thank you for confirming that these people were not there for the same reason as those who participate in the monthly bicycle ride on a Friday evening thus they were not a "critical mass". You don't seem to understand the term 'critical mass', which is applied to a whole load of things. In the present context, and the only one I'm interested in, it is the group of people who meet to take a bicycle ride through London. A critical mass of cars is where a group of motorists decide to meet up and drive together, in much the same way as a group of cyclists might decide to cycle together. In the case of cars, the most common CM is where a group of owners of one particular make of car go on an outing in a convoy and thereby delay the rest of the traffic. People driving cars do not set out with the intention of delaying other road users and are usually travelling from one place to another, unlike the large group of cyclists who congregate in central London and then wander aimlessly about with the sole intention of causing delay and annoyance to other people. |
#29
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Another 'Critical Mass' of cars.
Doug wrote:
On 11 Jan, 09:22, "Brimstone" wrote: Doug wrote: On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote: Doug wrote: On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote: Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: You see! Motorists do it too! "Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their windows driving along the embankments tooting horns. Yes but was it organized? Was it a demonstration? Was it a procession? Was it anything to do with this NG? Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as possible? I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their heads? Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a "critical mass"... Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'. What was the reason for them being there Doug? I imagine to demonstrate on behalf of Palestinians. What is the reason for your question, Brim? For clarification. Thank you for confirming that these people were not there for the same reason as those who participate in the monthly bicycle ride on a Friday evening thus they were not a "critical mass". You don't seem to understand the term 'critical mass', which is applied to a whole load of things. It is applied to a load of things , it's social science term , and it seems that you have again decided to take a word with a defined meaning and humpty dumpty it into something else. A critical mass of cars is where a group of motorists decide to meet up and drive together, in much the same way as a group of cyclists might decide to cycle together. In the case of cars, the most common CM is where a group of owners of one particular make of car go on an outing in a convoy and thereby delay the rest of the traffic. I think Wikipedia explains best why your version above is wrong ... "Critical mass is a sociodynamic term to describe the existence of sufficient momentum in a social system such that the momentum becomes self-sustaining and fuels further growth." Your version doesn't match the above and it certainly doesn't match George Bliss's version. As an aside, as it's been shown that you know less than bugger all about the science behind either the enviromental or social science issues that you claim to support , could you please shut up so that those that do know something can get somehwere with their work without you ****ing away any good will that may be available? Apart from being the Sec of some obscure ranting organisations on London, what actually are your qualifications in the fields on which you pontificate? |
#30
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Another 'Critical Mass' of cars.
Marc wrote:
Doug wrote: On 11 Jan, 09:22, "Brimstone" wrote: Doug wrote: On 9 Jan, 08:54, "Brimstone" wrote: Doug wrote: On 8 Jan, 09:34, Adrian wrote: Tony Dragon gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying: You see! Motorists do it too! "Hey, while in London this evening, flashing blue lights drew my attention to about 20 cars with Palestinian flags stuck on their windows driving along the embankments tooting horns. Yes but was it organized? Was it a demonstration? Was it a procession? Was it anything to do with this NG? Was it deliberately obstructing as many other road users as possible? I wonder how many of the demonstrators stopped their cars in the middle of busy junctions, got out, and waved the cars above their heads? Still, it's good to know that 20 protestors is now regarded as a "critical mass"... Probably takes up as much road space as 100 cyclists so yes I would call a convoy of 20 congesting cars a 'critical mass'. What was the reason for them being there Doug? I imagine to demonstrate on behalf of Palestinians. What is the reason for your question, Brim? For clarification. Thank you for confirming that these people were not there for the same reason as those who participate in the monthly bicycle ride on a Friday evening thus they were not a "critical mass". You don't seem to understand the term 'critical mass', which is applied to a whole load of things. It is applied to a load of things , it's social science term , and it seems that you have again decided to take a word with a defined meaning and humpty dumpty it into something else. A critical mass of cars is where a group of motorists decide to meet up and drive together, in much the same way as a group of cyclists might decide to cycle together. In the case of cars, the most common CM is where a group of owners of one particular make of car go on an outing in a convoy and thereby delay the rest of the traffic. I think Wikipedia explains best why your version above is wrong ... "Critical mass is a sociodynamic term to describe the existence of sufficient momentum in a social system such that the momentum becomes self-sustaining and fuels further growth." Your version doesn't match the above and it certainly doesn't match George Bliss's version. As an aside, as it's been shown that you know less than bugger all about the science behind either the enviromental or social science issues that you claim to support , could you please shut up so that those that do know something can get somehwere with their work without you ****ing away any good will that may be available? I think Duhg gets told these things by random people without any background and believes them. I have a dog like that... -- John Wright I used to drive a car a lot also. Duhg Bollen. It didn't happen. The whole thing was fabricated in a movie studio by Jewish film directors using realistic dummies to gain international sympathy and thus grab and retain a chunk of Arab territory and accumulate weapons of mass destruction with help from a complicit US. Duhg Bollens view of the Holocaust. Duhg Bollen promised a report on how Vince can reduce his carbon emissions by moving in November 2007. We're still waiting. |
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