Bike adjustments

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 7:13:30 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what? My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen, what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

-- Jay Beattie.

Mythology Jay. Cycling is rife with it and you know that.

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:02:37 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 8:20:33 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 23:03:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

Lou

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?

Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.


Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements (left and right footlength ???) which resulted in 19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of 73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build (parts) but frame will not be custom. I just wanted the right size to begin with (over-the counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem. These are good guys btw but they soon found out that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx, Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying now which made me part of an American family. How about that for marketing ;-)

Lou.

It used to be much simpler. Buy a bike that you could stand over; set
the seat height and position; set the stem position; ride the bike and
make any more changes.

It still works for me :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Yes I remembered that time, where all frames had horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to choose from and of course that awful quill stem. Most of the time people rode to large frames. That time passed thank god.

Lou

And those saddles were absolutely horrible. A leather saddle that would take a year of heavy riding to break in or a Regal saddle that would chaff you between the legs so badly that you could hardly walk after a long ride.

On 12/8/2019 9:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:02:37 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 8:20:33 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 23:03:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

Lou

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?

Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.


Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements (left and right footlength ???) which resulted in 19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of 73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build (parts) but frame will not be custom. I just wanted the right size to begin with (over-the counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem. These are good guys btw but they soon found out that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx, Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying now which made me part of an American family. How about that for marketing ;-)

Lou.

It used to be much simpler. Buy a bike that you could stand over; set
the seat height and position; set the stem position; ride the bike and
make any more changes.

It still works for me :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Yes I remembered that time, where all frames had horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to choose from and of course that awful quill stem. Most of the time people rode to large frames. That time passed thank god.

Lou

And those saddles were absolutely horrible. A leather saddle that would take a year of heavy riding to break in or a Regal saddle that would chaff you between the legs so badly that you could hardly walk after a long ride.

Those were terrible, terrible times! Oh, the agony bicyclists endured!

The only people on bikes back then must have been the crazies and the
masochists. Thank God the marketing industry has saved us!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 1:00:40 PM UTC+1, sms wrote:
On 12/7/2019 3:28 PM, wrote:

snip

Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

No.

It used to be that stock frames came in 2cm increments from 46 cm to 64
cm so for most riders it wasn't necessary to order a custom frame. You
might need to change the stem reach a little but you could get very
close to an ideal fit unless you had short legs and long arms or
vice-versa. When I bought my touring bicycle, a 57 cm would have been
ideal but I had to choose between a 56cm and a 58cm. At the time, the
conventional wisdom was to go 1cm up for touring bicycles and 1cm down
for road bicycles, so I went up. That was fine when I bought it, but 34
years later it's too big for me.

I have to disagree with you. Most frames come in 7 sizes now. That is not different than in the past. The frame I am looking at comes in 50-52-54-55-56-58-60 cm effective top tube length. I'm about medium so I can choose between 54-55-56 cm. Most fitting programs advice a 56 cm frame. Most of the time I end up with a one size smaller frame. I'm still quite flexible in my back (still can lay my hands flat on the floor standing up) so a lower handlebar is not much of a problem, within limits of course. It is the reach I find uncomfortable. After 34 years you entitled to new frame I would say ;-)

Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
fit─kind of, sort of. It's like the old Midas Muffler commercial where
the customer asks "do you have a muffler that will fit my car" and the
mechanic answers "fit? we'll make it fit" and proceeds to use a
collection of adapters to create something that can be used.

I'm a big fan of long head-tubes and over time the head tube got longer that is good. Look at my Litespeed which has a relative short head tube


This approach has benefited custom manufacturers. One short friend of
mine ended up with a beautiful custom titanium frame road bicycle.
Because a triple crankset is preferred in this area, especially for
older riders, she had to go with a Shimano 105 group.

You have to have quite strange proportions to really need a custom frame these days, but it can happen. Friend of mine is short and has a long torso. He is always struggling finding a frame.

Lou

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 5:20:47 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/8/2019 9:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:02:37 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 8:20:33 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 23:03:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

Lou

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?

Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.


Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements (left and right footlength ???) which resulted in 19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of 73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build (parts) but frame will not be custom. I just wanted the right size to begin with (over-the counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem. These are good guys btw but they soon found out that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx, Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying now which made me part of an American family. How about that for marketing ;-)

Lou.

It used to be much simpler. Buy a bike that you could stand over; set
the seat height and position; set the stem position; ride the bike and
make any more changes.

It still works for me :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Yes I remembered that time, where all frames had horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to choose from and of course that awful quill stem. Most of the time people rode to large frames. That time passed thank god.

