cyclist/driver relations

I'm returning home from the laundromat, bombin'
down 41st Ave and preparing to hang a right onto
Prince Edward Ave. Meanwhile a driver on
Prince Edward (to my right) is poking the nose
of his car out onto 41st. The body English of
his car suggests he wants to go straight across.
He doesn't know if I'm going to go straight or
turn right. I hand-signal for my right turn,
and the driver gives me a thank you wave and
proceeds on his merry way.

So here's my comment:
I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
I should. It's really not a good thing when
what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
Gratitude is for occasions like pulling drivers
out of burning wrecks, or helping them with a
battery boost, or changing a flat, 'n stuff
like that.

BTW, I only signal if there's somebody there
to signal /to/, who can use the information.

I'm not complaining about being appreciated. But
when turn signals are appropriate for keeping the
traffic flowing smoothly, it should just be a
matter of course to use 'em.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On 2007-07-08, Tom Keats wrote:
I'm returning home from the laundromat, bombin'
down 41st Ave and preparing to hang a right onto
Prince Edward Ave. Meanwhile a driver on
Prince Edward (to my right) is poking the nose
of his car out onto 41st. The body English of
his car suggests he wants to go straight across.
He doesn't know if I'm going to go straight or
turn right. I hand-signal for my right turn,
and the driver gives me a thank you wave and
proceeds on his merry way.

So here's my comment:
I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
I should. It's really not a good thing when
what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
Gratitude is for occasions like pulling drivers
out of burning wrecks, or helping them with a
battery boost, or changing a flat, 'n stuff
like that.

BTW, I only signal if there's somebody there
to signal /to/, who can use the information.

I'm not complaining about being appreciated. But
when turn signals are appropriate for keeping the
traffic flowing smoothly, it should just be a
matter of course to use 'em.

Amen. On the other hand (or the same one?), I used to ride with
someone who would wave thankfully at cars who yielded to his right
of way at intersections. I always wanted to ask him whether he was
surprised when drivers decided against ignoring him and running him
over.

--
Mark Shroyer
http://markshroyer.com/

On Jul 8, 2:37 pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
He doesn't know if I'm going to go straight or
turn right. I hand-signal for my right turn,
and the driver gives me a thank you wave
[....]
So here's my comment:
I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
I should. It's really not a good thing when
what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
[....]
BTW, I only signal if there's somebody there
to signal /to/, who can use the information.

That's exactly the point. My guess is: the driver was thanking you
for doing what you should do for the very reason that so many cyclists
do not (sigh). It might also be the case that he recognized the fact
that your signaling was specifically for his benefit -- which you
admit was the case. When someone does something out of courtesy for
another, it is appropriate to say "thank you", even if the courteous
action should be expected.

Note: I am not advocating that you should signal all the time. To be
honest and fair, I am the same as you: I do not signal unless it is
to give a clear indication to an anticipating driver or pedestrian of
my intentions. But unlike you, I will not complain if the driver
gives me an appreciative nod or wave, in recognition of the fact that
my actions were indeed for his benefit.

My pet peeve is when drivers see me roll up to intersections and freak
out--waving me across.

I mean, sure, it gets me across sooner, but I'm riding along expecting
them to behave in a certain (lawful) fashion, and whenever they stop and
wave me through, it disrupts my timing. It's as unnecessary as it is
unexpected.

It makes me miss London. I used to hop onto the Waterloo Bridge
roundabout in the middle of the morning and afternoon rush hours. I'd
roll up to the roundabout and take my turn at it. Nobody would freak out.
I'd get exactly as much space as I needed and no more.

It was just so nice to be regular traffic. Suburbia, U.S.A. isn't as
predictable.


--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

"Luigi de Guzman" wrote in message
...
My pet peeve is when drivers see me roll up to intersections and freak
out--waving me across.

Uh oh, I'm one of those drivers. I know how much effort it is to stop and
unclip, and how much momentum you lose, so I try and wave them through. I
also smile and wave when motorists wave me through at a four way stop.
Around here it is quite common. And yes, I know it is against the law.

A couple a weeks ago I was waiting to turn left, and a cyclist was coming
toward me from the other direction. He did the perfect left arm, bent up at
a right angle exactly at the elbow with the hand straight up, just like we
learned for a right turn signal back in our bike rodeo days. Now, if I
believed he was actually going to turn right, I could have made my left
turn. But I didn't believe him. And sure enough, I'm not sure what he
thought that signal meant, but he went straight through the intersection. I
would have T-boned him had I made the turn.

