Italian/steel frames need more prep?

I got my new MTB frame in the mail yesterday, and the first thing I noticed
was that it was totally clean. Spotless. Greaseless. Honed, sparkling,
radiant. The BB shell was clean with no paint in the threads, the headtube
the same, and the dropouts properly prepped with no paint where the axle
sits. This was a $200 MTB frame from Taiwan.

Now, flashback to two weeks ago. A customer's crash-replacement
Made-in-Italy Bianchi Pinella frame ($1800 retail) comes in for me to build
up, and although there's no problems on painted areas, there's virtually no
attention to detail when it comes to the bottom bracket or headset! There's
slag strewn everywhere inside the BB (even bits I can break off with my
fingernail), there's bubbling on the opposing side of the welds, it's
totally unfinished with paint all up in the threads, and the headtube looks
plain discolored and ugly.

This was a steel frame, so I don't know if the rules governing steel are
different from aluminum, but upon first look, I would have been ashamed if I
were a framebuilder and let one go out like that. Sure there's prep
required on the bike shop end, but can there really be so little workmanship
pride on these high-end frames? What am I missing here?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
I got my new MTB frame in the mail yesterday, and the first thing I
noticed was that it was totally clean. Spotless. Greaseless.

Oh and the MTB frame didn't smell like anything, it was so clean. Those of
us that work at shops know how bad it is when a bike comes in all stinky.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
Now, flashback to two weeks ago. A customer's crash-replacement
Made-in-Italy Bianchi Pinella frame ($1800 retail) comes in for me to
build up, and although there's no problems on painted areas, there's
virtually no attention to detail when it comes to the bottom bracket or
headset! There's slag strewn everywhere inside the BB (even bits I can
break off with my fingernail), there's bubbling on the opposing side of
the welds, it's totally unfinished with paint all up in the threads, and
the headtube looks plain discolored and ugly.
Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example: I have
a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking, whilst a
cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer the italian
one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con amore".

Just open the hood of an Italian car and the one of a German car and
compare. This is a cultural thing.

Greets, Derk

In article ,
Derk wrote:

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
Now, flashback to two weeks ago. A customer's crash-replacement
Made-in-Italy Bianchi Pinella frame ($1800 retail) comes in for me to
build up, and although there's no problems on painted areas, there's
virtually no attention to detail when it comes to the bottom bracket or
headset! There's slag strewn everywhere inside the BB (even bits I can
break off with my fingernail), there's bubbling on the opposing side of
the welds, it's totally unfinished with paint all up in the threads, and
the headtube looks plain discolored and ugly.
Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example: I have
a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking, whilst a
cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer the italian
one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con amore".

Just open the hood of an Italian car and the one of a German car and
compare. This is a cultural thing.

Greets, Derk

Derk, you know why the Germans don't bother to make the stuff under the
hood look pretty? Because nobody ever has to look there.

....wish this was true, since my mildly demented '98 VW Beetle is
displaying its check engine light as we speak. A few months ago, the
driver door nearly spontaneously fell off after two hinge bolts broke.
Don't ask me how that ever possibly happens.

....then again, New Beetles are hecho en Mexico, for what that's worth.

....then again, I'm not sure most national generalizations hold up. The
under-hood area of the 1st-gen Porsche 928 is very pretty (spider-like
intake manifold with wiggly runners), while there is a vast succession
of Alfas and Fiats with boring and ugly engines in them.

ObBike: given how fast I ride, sometimes in traffic, I vote for
soullessness. Those vampire-and-zombie constructed frames from Taiwan
tend not to be exciting in such circumstances. Who knows when the amore
may all run out of a crucial lug, leaving your butt alfresco con le pave?

....then again, I have a perfectly respectable Pinarello and Bianchi in
the shed.

....then again, the Bianchi was made in Japan.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example:
I have a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking,
whilst a cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer
the italian one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con
amore".