Lou

And those saddles were absolutely horrible. A leather saddle that would take a year of heavy riding to break in or a Regal saddle that would chaff you between the legs so badly that you could hardly walk after a long ride..

Those were terrible, terrible times! Oh, the agony bicyclists endured!

The only people on bikes back then must have been the crazies and the
masochists. Thank God the marketing industry has saved us!


--
- Frank Krygowski

Yes one thing I thank the marketing department for is that they came up with a lot more choices in saddles.

Lou

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:00:40 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 12/7/2019 3:28 PM, wrote:

snip

Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

No.

It used to be that stock frames came in 2cm increments from 46 cm to 64
cm so for most riders it wasn't necessary to order a custom frame. You
might need to change the stem reach a little but you could get very
close to an ideal fit unless you had short legs and long arms or
vice-versa. When I bought my touring bicycle, a 57 cm would have been
ideal but I had to choose between a 56cm and a 58cm. At the time, the
conventional wisdom was to go 1cm up for touring bicycles and 1cm down
for road bicycles, so I went up. That was fine when I bought it, but 34
years later it's too big for me.

Yes, stock frames came in 2cm increments with often dreadful "scaling up" for larger frames that ended up with too short top tubes. Even after the LeMond longer top tube revolution, Colnago steel frames in 1994 in the 63cm size (my size) had TTs that were a full 1 -1.5 centimeter (not mm)shorter than current sizing conventions. https://saarf00.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/21.jpg It was more likely that you would need a custom frame back then than now.

Also, back in the day, it was all obscure knowledge and mysticism about how one should fit on a bike -- flat back, hump back, KOP or not, etc., etc. There were no fit kits and master fitters and all the things that lead to prescriptive size and position that are popular today. Even custom builders back then tended to make bikes with shortish top tubes.

I had five custom steel frames built for me (ultimately all broken or stolen). When I cracked a head tube lug on my racing bike in 1984, I needed a quick replacement and found a first generation Cannondale at a local store. It fit great, and I never looked back. On a lark,many years later, I re-brazed by broken racing frame and brought it back from the dead. Even with a 13cm stem, the TT was too short for my tastes. I couldn't imagine how I raced that thing and loved it.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:03:34 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

Lou

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?

Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way.. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.


Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements (left and right footlength ???) which resulted in 19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of 73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build (parts) but frame will not be custom. I just wanted the right size to begin with (over-the counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem. These are good guys btw but they soon found out that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx, Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying now which made me part of an American family. How about that for marketing ;-)

Lou.

What brand?

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 6:11:23 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:03:34 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

Lou

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?

Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.


Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements (left and right footlength ???) which resulted in 19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of 73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build (parts) but frame will not be custom. I just wanted the right size to begin with (over-the counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem. These are good guys btw but they soon found out that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx, Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying now which made me part of an American family. How about that for marketing ;-)

Lou.

What brand?

-- Jay Beattie.

I think John and Frank can't handle it ;-) American made and it replaces my Litespeed as bad weather bike and for light off road use. You figure it out ;-).

Lou

On 12/8/2019 8:32 AM, wrote:

snip

I have to disagree with you. Most frames come in 7 sizes now. That is not different than in the past. The frame I am looking at comes in 50-52-54-55-56-58-60 cm effective top tube length. I'm about medium so I can choose between 54-55-56 cm. Most fitting programs advice a 56 cm frame. Most of the time I end up with a one size smaller frame. I'm still quite flexible in my back (still can lay my hands flat on the floor standing up) so a lower handlebar is not much of a problem, within limits of course. It is the reach I find uncomfortable. After 34 years you entitled to new frame I would say ;-)

You made it sound like you were getting a custom frame made. Yes, 7
sizes (I often see only 5 or 6 sizes listed with 3 cm differences) is
sufficient and various component changes (stems, seat tubes, head tubes,
and extenders can be used to get an optimal fit.

For me, my "sport touring" Specialized 56cm is fine for the road. I
don't really have a gravel bike at this time. I guess the closest thing
is my son's old bike that I put some Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires on.
Maybe I'll get some of Schwalbe's Hurricane gravel tires but they offer
less protection than the Marathon Plus. If I buy any more bicycles I'd
need to also hire a lawyer.

On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:00:35 -0800, sms
wrote:

Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
fit?kind of, sort of.

Agreed. That sort of works:
https://www.thegeekycyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/An-Adult-on-A-Kids-Bike-1024x865.jpg

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558