Which leaves me to wish there was bike licensing. So at least all motorists
and cyclists are on the same page. Back in the day the schools would
sponsor bike rodeos on the weekend. The local police would come out and give
instructions. If you could pass the riding test on a little course, that
included signalling and recognizing stop signs etc, you got a little card
that claimed you had a bike license. Okay, it wasn't worth anything. But I
like the idea that people are taught the rules of cycling too.

In article ,
"Cathy Kearns" writes:

"Luigi de Guzman" wrote in message
...
My pet peeve is when drivers see me roll up to intersections and freak
out--waving me across.

Uh oh, I'm one of those drivers. I know how much effort it is to stop and
unclip, and how much momentum you lose, so I try and wave them through. I
also smile and wave when motorists wave me through at a four way stop.
Around here it is quite common. And yes, I know it is against the law.

Yeah, dependent on the context of the situation (i.e:
no third parties end up being delayed,) if a driver
gives me a break, I've come to gratefully take it,
rather than being a stickler for the rules.

A couple a weeks ago I was waiting to turn left, and a cyclist was coming
toward me from the other direction. He did the perfect left arm, bent up at
a right angle exactly at the elbow with the hand straight up, just like we
learned for a right turn signal back in our bike rodeo days. Now, if I
believed he was actually going to turn right, I could have made my left
turn. But I didn't believe him. And sure enough, I'm not sure what he
thought that signal meant, but he went straight through the intersection. I
would have T-boned him had I made the turn.

That's why I so much prefer the right-arm right-turn
signal -- it isn't so ambiguous. It points to the
direction into which one intends to turn, instead of
up at the sky. The left-arm right-turn signal is a
kludge, designed for operators of wide carriages.

Which leaves me to wish there was bike licensing.

Noooo!!

Okay, I think maybe you mean some sort of cyclist
education with accreditation to show that stuff
was actually learned. I'm okay with that. As long
as it isn't mandatory.

So at least all motorists
and cyclists are on the same page. Back in the day the schools would
sponsor bike rodeos on the weekend. The local police would come out and give
instructions. If you could pass the riding test on a little course, that
included signalling and recognizing stop signs etc, you got a little card
that claimed you had a bike license. Okay, it wasn't worth anything. But I
like the idea that people are taught the rules of cycling too.

The "rules of cyling" are simply the rules of the road for
everybody, which (should) boil down to the simple, common-law
concept of Right Of Way. And signalling. And using lights
at night.

Back in the day, most minor intersections here in Vancouver
were so-called "courtesy corners" -- uncontrolled by signage,
because people understood Right Of Way. Somewhere along the
way that concept has become lost, and now practically every
minor intersection in the city is now sign-controlled.
So now, driving in Vancouver has become an exercise in
connect-the-dots (the dots being signs telling you what to
do) instead of knowing what to do before turning the ignition
key and hitting the throttle pedal.

I bet I know more about the rules of the road than most drivers
in this city. And I've never even driven a car. But the
rules of the road were inculcated into me and my peers by
kith 'n kin when I first learned to ride as a child back
in the '50s. Things have changed or become lost since then.

Oh well. Nobody bothers to form an orderly queue at the
bus stop or fast food restaurant anymore, either. Men
no longer doff their hats indoors, and third-trimester
pregnant women are hard-pressed to be offered a seat on
a crowded bus.

Like Bob Dylan said, the times they are a-changin'.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 23:57:35 +0000, Cathy Kearns wrote:


Uh oh, I'm one of those drivers. I know how much effort it is to stop and
unclip, and how much momentum you lose, so I try and wave them through. I
also smile and wave when motorists wave me through at a four way stop.
Around here it is quite common. And yes, I know it is against the law.

I don't want your sympathy or your pity. I'm pitiful enough as it is.
All I want is to be able to look at a car in an intersection and be able
to predict what that car is going to do. Whenever you go out of your way
to be kind, you mess with my head.

Would I love a world where all motorists yielded to cyclists? Hell yeah.
Do I live in that world? Not by a long shot. I don't want to have to
roll up to the four-way stop or roundabout and have to wonder how
charitable the other road users are going to be. I need to be able to get
to that stop, roll up, and tell myself "OK, my turn after she makes the
turn. She made the turn. My turn!"