Derk, it's funny you mention that. I am actually doing a senior mech
engineering design project involving espresso machines. You're actually the
target group that I'm designing for. Could you contact me off-list at
phil_lee at hotmail dot com?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example:
I have a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking,
whilst a cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer
the italian one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con
amore".

Derk, it's funny you mention that. I am actually doing a senior mech
engineering design project involving espresso machines. You're actually the
target group that I'm designing for. Could you contact me off-list at
phil_lee at hotmail dot com?

Phil, baby, there is an entire subculture of hopped-up espresso machine
DIYers. Try alt.rec.coffee or CoffeeGeek. I have an Italian machine
that is quite beautiful inside and out. Any leak was cured with a
gasket or repositioning a set screw.

As for Italian steel frames, some are beautiful inside and out -- and
some are not. It has been that way forever. Back in the '70s, most
any domestic custom made frame was cleaner inside and better alligned
than most of thel Italian small-production frames (Colnago, etc.).
But, then again, those Italian frames had soul! The American frames
were nicely brazed and straight (more durable paint, too) -- but
souless. -- Jay Beattie.

In article K3%Wf.4014$fS6.209@dukeread11,
"Phil, Squid-in-Training"
wrote:

Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example:
I have a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking,
whilst a cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer
the italian one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con
amore".

Derk, it's funny you mention that. I am actually doing a senior mech
engineering design project involving espresso machines. You're actually the
target group that I'm designing for. Could you contact me off-list at
phil_lee at hotmail dot com?

Hey, I'd totally love to design an espresso machine for a target group
that doesn't mind if it leaks.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article K3%Wf.4014$fS6.209@dukeread11,
"Phil, Squid-in-Training"
wrote:

Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example:
I have a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking,
whilst a cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer
the italian one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con
amore".

Derk, it's funny you mention that. I am actually doing a senior mech
engineering design project involving espresso machines. You're actually the
target group that I'm designing for. Could you contact me off-list at
phil_lee at hotmail dot com?

Hey, I'd totally love to design an espresso machine for a target group
that doesn't mind if it leaks.


Two ideal demographics:

The Jaguar Owners Club

The Lotus Owners Club

On 30 Mar 2006 20:13:34 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
wrote:


Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article K3%Wf.4014$fS6.209@dukeread11,
"Phil, Squid-in-Training"
wrote:

Though this is an extreme case,the principle of it is normal.Example:
I have a 500 Euro italian Espresso machine here that'salways leaking,
whilst a cheap german machine I have too is neatly finished. I prefer
the italian one, though, because it has a "soul". It was made "con
amore".

Derk, it's funny you mention that. I am actually doing a senior mech
engineering design project involving espresso machines. You're actually the
target group that I'm designing for. Could you contact me off-list at
phil_lee at hotmail dot com?

Hey, I'd totally love to design an espresso machine for a target group
that doesn't mind if it leaks.


Two ideal demographics:

The Jaguar Owners Club

The Lotus Owners Club

Don't forget Triumph and BSA owners.

Hell, since all these guys have been dealing with Lucas equipment, it won't have
to be all that reliable electrically either.

Ron

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 00:57:28 -0500, "Phil, Squid-in-Training"
wrote:

I got my new MTB frame in the mail yesterday, and the first thing I noticed
was that it was totally clean. Spotless. Greaseless. Honed, sparkling,
radiant. The BB shell was clean with no paint in the threads, the headtube
the same, and the dropouts properly prepped with no paint where the axle
sits. This was a $200 MTB frame from Taiwan.

Now, flashback to two weeks ago. A customer's crash-replacement
Made-in-Italy Bianchi Pinella frame ($1800 retail) comes in for me to build
up, and although there's no problems on painted areas, there's virtually no
attention to detail when it comes to the bottom bracket or headset! There's
slag strewn everywhere inside the BB (even bits I can break off with my
fingernail), there's bubbling on the opposing side of the welds, it's
totally unfinished with paint all up in the threads, and the headtube looks
plain discolored and ugly.


That's "old world craftmanship" and "character" for you. Not some
soulless thing from Asia.

JT



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