The suburbs are awful for this sort of thing. In denser cities, traffic
volume is so high and speeds so low that this isn't even an issue. On the
mean city streets, I can get into a groove pretty easily. But the
suburbanites in Suburbans kill me with kindness, literally.


A couple a weeks ago I was waiting to turn left, and a cyclist was coming
toward me from the other direction. He did the perfect left arm, bent up at
a right angle exactly at the elbow with the hand straight up, just like we
learned for a right turn signal back in our bike rodeo days. Now, if I
believed he was actually going to turn right, I could have made my left
turn. But I didn't believe him. And sure enough, I'm not sure what he
thought that signal meant, but he went straight through the intersection. I
would have T-boned him had I made the turn.

Here's a question: was he a liquorbike rider or a guy in full club getup?
Here's another question: do you assume that those of us in liquorbike
gear are so incompetent that we need to be waved through?


Which leaves me to wish there was bike licensing. So at least all motorists
and cyclists are on the same page. Back in the day the schools would
sponsor bike rodeos on the weekend. The local police would come out and give
instructions. If you could pass the riding test on a little course, that
included signalling and recognizing stop signs etc, you got a little card
that claimed you had a bike license. Okay, it wasn't worth anything. But I
like the idea that people are taught the rules of cycling too.

There are bike rodeos in my town during suitable civic gatherings--the
Independence Day festivities included a bike rodeo in a local park.
Especially cool, since the cops have a bicycle patrol unit. I should have
gone over to see what it was about, now that I think about it.

If the bike rodeo assumed you'd be riding from point A to point B, then
yes, I'm totally for bike rodeos. Unfortunately, kids' bike safety
instruction these days boils down to "wear your helmet"--with
supplementary fretting from Mom about not playing in traffic.

-Luigi

--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

Tom Keats wrote:
:: I'm returning home from the laundromat, bombin'
:: down 41st Ave and preparing to hang a right onto
:: Prince Edward Ave. Meanwhile a driver on
:: Prince Edward (to my right) is poking the nose
:: of his car out onto 41st. The body English of
:: his car suggests he wants to go straight across.
:: He doesn't know if I'm going to go straight or
:: turn right. I hand-signal for my right turn,
:: and the driver gives me a thank you wave and
:: proceeds on his merry way.
::

You should be happy that he acknowledged you instead of finding something
else to bitch about on usenet.


:: So here's my comment:
:: I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
:: I should. It's really not a good thing when
:: what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
:: Gratitude is for occasions like pulling drivers
:: out of burning wrecks, or helping them with a
:: battery boost, or changing a flat, 'n stuff
:: like that.
::
:: BTW, I only signal if there's somebody there
:: to signal /to/, who can use the information.
::
:: I'm not complaining about being appreciated. But
:: when turn signals are appropriate for keeping the
:: traffic flowing smoothly, it should just be a
:: matter of course to use 'em.
::
::
:: cheers,
:: Tom
::
:: --
:: Nothing is safe from me.
:: I'm really at:
:: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On 2007-07-08, Cathy Kearns wrote:
A couple a weeks ago I was waiting to turn left, and a cyclist was coming
toward me from the other direction. He did the perfect left arm, bent up at
a right angle exactly at the elbow with the hand straight up, just like we
learned for a right turn signal back in our bike rodeo days. Now, if I
believed he was actually going to turn right, I could have made my left
turn. But I didn't believe him. And sure enough, I'm not sure what he
thought that signal meant, but he went straight through the intersection. I
would have T-boned him had I made the turn.

A cyclist I was following (I was on my bike about 100 feet back) did that
too. Stuck his left arm up in what I thought was a retro right turn
signal and then went straight through the intersection.

I'm now worried that this signal now means something other than it used
to but no one told me.

Dennis Ferguson

On Jul 8, 5:37 pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:


So here's my comment:
I don't need to be thanked just for doing what
I should. It's really not a good thing when
what should be ordinary becomes extraordinary.
Gratitude is for occasions like pulling drivers
out of burning wrecks, or helping them with a
battery boost, or changing a flat, 'n stuff
like that.

Oh, I don't have any problem with a little excess gratitude. "Thank
you"s are one of those things that make things nicer in all societies.

It's like our special thanks to the nice waiter at the little Italian
cafe last month. We didn't need to; he was only doing his job. But
he was doing it particularly well, and he appreciated being
acknowledged.

And when we returned the next evening, he treated us to free lemon
liquer. Everyone was happier as a result of that thank you!

- Frank Krygowski